"It is possible that there will be products available. " are the opening words of an e-mail i received from lexicon themselves

So my suspicion is they are testing the waters with soanr before producing an open plug - hopefully

So for everyones benefit e-mail them and say you want a reverb but dont want sonar (even if you do)
That way their will be more reverbs for all

yes please

Some of the best things in life are free !!!

Why wait for Lexicon plugs ?

Get SIR !

http://www.knufinke.de/sir/index_en.html

The best "Reverb plugin" you can get.

Then get all the nice hardware impulses here:

http://noisevault.com/index.php?page=3&sid=cb60a91576f2e667ec6ad5d8eba aa165

Not just the Lexicons, but all the finest in
the world !

Alesis Hardware 1
EMT Hardware 1
Eventide Hardware 0
Kurzweil Hardware 1
Lexicon Hardware 16
Quantec Hardware 0
Roland Hardware 0
TC Electronics Hardware 8
Impulse Modeller Created 2
Yamaha Hardware 0
Real Spaces
Rooms, halls, coffeecans. 2
Cabinets and Speakers 1
Preamps 5
Microphones

Some impulses are still missing but I guess
they will be back soon.

Have fun !
Midiworks

i hate to say it - but SIR is good but not that good

1 the reverbs are static - good reverbs are not - ie the tail changes

2 you cant alter any paprameters - ie you cant set the early reflections at a musical time after the inital

3 ludcirious latency means you cant use it on inputs

gimme lexicon (or something similair)

This might be a dopey question, but the Sir spec says it's 44khz 16 bit.

Does that mean it won't work in my normal 24/32 bit SX environment?

Quote:

This might be a dopey question, but the Sir spec says it's 44khz 16 bit. Does that mean it won't work in my normal 24/32 bit SX environment?

No worries there... the newest version of SIR will accept 24 and 32 bit impulses (although most impulses you can d/l from say Noisevault etc are 16/44.1 wav files - so you can't actually take advantage of it yet, unless you hire your own hardware and record your own 24 or 32 bit impulses)
And the other thing is that Cubase will work with different bitrates at the same time anyway, so you can use 24bit recording for your regular stuff, but use the 16bit impulses with SIR at the same time...you can still record the reverb output as 24bit (but it will have come from a 16bit source).

Quote:

i hate to say it - but SIR is good but not that good 1 the reverbs are static - good reverbs are not - ie the tail changes

What????? Any hardware reverb is static also, unless you have some kind of modulation on it, which only the very best have. Hardware works out a reverb tail the same way a CPU does - the only way for a h/w reverb tail to change is by either tweaking parameters on the fly (which nobody would bother doing) or by having a modulation effect of some kind. Any h/w reverb works out the details of the reverb, tonality, early reflections etc then simply applies a timed envelope to the tail - if it says it has a 2.3 second reverb, then that is exactly what you get - a 2.3 second reverb no matter what the input source...... methinks you've got your wires crossed somewhere.

Certainly you're right about lack of editability though .... however, as SIR is for free and sounds better than any budget h/w reverb unit around (if you use a PCM91 or Eventide impulse ..it does sound better than an MPX), I think that adds up to pretty good value for quality.

kevvvvv wrote:

This might be a dopey question, but the Sir spec says it's 44khz 16 bit. Does that mean it won't work in my normal 24/32 bit SX environment?

Works fine in Cubase SX - but you can only use it as an insert effect.

SIR is now 24bit, although there was no problem using it in SX even when it wasn't. Think about when you load a 16bit file into a 24bit project, the file will play just fine except it just won't take advantage of the extra bit depth. I think the Samplitude convolution reverb may even be 32bit (don't quote me on that).

Features:

performance optimised
wave-file import 24-32 bit
new slider ( fine option with "shift" )
FFT EQ for the IR
Attack+Time Early Reflections Parameter
Auto gain option
incoming Signal stereo width
new interface design

WORKS !

Midiworks

Quote:

unless you have some kind of modulation on it, which only the very best

like my powercore classic verb

as i said sir is not that amazing and you might argue this point but you cant argue with 2 and 3

Guys, you don't know what you're talking about. Read how convolution works and you'll understand that it gives a perfect representation of a linear system. Anyways, 99% of the good reverbs modulate the reverb tail, this is especially true when looking at how the lexicon reverbs work and why they sound so lush and non-static. Convolution reproduces this precisely as it's a sample of the impulse responce.

As for ericj23's point 2 and 3, it's bull.. SIR's built in EQ, controll of Attack and Decay etc. are more than enough to get a reverb to fit into a song. Not mentioning the hundreds of impulses out there that are very quick and easy to go trough (once they are downloaded that is).

Sounds to me more like you haven't used SIR in a real production environment and like you've used bad impulses or something as it is clearly superior sounding to even the Powercore Classicverb (well, maybe you like it more than a TC 5000 or 6000 system but that'd be a first ever). Not that I'm saying the Classicverb is bad as it isn't. It is way better than any VST non-convoluted reverb.

The latency is bad and makes it impossible to use on the input. True. But the latency is NOT an issue when using it on busses or inserts during mixdown in Nuendo 2, Samplitude or any other software (though you need to manually compensate it). The quality of the results more than makes up for the small hassle it takes to get it up and running.

Especially if you need 'spatialness' trough the use of ambience there is really no other option as only the really high end machines do good, dense, realistic/musical first reflections (and no, don't even dare telling me that Ambience VST is any good.. sorry folks).

Cheers,
bManic

PS. I just tried altiverb a couple of days ago and it amazes me how SIR can be free as it's way more powerful than altiverb. On a side note, I also ran some test with Waves plugins as RTAS vs TDM and I was devastated. The TDM version sounds way better.. so what some people have said about the bad Waves VST plugin quality is true. Period. Btw. We were 5 people in the room and EVERYBODY heard a big difference.

kritikon, megl, Uncle E ... thanx for the responses.

Appreciated

What exactly gets modulated in the reverb tail? Pitch, feedback, amplitude?

nuffink wrote:

What exactly gets modulated in the reverb tail? Pitch, feedback, amplitude?

You can modulate a lot of parameters but usually it's the pitch of the individual delay lines to create a lush tail. Modulating the delay time of the early reflections can create an illusion of density and movement. I don't know what use modulating the amplitude and feedback in terms of reverb quality has but it could be an interesting effect.

Cheers,
bManic

Ta bManic

bmanic wrote:

Guys, you don't know what you're talking about. Read how convolution works and you'll understand that it gives a perfect representation of a linear system. Anyways, 99% of the good reverbs modulate the reverb tail, this is especially true when looking at how the lexicon reverbs work and why they sound so lush and non-static. Convolution reproduces this precisely as it's a sample of the impulse responce.

You are totally wrong, pal. Only linear temporally-invariant systems may be exactly modelled using convolution. It means that the properties of the device are constant and the impulse response is static, exactly same, whenever taken. In other words, the response of the system to an input sound is everytime the same. In shift-variant systems (those reverbs with modulated tail) the impulse response is different every time, so that you never get the same static tail, even if your input audio repeats. This cannot be obtained using convolutions as it is, and therefore SIR is not able to reproduce those lush Lexicon reverbs.

i think youll find you are wrong regarding both points 1 and 2 -

the modulation is delibaretly non linear in order to give a diffuse warm effect ie to get away from a mathematical model of how things sound - sir is a single snapshot of what a reverb unit is doing - a real lexicon would alter the signal over time - sir just keep running exactly the same impulse - ie no modulation over time

2 you cannot change the predelay time - therfore you cannot make it pulse in time with your tune - get a delay calculator get a large reverb and set those early reflections at a musical division - 1/32 of a beat - the affect this has on the sound can be clearly heard - as the reflection reinforce the rhythmic nature of the inputs - SIR cannot do this, with eqs or whatever else - well you could emulate it using the envelope but this will not be true early reflection just a volume control - my point is this is not using SIR as ambience but as an FX

Now please dont think im bashing SIR - its amazing and its free - i use it all the time and anyone who is into computer music should have it but i still feel its not the do it all reverb - the lexicon one is by all accounts absolutely excellent and controllable

MB wrote:

bmanic wrote: Guys, you don't know what you're talking about. Read how convolution works and you'll understand that it gives a perfect representation of a linear system. Anyways, 99% of the good reverbs modulate the reverb tail, this is especially true when looking at how the lexicon reverbs work and why they sound so lush and non-static. Convolution reproduces this precisely as it's a sample of the impulse responce. You are totally wrong, pal. Only linear temporally-invariant systems may be exactly modelled using convolution. It means that the properties of the device are constant and the impulse response is static, exactly same, whenever taken. In other words, the response of the system to an input sound is everytime the same. In shift-variant systems (those reverbs with modulated tail) the impulse response is different every time, so that you never get the same static tail, even if your input audio repeats. This cannot be obtained using convolutions as it is, and therefore SIR is not able to reproduce those lush Lexicon reverbs.

Ah yes, you are correct sir. My statement is actually not wrong but in the concept it is . I DO get the modulation but in a static manner, so each time it modulates the same way. True. My bad, and this is a big deal as anything static can sound lifeless which makes a real Lexicon vs an Impulse a lost battle.
Thanks for correcting me.

Cheers,
bManic

PS. that doesn't mean SIR is bad. It still sounds way better than the Classicverb when using good impulses. IMO of course.

i agree - but i wouldnt be with out classic verb - as i can record through it and it is nice for those fx duties

the stuff i write (although thats maybe pushing it a bit) dont sound too natural - so classic verb is nice

but i still wanna try that lexicon reverb

Still i thought it was funny to see impulses of the classic verb - very odd - mc 6000 i understand - classic verb i dont

This afternoon I've sold my beautiful Lexicon MPX100 : why? because I found(Thanks to Kvr effects database) the ASTONISHING "Ambience",which is far better and gives me those ambiences I couldn't find in "Freeverb"."Classic Reverb" is also very good and less CPU hungry,but "Ambience" is in my opinion the best.

ambience is very nice - but i started this thread to get people to pester lexicon into releasing their reverb - so i dont have to switch to sonar -cos i cant be bothered learning all the controls and work arounds for yet another package

so if you dont start speaking about (or to) lexicon im gonna sulk !

All i have to do is change the thread name to donkey tugger Blows 2 or something equally salacious and itll get closed

you have been warned !

Uh.. you CAN change the predelay in SIR! Of course.. Predelay is only the delaying of the reverb in general and SIR sure has a setting called Predelay. It's such a vital setting that convolution would be useless without it.. heck any reverb would be. If you mean delay for the late reflections relative to the early reflections then you're out of luck using 1 impulse but it can be done running 2 SIRs in series (which gives 2x the latency hehe).

EDIT: Duh, just re-read your post ericj23 and I was too quick to answer again . Now I see what you mean and I agree, SIR does not work for what you need.
Tempo syncing the early reflections has nothing to do with PreDelay though. Getting the jargon right helps in avoiding misunderstandings (However there is no excuse for me not reading your post thoroughly, my apologies ).


Btw. I wont go into details where and when I heard the Pantheon but I warn you, do NOT expect too much of the Lexicon Pantheon reverb (let me rephrase that.. it sucks ). Just for the record, lexicon has some pretty bad hardware reverbs out there too (in the budget range).

Cheers,
bManic

bmanic wrote:

Btw. I wont go into details where and when I heard the Pantheon but I warn you, do NOT expect too much of the Lexicon Pantheon reverb (let me rephrase that.. it sucks ).

Interesting. I've been using it since Wednesday and I think it's the best software reverb I've used. I also have the UAD-1 DreamVerb, which isn't too bad, but it takes up a lot of DSP on the card. I don't have any hardware reverbs around to compare it to, so I can't comment on that.

The Lexicon can sound pretty bad with some settings. I read a post on the SONAR newsgroup in which someone tested it on a sharp percussive sound to see what it sounded like. He said that no matter how high he turned up the density it sounded like a ball bearing rolling around in a tin can (or something like that.) I spent some time tweaking the Pantheon and I found that for percussive sounds it generally sounds better with the density down. These same settings that suck for percussion can work great for a vocal.

I guess my point is that if you dig in and get to know the settings you'll see that it's a pretty flexible reverb that can fit a variety of uses. Sure it will suck at some things with certain settings, but if you know what knobs to tweak you can get it to sound great on most anything. It sounds better than anything I've heard and does so at a much lower CPU cost. I have used Dreamverb and it is capable of some decent sounds, it's a lot harder to find the sound you are looking for, and it is really heavy on the DSP.

genghis wrote:

bmanic wrote: Btw. I wont go into details where and when I heard the Pantheon but I warn you, do NOT expect too much of the Lexicon Pantheon reverb (let me rephrase that.. it sucks ). Interesting. I've been using it since Wednesday and I think it's the best software reverb I've used. I also have the UAD-1 DreamVerb, which isn't too bad, but it takes up a lot of DSP on the card. I don't have any hardware reverbs around to compare it to, so I can't comment on that. The Lexicon can sound pretty bad with some settings. I read a post on the SONAR newsgroup in which someone tested it on a sharp percussive sound to see what it sounded like. He said that no matter how high he turned up the density it sounded like a ball bearing rolling around in a tin can (or something like that.) I spent some time tweaking the Pantheon and I found that for percussive sounds it generally sounds better with the density down. These same settings that suck for percussion can work great for a vocal. I guess my point is that if you dig in and get to know the settings you'll see that it's a pretty flexible reverb that can fit a variety of uses. Sure it will suck at some things with certain settings, but if you know what knobs to tweak you can get it to sound great on most anything. It sounds better than anything I've heard and does so at a much lower CPU cost. I have used Dreamverb and it is capable of some decent sounds, it's a lot harder to find the sound you are looking for, and it is really heavy on the DSP.

Interesting indeed. The fact that it IS a Lexicon product automatically justifies comparisons to other lexicon product and it most certainly doesn't come anywhere near ANY lexicon product at ANY price . A mpx100 kills it totally. Anyways, I need to hear a true final version of the Pantheon (oops..).

Btw. in another thread here somebody saw a quote from the sonar 3 page that it is valued at over 400$.. incredible I say.

A friend of mine put it nicely: "If you want an effect that turns whatever you feed into it into an electric cello, then Pantheon is what you need.."

Cheers,
bManic

bmanic wrote:

You can modulate a lot of parameters but usually it's the pitch of the individual delay lines to create a lush tail.

Perhaps sending to a modulation delay with the reverb on the aux return will help simulate the effect?

Quote:

"If you want an effect that turns whatever you feed into it into an electric cello, then Pantheon is what you need.."

works for me - i love the velvet underground

bmanic wrote:

Btw. I wont go into details where and when I heard the Pantheon but I warn you, do NOT expect too much of the Lexicon Pantheon reverb (let me rephrase that.. it sucks ). Just for the record, lexicon has some pretty bad hardware reverbs out there too (in the budget range).

True enough, my suspicion from the beginning was that it's probably a software version of the MPX line, although enough people have given glowing reviews of it to make me want to try it myself. Even an MPX100 is worth having for the ambience setting (the guy who sold his for Ambience, the plug-in, is either inexperienced or skint) so I'd still like to see a Pantheon port even if it's only that good.

btw, you convolution haters will eat your words the moment you hear a Sony S777.

/me carves "smart + ambience 4 eva" on a tree

You'll all be sorry when you hear the Skywalker Sound symphonic soundstage used as a reverb chamber with a 50-foot 4000-watt Meyer PA on one end and top-notch tube condenser mics on the other end

(Damn, I really shoulda run some impulses...)

I *love* Ambience too..... but remember it is not exactly freeware, it is donationware. I'm afraid I am one of the very few (if not the only one) to donate some money for such a flexible little verb.. kick down $10 or $20 to Magnus.... open your hearts and wallets

I just thought I'd mention:

Much fun can be had running an astonishing 960Lexicon impulse in SIR through another plug providing gentle modulation.

Perhaps I'm being thick, but some of those lush Lexicon tails sound to me as if some bog standard chorus is at work.

"Perhaps sending to a modulation delay with the reverb on the aux return will help simulate the effect?"

Eric, that's exactly the approach, with ever so little pitch modulation added to taste. A bit fiddly, but it can work well.

We have some very fine hardware reverb units, but even then, the *only* one I would actually qualify as being amazing sounding is the Sony convolution box. The way in which that unit renders those superbly well sampled (and expensive) rooms is, to my ears anyhow, simply beautiful. It is a rotten shame it costs sooo much for all that loveliness.

Quote:

Interesting indeed. The fact that it IS a Lexicon product automatically justifies comparisons to other lexicon product and it most certainly doesn't come anywhere near ANY lexicon product at ANY price . A mpx100 kills it totally. Anyways, I need to hear a true final version of the Pantheon (oops..).

Yes you do because Cakewalk have said that the Release Candidate of Pantheon was buggy. You would be well advised to not review unfinished products -- particularly in such a hostile manner.

To say that an MPX100 kills it is just BS. Anyone who wants a legal way to hear this plugin should try the impulses on Noisevault, and make up your own mind.

Does anyone else here read the Sonar newsgroup? Does this guy remind you of the one on the group who complained about the Pantheon only to have it pointed out by Ron Kuper of Cakewalk that he was using an NDA'd copy without authorisation. The guy that then proceeded to go apeshit with everyone?

He's the only other person Ive heard comment adversely on the Pantheon (there was a bug in the Release Candidate which was fixed before S3 shipped) and he,too, was using a 'copy he couldnt talk about'.

Most curious.

I see a lot of talking about these great tail modulating hardware reverb units (shift-variant systems), but is there any software which can match them? Could Pantheon be close to such hardware?

I think that the reaction to Pavlov got a little over the top in the SONAR group -- he actually really liked the Pantheon, so unless he's very fickle I don't think it's the same person. He actually said:

"I have done an A/B comparison with 3 items of Lexicon hardware plus comparisons with other high end s/w plugins and IR of a 480 in the recording studio.
The Pantheon algos are 100% true Lexicon. The prescence of the audio is more marked and forward compared with say a Waves plugin which tends to lose the image within the reverb space. The CPU usage runs almost the same as a Waves per instance (10-12%). measured on a dual Pentium SCSI platform. Overall the reverb is stunning, wonderful,with real Lexicon imaging and identity..."

Point is that that a review of an unfinished product is totally without merit. Both Pavlov's and bmanic's were reviews of an unfinished product, and they are both totally contradictory assessments. I'd rather test the impulses for myself (which sound great) than believe either.

Durk wrote:

I see a lot of talking about these great tail modulating hardware reverb units (shift-variant systems), but is there any software which can match them? Could Pantheon be close to such hardware?

If you are on Mac OSX, and using a host that accepts Audio Units, then it is hard to better Apple's own Matrix Reverb (it's included in OSX!)..delay line modulation controllable in freq and depth. In most other respects it reminds me of Ambience (but which, according to Magnus himself, is *fixed* time line).

There still seems to be a lot of comparisons going on here between budget reverbs and highly expensive ones - really, how can a $400 plugin expect to sound like a $2-3000 h/w unit? I don't think anyones's being sensible if they're going to compare the Pantheon plugin with a PCM91 or better. But I'd still rather buy an MPX than any other unit that costs twice the price. And in that price range I really don't think any of the h/w units do the fancy modulation tricks. (unless they are multiFX units, in which case the reverb to start with is going to be pretty ordinary)

And somebody here sold an MPX for Ambience!!??? I'll just go and sell my MS20 and replace it with a Stylophone then.

I tried the Pantheon impulses at noisevault and was very underwhelmed by them. The PCM 91 "Studio Presets" uploaded on the 28th September sound much richer and smoother and have some really beautiful usable reverbs in them. I didn't find anything in the Pantheon that I would use but it may have been differences in how they were captured because the difference in quality compared to the PCM 91 impulses was very dramatic.

trock

Andrew Milne quoth I think that the reaction to Pavlov got a little over the top in the SONAR group

Ummm, did you see his reaction? Now that was over the top.

whyterabbyt wrote:

Does anyone else here read the Sonar newsgroup? Does this guy remind you of the one on the group who complained about the Pantheon only to have it pointed out by Ron Kuper of Cakewalk that he was using an NDA'd copy without authorisation. The guy that then proceeded to go apeshit with everyone? He's the only other person Ive heard comment adversely on the Pantheon (there was a bug in the Release Candidate which was fixed before S3 shipped) and he,too, was using a 'copy he couldnt talk about'. Most curious.

Andrew, whyterabbyt..

that wasn't me. Never been to the Cakewalk newsgroup. I did hear the release candidate version and I pointed it out didn't I, well kind of atleast Anyways, I just listened to the impulses and very glad I did. It sounds 1000x times better than the RC version. It actually sounds really good (not as good as the MPX series IMO, and nowhere near the PCM series but it does compete for best native reverb to date).

I have a policy of writing what I feel/hear and the release candidate sounded horrible. I'm very glad I was wrong about the final product.

I do know it's not wise to judge incomplete software and when hearing the RC version my first commet on the spot was "no way!! Gotta be a bug or something.. ". At the time of hearing it some people reported that their copy had already arrived so I assumed that was the release candidate that got released which made me point out my findings.
I know I'm trying to defend myself here but hey.. I'm not really a bad guy, really . I have NOTHING against Lexicon. On the contrary, I respect them highly.

Final Disclamer: I was wrong, Pantheon sounds very good, enjoy it you lucky S3 owners.

Cheers,
bManic

PS. I'm curious about what release candidate Pavlov had of Sonar 3 as the bug really made the reverb unusable. He probably had one where the bug was fixed (the released candidate.. eh ) I'm not kidding you guys. Steinbergs old Wunderverb sounded better than the one I heard.

I've enjoyed reading this thread - it's been more in-depth than I seen elsewhere. I think a lot of responses I read form Wednesay on have been unduly based on fooling around with the presets - which are a full-frontal assault. I was so happy I almost cried.

I was in studios in the 80's but I'm not up on the current hardware units, but I'm a reverb freak. And not having anything worth a damn until Tuesday I'm still pretty amazed by the Pantheon and am really freaked I got it so cheap.

I've hear criticisms that I can detect, but I think as more people use it for a while those criticisms will decrease. Ironically, what I'm not thrilled with so far (what I've not achieved)with the Pantheon the Sonitus Reverb unit's strength dovetails with - lush warmth.

I say I bought Sonar Producer for the "other" plugs for $80 and just got the reverb units for free.

Ok, why not, let Lexicon make VST fx.

But never dream of a 960 or any high class Lex !
That is a $ 10.000 unit.

For that use SIR and the impulses
A modulation ? Ok, make it yourself !
In my opinion its not needed.

But so what, you can stick to those crappy reverb plugs, I use the big boys reverbs....