Hi there -

I've been doing a lot of work with Waves L1 Ultramaximizer, but find that it introduces some artifacts and makes things sound very "stepped on" (in a bad way) - anyone have any other recommendations for limiters, something that might sound a bit more transparent, but still allow for that peaking of lower volume sounds and whatnot?

Thanks for any insight!

The free TLS maximizer is very good. Waves L1 is shit.

Waves L2, Voxengo Elephant 2.0 and iZotope Ozone 3 are the best mastering limiters.

You can try KADL, which I also use myself.

www.ihsan-vst.com

-Blue Days


PS: Here's an alternative setting too.

Lookahead: 0.56
AntiTHD: 0.208
Release: 0.53

I use the Voxengo Elephant on everything. Short of hardware, I don't think I have used anything better:

http://www.voxengo.com/elephant/

Another vote for Ozone 3 here as well.

Devon

Another big up for the Elephant here. It's fab.

Elephant 2. No contest (at the moment).

I have to agree that Voxengo's Elephant 2.0 and it's new EL-2 mode is amazing.

Cheers!
bManic

Anybody use Vintage Warmer as a limiter?

chagzuki wrote:

The free TLS maximizer is very good. Waves L1 is shit.

I like TLs Maximizer aswell.

Vintage Warmer works really well as a limiter, but colors ths sound in a good way. Vintage Warmer can drive a sound in a way I've not scene in others.

Ozone 3 limiter is fantastic. I use it all the time.

I have yet to try Elephant, but I want to as soon as I get a chance.

dw

Ahhhh.. we're going to start listing all the limiters... but I have been using the T-Racks VST limiter and it rocks.

Yeah maybe this should just be a poll thread. Everybody can vote for their limiter of choice.

A limiter will only sound stepped-on if you set the threshold below the RMS level. Elephant AIGC-1 and AIGC-2 I think stop this from happening too much. All limiter will work very well. The best limiter for this function is SawStudio Levelizer, Voxengo Elephant and Waves L2. These are the only 3 that work to prevent the many things that cause what you hear. There is many small things to make the sound bad too Be very sure the small things are taken care of in these limiters.

4Front limiter very good if you use it right too. I am still working to find how it works I see some small problem with it I will tell the developer when I can say my thinking better.

Thanks a lot for all the replies, guys - really appreciate it!

Alive In Chernobyl wrote:

The best limiter for this function is SawStudio Levelizer, Voxengo Elephant and Waves L2. These are the only 3 that work to prevent the many things that cause what you hear.

Wow, that's a very sweeping statement there. You've used EVERY limiter out there?

Devon

DevonB wrote:

Alive In Chernobyl wrote: The best limiter for this function is SawStudio Levelizer, Voxengo Elephant and Waves L2. These are the only 3 that work to prevent the many things that cause what you hear. Wow, that's a very sweeping statement there. You've used EVERY limiter out there? Devon

Don't get him started..

DevonB wrote:

Alive In Chernobyl wrote: The best limiter for this function is SawStudio Levelizer, Voxengo Elephant and Waves L2. These are the only 3 that work to prevent the many things that cause what you hear. Wow, that's a very sweeping statement there. You've used EVERY limiter out there? Devon

I have not used every. I have spoken with many developer and done many test of my own. The plugin I have not used myself I speak with developer to see basic idea of how this works. You can do this too. Study electronics and DSP and learn best testing methods. The last method is always the ear with the eyes closed

Only those 3 use special gain structure, oversampling and adapting attack and release. Each has more special features to their own too. You can look at this like the new NyquistEQ.

This does not mean other Limiter will not sound great I only make a statement that answers the question. You can use any limiter to prevent what this user has problem with. The limiter I mention fix this problem without your thinking of these things

sickle666 wrote:

DevonB wrote: Alive In Chernobyl wrote: The best limiter for this function is SawStudio Levelizer, Voxengo Elephant and Waves L2. These are the only 3 that work to prevent the many things that cause what you hear. Wow, that's a very sweeping statement there. You've used EVERY limiter out there? Devon Don't get him started..

I am learning to be more careful and simple in my words

Alive In Chernobyl wrote:

Only those 3 use special gain structure, oversampling and adapting attack and release.

Hey, Alive In Chernobyl. Have you tried Ozone 3? It also uses oversampling to detect inter-sample peak levels, Intelligent Release Control technology, and several other tricks. I'd be interested in talking to you on this.

I also mention www.sinusweb.de

The PeakCompressor give you visual display like SawStudio Levelizer. This help you to not set theshold below RMS. RMS will closely be seen as the full part lower than peak. This visual help you make better settings

This limiter also use adapting release set attack. Not good for some signals This may be good for you even without

Alexey Lukin wrote:

Alive In Chernobyl wrote: Only those 3 use special gain structure, oversampling and adapting attack and release. Hey, Alive In Chernobyl. Have you tried Ozone 3? It also uses oversampling to detect inter-sample peak levels, Intelligent Release Control technology, and several other tricks. I'd be interested in talking to you on this.

Yes Aleksey. Would you like to speak with me on some problem I see with Ozone3? There is problem with shape of envelope and triggering of threshold This make Ozone3 very great on many things, but this stops Ozone3 from being good on everything like other plugin can.

Sure, I'll gladly discuss it. We can go private, if you don't mind. Or just e-mail me: lukin@ixbt.com

dusted william wrote:

Vintage Warmer works really well as a limiter, but colors ths sound in a good way. Vintage Warmer can drive a sound in a way I've not scene in others. Ozone 3 limiter is fantastic. I use it all the time. I have yet to try Elephant, but I want to as soon as I get a chance. dw

I reckon PSPVW could be awesome for many, but I can't get it to perform better than Elephant. It also eats up way too much memory on my machine (P4 3GHz) - no doubt because of it's rather deep GUI. For orchestral arrangements (anywhere from 16 to 64 tracks) Elephant's non-intrusive functionality is excellent - and you can't beat the price either.

I hope Aleksey will soon tell us what's in the beta version he just released

I must add Ozone3 does this things I mention as well I did not think of it at all till I was reminded, and I was not aware from the oversampling for peak detection in it.

My favorite limiters Levelizer, Ozone, Elephant I do not own any of these fully yet I just work with serial compression in paralell to make mix louder.

I'm pretty happy with the db-L mastering limiter:

http://www.db-audioware.com/dbl.htm

Did nobody mention the 'Classic Master Limiter' from Kjaerhus?

http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-series.php

It gets my vote, and it's almost a crime that Torben gives it away for free!

Alive In Chernobyl wrote:

I just work with serial compression in paralell to make mix louder.

Could you explain this technique further?

Wide Boy wrote:

Did nobody mention the 'Classic Master Limiter' from Kjaerhus? http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-series.php It gets my vote, and it's almost a crime that Torben gives it away for free!

I love anything that Torben makes. The Classic series is my main effects suite. But I still like TL's Maximizer much better than the Classic Limiter. It has a much cleaner sound to me.

Alive In Chernobyl wrote:

DevonB wrote: Alive In Chernobyl wrote: The best limiter for this function is SawStudio Levelizer, Voxengo Elephant and Waves L2. These are the only 3 that work to prevent the many things that cause what you hear. Wow, that's a very sweeping statement there. You've used EVERY limiter out there? Devon I have not used every. I have spoken with many developer and done many test of my own. The plugin I have not used myself I speak with developer to see basic idea of how this works. You can do this too. Study electronics and DSP and learn best testing methods. The last method is always the ear with the eyes closed Only those 3 use special gain structure, oversampling and adapting attack and release. Each has more special features to their own too. You can look at this like the new NyquistEQ. This does not mean other Limiter will not sound great I only make a statement that answers the question. You can use any limiter to prevent what this user has problem with. The limiter I mention fix this problem without your thinking of these things

Wow! Alive! Would you like to come and run my country? The UK that is. Not scotland.

The TLS maximizer is really excellent. I think people are put off by the fact that it's free, but it actually sounds fantastic compared to very expensive plugins.

At the moment I'm prefering TLS over Elephant, though I haven't looked at the latest beta.

Soundwise you can get quite close to elephant if you put the freebie (still with ugly interface) tubeamp before TLSmaximizer. It steps out of speakers a bit and makes tops a bit more sugary. I have this on other computer and it's cool. Double freebee trouble

Talking about limiters, are there any of them that don't introduce latency (live use..)?
i've tried Waveart final plug and i found it very good as well.
Does elephant introduce latency?
Thanks for any input on that

AD80 wrote:

Wide Boy wrote: Did nobody mention the 'Classic Master Limiter' from Kjaerhus? http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-series.php It gets my vote, and it's almost a crime that Torben gives it away for free! I love anything that Torben makes. The Classic series is my main effects suite. But I still like TL's Maximizer much better than the Classic Limiter. It has a much cleaner sound to me.

TL's Maximizer works well, however, I found it didn't work on all hosts. Caused my copy of Orion to crash. Works in Cubase though.

jean-mi wrote:

Talking about limiters, are there any of them that don't introduce latency (live use..)? i've tried Waveart final plug and i found it very good as well. Does elephant introduce latency? Thanks for any input on that

Any good limiter, that limits without clipping the signal, needs a delay buffer to *analyze* the amplitude (envelope follower).

no_signal wrote:

Any good limiter, that limits without clipping the signal, needs a delay buffer to *analyze* the amplitude (envelope follower).

So analog limiters are not good limiters? or do they have latency too?

Torben wrote:

no_signal wrote: Any good limiter, that limits without clipping the signal, needs a delay buffer to *analyze* the amplitude (envelope follower). So analog limiters are not good limiters? or do they have latency too?

Analog limiters can be very good for a particular kind of sound, but they can't do one thing that digital limiters can do, and that is "look ahead" at incoming audio. Digital limiters can do this by buffering the signal so that they can analyze audio before processing it. To the best of my knowledge, no analog limiter can do this.

As a result, digital limiters can achieve that perfect "flat-top," "never-exceed-0db-EVER" level capping that we've become so used to in the wake of the Waves L1.

However, this also means that digital limiters have latency. Analog limiters do not have latency, but they also cannot "catch" every peak exceeding a set level the way digital limiters can.

Blue Tubes limiter anyone?

cheers,
Macmod

You are right Lazlo. I asked the question just to indicate that things might not be as black or white as stated by no_signal. Many people prefer the analog sound and there is no look ahead in analog gear as you said. Our own Classic Master Limiter actually also got look ahead but the beloved 1176LN on the UAD card has no look ahead and still some people are crazy about it, so you can not say that any good limiter has delay.

/Torben

Torben wrote:

You are right Lazlo. I asked the question just to indicate that things might not be as black or white as stated by no_signal. Many people prefer the analog sound and there is no look ahead in analog gear as you said. Our own Classic Master Limiter actually also got look ahead but the beloved 1176LN on the UAD card has no look ahead and still some people are crazy about it, so you can not say that any good limiter has delay. /Torben

Oops! I should've known better than to reply to a question like this from a knowledgeable developer such as yourself -- I didn't realize it was you who posted it!

You know it funny really. When I am working in the digital realm I still prefer the sound of Power Technologie's Optimizer in many cases. I originally got it (eons ago) because I felt it was a more musical limiter than the Waves L1, which seemed to be getting used on *everything* at that time.

Folks would ask for the "Waves Maximizer" and I would tell them I had it but liked this "other" one better. Nothing doing, they had to have the L1. They wanted to actually see that it was being used on their master.

Anyway, I could never rightly figure why Power Technologies ceased to keep up with their plugin development. To my ears the Optimizer did a very nice job of maintaining the stereo sound field and midrange detail, for a digital thingy anyroad. I always thought the L1 went weird in the top end and then everything just closed right up.

I remember hearing the L1 for the first time being demoed by some Waves guy and he was all excited showing us how the thing worked, and how loud you get a track with it. Afterwards I was throwing back some much needed coffee and this guy comes up and asks me what I thought. I said something like, "Nobody is going to want to buy that crap and put their music through it."

Geez...what a stooopid, stooopid, near sighted wanker I was back then...

no_signal wrote:

jean-mi wrote: Talking about limiters, are there any of them that don't introduce latency (live use..)? i've tried Waveart final plug and i found it very good as well. Does elephant introduce latency? Thanks for any input on that Any good limiter, that limits without clipping the signal, needs a delay buffer to *analyze* the amplitude (envelope follower).

Good envelope follower can be done with no latency. You need latency for look-ahead and filters. Look-ahead envelopes are not needed to make a good envelope section in a limiter. There are many good limiter that have none of this at all Digital and analog! I must say too that you do not need look-ahead to stop clipping. This is to prevent envelope distortions that are not really clipping.

I think torben has given this idea to everyone here what great envelope can be done with no look-ahead latency.

The truth is that you can use any limiter with best results if you learn to use the limiter well. Do not exceed RMS. Try serial limiter with each following of shorter attack. Use DC and high-pass filters.

Best of advice is to start with a mix that need little limiting to start. You can make a very loud mix with no limiting! My song I post have only 3.1db of limiting on them! They are even higher RMS than commercial record with same perceived loudness! It can be done Use your time to learn the tools to do your craft well. Please do not spend your time replacing tools that work not well as fault of the user