I am in need of advice from any of you who might be aware of which (if any) mastering plugins allow for binaural cueing/positioning - like digital inverse filtering, synthesis or perhaps similar - in a dx or vst module.

What I'd really like to find is a dedicated one that allows a tight degree of variable and/or multi-point positioning without any frequency or amplitude degradation. Is there such a aminal?

Any help is most appreciated, as usual.

This is simply delaying the opposing side you want panned. Anything else will change the amplitude, and this does degrade it.

I`m not really too sure what it is your describing...but this site has a wide range of freeware.Maybe you`ll find it there.

Very odd spacial positioning thiggys.

http://acousmodules.free.fr/

Xander, are you talking about fractional sample delays here?

What is 'multi-point' positioning?

annode wrote:

I`m not really too sure what it is your describing...but this site has a wide range of freeware.Maybe you`ll find it there. Very odd spacial positioning thiggys. http://acousmodules.free.fr/

Yep - perused the site, as I have for the last two years, but haven't seen mention of any binaural cueing plugins. I have used various delays and spectral panning fx, but I was hoping someone knew of something a little more directly or purposefully applied to binaural cueing, especially one that might not degrade the signal input amplitude like some crappy car-stereo jobs do, so better mastering can be done.

It's not so much a 'time domain' effect I'm after, but more something that can also selectively remove certain redundant sound field characteristics that tend to overamp the mids, etc...

I have seen Aphex systems do the 'virtual concert hall' thing in hardware, using graphed multi-point sources, but I can't justify the $35,000.00 monthly rental - it'd be cheaper just to rent a football stadium..

Oh well...

Aleksey Vaneev wrote:

Xander, are you talking about fractional sample delays here? What is 'multi-point' positioning?

Hi Aleksey!! *finally a dev shows up*

I think you know what I mean - and you are right. Is there such a beast? Do you have one that does this more specifically?

I think Aphex called it that - but they somehow focused the individual mics from each source and in the control room you could literally 'joystick' your way around the room - sound positioning-wise - from a stereo source.

You could almost center a crash cymbal, for instance, and then send it to the back of the room without any degradation of the characteristics.

MAybe fractional sample delays are what they were doing in the Aphex??

I should understand what your saying...but I don`t think your giving enough specific/technical info for me to understand.

annode wrote:

I should understand what your saying...but I don`t think your giving enough specific/technical info for me to understand.

I guess more simply, binaural cueing is used primarily these days to, like, focus a fully-ballanced signal to a specific spot in a room from a stereo source. Some car stereos do this in a limited fashion, with the sound field aimed at the driver's seat. Home stereo people use it to make a 'sweet spot' in their listening room.

What I was after was something that allowed you to position the sound field in a similar way and was more selective in the mastering phase, in a plugin - so it would kind of be like a 'digital inverse filtering' vst plugin.

Early hardware binaural cueing synthesizers actually used acoustical maps of various brilliant sounding concert halls, etc. How they did this though, is beyond me - I'm not a dev, just a piano player

Thanx Xander.

As far as reflective sound position is concerned...I think of the "waves IR1".
If I`m remebering it correctly,you can ajust the aspects of each time reflections envelope characteristics in your stereo field.

More synthetic types like"SRS"for example I think may simulate it without reflections.

SRS I think is more phase invertive processing to give predetermined expansive positioning.

Anything out there synthetic, I would imagine would be a separate wave process,and not a plug.

You`ve got my interest now too!!

annode wrote:

Thanx Xander. As far as reflective sound position is concerned...I think of the "waves IR1". If I`m remebering it correctly,you can ajust the aspects of each time reflections envelope characteristics in your stereo field. More synthetic types like"SRS"for example I think may simulate it without reflections. SRS I think is more phase invertive processing to give predetermined expansive positioning. Anything out there synthetic, I would imagine would be a separate wave process,and not a plug. You`ve got my interest now too!!

Thanks annode, I will seek them out and give them a try.

Xander, probably you need something done by Spin Audio (http://www.spinaudio.com) - they have a 3D panning plug-in which should do what you are asking here.

Indeed, this can done by using fractional sample delays implemented using linear-phase filtering.

So, by 'multi-point positioning' you meant positioning each instrument into its own space?

Another solution here is using impulse responses recorded in many various positions. Possibly, HRTF impulse set can be also of use. But don't ask me where you can find these - I have not found anything of this type, instantly usable.

Well, that could something, impulse responses, you would only have to recreate one each time you move an instrument

What can be used too, but I don't think it's worth the CPU consumption, is a mesh model of the room and each new sound would be generated at its place in the mesh, and then the plug-in would give "life" to the mesh. But as I said, very CPU consuming

Aleksey Vaneev wrote:

Another solution here is using impulse responses recorded in many various positions. Possibly, HRTF impulse set can be also of use. But don't ask me where you can find these - I have not found anything of this type, instantly usable.

As an owner of SoundForge (and therefor Acoustic Mirror) I have a large set of HRTF impulses. Sorry I can't share..

Aleksey Vaneev wrote:

Xander, probably you need something done by Spin Audio (http://www.spinaudio.com) - they have a 3D panning plug-in which should do what you are asking here. Indeed, this can done by using fractional sample delays implemented using linear-phase filtering. So, by 'multi-point positioning' you meant positioning each instrument into its own space? Another solution here is using impulse responses recorded in many various positions. Possibly, HRTF impulse set can be also of use. But don't ask me where you can find these - I have not found anything of this type, instantly usable.

Well, I hope one day to see a vst plugin that would specifically address this better (hint ) mainly because it is of great value in composing pieces containing many instruments - like a symphony orchestra or large choir, etc.

We are all using some awesome samples these days of symphonic instruments and live choirs, so it would be nice to be able to get the 'realism' in the spatial acoustics now also.

Just maybe need a good, clean 'virtual acoustics modeling' vsti that maybe uses the same inverse filtering of home stereo 'binaural synths' only better and with DAW-based mastering in mind.

Hey OK - Thanks guys. I'll tryout the spinaudio stuff.

Aleksey Vaneev wrote:

Indeed, this can done by using fractional sample delays implemented using linear-phase filtering.

I'd love for Voxengo to try this one day Aleksey

Miles1981 wrote:

Well, that could something, impulse responses, you would only have to recreate one each time you move an instrument What can be used too, but I don't think it's worth the CPU consumption, is a mesh model of the room and each new sound would be generated at its place in the mesh, and then the plug-in would give "life" to the mesh. But as I said, very CPU consuming

I guess maybe when we all get the next gen of CPUs, we might see stuff like that. It's just a pity that you get such great samples out there but they are either 'dry-mixed' or come with their own set of room acoustics, which carry over all sorts of weird sound-field characteristics into your mix.

Google 'Auralisation'.

For (cooledit) plug-ins try here.

nuffink wrote:

Google 'Auralisation'. For (cooledit) plug-ins try here.

Seems like their stuff is only 'Cooledit compatible' ? I use Sequoia/Samplitude Pro.

Anyway, I think I'm going to try:

Acoustic Mirror™

Xander wrote:

nuffink wrote: Google 'Auralisation'. For (cooledit) plug-ins try here. Seems like their stuff is only 'Cooledit compatible' ? I use Sequoia/Samplitude Pro. Anyway, I think I'm going to try: Acoustic Mirror™

Good luck. Whatever you decide to use pay close attention to the windowing or you will hear an unacceptable rise in the noise floor.