In layman terms, you know? If you've got a vst that you can assign effect after effect, the what's the use or advantage of having a vst chainer?

Best way to learn that is to try it yourself..

put reverb in front of delay & then use a compressor in that order & you'll see why fx chains are in a certain order.

There's a free VST chainer that was updated here a few days ago, just make a few chains & compare the order.

Side chaining fx in plugs like Spark's FX Machine of Bias' V-box can get even more compex routing schemes that are pretty wild..

Got the name of that chainer by chance?

if you're gonna experiment, best place a limiter at the end of the fx chain or you're gonna be sorry:

http://www.kvr-vst.com/get/1068.html

I find effect chainers particularly useful in mastering. when you can chain compressors, EQs and limiters together and tweak each individually to affect the overall output. you may find that running a particular compression setting adversely affects your EQ when you get to the limiting stage. or you may find that your EQ needs tweaking when you boost the overall volume to something substantial. with a chainer, you can adjust these settings on the fly while previewing the effects before applying them. I use the plug-in chainer that is resident in Sound Forge and run a host of compressors, a multi-band EQ and limiter(s), occasionally adding reverb to produce the sound that is closest to how I would like my tracks to sound, had I the ability to master professionally. but you can use a chainer in a nearly infinite number of configurations to provide new sound orientations that couldn't be achieved using the effects individually, or using them seperately one-after-another in a wav editor.

of course if you use a program that allows you to assign multiple effects to a single source, you already have an effect chainer at work. it just may not be billed as such. if you have a program that allows this, then follow sickle's advise and just play with it. you'll find that a flanger before distortion provides a distinctly different effect than flanger after distortion. a phaser before compression is not the same as a phaser after compression. and putting a delay before compression, reverb, EQ and chorus is not the same as delay after compression, reverb, EQ and chorus.

and yes... a limiter at the end may prevent unwanted speaker and/or eardrum damage.

*checks off the box next to "Long drunk post of the night"*

Good also for live use.

I also, don´t get it.
If you have a couple of inserts on your channel, why is a flanger before distortion dif. from a flanger before distortion in a chainer?

sometimes a physical model is easier to aiding comprehension.

Go to a music shop & grab about 5 different guitar pedals & lay em out in different chains & you'll hear drastic differences depending what's where when. A good example is reverb is almost always the last fx in the signal chain, but try reverb in front of the others & hear what that sounds like


[if they'll allow you that is..]

So you´re saying that a chainer will alter the sound in a way that regular channel inserts can not?

Sometime tommorrow some asshole with nothing better to do is gonna quote this, so lemme make it clear that I'm suggesting I do not know you hosts' routing scheme, or how you're using it with or without busses, etc, so you can use a chainer plug to see better what happens with different chaining combinations if your note sure if you're routing in serial or parallell.

That plug I meantioned is a perfect way to sample this. You can save one configuration & load another to A/B compare the difference. You're missing out on a lot of signal dynamics when you only use parallell processing..

If you have Orion there's a nifty little plug built in called 'Multi-FX control' that allows you the option of chaining up to 4 fx in serial or giving you an X/Y pad ala Kaoss pad that allows you to morph between fx, but you'll see that's another example of parallell processing.

As a guitarist, it's easier to understand signal chains I guess, cause you learn very early how this works in pedals or you have a real shite sound..

Another option is if you have Reaktor you can custom build your fx chains exactly how you wanna. That would be my BEST recommendation if you want Komplete Kontrol..(get it? snicker..)

Nice pun there

Well, I use Logic 5 and I had no idea that the inserts got the dry audio in pararell and not in serial.

Hmm, perhaps I could try out some chaining then!

mindless wrote:

Nice pun there Well, I use Logic 5 and I had no idea that the inserts got the dry audio in pararell and not in serial. Hmm, perhaps I could try out some chaining then!

You're in for a treat if you haven't used chaining..I don't use Logic, but i would imagine something hailed as the Dog's Bollocks like Logic would have some kind of means to provide serial fx chaining..I would be very surprised if it didn't, but maybe ask TTOZ, he's another Logic user.

Either way, any of the plugs I mentioned loaded into Logic will give you that functionality, but you may have a lower CPU hit if you use the native fx & routing schemes in Logic.

have fun!

Any good fx chainer´s besides the butt ugly one allready mentioned?

Spark FX machine

Reaktor

energyXT

just to name a few.

hmm...any free ones?

sidechaining in logic:

-on each effect you have the 'sidechain; button where a list of tracks you can route to it is available.

effects chaining:

logic allows 15 inserts in each channel, go to the drop down vie menu and choose "audio configuration". use the "hand tool". now you can drag and drop effects in any order from channel to channel and from before/after positions within the same channel to your hearts content. i.e. you can adjust the order any way you want even after the rack is full.

mindless wrote:

I also, don´t get it. If you have a couple of inserts on your channel, why is a flanger before distortion dif. from a flanger before distortion in a chainer?

Well in this instance the flanger probably introduces extra harmonics in the sound, which will effect how the distortion performs.

I think a good example of the power of chaining would be a tremolo. For anyone who isn't already aware: A tremolo switches the audio signal on and off rythmically. It's kind of like the gate function on a lot of synths.

Okay, now let's say you want a tremolo and a delay running over your audio. Well, if the tremolo goes first, followed by the delay then you will hear the echo while the main signal has cut out. If you go with the delay first, and the tremolo after then the echo will get cut out along with the rest of the signal.

The possibilities are endless. Grab all of your effects and a chainer and make some time in your schedule.

ttoz wrote:

sidechaining in logic: -on each effect you have the 'sidechain; button where a list of tracks you can route to it is available. effects chaining: logic allows 15 inserts in each channel, go to the drop down vie menu and choose "audio configuration". use the "hand tool". now you can drag and drop effects in any order from channel to channel and from before/after positions within the same channel to your hearts content. i.e. you can adjust the order any way you want even after the rack is full.

I use Logic Audio 5.51 and I have seen no indictaion of this...(15 inserts on each channel? )
That means not Logic Pro or platinum or anything.

Just the version of Logic that came with the BigBox offer.

or try thsi one:

Place a large hall reverb with a long decay in front of a 500ms delay with more than 50% feedback & be prepared to run like hell.

hey, sickle, i have orion...never opened the multifx control or band fx control before, never even nticed them....i owe you bigtime for the tip-off!

uncadave wrote:

hey, sickle, i have orion...never opened the multifx control or band fx control before, never even nticed them....i owe you bigtime for the tip-off!

Don't stop there, man! Check out the band FX control as well. That one allows you to assign up to 6 fx in groups of 2 over three user defined frequency bands..chew on THAT one for a few minutes..

The MultiFX control is great cause you can route the X/Y to a midi controller & have cross fading between up to 4 different fx in parallell, as opossed to simply runnig a serial chain, which is great, too. If you have some thing like that Novation controller with the touch sensitive pad, it's pretty groovy, instant built in Kaoss pad.

uncadave wrote:

hey, sickle, i have orion...never opened the multifx control or band fx control before, never even nticed them....i owe you bigtime for the tip-off!

sickle666 wrote:

or try thsi one: Place a large hall reverb with a long decay in front of a 500ms delay with more than 50% feedback & be prepared to run like hell.

SICK!

sickle666 wrote:

On each insert, the un-affected signal is sent to the individual inserts in parallell, not serial. That means that each insert is only handling the dry signal sent to it without any relationship with other fx inserts.

Not here. On Logic 5.5 insert effects work as they should. They're "inserted" into the signal chain - in series.

Mindless, the BigBox Logic version is limited somewhat.
Anyways, I don't think I'd ever need more than 4-5 inserts on one track (Logic 5.5 offers 8 inserts max., btw., haven't seen any more inserts in LogicPro either, but maybe I just overlooked them).

The idea of using a chainer is nice though.
Imagine your "normal" reverb just doesn't cut it, so you'd prefer loading a delay, reverb and EQ combination. Three times the action, but when using a chainer you just load this and the appropriate preset - there's your favourite FX combination!

And of course there's live playing...

mindless wrote:

I also, don´t get it. If you have a couple of inserts on your channel, why is a flanger before distortion dif. from a flanger before distortion in a chainer?

I agree. I don't get what the difference is. And yes I play guitar too

thornemaelstrom wrote:

I think a good example of the power of chaining would be a tremolo. For anyone who isn't already aware: A tremolo switches the audio signal on and off rythmically. It's kind of like the gate function on a lot of synths. Okay, now let's say you want a tremolo and a delay running over your audio. Well, if the tremolo goes first, followed by the delay then you will hear the echo while the main signal has cut out. If you go with the delay first, and the tremolo after then the echo will get cut out along with the rest of the signal. The possibilities are endless. Grab all of your effects and a chainer and make some time in your schedule.

But you could do this with inserts....why would you need a "chainer" to accomplish this very simple task.

sickle666 wrote:

yes, that's precisely what I am saying. On each insert, the un-affected signal is sent to the individual inserts in parallell, not serial. That means that each insert is only handling the dry signal sent to it without any relationship with other fx inserts.

Then you're precisley wrong. Insert effects do not run parallel to each other. They run serially...INTO each other...just, as you point out, like guitar pedals. If you want a "relationship" to the other fx inserts you use these neat things called busses....they should also have inserts as well...unless your mixing application totally sucks.

If you want to run effects in parallel use them as send effects.

An effect chain will allways be in serial, thats why it has the name CHAIN
Otherwise it would be CHAINS

I'm kind of confused here too. You're using hosts that don't let you stack effects in series? I have Cool Edit Pro and Sonar and have effects in series in both.

You can do it in Cubase, Nuendo, Samplitude, Pyramix, Pro Tools, N-Track, Wavelab, Guitar Trax Pro, Home Studio XL and a few others also.

So Sickle666, what the hell are you talking about?

I was only talking about how the fx chains were working in a chainer plug. I didn't make any references to any of those hosts or say that hosts did not have that functionality.

As I don't use half those apps, I have no idea how routing is done in them. I used chainer plugs as a quick & easy way to explain a chain instead of getting into busses & all that.

Later,

Quote:

So you´re saying that a chainer will alter the sound in a way that regular channel inserts can not?

Quote:

Posted: 31 Jul 2004 15:30 reply with quote yes, that's precisely what I am saying. On each insert, the un-affected signal is sent to the individual inserts in parallell, not serial. That means that each insert is only handling the dry signal sent to it without any relationship with other fx inserts.

Isn't that the answer that you gave mindless?

I'm just wondering, because it seems to me, an a few others, that you are implying something that is complete nonsense.

Watch out.. dont make 7xl break out his weapon...

Kill me now.

sickle666 wrote:

Sometime tommorrow some asshole with nothing better to do is gonna quote this, so lemme make it clear that I'm suggesting I do not know you hosts' routing scheme or how you're using it with or without busses, etc, so you can use a chainer plug to see better what happens with different chaining combinations if your note sure if you're routing in serial or parallell.

You must have missed that part

Go fuck yourself moron.

Why not post some more self serving nonsense, based on your own delusions of granduer. Seeing as how you seem to have something to post on just about anything, I think that it is you who have nothing better to do with your time.

ouch..

I thought spending time with you was a worthy endeavor..

I'll pull out next time.

Worthy?????



Maybe on your behalf, but definatly not on mine.

huh?bread...whats the point?

Fried bread, vurt. There IS a difference.

nope.
im against all bread products
even baps

moving on..thanks for putting me in my place, vurt..I'm glad someone finally did it

down with bread
nd on with the show

wtf?

Sure, the questioning / answering was a bit confused. But there sure as hell was no need to attack anybody in this thread.

Inserts works in serial
All host that can apply effects (plural) to a channel can do atleast some kind of chaining.

Distorting a flanged sound is not the same as flanging a distorted sound. Flangers are based upon delay(s), having a delay before or after a distortion is a huge difference.

Same goes for when using for instance a resonant lowpass filter. What is nastier? Distorting something with lots of resonance on the filter or filtering (with lots of resonance) a clean somehow squarish sound?

What do chainers do?

Depending on the chainer they can let you vastly increase the flexibility of your effects processing, synth layering et.c. et.c. Or they can just increase the number of effects you use simultaenously in hosts with fixed limits.

Do chainers affect my audio?

Nope, not on their own.

Why does sending my audio through a chain of FX1->FX2 sound different than from a chain of FX2->FX1

Because by the time the signal reaches the second effect, it has already been processed by the first one, which has already affected the audio the second processor works on. ie distorted flanging sounds different from flanged distortion.

What (free) Chainers are there?

Xlutop Chainer demo is fully usable unregistered, (except for preset saving AFAIK). Registration is about $40.
eXT is $39, and is a full host on its own into the bargain.
Console is commercial. Cant remember how much, but its the only one that also does DXi's. Ah its $54.
TC spark FXMachine (now discontinued?) Was about £100. Includes a selection of TC effects processors and synth modules.
FL Studio. Also a full host. Bout $100 for the version that works as a VST?
VazModular. Only hosts effects. Bout £200(?), but you get an amazingly great synth as part of the deal.
Vincent Burrel FFX-4(free) and FFX-16(116 EURO). Only hosts DX plugins.

whyterabbyt wrote:

What do chainers do? Depending on the chainer they can let you vastly increase the flexibility of your effects processing, synth layering et.c. et.c. Or they can just increase the number of effects you use simultaenously in hosts with fixed limits. Do chainers affect my audio? Nope, not on their own. Why does sending my audio through a chain of FX1->FX2 sound different than from a chain of FX2->FX1 Because by the time the signal reaches the second effect, it has already been processed by the first one, which has already affected the audio the second processor works on. ie distorted flanging sounds different from flanged distortion. What (free) Chainers are there? Xlutop Chainer demo is fully usable unregistered, (except for preset saving AFAIK). Registration is about $40. eXT is $39, and is a full host on its own into the bargain. Console is commercial. Cant remember how much, but its the only one that also does DXi's. Ah its $54. TC spark FXMachine (now discontinued?) Was about £100. Includes a selection of TC effects processors and synth modules. FL Studio. Also a full host. Bout $100 for the version that works as a VST? VazModular. Only hosts effects. Bout £200(?), but you get an amazingly great synth as part of the deal. Vincent Burrel FFX-4(free) and FFX-16(116 EURO). Only hosts DX plugins.

Well said Rabbit. And good info as well.

Yeah, thanks whyterabbyt! Good info. I forgot just how touchy some people are in here

I guess I'll just grab the EnergyXT demo and tutorial I have and get to work since everyone raves about it all the time.

Also the first chainer someone suggested was in French and couldn't figure it out. Thanks anyways.

Talking of chainers, has anyone ever done that dub feeback effect where you send a reverb / delay back into itself? I heard this on a track once and it sound great, kind of like surf swelling up as the feedback was automated. I never sorted out how to do this one - i just end up with ear bending screech!


btw, I'd have a look at Audiomulch. Its one top bit of software imo.

Tee Boy quoth Talking of chainers, has anyone ever done that dub feeback effect where you send a reverb / delay back into itself?

Sort of. Ive been building an effect in Quantum-FX called Ghostverb which does that on a high-pass-filtered signal specifically for accentuating whispering, sibilants, and cymbals.

Quote:

Tee Boy quoth Talking of chainers, has anyone ever done that dub feeback effect where you send a reverb / delay back into itself?

a lot of delays allow the option for this sort of feedback, that's one reason they usually have a panic button on them.

it's pretty easy to get this effect started with more feedback machine. it's a lot more dificult to get it to under control or stopped.
there's also a relevant discussion about the 'what difference does order make' in the help files for more feedback machine since it has the selection to filter before or after the delay
http://www.u-he.com/mfm/mfm06.html

tee boy wrote:

Talking of chainers, has anyone ever done that dub feeback effect where you send a reverb / delay back into itself?

try Klanglabs' Deelay, fantastic options for this sort of thing, I use it a lot

http://www.kvr-vst.com/get/722.html