I was reading an article regarding Line 6's new Variax modeling
guitar and got to wondering if it would'nt be possible to code a
plugin to do essentially the same thing. Not a VSTi like Slayer
Strat-A-Various or Revitar but an FX plug that would allow you
to say make your Strat sound like a Les Paul or banjo or sitar.
Basically a software version of Roland's VG8. Is this possible or
am I dreaming here?

TIA.....CL

I don't know of anything, but Roland has a MIDI converter box that lets you plug a guitar into any synth or controller board. I've thought about doing that with my bass and Trilogy one day.

Possible but not plausible. but in fact easily done...

I tried the variax and it sucked patooty pretty bad....


IF you could get a direct midi signal into the ocmputer you can make the guitar sound like anything. Just buy a midi pickup for your strat!

-R bert

Thanks but I'm well aware of the available hardware. That was'nt
my question. I want a software plugin so that I can manipulate
tracks that have already been recorded.

Cheers......CL

If you have a midi input into the computer.... There are tons of very good guitar synths out there right now... There is a search on your left


Is anyone else following me? Almost every VST host would be able to do as you ask.

-R bert

www.amplitube.com

you can record dry signals and you can (with editing the amps and eq and whatnot) "change" the instrument

Quote:

CapnLockheed:(cut)...but an FX plug that would allow you to say make your Strat sound like a Les Paul or banjo or sitar.

i see what you mean CapnLockheed. the gk2a-to-midi converters, made both by Roland and Yamaha, are not for this case.
Vg8 & 88 have a built in guitar modeler, (body, resonation, pick-ups) which, i think, is not completely far from the Variax type of processing. should be great to have a virtual one. Amplitube is "just" a great amp modeler...

another thing i'm always asking my self is why Roland or others aren't making some gk2a pc interface...i want a vg-88 and a v-bass in my host!

Quote:

Saturn9Studios:I tried the variax and it sucked patooty pretty bad....

well, i never felt in love with a modeled Gibson...
btw, the midi pickup sucks totally, instead. is nice for some things, but it's a mere compromise, to play something, you almost have to forget you're playing a guitar .
+, i bet CapnLockheed knows where the search button is, he has almost 6 times your number of posts...

peace,
Wman @ pluggotic

Two problems:

1) This is really only feasible if you have a hex pickup - seperated signal from each individual pickup. Once they're (all six strings) mixed together, it's *much* more difficult to model the properties of electromagnetic pickups.

2) Applying such an effect on pre-recorded parts wouldn't be much use if the recordings were of a preamp, amplifier, speaker, microphone, etc. The more factors you add into the mix, the much more difficult it is to isolate any single one of them and manipulate it.

Sorry, no good news today.

Forever,




Kim.

I believe the Variax has been constructed in such a manner as to permit the pickups to deliver a very predictable signal to the processor ready for 're-modelling' into something else. Because of the complexity of the signal that would be generated, I believe this would be impossible to 'retrofit' this processing to a 'normal' guitar.

And, as has been stated, once you have tracks which have been recorded, no matter how cleanly, they are probably more complex still...

"If you have a midi input into the computer.... There are tons of very good guitar synths out there right now... There is a search on your left "

Yeah, I do know where the search button is...he..he..and I'm also quite
aware of ALL the available guitar synths both soft and hard. Again, this
really isn't what I'm after.


"i see what you mean CapnLockheed. the gk2a-to-midi converters, made both by Roland and Yamaha, are not for this case.
Vg8 & 88 have a built in guitar modeler, (body, resonation, pick-ups) which, i think, is not completely far from the Variax type of processing. should be great to have a virtual one. Amplitube is "just" a great amp modeler...

another thing i'm always asking my self is why Roland or others aren't making some gk2a pc interface...i want a vg-88 and a v-bass in my host "

YES!! I'd be totally into a simple hex pickup software combination.
I think G-Vox used to make something along these lines. And why
on earth did Roland discontinue their GI-10 converter??


"I believe the Variax has been constructed in such a manner as to permit the pickups to deliver a very predictable signal to the processor ready for 're-modelling' into something else. Because of the complexity of the signal that would be generated, I believe this would be impossible to 'retrofit' this processing to a 'normal' guitar. "

Yes and no. I think it's true that a normal guitar's output is too
complex. Line 6 does however have plans in the works to relaease
Variax technology in retrofit hex pickup converter box format not
unlike Roland's VG8. There are also plans to add features such as
MIDI I/O to the Variax guitars. I would'nt buy a Variax in it's present
state. For me it boils down to $700 worth of DSP mated to a cheap
shit $300 korean guitar.

"And, as has been stated, once you have tracks which have been recorded, no matter how cleanly, they are probably more complex still..."

Yeah....guess it's just not feasible.....yet....he...he...

Cheers.......CL

I dont think any of us understand what you want... A hex/sept midi pickup (which are available) would allow you to capture notes, then synthesize them to any sound you want.

Is this not what you want? To play a guitar and have it sound like something else, allowing you to change it at any time>

-R bert

I think that I understand what he wants. He wants the translating process to be further down the line. In this case, a VST effect plugin. This way, he can change his mind as many times as he wants, including just going back to processed guitar. He has audio of the guitar recorded in his host of choice and that audio gets filtered by this plugin to turn it into MIDI. Sounds like a cool idea to me. It also sounds familiar... are we sure that this hasn't been done already by someone like Tobybear or one of the Smartelectronix crew?

That's impossible, you cant analyze a complex signal like a simple power chord down to the notes contained right now. It's impossible with our current hardware. Theoretically it IS possible, but unfeasable for many many years.....

tobbear has the cowboy guitar thing, which is NOT meant to make an electric guoitar sound acoustic, it doesnt even come clse in fact. And that was not his intent to my knowledge.... or so says the webpage

simulanalog.org has FREE extremely good modelling plugins for amps.

Modelling different electric guitar tones is very hard if not impossible, but transcribing instruments outside of a neutral protocol at the source (such as a midi pickup) is absolutely impossible.

-R bert

"I think that I understand what he wants. He wants the translating process to be further down the line. In this case, a VST effect plugin. This way, he can change his mind as many times as he wants, including just going back to processed guitar. He has audio of the guitar recorded in his host of choice and that audio gets filtered by this plugin to turn it into MIDI. Sounds like a cool idea to me. It also sounds familiar... are we sure that this hasn't been done already by someone like Tobybear or one of the Smartelectronix crew?"

Yes! This is exactly what I was looking for! There is a plug out called
Ultram that converts audio2midi but it's results are'nt entirely predictable
or controllable......that being said it can do some remarcably cool things
but not quite what I'm after. And it was'nt simply pitch2midi I was inquiring
about but guitar modeling which is not the same thing as guitar synthesis.
I'm not looking to make my guitar sound like a Moog...if I want a Moog
sound I'll play a Moog sound. Hrmn.....I wonder if it might not be possible
to use convolution modeling to produce impulses of the tonal characteristics of various guitars???

Cheers......CL:oops:

Answer: no

Guitar synthesis will do what you want! You dont have to make your guitar sound like a moog! You can make it sound like another guitar. That's like someone having a ms2000 and saying "why would i plug it into midi, if i wanted my ms2000 to sound like a ilblit id have bought one of those"

You could record the midi of the guitar, and somewhat naturally synthesize it with other guitar samples. This would be more accurate that what you wish.

If you were really hellbent on having the original signal, a sttrat with a midi pickup can easily be recorded at the same time through and amp/di/modeler. you'd have the midi signal to synthesize, as well as the original signal to switch to or blend in.


It's very easy to convert at the source, but not after. Ever wonder why you dont hear piano players asking to make their grand pianos sound like moogs? Because they can use a midi keyboard for that! Why do midi keyboardist want their midi keyboards to sound like gran pianos? Because they can! It's posible, and can sound veyr good.

Likewise for midi contorlled, synth guitar. Ive worked with it before, and it can sound very convincing with good samples. I know of other engineers who have as well, casio made a guitar back in the day that did osmething veyr similiar. It's not a new idea.

You cant created a correct midi signal from a complex signal. How can it tell a 1st harmonic from perhaps another instrument playing an octave!? among many other questions.

-R bert

"You could record the midi of the guitar, and somewhat naturally synthesize it with other guitar samples. This would be more accurate that what you wish. "

Mmnn...yeah that might do it. As for the Casio controllers, they are convenient in that they convert directly to midi without the need
for an external controller, but they don't track very well IMHO.
The best results I've gotten is with a guitar equipped with an
RMC piezo system,(such as Brian Moore iGuitars), and Blue Chip's
AXXON midi converters. Still not perfect but they're getting there.

Cheers......CL

The only thing I know that can come close(I'm playing around with this idea right now)is a physical modeling synth(Tassman and the new version of Steampipe are what I'm using)to synthesize the body,and then run it through your choice of amp simulations.You're still stuck with all the ugly facts of pitch to MIDI conversion with the delay and other tracking hassles,but you can do some fairly amazing reconstructions that way.
I'd love for someone to come up with an app that lets you do modeling tricks on a live audio input.Tassman with audio ins to the models so you could just use the models as resonators would ROCK!(Scott from AAS-are you listening?)
ew

ew wrote:

The only thing I know that can come close(I'm playing around with this idea right now)is a physical modeling synth(Tassman and the new version of Steampipe are what I'm using)to synthesize the body,and then run it through your choice of amp simulations.You're still stuck with all the ugly facts of pitch to MIDI conversion with the delay and other tracking hassles,but you can do some fairly amazing reconstructions that way. I'd love for someone to come up with an app that lets you do modeling tricks on a live audio input.Tassman with audio ins to the models so you could just use the models as resonators would ROCK!(Scott from AAS-are you listening?) ew

Hey that's a GREAT idea!! Steampipe is a fantastic instrument,
gonna have to give that a try. That's exactly what I'm talking
about, using models as resonators!! If you can play live through
a cabinet model why then not an instrument model?.....it would
be great to be able to add a little woody hollowbody air to solid
body guitar or bass.

Cheers......CL

dunno if you noticed my 'syng' vst effect..

i used a freeware prog to analyze the formants of speech elements and translated those formant values into synthedit filter cutoff values.. it goes 'aah' and it even goes 'zzzz' and 'jjjjj' to a degree.

i've done some stuff using the same method on instrument samples.. analyse a few single guitar string samples as i would a recorded voice. i wouldn't say it's a magical transfmogrification, but there is an effect....

not knowing a lot about the ins and outs of different guitar models/playing techniques, i'm sure there's more that you can do to emulate thicker strings/thinner strings, growlier pickups (ie. take original pitch, shift and mix slightly back in for agitation, use synth oscillators to model agitation, et c.) but it's not my thing to do.

still.. synthedit!

Actually,come to think of it,you might be able to build yourself a series of resonators in Reaktor that would work.Tie it in with parts of the Banaan amp simulator(I'm using just the amp simulator without the compressors,noise gates,etc.a lot lately),and you could do it.With the unit delays and the comb filters in the new stuff,you might be able to build something you could use.The guitar itself would provide the basic sound,and the MIDI pickup would provide pitch/gate,etc.information for the resonators.
Hmmm...
ew

Check out Lateral solutions guitar synth

http://www.lateralsol.com/

use of resonators, wavetravelling, formants or convolutions is a thing.
Reaktor or Tassman should/could do the trick...or some of them.

to Saturn9Studios:
saying that playing a multisampled guitar in a vsti/hardware sampler connected to a gk2a-to-midi converter (gi-10, gr33, etc.) which is then connected to a gk2a-equipped guitar (could it be any longer to write?) is REALISTIC is just, mmmh...worse than a splatter scene
no matter what fx you apply.
do you ever tried big octave bends (yeah, that screaming, hysteric sweep)? ever made a fast part with an acoustic or nylon or steel guitar?
I tried it desperately for some time, i give you that, but it's simply too restrictive (unless you play with Cardigans). similar things with Ultram or GuitarSynth, only less stable.
guitar pickup signal (or the way vg88 uses gk2a) is the only way for decent digital porno-guitar-action.

Modelling maybe be still too tied to precessor power, (i.e. stuff like Variax is crap, Vg88 is just "nice", Amplitube is not all that, etc.) but it's a start.
btw, when i hear king crimson or meshuggah (people using stuff like p.o.d., vg88, Johnson) my ears are delighted, all doubts about modeling are washed away.

now, this is the Nth thread where i uselessly cry about those issues, i swear it's my last one. Two last questions...
1)do you guys know what Squarepusher uses to play bass synths with his bass?
2)what do you think about the pitch recognition engine in Kantos?
is it good and ready for some guitar'n'bass action?

Xoxos, i'm very interested in your new creature, sounds damn exciting!

Wman

I agree, but I was trying to adress what I felt his original question was. It seemed as if he wanted a note-by-note solution rather than a modelling solution. Which is why i made the suggestions I did.

And gosh that POD stuff sucks... argh. Hurts my ears everytime I hear it, you can tell right away when you're listeing to one of those box modellers, ESPECIALLY when that AIR stuff is on, or similiar.... You CAN get good results with them for sure, Ive worked with people who insist on using them myself, but it's a much easier task to get a good sound out of a good amp with a good mic.....

-R bert

Saturn9Studios wrote:

it's a much easier task to get a good sound out of a good amp with a good mic..... -R bert

Some of us don't have a good amp or a good mic.

Some of us don't have good housemates or good neighbours.

Forever,




Kim.

I just tried out Guitar Synth.. as it is much much easier for me to play the guitar than keyboards, I'd love to be able to use it with a sequencer. I tried it with a classical guitar and a dean markley contact mic. With a little tweaking with the settings I got it to id notes surprisingly well, but the latency is unbearable. Anybody tried the registered version, is the performance decisively improved in that version?

If the latency is constant, another solution would be to record w/o listening to the output, and just move the midi part backwards according to the amount of latency of course. Or does it depend on the polyphony of audio input? I got good results mainly playing monophonic stuff, maybe it would work better with an electric guitar, that's what it was designed for anyways.

Multitude,
If you register Guitar synth you have much faster sampling rate options amongst others. latency is smaller the faster compooter you have. I only have a Piii 1Ghz and suffer enough latency for it to be a problem unless you're using it to control pads!
Another thing, you can't use asio drivers (it's an asio thing, multiple applications etc.) so you get longer latencies with other drivers.
I've found the best way to use Guitar synth is to record an audio file of your guitar in your sequencer or whatever. You can then load this file into GuitarSynth and save it as a midi file to import back into your sequncer. This way, you can adjust GuitarSynth setting (before saving midi file) to be optimum performance. You also need to play very cleanly. Using an acoustic works well but if you use an electric, switch to the neck pickup for optimal clarity.
Also, they're just beta testing a new version which is much better and which should be out soon (if not already)
It's certainly great value for money

any one you tried TallStick Audio to Midi Converter?

I have found it be one of the best (alas no pitch bend tho')

www.TallStick.com

I have been using it for the last year or so. V2 has just come out, and now costs (v1.07 may stil be around, but you'd have to look for it - that was free).

It will process files and live, and output to a midi channel or to a file. So using it with Hubi or MIDI-OX (as I do) can get good results. Often what I have done is record the audio, then run it through the convertor, then i have both, and can mix between the signals as appropriate, that way you can have a morphing solo, etc!

HTH
DSP

Duncan, what's the tallsstick like for audio to kidi conversion
Is it accurate? fast? small latency? polyphonic?
Is it usable live if you have a slower machine (P3, 1Ghz, 512MB Ram)
Thanks

I find it to be great, v low latency. And interms of tracking, there are guys using it with bass, and it copes very well.

I use it on my laptop, similar spec to the config you give, but with 256MB.. and I'm recommending it!

o, and it switachable between mono and poly mode. You have to play with the fine tuning to get the response you need (there are great controls, and good presets to help), you can also filter specific notes, there is a graphic eq for each note (128 band!) and realtime spectrum analysis...

When you're off work (or even if you can get a sneak preview whilst there), go look!

You can find the free version at http://download.com.com/3000-2171-7072137.html?tag=lst-0-1

HTH
DSP

xoxos wrote:

dunno if you noticed my 'syng' vst effect.. still.. synthedit!

excuse me, don't i know you from somewhere

yes, but there is still so much to do here on this coarse plane of existence

muz & duncan,

thanks for the tips. I'm just trying out the Tallstick audio-midi converter, and my first impressions are really good. I'm grooving with a subtractor bass sound midiyoked into reason from the ts audio-midi converter, and the latency is low enough to.. well almost, to enjoy, but definitely low enough to try out sounds and record simple melodies. And I *am* using asio drivers on both of them. I do get weird glitches every now and then, maybe it's because of the driver sharing.. dunno. Sounds *very* usable, depending on how much the performance will improve upon some tweaking... The cost for a full version is 30 quid, little more than guitar synth, but my first impression is that this program works better for me.

sounds good multitude. I look forward to trying it this weekend. What system do you have? I have a PIII 1Ghz 512MB RAM and I get a bad latency (unusable) with guitar synth and it won't work under asio with another program.
30 quid? I looked on the site and it was only 21.
Guitar synth is $39 i think.
I want to try it with Reason for triggerig instruments so this looks great

mtude.. glad you are having some success

Like I said, I often do my work more 'offline' - record the wav, then run it through and capture the MIDI - I can then tidy up as required.

Actually I've done a bit singing - when I've had an idea of a melodic fill that is too fast for me to work out properly what the notes are (my piano or guitar approximations can be close, but I miss stuff, or it becomes more stylized to the instrument), I sing it then convert: great for bebop, etc.

DSP

I have an Athlon 1,33GHz with 256MB and M-Audio Delta44 soundcard, I guess I'm able to use asio on both because the audio-midi-converter uses audio in only, and the sequencer uses audio out only? The latency *was* a lot more noticeable when using guitar synth, hope the Tallstick program works better for you muz as well. And yes, it was only 30 euros, not £. Not bad!

Last night I still had some problems with note recognition (short extra notes appearing one octave up and down from the original), but it's very easy to clean up the melody in the piano roll, and I bet the performance gets better once I learn to use all the tweaking possibilities the program offers. I'll reply to this thread once I find the optimal settings for jamming with the guitar...

I'll have to register the program to try offline processing, but indeed this program looks like a good solution for me, I've been *so* frustrated because it's difficult to put down musical ideas on the computer if your keyboard playing (like mine) sucks. Singing down ideas sounds good too - to avoid parts becoming too guitarish.

I'm still wondering whether I gave up on guitar synth too soon, but with Tallstick I at least know the final latency before paying for the product...
They should have a discussion board though, to share presets for different instruments...