Does anyone know of any VST based amp modelers? I'm using Cubase SX on a PC under Windows 2000. I normally just run the line out of my Marshall to line in of the Audigy card but am getting tired of lugging the amp back and forth to practice. I could just pop for a little 35W version of the amp I have for home recording, but a VST that would suffice would be so much easier. Not to mention take less room in my ever so small spare room studio.

Even if it's not VST based, something that could simulate or even process guitar then run that output to Cubase somehow.

I guess one of the issues becomes how to get the signal of the guitar up to line level before it goes into Cubase? Would my DOD or BOSS pedals bring the signal up to line level? I don't want to dump any more cash into hardware, I'd rather put it towards some decent software.

Any thoughts or ideas would be great.

Thanks.

iZotope Trash is awesome but it's only a DXi.

If your only using VST you probabaly want Amplitube.

A couple of free amp modeling VST effects are MDA Combo (www.mda-vst.com) and Simulanalog Guitar Suite (http://www.simulanalog.org/guitarsuite.htm). I use both of 'em all the time...

As for bringing your guitar up to line level, you'll need a preamp or DI (direct injection) box of some kind... I've heard the Art Tube MP is okay, and the Presonus BlueTube... folks rave about the Countryman "Type 85" DI box, but it lists for $230.

I don't have it yet, but I recently ordered a Studio Projects VTB-1 preamp... you can find it for $130, and reviews are stellar... it's a high quality mic preamp that also works as a DI box.

If you want to go cheaper, head over to musiciansfriend.com and search for "direct box"... they list a bunch of 'em for $25-40.

-Garret

Before you buy any amp sims, try the SimulAnalog stuff. If you're running Tracktion, get StereoPanner because it's mono only.

For getting the sound into your computer, if you have SPDIF in, get Presonus DigiTube. Tube sound, EQ and digital out! It's excellent.

Amplitube and Steinberg's WARP are both fairly good amp models,but both fairly expensive.The SimulAnalog models are great for the price(free!).
Your pedals are still instrument level,and they'd add to the noise floor.An alternative to the direct box routine is put EMG pickups in your guitar(the low-Z ones,not their high-Z line).They work really well through a mic or line input on your card without an external box.
ew

Well, I downloaded the free ones mentioned but there isn't enough signal coming out of the guitar to drive anything.

I went looking around for DI boxes and found several under $30. All of the ones I have found though have a 1/4" for the input and an XLR for the balanced output. This makes sense if I'm going into a mixer, but would prefer a 1/4" out to go into the Audigy card's mic input. Any thoughts on a DI box that has a 1/4" output or does that simply defeat the purpose of the balanced output? If the out was a 1/4" TRS couldn't that be a balanced connection? Get an adapter from Radio shack perhaps? Are XLR to 1/4" cables readily available?

Someone mentioned a preamp, perhaps that's the way to go? What's the difference between a preamp and a DI box?

The card does have SPDIF in/out but I would think SPDIF would drive the price up.

I want to keep the price down otherwise I can just go out and buy a Line 6 modeler or a new amp entirely. The little 35W version of my Marshall is only $239 and has all the effects (DFX-35).

youngd wrote:

Well, I downloaded the free ones mentioned but there isn't enough signal coming out of the guitar to drive anything. I went looking around for DI boxes and found several under $30. All of the ones I have found though have a 1/4" for the input and an XLR for the balanced output. This makes sense if I'm going into a mixer, but would prefer a 1/4" out to go into the Audigy card's mic input.

Buy an XLR to 1/4 inch adapter! Try Radio Shack or your local equivalent.

youngd wrote:

Well, I downloaded the free ones mentioned but there isn't enough signal coming out of the guitar to drive anything.

Try going in to the mic input on your sound card instead of the line input... you should get plenty of level (though the sound quality will be lousy because of the impedance mismatch). If you can, go through one of your stomp boxes first... that might buffer some of the impedance problems.

This stuff is very confusing, and I'm not sure I understand it all.. but as I see it, the key thing a DI box does is take care of the impedance mismatch... it allows you to hook up your guitar to your sound card , without the tone of the guitar being affected. The traditional DI box has 1/4" guitar cable input and an XLR output...

If you have a normal sound card with 1/8" inputs, you'd need a XLR -> 1/4" transformer, then a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter. Both of those are available at radioshack for not too much cash. You'll still need to hook in to the "microphone" input of your sound card, because the output level of a DI box is basically microphone-level. If you hunt around enough, you should be able to find a DI box with XLR and 1/4" outputs so you can skip the radio shack transformer...

A preamp is capable of taking a microphone-level signal and raising it up to line level... unless you already have a super fab sound card, this should make a big difference in sound quality, because the mic preamps built in to most sound cards are terrible.

So there are two separate problems with recording guitars direct... the impedance mismatch, and the level mismatch... The Sound Projects VTB-1 preamp I ordered should solve both for me. It takes 1/4" unbalanced or XLR balanced inputs, has switchable impedance matching, and has 1/4" and XLR outputs at line level...

One nice thing about getting a preamp is you can also use it to drive a condenser microphone... that's what you'll want for recording vocals or acoustic guitar...

Hope this helps...
-Garret

not sure EXACTLY how relevant this is [im not a guitarist] but just fyi -

i have successfully recorded guiter in the past - running a mates guitar directly into my audiosport quattro [no amp or anything] i get a very strong clean signal - i record it dry - then just whack this .wav through whatever modelling effects plugins i have [the free simulanalog ones are great]

does my quattro do something clever here im not aware of [i thought it was just a straightforward i /o box with no preamps] ???

or is this a dead simple way of recording guitar [i just took what to me was the obvious approach - ie - plug the thing in and play] ???

slainte rob

Thanks for the info, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around some of the most basic concepts, impedence, levels, etc. The sound card I have is the Creative Audigy 2 Platinum EX. It's one of Creative's higher end cards but is by no means a professional sound board. It does support ASIO though which is what I was after along with more inputs, and all around $200.

The back of the board has the typical 1/8" sound card connections, however most of them are to drive the 5.1 surround sound (which I don't use). It has an external audio interface (connected via 50 pin cable) that takes up a drive slot just under my CD-ROM. That interface has SPDIF in/out, optical in/out, MIDI in/out, line in 2 and mic in 2. The line in is the RCA type connectors while the mic in is a 1/4".

I tried the idea of the mic in and get pretty much the same results. When Cubase is running and I really hammer on my strat I can barely see a line or two on in the mixer. I added some VST's to the channel and started hearing sound but the noise level sounded like a jet flying over. Adding a chorus or flange pedal in the stream didn't make things any better, in fact there was more background noise. But I guess that's to be expected since everything is cranked up to 11 anyways.

Since this is way off the topic I started with anyways, I'll ask: are there any decent tutorials out on the net that deal with the fundamentals of audio? Like what is impedence, what impedence levels are instruments at, what exactly is "line level", etc?

I called the local music store and they have a DI there with both XLR and 1/4" balanced outputs for $39.99 so I'm going to start with that. This is really only for me to practice and record with at home, if I need a better sound I'll just lug the amp around. I did find some schematics on how to build a DI box but all the transformers I could find cost double what a DI box pre-made would run.

You can record guitar directly into the quattro but the sound is a bit poo. If you use distortion it doesnt matter that much but for clean its not the best. Get some sort of tube pre-amp and hear the difference.

I am still cooking on an old SBlive. The mic input is to be avoided like the plague. Dunno if it's improved but I wouldn't use the mic input on a cheap card- get a good preamp, or go the di box route. I use an ART tube-mp which is quiet and warm sounding.

Gah!

Go get yourself a Sansamp gt2 off of ebay for around $100.

Then spend another $75. on an eight channel beringher mixer.

Then go to radio shack and get the approprite adapters to go from 1/4" to your souncards little 1/8" port.

Take the two sends on the mixer and connect them to your soundcard's input. Then, anything you want to record you just send to one of those aux'es.

Plug your monitor speakers into the mixers main outs. Plug your soundcard's line outs into two of the mixer channels.

Plug the Sansamp into the another channel on the board.

This way, everything stays set up, you'll never have to see the back of your computer again, and you'll have lovely direct guitar sounds.

-S.

Sleek Month wrote:

Gah! Go get yourself a Sansamp gt2 off of ebay for around $100. Then spend another $75. on an eight channel beringher mixer. Then go to radio shack and get the approprite adapters to go from 1/4" to your souncards little 1/8" port. Take the two sends on the mixer and connect them to your soundcard's input. Then, anything you want to record you just send to one of those aux'es. Plug your monitor speakers into the mixers main outs. Plug your soundcard's line outs into two of the mixer channels. Plug the Sansamp into the another channel on the board. This way, everything stays set up, you'll never have to see the back of your computer again, and you'll have lovely direct guitar sounds. -S.

I was going to suggest something like this too. I use a POD XT for some things and a little Tech 21 Trademark 10 (the best solid state practice/recording amp money can buy, IMO- I liked it so much I bought a Trademark 120 for gigging) for the rest. I've gotten some HUGE guitar tones by sticking a mike in front of the TM10 and running the SansAmp out into the board and mixing them.

If you have a multi effects board then you can run the output of it straight into the soundcard. I run the outputs of my cheapy Korg A5 into a SBLive. I usually set the A5 to bypass and do all the effects using VSTi.

I use either my mixer (ancient old Yamaha) or ART Tube MP to get electric guitar into my PC.I dunno how Exp4 can get any kind of usable signal going straight into a soundcard-I sure can't going into my Layla.

To get back to the original subject,Trash can't be beat (works fine in SX) if your PC is up to it.Amplitube comes in second,IMO.

Quote:

I use a POD XT for some things and a little Tech 21 Trademark 10 (the best solid state practice/recording amp money can buy, IMO- I liked it so much I bought a Trademark 120 for gigging)

Word.

I loves my Gt2, and I also have a trademark 60, which I really only use direct. I loves my tech 21.

The coolest thing, though is the trademark 300. I played through it at Namm this year...300 watts, and three fully independant channels, all in a nice "head case"...but you can take it out of the case and put it in a 3 space rack!

Very cool...haven't seen 'em in stores yet, though.

Sorry for the hijack.

-S.

lwg wrote:

Sleek Month wrote: Gah! Go get yourself a Sansamp gt2 off of ebay for around $100. Then spend another $75. on an eight channel beringher mixer. Then go to radio shack and get the approprite adapters to go from 1/4" to your souncards little 1/8" port. Take the two sends on the mixer and connect them to your soundcard's input. Then, anything you want to record you just send to one of those aux'es. Plug your monitor speakers into the mixers main outs. Plug your soundcard's line outs into two of the mixer channels. Plug the Sansamp into the another channel on the board. This way, everything stays set up, you'll never have to see the back of your computer again, and you'll have lovely direct guitar sounds. -S. I was going to suggest something like this too. I use a POD XT for some things and a little Tech 21 Trademark 10 (the best solid state practice/recording amp money can buy, IMO- I liked it so much I bought a Trademark 120 for gigging) for the rest. I've gotten some HUGE guitar tones by sticking a mike in front of the TM10 and running the SansAmp out into the board and mixing them.

Well, that's several votes for the Tech 21 gear. Guess I'm going to have to check them out. They seem a little more cost effective than the Line 6 stuff I've tried at Sam Ash. For $100 it's hard to go wrong, I mean that's only double what you'd pay for a decent distortion pedal and you seem to get a whole lot more. From what I read on their site the SansAmp GT2 can be connected directly to the line in on the soundboard to start with correct?

How would you chain the TM10 and the SansAmp? You split the guitar out to both devices or run the send from the TM10 to the SansAmp or something? I have found in the past that mixing a couple of amp sounds produces some HUGE results.

Picked up a DI and that certainly fixed the level problem. The free plugins sound pretty good, but it is missing that "warmth" that a tube amp can deliver. If that little SansAmp can produce something even remotely close to a decent Marshall tone I'd be happy.

I do in fact have one of the 8 channel beringher mixers, it's just being used for the practice PA and I can't steal it back a the moment. Maybe I should just bite the bullet and purchase another one. It would certainly add a level of flexibility to my home setup that I'm missing right now.

I've tried the demo for TRASH and I wasn't impressed. Although, to be fair, I should state that I'm not looking for vintage tone and TRASH seems to be geared towards vintage sounds. All of the metal sounds from TRASH didn't really sound good to me. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong with an example MP3 file. I am really looking for a good
VST amp simultation since I live in a condo and can't bring in real amps.

I do stand corrected on Amplitube. I tried it again and built some sounds from scratch without using the presets and got some good tones. Before I was only looking at the presets, which seem too heavy in effects - taking away some of the edge.

Right now I'm stuck with POD 1.2 (not even on the 2.0 or XT series) until I can find the sound that sells me. Yes, I realize the guitar and players ability makes alot of difference too. Here's 20 seconds of playing with POD to try to develop my sound:

http://24.148.43.179/mp3/projecta_frayd_(ignition).mp3

Mu

Quote:

Well, that's several votes for the Tech 21 gear. Guess I'm going to have to check them out. They seem a little more cost effective than the Line 6 stuff

The main thing I like about the T21 stuff is that it has more presence than pod. I could never get in-your-face from pod.

Quote:

How would you chain the TM10 and the SansAmp? You split the guitar out to both devices or run the send from the TM10 to the SansAmp or something?

Yup. Then hard pan. You'll get something that's huge. Great for when you want one thick track. (I'm a multitracker, myself...)

Quote:

If that little SansAmp can produce something even remotely close to a decent Marshall tone I'd be happy.

It will. One word of advice, though. The sansamp has no whistles and bells, it's just an amp sim, so it doesn't always sound as large on it's own as some of the pod stuff (The TM60 does, though ), but in the track it always sounds great.

Quote:

I do in fact have one of the 8 channel beringher mixers, it's just being used for the practice PA and I can't steal it back a the moment. Maybe I should just bite the bullet and purchase another one.

It's a must. You won't regret it. Just the fact that you do all of your patching at the mixer instead of behind the f**cking computer will be worth it. The best, though, is the ability to leave everything set up so you can record instantly, whenever you want. Yay!

Quote:

Right now I'm stuck with POD 1.2 (not even on the 2.0 or XT series) until I can find the sound that sells me. Yes, I realize the guitar and players ability makes alot of difference too.

That's pretty large...the attack isn't that present, though, and it seems a little muffled, which are my two problems with pod...

Here's some guitar from the Trademark 60, direct. If you like this, you can get one for around the price of a pod off of ebay...

http://www.phreque.com/~sleek/down.mp3

-S.

Mumcat some of those multiband compression distortions in Trash sound pretty damn good. I think you could get some really powerfull metal sounds with them if you spent a bit of time with it. I admit i wasnt blown away with trash at first but it has got some amazing sounds under the bonnet. I think the interface is a little wierd but i must admit i want it now. I am guessing but I imagine it will be better for metal than amplitube.

1 more vote for Tech21
but remember
that those are distortion units (except combos of course), while PODs do also cabinet emulations

as for recording directly into line in of card...
i did it in ancient days and i managed
but once it compared it to what gets recorded thru DIbox there was no way back. night and day...

michu wrote:

1 more vote for Tech21 but remember that those are distortion units (except combos of course), while PODs do also cabinet emulations

Eh? The Sansamps do cabinet emulation- they're DI boxes, after all. So do their combo amps.

Tech 21?

There is no way on earth that Tech 21 stuff compares to PODs, Trashs, Amplitubes, Nigels etc; Tech 21 stuff is old-skool in the extreme. It simply does not sound like a real amp, although for some stuff that might be a good thing...

If you want a specific sound that Tech 21 stuff delivers then cool, otherwise buy something else.

I disagree.

I think the Tech21 sound far surpasses any of the "modelled" amp sims I have heard, which all sound very "boxy" and artificial to my ears, and lack both punch and prescence, two things that I look for in an amp.

I really think that digital amp modelling is crap, and you're better off with either frying tubes or transistors...
(the T21 stuff has an all-analog signal path)...converting the guitar sound into digital info at the preamp stage doesn't seem to help much for getting an "organic" sound...

Personal taste, mind you. Some people like nice and mellow guitar sounds, neither of which adjectives describes what I look for.

Lots of people do swear by recording with their pods, though, which will probably be consumed by the Zillions of people who like wimpy music

Not that I'm an opinionated bastard, or anything...

-S.

Tech 21 stuff may be technically "old-skool", but it's still capable of some usefull tones (I sometimes use it for clean-Fender amp or high-gain sounds).

I use the Line6 Guitar Port when I'm on the road with the laptop. It does a pretty good job of most of the tones I need (Fender, Vox and Marshall, unfortunately no Hiwatt!) and lots of ones I don't (the UltraHiGain stuff). It's reasonably priced (around €200 I think), small, and you can record your guitar direct over USB so that you don't need any other outboard.

My favourite is the Marshall JMP-1 preamp which you can sometimes pick up cheaply second-hand. It only does gain up to JCM900 levels though, which may not be enough for some metal guys.

Wicked high gain is possible with the Zoom 505II, which is under €100, and does lots of under wierd and wonderful effects too.

The Behringer V-Amp2 (V-Amp Pro due out soon and looks as if it'll be pretty interesting) is cheap and sounds pretty much like a POD (well, it does sound different, but I couldn't say if it were better or worse).

All of these solutions are compact and allow you to get a reasonable tone going directly into your soundcards Line-In (GuitarPort also allows input over USB).

I think each user has to check out the possibilities to find out what's right for him (or her). Every preamp/ampsim/effect/plugin sounds different and has its own strengths and weaknesses, just like all the hardware gear. You can just as easily start a flame war with Gibson vs. Fender vs. Gretsch vs. Rickenbacker or Marshall vs. Vox vs. Engl vs. MesaBoogie as with Cubase vs. Logic or PC vs. Mac.

The reality is that there's loads of great gear out there and you've got to find what's RIGHT FOR YOU.

PS. I also get some cool tones with Amplitube, but that doesn't help you get a good signal in the sequencer though. I haven't tried Trash yet, I will do soon, and I've heard reports from "Crap" to "Brilliant". I reckon if it polarizes people that much, than it must be at least "Interesting".

Hey Sleek Moth!

Just wondering.

Can you get cool slightly distorted sounds from a Tech21? (I mean the tone from an AC30 or a Deluxe turned right up.)

I can't. But I've never used the 19" unit, only various pedals. I'd really be interested, I've got a Tri-OD, which I love for some stuff, but I can't get an AC30 tone out of it (yeah, I know, it wasn't designed for it, but I was just interested if you had a workaround).

Or do you class AC30 sounds as wimpy? (In which case I will have to ask you to step outside!)

I think I overstated myself with the "wimpy" thing. Boredom will do that to you...

Quote:

Can you get cool slightly distorted sounds from a Tech21? (I mean the tone from an AC30 or a Deluxe turned right up.)

Well, it depends on what Vox tone you're looking for (AC30's can run quite a gamut of different sounds depending on model and year...), but if it's anything like a distorted '59 bassman, that's my favorite sound from the GT2...it's the "tweed" setting with the drive at about nine o'clock and the "mod" switch on hot wired...for an AC30 tone, you probably want the "classic" setting on the mic switch, but I usually go for one of the others so it's brighter.

There's other variations, but I like the "tweed" setting a lot...and the bottom end won't crap out like the pod tweed sounds...

Sorry! Couldn't resist

-S.

While this stuff is very subjective, and I'd be the first to admit that I love to mic real guitar amps, if you're actually considering any of this modeling stuff, read some of my posts about the J-Station.

I took a chance on it because it was cheaper than the POD, was 24 bit digital, and offered SPDIF digital output in addtion to analog. I much prefer this to any of the other things mentioned.

I mostly use it to record Bass Guitar, but it will really surprise you with the sounds you'll be able to come up with. This thing can actually do some amazing over the top sounds, but has one of the best clean, overdriven sounds with it's Blackface amp.

Here's a link to some more info http://www.zzounds.com/productreview--JOHJSTATION

Remember, there's no right or wrong. There are too many variables with styles of music, type of guitars/pickups, etc.

bluemoon

champion.rabbit wrote:

Tech 21? There is no way on earth that Tech 21 stuff compares to PODs, Trashs, Amplitubes, Nigels etc; Tech 21 stuff is old-skool in the extreme. It simply does not sound like a real amp, although for some stuff that might be a good thing...

I have two of their amps sitting right next to a POD XT. The Tech 21 nails a Marshall perfectly and does a responsive, juicy Fender too.

Quote:

If you want a specific sound that Tech 21 stuff delivers then cool, otherwise buy something else.

I disagree. A Sansamp is a solid investment, has been for years.

CaptainMark wrote:

Hey Sleek Moth! Just wondering. Can you get cool slightly distorted sounds from a Tech21? (I mean the tone from an AC30 or a Deluxe turned right up.)

I can get them from my TM10 or my TM120.

Quote:

I can't. But I've never used the 19" unit, only various pedals. I'd really be interested, I've got a Tri-OD, which I love for some stuff, but I can't get an AC30 tone out of it (yeah, I know, it wasn't designed for it, but I was just interested if you had a workaround).

Go try a Sansamp Classic and see what you think.

bluemoon wrote:

While this stuff is very subjective, and I'd be the first to admit that I love to mic real guitar amps, if you're actually considering any of this modeling stuff, read some of my posts about the J-Station.

A good friend of mine just picked one up. He's been gushing over it for days. If I didn't already own the POD XT and the Tech 21 stuff, I'd be considering one.

If anyone is interested there is a Trash demo mp3
and a wma (Windows Media format )

Quote:

Eric Myers - "Taking out the Trash" Here are a few guitar presets sent in by Trash user Eric Myers, and an example song that uses them. The interesting thing about the song is that the only effect used was Trash. All the amp modeling, delays - even the radio static effect - it's all Trash and nothing but Trash. The guitars were just plugged straight into the PC.

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/trash/trash_example.wma

Quote:

More Karvonen - "Wellamo" Checking in from Finland, More Karvonen sends us an original song with some Trash presets. Guitars were played through a preamp direct to PC. Drums were originally Soundfont samples of an acoustic drum set. Bass was originally Soundfont sample of a basic rock-style electric bass. The song was composed in Sonar 1.3.1 (24bit/44,1kHz) and mastered with Ozone.

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/trash/wellamo.mp3

Raven wrote:

If anyone is interested there is a Trash demo mp3 and a wma (Windows Media format ) Quote: Eric Myers - "Taking out the Trash" Here are a few guitar presets sent in by Trash user Eric Myers, and an example song that uses them. The interesting thing about the song is that the only effect used was Trash. All the amp modeling, delays - even the radio static effect - it's all Trash and nothing but Trash. The guitars were just plugged straight into the PC. http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/trash/trash_example.wma Quote: More Karvonen - "Wellamo" Checking in from Finland, More Karvonen sends us an original song with some Trash presets. Guitars were played through a preamp direct to PC. Drums were originally Soundfont samples of an acoustic drum set. Bass was originally Soundfont sample of a basic rock-style electric bass. The song was composed in Sonar 1.3.1 (24bit/44,1kHz) and mastered with Ozone. http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/trash/wellamo.mp3

The first demo is TERRIBLE! I really don't think that they should have that up on their site.

The second one is good, but not much use for listening to guitar sounds...

I bought trash, and so far I really like it but I must agree that it isn't any good (so far) for metal sounds.

You simply can't (so far) get it to 'chug'; in this respect the previous guy was right to say it's no good for metal/modern high-gain sounds. It certainly (so far) is good for light-distortion, or heavy retro/wierd distortion but impossible to get to 'chug'.

I guess the lack of 'chug' is to do with the way that Trash effects the envelope of the signal?

I dunno.

Also, I seriously cannot belive that people are suggesting that tech 21 stuff (not counting the actual amps which is cheating) is any way as effective as amplitude, pod, nigel etc.

Although this stuff is incredibly subjective...

Boy, I didn't mean to start a religious war. Really. Good thing I didn't ask "what should I get, a Les Paul or a Strat"? Don't answer, I have both.

I went ahead and popped for Amplitube after trying out the demo. There are some really cool presents and I bet I can fiddle with the controls for a very, very long time. I will admit it's nice being able to change the tone of the guitar after the track has been laid down.

Yes, everything is very subjective. My Strat (American) has stock pickups and has a very specific tone though Amplitube, a little more "tinny" and not real "fat". My Les Paul (Studio) has Seymour Duncan's in it and it sounds HUGE through the same setting. But they each have their own purpose.

The low down, if you want some decent heavier tones without an amp, get Amplitube and a direct box.

While I do play rock music, some songs are heavier than others so it's great to have some flexibility. The tone that works for one song might not work for the next.

I did grab a demo copy of Warp and tried that out as well, there's no way I'd pay what they want for that piece of crap. That's a $59 VST at the most. If you want those amp sounds, get something else. But opinions are like what? Everyone has one.

I didn't really like the sound of Trash either, I think they same tones could be achieved in Amplitube. I like the Ozone product from Izotope which I use quite often. Maybe they'll do a little better in the next version of Trash.

I also said to heck with it and bought a small PA practice system so I pulled my 8 channel Beringher mixer back. Big difference in the setup at home now. I can't remember who said it, but yea, patching on the PC stinks. I picked up a 48 point 1/4" patch bay at the same time to add even another level of flexibility. I'm just going to run everything into it, label everything and patch on that in my studio rack.

I re-recorded a couple guitar tracks with Amplitube last night of songs that were done with some combinations of my Marshall amps. Mastered it down and gave it to other band members to listen to. Didn't tell them what I did different. It doesn't sound "better" (another subjective) per se, but not any "worse". They said "it sounds about the same. What did you do"? Proof to me that I can at least come very close to a real amp sound wihout an amp.

It's VERY close, but not completely the same. But then, it's not an amp so how can anyone really expect it to sound EXACTLY the same? There's just way too many variables with an amp. The make, model, year, speaker, cabinet, the guitar, pickups, strings even the player. The type of mic used, the placement of it. The list goes on and on and on. The mixing board, the EQ settings, the crappy engineer sitting behind it.

What does concern me is that I will become too dependent on the software to achieve tonal "prefection". I keep going back to the 80's when I had a whole rack full of gear. Preamps, processors, EQ, compressor, limiter, power amp and the whole thing was MIDI controlled from an ADA pedal board. I consciously made a decision in the 90's to dump the whole rig and get some plain old amps because I was way too dependent on electronics and technology. A decision that saved my sound and wallet, not to mention my sanity from programming all those presets. There is simply no replacement for a great sounding amp (or three). Again though, my opinion.

I already lug enough gear around to gigs I don't want to start dragging a PC along with me. With that in mind I'm going to pick up the Tech 21 SansAmp thing next paycheck. Anything that has caused as much stir as that I have to at least try it out. If I don't like it I'll just hype it up and sell it to the other guitar player.

Anyways, thanks all for your thoughts and opinions. I can now leave my amps at practice. My lower back thanks you as well.

I really can't agree as far as Trash goes; while there are some sounds that Amplitube is better at, there are dozens that Trash is better at. Trash is much more subtle, but Amplitube certainly does modern sounds much better.

I already can't imagine not having either.



Warp on the other hand can go fish!

hi lwg

i don't want to argue
but tho' my psa1 has got 'cabinet emulation' preset, it is just carefuly tweaked distortion...
and correct me if i am wrong, but DI box to me is just impedance conversion tool, right?

michu wrote:

hi lwg i don't want to argue but tho' my psa1 has got 'cabinet emulation' preset, it is just carefuly tweaked distortion...

Actually, it's not. Ask any engineer. "Carefully tweaked distortion" doesn't react to an input signal the way an amp does.

Quote:

and correct me if i am wrong, but DI box to me is just impedance conversion tool, right?

Can be, but not always. Refer to the SansAmp and also the Hughes and Kettner Red Box for two examples of DI boxes that also emulate miked cabinets.

lwg wrote:

michu wrote: hi lwg i don't want to argue but tho' my psa1 has got 'cabinet emulation' preset, it is just carefuly tweaked distortion... Actually, it's not. Ask any engineer. "Carefully tweaked distortion" doesn't react to an input signal the way an amp does.

-But I don't really think that Tech 21 stuff does react to input in any complex way; I think the previous guy is right, it sounds like eqing.

[/QUOTE]

Quote:

and correct me if i am wrong, but DI box to me is just impedance conversion tool, right?

Can be, but not always. Refer to the SansAmp and also the Hughes and Kettner Red Box for two examples of DI boxes that also emulate miked cabinets.[/quote]

-Again though, aren't they merely filtered?

Okay, so now we're on to "speaker modelling..."

I don't really understand this concept, but then, I have always tried to take the speakers out of the equation anyway. (I go for clean, high wattage speakers. I don't like them to break up at all...)

As far as I can tell, if you take that part out of the loop, the effect a speaker has on a guitar amp is basically that of a mid-pass filter. A very crafty mid pass filter, perhaps...

It seems like a kinda circular wank of some sort, recording a speaker in such a way that what comes out of a second set of speakers sounds like what's coming out of your speakers...

I think that's one thing I like about the direct-recording-revolution-thing, is that now I am so used to it, I use my monitoring rig as the poweramp part of my guitar sound.

What I hear coming out of the speakers is the end result of the sound. Instead of recording my amp, my amp is the recording.

So I suppose that's one reason I like the T21 stuff. It's much more of a stripped down preamp. It is a preamp, not a simulation of a preamp...

-S.

champion.rabbit wrote:

-But I don't really think that Tech 21 stuff does react to input in any complex way; I think the previous guy is right, it sounds like eqing.

No, EQ would have the same response, regardless of the amplitude or frequencies of the input signal. Take 2 minutes to play a SansAmp and you'll see that's not the case.

Quote:

-Again though, aren't they merely filtered?

It's a reactive filter circuit (actually a group of them in the SansAmp), much in the same way a speaker cabinet is a reactive load.

Now, I'll grant that if you use the "idiot setting" on a SansAmp (dime all the knobs) it'll sound like an expensive distortion pedal. That's not what it's made for.

as i told you lwg
i don't want to argue

i just noticed, that my sansamp feels best when feeding amp with cabinet or some cabinet emulation. at least for hi distortion sound (like mesa presets), for clean and mildly driven sounds i choose direct output.

of course way sansamp treats signal is in no way simpistic.
it is highly dependant on both level and frequency content of input and highly nonlinear

peace

michu

lwg wrote:

champion.rabbit wrote: -But I don't really think that Tech 21 stuff does react to input in any complex way; I think the previous guy is right, it sounds like eqing. No, EQ would have the same response, regardless of the amplitude or frequencies of the input signal. Take 2 minutes to play a SansAmp and you'll see that's not the case. Quote: -Again though, aren't they merely filtered? It's a reactive filter circuit (actually a group of them in the SansAmp), much in the same way a speaker cabinet is a reactive load. Now, I'll grant that if you use the "idiot setting" on a SansAmp (dime all the knobs) it'll sound like an expensive distortion pedal. That's not what it's made for.

But I have tried the Tech 21 stuff; the sans amp plus several of their other bits and bobs. In fact I used to gig with their Tri AC, but as the guy above said; they aren't good at speaker emulation. They are essentially posh fuzz-boxes/filters in a pedal.

I even prefer the sound of my J-Station to the Tech 21 stuff, and I HATE my J-Station!

I'm not knocking the tech 21 stuff; as I have said, I used it for a while. But I still maintain that compared to Line 6 stuff, Nigel, Johnson, Trash, Amplitube, Simulanalog etc, Tech 21 are not good at speaker modelling.

Hmm...

My main problem with the modelled stuff is it isn't in-your-face or aggressive enough, both of which I can get from my T21 stuff.

I have owned both pod and V-amp, and tried j-station extensively. To me, they may not sound the same, but they all have the same awful sound...

I have the same problem with amplitube, which I tried out at Namm this year.

Just out of curiosity, Bunny, what kind of stuff do you play? (I'm wondering if it's a stylistic thing, perhaps...)

-S.

Sleek Month wrote:

Hmm... My main problem with the modelled stuff is it isn't in-your-face or aggressive enough, both of which I can get from my T21 stuff. I have owned both pod and V-amp, and tried j-station extensively. To me, they may not sound the same, but they all have the same awful sound... I have the same problem with amplitube, which I tried out at Namm this year. Just out of curiosity, Bunny, what kind of stuff do you play? (I'm wondering if it's a stylistic thing, perhaps...) -S.

Well the stuff I do 'seriously' ranges from Jazz, Post Rock through to Alt-Rock/No-Wave stuff I guess.

But for laughs I still play the odd bit of metal, country and stuff. I've been playing and recording in bands for years and have an unhealthily eclectic taste in music, so unless I am arguing with a bunch of people who only like Clapton or Pink Floyd then I doubt it can be only a stylistic thing.

Maybe it's a guitar-thing; maybe we all play such different-sounding guitars...

Maybe it's an ear thing; mine aren't what they were before I bought my first stack!

Quote:

Maybe it's a guitar-thing; maybe we all play such different-sounding guitars...

Could be. One of my problems with the amp modellers I've owned (Pod, Vamp) is that their preamps fart out really easy with high gain pickups...

I play everything myself. I think an interesting thing would be to start a thread where we post little bits of music we've recorded to show what we're talking about.

I mean, you can say what you want, but you really gotta hear something to make any sort of choice, which is, I believe, what this thread is about.(Some one trying to decide which way to get the sound they need...)

We could do it here, but this thread is several pages old already...

Discuss? This could be fun...

-S.

SOunds like a fun idea!