| Author | Topic: Filerbank: Quad-Frohmage or Antares Filer? | |||||||||
| andrew71 | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:22 | |||||||||
I'm looking for a decent filterbank effect. I've demoed both the Antares and Quad-Frohmage. The trouble is that I tried the Antares one a few months ago so it has expired and so I can't easily compare the two.
From memory I have to be honest and say I preferred the Antares filter. Even though the display is quite cluttered I was able to get some decent results with it - I particularly liked the pattern gate. On the other hand I know that the Quad-Frohmage is well respected. I've had a play with the demo and I just don't feel as in control with it. The presets that come with it don't seem too impressive. Knowing how respected Ohmforce's products are I can't help but feel that I'm missing something with the Quad... | ||||||||||
| CypherOne | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:23 | |||||||||
I haven't tried the Antares but I do own Quad Frohmage, which is awesome. That said if I was buying now, I would go for PSP Nitro....just to add to the confusion  | ||||||||||
| putte | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:23 | |||||||||
i really dig the quadfrohmage ..this and psp nitro are my filters ..
putte | ||||||||||
| CypherOne | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:24 | |||||||||
ooh check the rich boy that can afford both    | ||||||||||
| putte | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:28 | |||||||||
.. and i got them at a time when the nitro was 1299$, and the quadfrohmage (2nd hand) was 1199 $ ..
and before you ask: no, i didnt need to sell my mansion to get those. ha! putte | ||||||||||
| CypherOne | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:29 | |||||||||
I really want Nitro, so I suppose I should be glad the price has come down so much since the time that you bought it oh wealthyschnitzelmeisterburgenschloppen. | ||||||||||
| Markus from Tone2.com | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:30 | |||||||||
| andrew71 | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:30 | |||||||||
Forgot about the PSP one. I tried that too...but there was something immediate about the Antares. I got into it straight away and everything seemed completely accessible. I'm peeved that I can't try the Antares one again (legally) for just a few more days... | ||||||||||
| putte | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:30 | |||||||||
nitro is very special to me .. like a weapon. | ||||||||||
| spaceman | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:31 | |||||||||
I have quad, antares filter and psp nitro..
I'd go for the nitro | ||||||||||
| CypherOne | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:32 | |||||||||
more money than sense, or a secret crack-whore?  | ||||||||||
| putte | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:34 | |||||||||
yes, but you had to sell your spaceship in order to get those .. 
putte | ||||||||||
| griels | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:47 | |||||||||
I'm sorry, Nitro is fantastic as an effect plugin, but as a filter QuadFrohmage beats it hands down for me. Try turning Nitro up to high resonance and hopefully you'll see what I mean. In this situation, it sounds very harsh and thin to me.
Of course, there are plenty of things that Nitro can do than QuadFrohmage can't, and which it excels at. Just not filtering, in my opinion. My £0.02  | ||||||||||
| griels | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:50 | |||||||||
P.S. I love the PSP sound in general... It's not a personal thing, just a technical foible about one particular feature of one plug
The filter just doesn't have that trademark PSP warmth at high resonance.  | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:57 | |||||||||
Some news in the pipe :
Quad Frohmage update in august with stereo processing per filter (optionnal thus). It should also come with extra presets. This was the main grip against QF for AF users. I'd say that to make your choice, sounds is the first thing. For the rest, I think it's honest to say that QF is a bit more feature proof than AF (way more filters, can track signal to generate modulation, preset morphing and extended MIDI support amongst other key features). Also, AF makes it really tough to do some smooth manual automation (say a LP cutoff ramp up of 16 bars) because you'll hear the "step" or the automation due to the GUI implementation. All in all in Ohm Force we see AF as a cheap colourfoul clone of QF (although it sounds OK and is probably a bit easier to get, at the cost of what we think to be 'must be there features' for a filter bank). Of course this is completely partial
OTOH Nitro is a completely different baby. As always with PSP it sounds fantastic - but unless it has changed lately it's more aimed at soft rather than hardcore sounds. Once more it's not as packed with features than QF but it's smartly design on the DSP side and it's a very nice FX. One good reason to go for QF thus is the brand new cohmpletion offer . The idea is that owning one Ohm Force plugin allows you to get better prices on other Ohm Force products. For instance with QF you could get €50 off on the Ohm Force Experience or even €100 if you take both at the same time. (supposing you don't allready own some of the Ohm Force Experience plugin, in which cas it would be even cheaper).
Hope that helps | ||||||||||
| CypherOne | Posted: 21st July 2004 03:58 | |||||||||
Will the update be free to existing users Red? | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 21st July 2004 04:00 | |||||||||
Of course!  | ||||||||||
| griels | Posted: 21st July 2004 04:04 | |||||||||
Excellent! As an owner of Mobilohm, OhmBoyz, Predatohm, Hematohm and Quadfrohmage, I hope that'll apply to the new Minimonster  | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 21st July 2004 04:20 | |||||||||
Well, in a way. It works by propagation amongst several bundles. If you allready own what is a part of a bundle, you can cohmplete the bundle at the bundle's price minus what you have allready paied.
So in your case your best bet is probably to get all Ohm Force once completed with Minimonster:Melohman (i.e when it's available...) for the updated price of this bundle (probably something like EUR799, we'll see) minus what you have allready payed. That's a bit more that what you've asked for but with Oddity, Imposcar (a special guest in the offer) and Symptohm:Melohman at a bargain price, me thinks it's really something to consider
Of course, if you get the bundle now at the current price, we'll make sure you'll get the same discount when getting Minimonster:Melohman... Gee, I feel like a real sales man now. Ok, enough of commercial chit chat, if you want to know more mail this guy : webmaster @ ohmforce.com He'll tell you about life. | ||||||||||
| meister eder | Posted: 21st July 2004 04:38 | |||||||||
Nice to have a 'Shareman Filterbank', but I prefer to have a 'Sherman".
| ||||||||||
| spaceman | Posted: 21st July 2004 04:49 | |||||||||
 that's all I've got to say to you ..oh and 'birdy nam nam'.. but that's just some random words | ||||||||||
| spaceman | Posted: 21st July 2004 04:51 | |||||||||
RENT.. I rent it out well ok, I traded it in for this spacesuit | ||||||||||
| DevonB | Posted: 21st July 2004 05:13 | |||||||||
Then there's me who's never liked any of the OhmForce plugs. Too harsh, too dirty. AF sounded ok, but I didn't like the interface. Nitro I like best, but I also understand how to use it pretty well considering I did a good chunk of presets for it. Nitro is smooth and versatile, and once you get the workflow, pretty easy to dial in whatever you want it to do.
Devon | ||||||||||
| suthnear | Posted: 21st July 2004 05:15 | |||||||||
Yeah, nothing quite like that sherman is there? A great messy monster
I have had QF for some time and recently d/led Nitro. Initially I was very impressed but after a while this faded a bit. Whereas the different filter models (e.g. standard LPF vs SV LPF vs m**g LPF) in QF sound quite distinct, the Nitro ones sound pretty much the same to me. Also, Nitro suffers from a similar flaw to the Antares: there is a separation between the filtered sound and resonance, particularly at high resonance. It's like they're being created by two separate processes and then layered together. QF doesn't seem to suffer from this nearly as much and it's therefore a more pleasing filter to my ears. Doing A/B tests showed that QF is capable of considerably wider sonic territory, too. Where QF really kills, though, is in the modulation stakes and this makes it another beast entirely. Nitro does have that interesting matrix but unfortunately it is disabled in the demo so I wasn't able to explore it properly. In Nitro's favour, it has terrific flange/phase effects. And while the filters lack the character of those in QF they have a lot of presence and are very usable in a polite sort of way. Also, Nitro's controls are smoother - QF's knobs have a slightly sluggish feel compared to Nitro - and a more 'polished' (no pun intended ) UI. But I like QF's gritty style more anyway.
Red - since you're here  anyway - any chance of the QF update featuring either (or, better yet, both) the Oddity or Minimonster filter models? Seeing as how you've put so much work in them and that code is just lying around anyway? If you felt like it - I certainly wouldn't stop you - those models might then even find their way into Symptohm, too... | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 21st July 2004 05:26 | |||||||||
Yes. We have kept that for mobilohm
I second that.
Oh, I really don't. QF has subpixel technology which means it has the smoothest knobs on earth apart possibly from vectorials GUI (which neithere are Nitro or AF). Plus they have the flying faders features ("launch" them in one move), normal vertical control and fine horizontal control, grouped move with key combinations. And they DO have some sort of slight added inertia for a more realistic behaviour, but it's generally appreciated  More than all they're perfectly smooth and controlable, which few GUI really allows out there...
Smart questions indeed. We do have some sort of plans, but it's not completely designed. One idea is to create a Quad Frohmage Hardcore version, preset compatible, but with different filters imbeded, that would be available at low price for QF owners interested, and it may well happend this year. Another is to release a Moog filter separetely... or inclueded in the box... whatever. We have not decided on this.[/quote] | ||||||||||
| Kim (esoundz) | Posted: 21st July 2004 06:09 | |||||||||
Oh my god!!!!! That's like Farrari or Porche saying, "We're going to to be releasing a new version of our flagship sportscar, it'll be called The Fast Version" Seriously, I thought QF was overly excessive in it's hardcore-ness... But with "Hardcore version" it's like you're saying "you thought regular QF was hardcore? Nah - it's really kinda tame and polite. If you want hardcore, check this out..." For everyone else: QF can do non-filter tricks too: like flanger, reverse delay, ringmod, distortion, pitch-shifting, etc. Forever, Kim. | ||||||||||
| griels | Posted: 21st July 2004 06:42 | |||||||||
Wow, well, to me QuadFrohmage is capable of anything from mellow filtering effects (even at high resonance), through gently distorted/saturated sounds, right on up to grungification on steroids. Even at high resonance it can sound smooth to me, unlike Nitro. Never tried Antares (further, I think the demo has PACE protection which puts me off doing so), so I can't comment on that. Admittedly, some of the Ohm FX such as Mobilohm are on the grittier side of things. I find myself using Classic Phaser or Supaphaser alongside it, depending on application, but it has a secure place in my FX arsenal
As stated, Nitro is still a great effect... But I wouldn't ever consider the filter to be smooth, certainly not at high Q. It sounds distinctly digital to my (admittedly cloth) ears
Anyway, terms such as 'smooth' and 'warm' are all highly subjective when it comes to sound. However I think we can all agree that QuadFrohmage sounds rather soupy, and perhaps a tad irascible. | ||||||||||
| Ronny Pries | Posted: 21st July 2004 06:51 | |||||||||
Grmbl,
i just bought AF cause it has had the stereo capabilities over QF and now you're going to change that... Red Force, shame on you Will there be a step sequencerish kind of thing, too? If so, can i trade in my AF for QF hrhrhrh....
Ronny | ||||||||||
| DevonB | Posted: 21st July 2004 07:18 | |||||||||
I guess I'm also not a 'gritty', 'crank up the reso to the max' kinda guy either. Sometimes it's cool, but it's never been my main focus. That, and I never have liked their interfaces either for OhmForce hasn't helped. I'd certainly recommend them for the guys who like their 'grits' though.
Devon | ||||||||||
| loophead | Posted: 21st July 2004 07:47 | |||||||||
Andrew71, I looked at all three simult and bought two...so heres my three cents.
The antares can not do hard filtering and automation is not so great. The Ohmforce can do the hardest filtering, has lots of options. The prestes may not be so hot but you can tweak quite easily to taste. The PSP is more of a multieffect has a mellower filter effect but overall has the most use as an effect plug for all sorts of uses including great filter effects. The PSP is overall the most useful in daily work. If you want down and dirty go for the Ohmforce. If you want high end production effects go for the Nito. Dont even bother at all with the antares... Can you guess which two I bought | ||||||||||
| andrew71 | Posted: 21st July 2004 08:18 | |||||||||
Two copies of the Antares?
I think I'll be playing more with the QF again and maybe downloading the PSP demo again... Thanks for the info! | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 21st July 2004 08:35 | |||||||||
Gah, there is much better ta step sequencing since the beginning actually. You can use a Midi part to drive the filter - note only with note on events, but also note off, take advantage of the velocity, of the note to drive any parameter in the QF, from filter cutoff to reso, gain for gate effect, pan for stero frenzy... etc. See this a step sequencer +++ where you can copy and paste things, use long part. Also if you have a monophonic lead, it's a very convenient way to immediately boost it's filter. Note that AF also provide this feature (another thing copyed from QF...). The thing is that it NEEDS the step sequencer right in front of your eyes because else, as it can't generate note events out of the signal (one _key_ feature missing...) so all those ADSR wouldn't be able to do anything without the step sequencer. Funnily, the step sequencer ends up being really a toy compared to midi input, even on AF... To DevonB : did you try the classic skins as well ? | ||||||||||
| DevonB | Posted: 21st July 2004 08:50 | |||||||||
Oh yes, didn't even bother with the 'other' one. I remember feeling the controls were too small, and too much was jammed into one interface. I felt the same way about AF as well though. Just something about Nitro's layout that was more comfortable to me, which is probably deeply rooted in my hardware background. It's been quite awhile since I've touched it though.
Pretty much, it's always seemed OhmForce was for the extremes, and while I can find use in the extremes sometimes, I couldn't justify the price for something I wouldn't use all the time either. I've certainly recommended Ohmies stuff to others who are more into the extremes though. Devon | ||||||||||
| Muff Wiggler | Posted: 21st July 2004 09:22 | |||||||||
i think that there is at least one thing extreme about all the ohmforce plugins...
they have found a way to make LFO and ADSR management EXTREMELY simple, intuitive, and sensible, and allowing for an LFO on basically everything without any screen clutter. this system is EXTREME in it's pure brilliance. I don't know if they have patented it, but they should. In my opinion it is simply that powerful and unique. If they don't have a patent on it, i'm surprised that other dev's don't adopt a similar system, because it's the SMARTEST THING EVER I think that it is EXTREMEly smart thanks Ohm Force! | ||||||||||
| spaceman | Posted: 21st July 2004 09:26 | |||||||||
have you tried
 | ||||||||||
| andrew71 | Posted: 21st July 2004 09:27 | |||||||||
I've gone for the Quad...hang the expense!
Probably the biggest contribution to my decision was Red's posts to this thread, especially the information about midi input to the plugin. | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 21st July 2004 09:31 | |||||||||
Yeaaaaah !
I consider some ohmies should pay me a beer for that. | ||||||||||
| griels | Posted: 21st July 2004 09:34 | |||||||||
Word
Gri- 'Extreme' -Els | ||||||||||
| WillieJenkins | Posted: 21st July 2004 09:56 | |||||||||
The reason I think Ohm plugs are INDISPENSIBLE in everyones toolkit, is that they do the extremes so well.
90% of plugs I use, freeware or demos, I'm usually always wanting to push it further. Yeah, this phaser is nice, but I want it to go so hardcore, I'd be wondering what kind of sick person would actually use this in a song. Ohm does this perfectly, I love the fact that these plugs can be pushed further than I'd ever want them to go. I recently did the COHMpletion offer, and I couldn't be happier | ||||||||||
| suthnear | Posted: 21st July 2004 23:16 | |||||||||
Hmmmm - maybe it's the inertia. QF definitely feels like a filterbox where the knobs are still new and have still got quite a bit of grip. I suppose because I've always been buying vintage and s/h gear I am used to a more worn in model
I would definitely pay for a QF hardcore version. And If you're looking for any further filter types to round out QFHC might I suggest a peak at the Xpander | ||||||||||
| Robr | Posted: 22nd July 2004 00:17 | |||||||||
Quad Frohmage is badboy.OHMFORCE rule. | ||||||||||
| dreammaka | Posted: 22nd July 2004 02:18 | |||||||||
what are there copy protection schemes?
I really don't like challenge and response stuff. if I have to choose between those, I might choose one with easiest copy protection scheme. anyone knows what they use? | ||||||||||
| spaceman | Posted: 22nd July 2004 02:24 | |||||||||
serial for qf pace for af serial for nitro | ||||||||||
| Kim (esoundz) | Posted: 22nd July 2004 02:30 | |||||||||
No contest.
Forever, Kim. | ||||||||||
| andrew71 | Posted: 22nd July 2004 02:36 | |||||||||
Sadly my purchase of the QF went wrong last night. Credit card was charged but something went amiss from the server. I had an email from the Ohmies saying there was a problem and that they'll be back in contact today to sort things out... | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 22nd July 2004 03:18 | |||||||||
Ah well, this can happend. Don't worry thus, this is usually solved in the 24. Anyway, it's a good way to check out the support  | ||||||||||
| meister eder | Posted: 22nd July 2004 03:56 | |||||||||
I'd prefer to pay for a Quadfrohmage update to have all the different filter types in one plugin, so that you can combine them like hardcore!
Btw., Re: the Antares Filter. It's not true that it needs the stepsequencer to trigger the envelopes. They can be triggered or gated by MIDI notes directly. No triggers derived from the audio signal though, yes. I personally did like the sound of Antares Filter a lot, and it's the most easy to program! Yet it is kind of a one trick pony, more for animating and colouring the sound, not really for creating sounds. But then, who cares? Quadfrohmage is the original, the most versatile, and it comes from the by far cooler company... | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 22nd July 2004 04:07 | |||||||||
Well of course this is the natural choice, but there are some cons. First it would severely change the GUI, because you don't double the number of filter available without adding some switch. Not only would it be extra long, but it would turn what is something allready complexe into a space shuttle panel. Second, the idea of preset compatibility is cool. You can just use the same bank of preset, but it will sound differently. It would be a perfect illustration of what different character can bring to the sound, and probably fun to play with.
Actually that's what I meant (if you read my post in detail I mention AF ability to do MIDI driven filtering). I say it needs the gate pattern because as for QF using Midi to trigger signal is something you don't see at the first glance. So without the gate pattern most user testing the demo would simply not have been able to trigger any ADSR which IMHO is cheap... | ||||||||||
| Kim (esoundz) | Posted: 22nd July 2004 05:54 | |||||||||
It already looks like a space shuttle panel!!!
Forever, Kim. | ||||||||||
| meister eder | Posted: 22nd July 2004 06:13 | |||||||||
My thought exactly! But a fantastic looking merge of a 1950's and a 1970's space shuttle....
I guess the addition of four filter set select switches wouldn't make that much difference. I do understand though about the extra work involved in changing the GUI. The preset compatibility is a great concept indeed, but could as well be accomplished by adding a "snap isolate" function. Very elegant solution! | ||||||||||
| suthnear | Posted: 23rd July 2004 03:13 | |||||||||
Don't need to change the GUI at all. All the classic filter types have two "flavour" (standard and SVF) buttons and a slope steepness select parameter just under the filter select boxes: All but the moog... This becomes 'classic' or 'vintage type' and you can spread the parameters among the eight possible combos of these switches And you don't even have to worry about the compatibility because the existing QF plug will only look to set the moog switch on or off and this is the same as vintage[0] for the HC version
hehehehe | ||||||||||
| default | Posted: 23rd July 2004 03:46 | |||||||||
I have fromage (the free down load and it is really fun and capable of allowing lots of cool effects. so I would assume that that the moneyed version of their work is good , dont know!
the antares filter seems very, very cool. the demo from the site is spanking the plank! it got a very good review in....ah... I imagine turn it lose on some vocals with the rythm generators tweeking along. try the down load? www.antarestech.com/products/filter.html good luck | ||||||||||
| Timbre | Posted: 23rd July 2004 04:29 | |||||||||
I think there should be one more feature in the OhmForce plugins : a panel, window or view where the user can see a source-destination of all ADSR & LFO connections. Very handy for instant overview management of the modulations. | ||||||||||
| Timbre | Posted: 23rd July 2004 04:32 | |||||||||
Is Ohmforce planning a Compressor / Limiter / Maximizer thingy by any chance ? | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 23rd July 2004 05:15 | |||||||||
Uh dear Doctor, could you explain me that further ? I don't get it.
Just to make sure everyone's get it, we're not speaking about adding just one moog or one Oddity filter. The idea is more like 30 different filters and different distosion scheme. Just adding an "hardcore" switch doesn't turn us on as we feel it would be to small visually for people to immediately see the importance of it. Plus there are some technical problems (room to find in the skins - not easy at all ; number of parameter that would change... this one is very anoying because it means it wouldn't load correctly the current presets for instance, nor work in your song... yes, someone we can't really afford to do !) Rather than that we think about making a hardcore version of the skins.
Yes, this is something that is constantly discussed here. But is not as simple as you may think... To be useful, this panel would have to give some clue about the modulation parameters - because there is one modulator per parameter, so you can't just display "LFO1" or "ADSR2". If it's done via text (Attack value...Period value), that's a lot of text, and not very readable. If it's done via knob, or oscillo display, it leads to a technical problem as there can be up to 45 modulated parameter, so we would need a scroll box... for graphical elements... complicated stuff. All in all the current system, where a green light is displayed when a parameter is selected is the best compromise we have found for now.
Sort off. We are planning to make a stereo in version with a non disto mode of the predatohm, because it would make a killer Compressor/Expander. As for limiter/maximize, can happen, but nothing's sure. | ||||||||||
| Kim (esoundz) | Posted: 23rd July 2004 05:30 | |||||||||
Seriously, I'm pretty sure I'll be buying the Hardcore QF!
More filters and more distortions!!! Forever, Kim. | ||||||||||
| suthnear | Posted: 23rd July 2004 06:03 | |||||||||
Fantastiche...
Excellent - the lack of stereo is the only small black mark I would make against the otherwise entirely excellent predatohm... Ohmforce for presidents. | ||||||||||
| Amberience | Posted: 23rd July 2004 06:22 | |||||||||
Its not very complex, but I love the FilterONE freebie and the BCheese is also a great lil filter to work with. I've not tried any of the Ohmboyz stuff... they just seem a bit expensive to me... I don't like their GUI's either - far too convoluted for my tastes. | ||||||||||
| TheWall | Posted: 23rd July 2004 06:29 | |||||||||
Red, are you saying you'll be releasing another filter plugin? wow! QF already rules(love the funky skin to death too), can't wait for the new one. | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 23rd July 2004 06:30 | |||||||||
Well, not a completely different - just the same olf Quad Frohmage but sounding... nastyer | ||||||||||
| meister eder | Posted: 23rd July 2004 07:02 | |||||||||
Sure.
SHORT ANSWER: Sorry, I should have called them "preset load exclusion filters", because that's about what it is and what you have already in Symtohm:Melohman. It would be a "preset load exclusion filter" solely for the new filter set (classic/hardcore) switches. LONG ANSWER: I tend to call it "snap isolate", because that's what it is called in Reaktor. What it does is about the same as your "preset load exclusion filters" do: If you choose to set a parameter to "snap isolate", then it will keep it's current value regardless of what preset ("snapshot" in Reaktor) you load. So, assuming the "more than 30" filters that you are talking about are more than 30 in the sense of the 30 filters we have now, and not in the sense of the 8 basic types (incl. ringmod) we have now, then you would add a "classic/hardcore" switch to each filter channel, spread the more than 30 filters between the current selection scheme and assign them the same IDs as the current 30 filters. I assume the latter (i.e. all but the switches) is how you wanted to do it anyway for the separate 'hardcore' version. Now if the user choses to set the new switches to "preset load exclusion" (that's one other global switch you would have to add), and he would have set them to the hardcore filter sets before, then he would have perfect preset compatibility. He would load his old presets but hear them with the new filters. Still, with the switches not set to "preset load exclusion", he would be free to load previously saved presets where he combined 'classic' and 'hardcore' filters as he likes. BUT: I do see how tempting it is to release a seperate plugin to point out the importance of the difference, and having the freedom to even design a seperate hardcore skin. | ||||||||||
| whyterabbyt | Posted: 23rd July 2004 07:20 | |||||||||
The disadvantage of a separate 'hardcore' edition is that you wouldnt be able to combine filters from both types in a single instance...
 | ||||||||||
| Kim (esoundz) | Posted: 23rd July 2004 07:20 | |||||||||
Hardcore skin! Hardcore skin!
Forever, Kim. | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 23rd July 2004 07:22 | |||||||||
Ok, got it. There are technical reasons against it (keeping preset compatibility would be terrible... and probably implying some annoying downside for the user) although I agree it would be nice to play with.
Anway, the general idea of keeping architecture and changing sound is something yet largely unexploited in soft for now, and I think we have to invent something new along with user's comments like yours. Interesting times | ||||||||||
| spaceman | Posted: 23rd July 2004 07:24 | |||||||||
any chance of a toaster? | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 23rd July 2004 07:25 | |||||||||
Certainly... Or just let say it would be a bit more heavy, depending on your host. But sometimes cutting off functionnality can also a good way to bring fun, and then inspiration back, which is something we feel very sensitive for such a complexe beast than the QF. | ||||||||||
| meister eder | Posted: 23rd July 2004 07:55 | |||||||||
Now this I don't get now , since "snap isolate" is exactly what one would use in Reaktor to keep preset compatibility. Ok, the separate hardcore version will be easier to program, as you 'only' have to exchange the filter-types, but making that 'exchange' dynamic shouldn't be that hard? I'm not a programmer though...
While we are at it (annoying downsides for the user that is ) and you are at updating Quadfrohmage to stereo anyway, may I point out one major drawback with about all your plugins (but especially Mobilohm and Quadfrohmage):
The fact that the phase of the LFOs can not be synced to the song start. Especially when working with drumloops, but also with any type of rhythmic sounds, you can design great groove patches using the bpm synced LFOs. But then: As soon as you stop the sequencer and start again, you get a completely different rhythm/groove, because the LFOs start somewhere else in relation to the audio file. This is nice to get variations of course, but quite often it was exactly this groove that was so great, and one would like exactly this groove every time the sequencer starts. Adding a phase sync option for the LFOs would instantly push the usefulness of your plugins by 200% - for me at least; but I guess I'm not the only one.
Another thing, but it was discussed before, and I hope this will be in the update, is a copy/paste function for the filter channels (despite the possibility of ctrl-clicking on each parameter). | ||||||||||
| meister eder | Posted: 23rd July 2004 08:01 | |||||||||
Glad that finally someone sees the potential of this! SoundDiver was able to do this to some extend for hardware synths for years, and it's a great concept!
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| Red_Force | Posted: 23rd July 2004 08:45 | |||||||||
AFAIK, like many NI plugs (and most of the modular synths), Reaktor doesn't declare any parameter to the VST host - automation are made via Midi exclusively. This is one of the key choices any PI designer has to face at start (and one of the big rant about many PI standard, inclueding VST). VST automation has always been a must to us which has dictated our tech policy on this. Once you declare the number of parameter thus, you face troubles if you have to change it later... That's the why, grossly explain by someone who's not a dev
It can, using NRPN. It's in the manual... Now I agree NRPN are f***g tricky stuff for f***g midi nerds ... Last time I had to check the features I was completely unable to find out how to do what the Ohm Force's manual was asking, because it wasn't explained either in the host doc, nor in my MIDI doc... Also searching in the forums (including here...) only told me that apparently no one really knows how it works... LOL, MIDI! 
Anyway, I had to ask Ivory, who told me, and it ends up to be pretty easy to do (once you know how to). Basically you use one Midi CC to define what NRPN another Midi CC will control. Then you set a value to this Mici CC at a desired point in your song (in that case, LFO phase at start...). Apart from that, it's something not easily handled by the GUI, so it does make sense to have an "advanced" feature to be handled in an "advanced" way IMO. If you don't find how to... Well mail support, it's a classic | ||||||||||
| pummel | Posted: 23rd July 2004 09:04 | |||||||||
i am a bit vague on effects, and would like to learn more.
how do these filter plugs work ? is it midi-audio in (with keytracking options), audio out ? and what would be the primary usage then, to extend the sonic capability of a rompler / synth ? if so, would a post filter be more effectve down stream of something bright and clear (like an albino) as opposed to something which already has its own character (like an imposcar) ? if any of this is true, then some of us might be better off with fewer synths and more post effects in the tool box. | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 23rd July 2004 09:59 | |||||||||
Audio & midi in, audio and midi out in QF case - thus this in an exception, outside of OF ones few FX allow that (while it's a must for an instrument)
There are grossly two ways of using an FX : production (improve sound) or creation (design sound by changing it's character). QF allow both - actually compared to other filter banks it can do a lot to produce - although you have to know how sounds work. Thus creative use is certainly the main one when it come to filterbanks. It's typically used to create all those impressive gimmicks in nowadays production (such as filter sweep on the voice/drum/whatever at the 16 bars), give your drums/synth/bass/guitar a unique sound (everyone can have the same instrument than you but chances are very small that they put the same filter setup on it, for instance) or basically be the key item of your electro set.
Yes and no. If you consider a mono synth, you can set it's filter to neutral setting, put a QF as an insert, use the synth's part as a mono in and set the filter one to use the midi to trigger ADSR and at that point you have just replaced your synth's filter by another (custom) one. This is something really great to do, that opens a lot more possibilities. Thus if the synth is poly it's not the same, as its filter are per note, while QF would work on the global signal. It's also interesting (actually Symptohm is partially based on such a routing) but it's not the same.
Here at Ohm's we think than more than your host, that's your plugs that makes your sound, and that if you want to do things well, you need creative FX in addition to your instrument arsenal that do the job (which explains why we are doing what we are doing ).
While instruments are the basic of your set, only smart use of FX (apart of course from songwriting) while bring something really unique to your sound. To find something really new that works with a synth, you have to know the synth. Same with an FX. But with both, just by combinging presets you can quickly find fresh idea, then finetune it without being an expert. Something to consider depending on how you work and what you aim to do... Note in general that if synth comes rather often with embeded FX such as delay or chorus, it's a different world that will be bring to you by say an FX top delay unit... Basically, why not to dl a demo, plug it on you synth, play with it and see if you enjoy the ride ? | ||||||||||
| Muff Wiggler | Posted: 23rd July 2004 10:12 | |||||||||
You just summarized, perfectly, why I love Ohm Force plugins. Combine this with the aforementioned brilliant lfo management system of the Ohm, and you are in sound heaven. Thanks again | ||||||||||
| meister eder | Posted: 23rd July 2004 11:13 | |||||||||
Understood. Makes sense.
Well thanks alot! NRPN ! Yeah, I see it now right at the bottom of the manual...
To be honest, I've spent enough of my lifetime building needless MIDI toys in Logic's environment and setting up editors for hardware synths, even wasted time creating my own adaptions in Sounddiver - reading SysEx implementation charts as bed lecture ... but now I want to make music!
Certainly for plugins that are predestined for creating rhythmic effects locking the LFO phase is not an expert feature but an essential one and needs to be there right in front of your eyes. And I really can't see what would be the difficult part to be handled by the GUI about this. Have a look at Xphraze, they've done it. No, really, this time I can't follow your argument. To me it seems you absolutely underestimate the power of this feature when being handled in an intuitive way (i.e. right in front of your eyes). There you even have a challenge for your programmers to make something unique [again! you've done it before! ] that no other plug has right now: Have the LFOs in free running mode, and when you like the rhythm it currently plays, hit a button that automatically sets the phases to the right degree relative to the songposition and locks them so that the rhythm would be the same next time you start the sequencer! 
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| Red_Force | Posted: 23rd July 2004 11:50 | |||||||||
Well, it's a design matter. I can undersand you see it as a key feature, but when you start on this, you realise you have way too much key feature for something that stands on 700 per 700 pixel with no panels. Then you have to cut things, and of course there is no "right" choice.
I think the reason why we did it this way is that if you want to use an LFO in a "composing" way (by opposition to a " general sound design way"), the best is to use an LFO creation tool in the automation track - something that a lot of host allready provide. All in all, we feel like it's the right way to do it, a bit like saying arpeggiator should be on host side, not plug in side. OTOH there is the annoyance of not having the plug sounding the same when you reopen the song (well, sounding the same, but not at the same time). This is really annoying, but with an FX you don't have the help of a midi sequence plugged in by default to give you a time reference. VST is not VSTi and it's not really design to tell the plug where is the play pos in the bar, for insance... So you would at least have to automate it, then make sure the part you listen start with the automation (else you... loose sync), etc... As you can see there is no convenient solution for an FX to handle this smartly - in any case you user will have to investigate things to get what you want. | ||||||||||
| Muff Wiggler | Posted: 23rd July 2004 12:26 | |||||||||
yep, I always use cubase's 'AutoPanner' midi plugin for this. It sounds like a panning plug, but really it's basically an 'LFO' plug. You pick the CC# used, you set the rate and pick the shape, and off ya go.. | ||||||||||
| pummel | Posted: 23rd July 2004 14:01 | |||||||||
i am leaning with the dr. on this one. how hard can it be to add a button to each LFO, "sync to key-on event" ? put it in the center of the LFO AMT knob, if space is a premium -- surely you can find room.
i know from programing synths that LFO sync to key-on is a often a make/break feature for patches. There should be a law against omitting it from plugs. perhaps there are work arounds; but we do not want to be struggling with our poster child plugs, do we ? | ||||||||||
| meister eder | Posted: 23rd July 2004 17:18 | |||||||||
That's not fair  . I am not one of the blind "I-want-everything-in-every-plugin" shouters; I consider this a key feature for this plugin (and Mobilohm), and not this and this and this...
You decided it is not a key feature when you wrote your book for designing Quadfrohmage - I think that was a bad decision. One of the very few. I do understand you set your priorities along your basic design philosophy (which basically seems to be not too far from mine, otherwise I wouldn't be addicted to Ohmforce plugins). However, one of my optimization points would be "little_effort_:_high_effect ratio" when it comes to parameter selection, and for me the phase sync for LFOs absolutely fits in that category. Well, different opinions we have on this.
Again different opinions. I'd consider this part of the effect program, because you could never use automation to duplicate the power of the countless LFOs that you put in your plugins. The LFOs are integral part of the sound design process and it can take quite a while to set them up to get to "this special very cool sound", and it's a playful, intuitive and experimental process to program your LFOs. I wouldn't want to re-program all this in automation on the host level just to get the sync right and then set all the LFO amounts back to zero as they are obsolete now. Yeah I know, there are the NRPNs and I could try to bring them back in sync by endless trial&error search for the right phase of each LFO...
 That's very interesting info... I wonder how Angus from FXpansion managed to get this right in the good old PhatSync VST then, or *cough* how Antares Filter syncs its sequencer to the song's subpositions.
I don't quite get this. What kind of automation do you mean, and what should it be good for? All there is needed is the LFOs to play along subposition info once their phase is locked.
Not with PhatSync and not with Antares Filter's sequencer, nor with lots of Pluggos, or - best example - u-he's More Feedback Machine, which's LFOs sync to tempo while the phase can be adjusted and locked. There must be some subposition or modulo data in the host sync info, otherwise all the above mentioned VSTs wouldn't work like they do. As for the user having to investigate things: When it comes to maths, that's the task of the computer IMHO. | ||||||||||
| Red_Force | Posted: 23rd July 2004 18:26 | |||||||||
Seems like I am not that much up to date on the matter then ?
Well, I am not the guy with the tech spec. I remember from the early days of Ohm Boyz that we had to decide how we wanted to handle that, but now I realise that it was four years ago, with VST 1.0. From what I remember, the choice was pretty unanimous. Thus it seems now that we could improve this. Note that we allready did it for Symptohm - it's just that no one has asked us to have a sync knob on older plugs so far (at least once they got the NRPN clue). Anyway, you're right to insist. I don't know if we'll add this one day to QF (or mobilohm, or Ohm Boyz...) but this will be a must for fresh new stuff - and not only instruments. | ||||||||||
| meister eder | Posted: 24th July 2004 03:12 | |||||||||
You can bet your life on that!
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| polyslax | Posted: 3rd October 2005 10:36 | |||||||||
I thought I remembered reading about this, didn't realise it was that long ago! Whatever happened to this idea? Red, you out there? | ||||||||||
| jasonsantiago | Posted: 3rd October 2005 11:31 | |||||||||
Heh, Ohmforce took over the thread with guerrilla marketing ;p | ||||||||||
| Beardedone | Posted: 3rd October 2005 11:59 | |||||||||
OuadFrohmage is interesting and can really twist things but there is a problem with the Windows version not showing the patch name when recalling projects in Sonar 4 & FLS 5. I work around that by labelling the wrapper - not really kosher fur menschen. | ||||||||||
| soma | Posted: 3rd October 2005 12:17 | |||||||||
And that one is pretty nice too! I hope it gets a GUI some day... | ||||||||||
| Hunter | Posted: 3rd October 2005 12:39 | |||||||||
QuadFrohmage rocks, Filtyerscape is worht a look too | ||||||||||
| Urs | Posted: 3rd October 2005 12:56 | |||||||||
Oh my goodness! I was almost gonna because nobody mentioned it
Thanks, Urs | ||||||||||
| Beardedone | Posted: 3rd October 2005 13:01 | |||||||||
Right on Urs Filterscape outstrips QF in my book and is so much easier to program. | ||||||||||
| Hunter | Posted: 3rd October 2005 13:08 | |||||||||
Actually Urs you'll see i was referring to the Filteryscape VST, which is like Filterscape but more unsure of itself. Its effecty, kind of goody, sounds expensivey. Ach can you tell I'm bored... Filterscape rocks, you don't know what your missing if you haven't at least tried it, its quite different from QuadFrohmage so why not get both
But don't use Filterscape VA as thats my secret weapon and I don't want anyone sounding the same as me | ||||||||||
| polyslax | Posted: 3rd October 2005 18:29 | |||||||||
I think you guys are missing the reason I revived this ancient thread, namely:
So... any word on QF Hardcore? | ||||||||||
| beatz | Posted: 5th October 2005 00:54 | |||||||||
would have loved to try 'obertone' stuff on my mac | ||||||||||
| ktelj | Posted: 5th October 2005 01:01 | |||||||||
maybe he will port it when its on intel chips- I was always waiting for a REFX filter for mac too | ||||||||||
| krushing | Posted: 5th October 2005 02:19 | |||||||||
I don't really like Antares. It's nice to use and all, but it simply doesn't sound too good to me, at least the way I used it...somehow the slopes and resonance was never quite there.
*does a little dance around the beauty of a plugin called "Filterscape"* | ||||||||||
| beatz | Posted: 5th October 2005 03:28 | |||||||||
well... my sherman keeps me happy in the meantime |
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