Hi guys!
Now i'll try to give my ideas about using Energy in a live-way...i'll edit this post to add some more points if some new idea will come to my (sick and mad )
mind.

****1. Midi Part Ideas

*1a. Midi part recording assignable to a controller(on/off), midi note, or computer key (see point 2). It should have all the features of midi part triggering.
In this way every midi part rec. is activable by its single controller.
The recording should work in different ways.
Press a button (key/note/cc or whatever) to activate the recording , when the button is released stop recording and start playin (loop or single shot) or just stop. (this should be an option too)
Same things with a toggle method.


*1b. Midi part loop points controllable via controllers.
May be midi parts can be assigned to groups to modify
them or play/stop them in groups.


*1c. Midi part exclusive mute groups.
Just the way most drum machines works with Hi-Hats (open/closed gropus)
This can allow an X number of parts to be assigned to mute groups. So when a part is played the other parts
of the same group will stops.

*1d. Auto-Quantize with a strenght parameter in percentual (to adjust how much the quantize grid influences the recorded data). So the quantize will auto-apply to the recorded material...obviously this should be a kind of enable/disable thingie.

*1e. Have the opportunity to control the bpm for each part if they are'nt syncronized (obviously via midi too etc.)
Imagine the midi part speed modulated by the Envelope
Comp (..wow..)

*1f. I've noticed that if i change the loop lenght of a midi part when is playing the changes take effect only if i stop and restart the midi part...i'd like to hear the change when the part is playing.

*1g. Make different Midi Parts to record one note only or a range of notes (useful if playng a drum pattern by hand on your keyboard but you want to have different drumkit pieces assigned to different parts)

*1h. This is quite interesting.
Suppose you have a bounch of midi parts triggering some drums/beat stuff. Would be great if you can do live variation playing on your keyboard the actual notes, so when you hit the first note the running midi parts stop playin'...this one fall in the midi part grouping category

****2. Control Ideas

*2a. Realize a complete MIDI and Computer Keyboard Learn Architecture for all the Energy Functions.

*2b. A kind of Computer Keyboard Comp that have the focus when activated even if it is in background so the computer keyboard will work as additional controller..but the user does'nt have to open or select the window of the actual comp/plugin being controlled (Mkey by Valley at Adbe works just this way,
maybe could be a good idea to involve him in this project...anyway at this time Mkey does'nt works in Energy.).

*2c. Make the On/Off switch of the plugins automatable via Midi and Computer Key, using a little
built in fade in/out to avoid nasty clicks when activating/deactivating plugs.
Make the VSTfx on/off switch work as a bypass.

*2d. A midi switcher, with one midi input and a bunch
of output (4 or , a lot of keyboards have not a good implementation in changing midi-channels, so the midi ch comp is not the best solution IMHO.

****3. Audio Part Ideas

*3a. Make the Audio Part just work as the Midi Part (with all the live recording/playng/looping etc. features)

*3b. Make the Audio Clip Parameters (volume/speed/etc.), automatable via midi/keyboard/envelope/etc.

****4. Syncronizer Ideas

*4a. Syncronizer controllable via a Midi-Tap mechanism via midi cc/midi note/computer keyboard's key.

*4b. Host complete VST time info implementation in the main window.

i'll add more if i'll have new ideas

it would be good if you guys give your own ideas

thanx

lalo

lalo wrote:

2b. A kind of Computer Keyboard Comp that have the focus when activated even if it is in background so the computer keyboard will work as additional controller..but the user does'nt have to open or select the window of the actual comp/plugin being controlled (Mkey by Valley at Adbe works just this way, maybe could be a good idea to involve him in this project...anyway at this time Mkey does'nt works in Energy.).

Try Trollo!

thanx piranha..i'll do!

anybody has some ideas?
and you piranha?
lalo

lalo, my mind is set on automation at the moment.

But I'll start working on midi triggering and live stuff after I upload the next beta this weekend. It's the next big job.

v1.26 automation
v1.27 live stuff

cheers
jorgen

Hi!
Good to know Jorgen!
But anyway this is not to make pressure on you

When you will have done the great and essential automation work i'll be happy if you will give us your opinions.
I'd like to have opinions from other Energy Bros. if they have some

thanx for your work man!!

lalo

Hi guys!
C'mon nobody has some idea/opinion on this subject?
Let's turn Energy in the baddest live-monster in the universe
lalo

i would love to be able to play drum loops by clicking on midi keys. the drum loops would be built in the Audio Part (by splitting a loop sample, or by throwing in some drum hits) so that they could be played back at any tempo! On top of that, it would be great if they could be set to play with Sync and Hold settings...

So you could press C1 to play Loop A. Then while that's playing, press C#1 to play Loop B, and loop B would not start playing until Loop A started to loop again so they played in Sync. Then pressing C1 again would turn off Loop A while Loop B would continue to play. Ableton Live style I guess, though such a general concept could not be copyrighted

scam_artist wrote:

i would love to be able to play drum loops by clicking on midi keys. the drum loops would be built in the Audio Part (by splitting a loop sample, or by throwing in some drum hits) so that they could be played back at any tempo! On top of that, it would be great if they could be set to play with Sync and Hold settings... So you could press C1 to play Loop A. Then while that's playing, press C#1 to play Loop B, and loop B would not start playing until Loop A started to loop again so they played in Sync. Then pressing C1 again would turn off Loop A while Loop B would continue to play. Ableton Live style I guess, though such a general concept could not be copyrighted

Thanx scam!
If you check my midi-part ideas there's something very similar...and at my audio-part ideas there's a
"let it works as midi-part"
Ableton Live style is good...i don't think triggering and exclusive groups can be copyrighted

thanx
lalo

Can't this already be done with the MIDI part?

I use the MIDI part to play audio loops, live, all the time - just as you are describing. Except I put an Arp in between the MIDI & audio parts. That way I can use the randomize function to create new patterns very quickly. The MIDI part (set to toggle) plays a single long note to trigger the arp pattern while the actual pattern is run inside the arp. This makes for a very flexible system! I can also trigger envelopes in the same fashion to create various gate effects & other good tweakness.

Thats how drum machines have worked for years...Well my RY30 does anyway.

Id love that feature too by the way.

Jorgen, take as long as you want to do the job right.

Hi piranha!
..well midi part is a good comp right now...but i seriously doubt that it can do all of what i've listed in this thread..if yes..can you tell me how?

thanx
friendly and not seriously at all
lalo

The MIDI part can't do ALL of what you want, but I'll give my thoughts to each of your points...

lalo wrote:

****1. Midi Part Ideas *1a. Midi part recording assignable to a controller(on/off), midi note, or computer key (see point 2). It should have all the features of midi part triggering. In this way every midi part rec. is activable by its single controller. The recording should work in different ways. Press a button (key/note/cc or whatever) to activate the recording , when the button is released stop recording and start playin (loop or single shot) or just stop. (this should be an option too) Same things with a toggle method.

When Jorgen enables CC-automatable recording, then this idea should be good to go!

lalo wrote:

*1b. Midi part loop points controllable via controllers. May be midi parts can be assigned to groups to modify them or play/stop them in groups.

Nice one!

lalo wrote:

*1c. Midi part exclusive mute groups. Just the way most drum machines works with Hi-Hats (open/closed gropus) This can allow an X number of parts to be assigned to mute groups. So when a part is played the other parts of the same group will stops.

YES!!!

lalo wrote:

*1d. Auto-Quantize with a strenght parameter in percentual (to adjust how much the quantize grid influences the recorded data). So the quantize will auto-apply to the recorded material...obviously this should be a kind of enable/disable thingie.

somewhat useful...since you can already use quantize after the fact anyways. Not only that, you can choose which events you want to quantize as it is now!

lalo wrote:

*1e. Have the opportunity to control the bpm for each part if they are'nt syncronized (obviously via midi too etc.) Imagine the midi part speed modulated by the Envelope Comp (..wow..)

When Jorgen makes the pbm of eXT CC-automatable, then you will be able to add an eXT VST with your MIDI part inside that. The bmp of the eXT VST will dictate how fast the MIDI part plays, so you will be able to modify it that way.

lalo wrote:

*1f. I've noticed that if i change the loop lenght of a midi part when is playing the changes take effect only if i stop and restart the midi part...i'd like to hear the change when the part is playing.

This can be annoying, can't it?

lalo wrote:

*1g. Make different Midi Parts to record one note only or a range of notes (useful if playng a drum pattern by hand on your keyboard but you want to have different drumkit pieces assigned to different parts)

You can do this one already! Just setup a MIDI patcher before your MIDI parts.

lalo wrote:

*1h. This is quite interesting. Suppose you have a bounch of midi parts triggering some drums/beat stuff. Would be great if you can do live variation playing on your keyboard the actual notes, so when you hit the first note the running midi parts stop playin'...this one fall in the midi part grouping category

Not very doable me thinks - simply because of the way that MIDI parts are triggered with notes already. Although, I suppose if there were mute groups, you certainly could trigger a blank MIDI part (thus muting the one(s) with actual events) & play live while the blank MIDI part is playing.

piranha wrote:

lalo wrote: *1d. Auto-Quantize with a strenght parameter in percentual (to adjust how much the quantize grid influences the recorded data). So the quantize will auto-apply to the recorded material...obviously this should be a kind of enable/disable thingie. somewhat useful...since you can already use quantize after the fact anyways. Not only that, you can choose which events you want to quantize as it is now!

Yes, i know..but i'm thinkin about a real live situation..where you record your stuff on the fly and don't have the time to do mouse-like editing..you have to stay concentrated on your controllers and performance.

piranha wrote:

lalo wrote: *1g. Make different Midi Parts to record one note only or a range of notes (useful if playng a drum pattern by hand on your keyboard but you want to have different drumkit pieces assigned to different parts) You can do this one already! Just setup a MIDI patcher before your MIDI parts.

Yes, but you have your parts in different midi part comps is very difficult to organize everything..may be we can just think about a multi midi inptut midi part comp.

piranha wrote:

lalo wrote: *1h. This is quite interesting. Suppose you have a bounch of midi parts triggering some drums/beat stuff. Would be great if you can do live variation playing on your keyboard the actual notes, so when you hit the first note the running midi parts stop playin'...this one fall in the midi part grouping category Not very doable me thinks - simply because of the way that MIDI parts are triggered with notes already. Although, I suppose if there were mute groups, you certainly could trigger a blank MIDI part (thus muting the one(s) with actual events) & play live while the blank MIDI part is playing.

Ok, maybe i can think about a system to do it..i hope it will be implementable

Thanx a lot Piranha for all your opinions very very appreciated..i hope Energy will become a live monster...it will be the very first in this area with all this feature set!!!!

lalo

I think the next few months is going to be really cool, thinking about whats coming up in eXT.

I'm starting on the performer(live)/playlist any day now, and I'm doing some coding on the sampler now and then too.

I'm been witing to do this for over a year now. Thins is goint to change my way of composing, thats for sure...



jorgen

jorgen wrote:

Thins is goint to change my way of composing, thats for sure... jorgen

Yeah Jorgen!
I think the same!!
Live composing is a great way to find new paths in electronic mooziq!!
Well....i'm excited..and i'm here to give and take from you and others..ideas..sorry if they seems too much ..but i think is a good thing to talk about
great!!!and thanx
lalo

To me it's not only about doing it live, but being able to set up things quickly and work with "multiple arrangements". Here's an example:

1) arangement 1 - drums
- make 3 tracks with bd, sd and hats (ch + oh)

Go to performer window at bottom and set arrangement 1 to loop forever

2) add new arrangment 2 - bass
- add a few bass tracks with envelope to vst params cutoff and q

go to performer window and set arr 2 to loop forever

3) add new arrangment - chords
- make som heavy chords with 2 x VST's

set to loop in performer

- then I notice the chords is using lot's of cpu.
- simple freeze arrangement 3
- set to loop forever

4) assign midi keys to all arrangements, do some jam'ing, force girlfriend to listen to it

5) set up mute/exclusive/choke groups, sync groups (so that some arrangements always start at the same GCD

6) use the performer as a playlist to make a song, each arrangement is just a small pattern in a big song

7) what about variations within arrangement, I'll try to do that with marker/cue track



and of course, it would be very cool to be able to save arrangement's for later reuse.

cheers
jorgen

this is going to be very very VERY cool!!!!!!

jorgen wrote:

I think the next few months is going to be really cool, thinking about whats coming up in eXT. I'm starting on the performer(live)/playlist any day now, and I'm doing some coding on the sampler now and then too. I'm been witing to do this for over a year now. Thins is goint to change my way of composing, thats for sure... jorgen

SAMPLER!!!

NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A SAMPLER?!?!

... Right. I'm calm now.

Any info on this sampler??

I can confim there will be a sampler

jorgen

Anything like Reasons NNXT??

or Anything like Photoshop??

































































just kiddin'



LINK (for those that missed the sneak peek)

Quote:

and of course, it would be very cool to be able to save arrangement's for later reuse.

Sounds cool. Just checking, because right now all of this seems to be possible via midi parts (apart all the grouping stuff that will be *wow*). So if you say "arrangement", you mean something with midi key bindable loops area in the arranger window ?

Red_Force, I mean arrangments in the sequencer comp, as it can hold, MIDI, audio and automation envelopes.

Like the MIDI Part comp has multiple parts, the sequencer has multiple arrangements. And each arr can be triggered and sequenced live...

What more could we need

cheers
jorgen

Quote:

What more could we need

Use of velocity while triggering the parts ?
Sorry, never short of ideas...
For instance, either global velocity and/or groove and/or echo and/or midi compression and/or pan, whatever could be controlled by the use when he triggers part. This would add a loft of depth into live gigs

That is a good idea! I like that one a lot, you could do a lot of things that could be very "feel" based.

Quote:

What more could we need

... You pose this question to a forum of the most devoted enthusiasts I've ever have had the pleasure of experiencing ;D?

But since you ask: Making use of the 128 VST automation parameters that eXT currently doesn't use .

... And note audition of course .

Then I'm in heaven for sure .

//Tomas

Quote:

Making use of the 128 VST automation parameters that eXT currently doesn't use

Wow, didn't check that but 128 is FAR from enough. A lot of todays plugs use way more than that. A modern host can't handle less than 32K IMHO...

Red_Force wrote:

Quote: Making use of the 128 VST automation parameters that eXT currently doesn't use Wow, didn't check that but 128 is FAR from enough. A lot of todays plugs use way more than that. A modern host can't handle less than 32K IMHO...

exactly - and you have to use them all at once or you aren't a serious componist

Well, to be able to use 128 VST automation parameters is better than having 128 VST automation parameters that you cannot use . As a start anyway. Besides, seeing as eXT is modular and expandible beyond infinity, there is no amount of VST automation that would suffice to automate all potential plugin instances in eXT from an outside VST-host, anyway ;D.
Personally, I see this as the last thing that stands in the way of eXT integrating seamlessly in another VST-host (are there any more features that are necessary for seamless integration, you think?). Therefore, I think it's an extremely hot topic .

That and perhaps even VST automation inside of eXT (expanding the envelope functionality to work on VST automation as well as midi cc automation )...

... and ... the note audition ;D.

Oh, man, am I spoilt or what? :/

//Tomas

Quote:

exactly - and you have to use them all at once or you aren't a serious componist

Ok, load Quad Frohmage... use preset morphing... bang, you have used 640 parameters. Guess that makes a serious componist out of you

eXT doesn't have problems automating those 640 params.

But if you load eXT into Cubase, then cubase only can see 128 params, and can only automate 128 of them.

But thats why you automate them inside eXT instead with lfo's and envelope tracks and stuff



jorgen

how about making this bank of 128 parameters user-assignable ?
like : you have a matrix of 128 x N , where N is the currently available amount of automatable parameters inside eXT (vst(i),comps...),quasi an 'input-mixermap' for eXT.

jorgen wrote:

To me it's not only about doing it live, but being able to set up things quickly and work with "multiple arrangements". Here's an example: 1) arangement 1 - drums - make 3 tracks with bd, sd and hats (ch + oh) Go to performer window at bottom and set arrangement 1 to loop forever 2) add new arrangment 2 - bass - add a few bass tracks with envelope to vst params cutoff and q go to performer window and set arr 2 to loop forever 3) add new arrangment - chords - make som heavy chords with 2 x VST's set to loop in performer - then I notice the chords is using lot's of cpu. - simple freeze arrangement 3 - set to loop forever 4) assign midi keys to all arrangements, do some jam'ing, force girlfriend to listen to it 5) set up mute/exclusive/choke groups, sync groups (so that some arrangements always start at the same GCD 6) use the performer as a playlist to make a song, each arrangement is just a small pattern in a big song 7) what about variations within arrangement, I'll try to do that with marker/cue track and of course, it would be very cool to be able to save arrangement's for later reuse. cheers jorgen

Yeah Jorgen this is nice!
Anyway i think it would be good to think things in a
Live-Set fashion too,..a kind of live sampling and sequencing (audio/midi) stuff with as less mouse using as possible...i think your perspective and mine can be to slightly diffrent faces of the same thing
keep it up..i like this thread
lalo

Quote:

eXT doesn't have problems automating those 640 params. But if you load eXT into Cubase, then cubase only can see 128 params, and can only automate 128 of them.

Actually, that's not true. Try loading Battery in Cubase SX2 and click "More..." in the automation parameter menu. I stopped counting when I reached 540 parameters and then I wasn't even half way through. You can both see and automate a very large number of parameters. This is an important difference between Cubase and, for instance, Logic. In Logic you cannot see/automate that many parameters (I haven't found out how anyway ) and therefore it is not possible to automate, for example, sample start in Battery, which appears quite a bit down on the parameter list and thus cannot be seen and thus cannot be automated. In Cubase you can see all (?) of Battery's parameters that can be automated, including sample start (which I tend to automate a lot ) and therefore Battery sample start automation becomes possible.

On the other hand, when I load eXT in Cubase SX2 I can only see 128 parameters.

edit:
Oh, sorry, maybe you meant that Cubase has a problem with eXT in particular, and that that problem only allows Cubase to show 128 of eXT's parameters?
But since Cubase can show a lot more parameters than that for other plugins (such as Battery), surely it couldn't be Cubase's fault entirely, right? What could the reason be?

Quote:

But thats why you automate them inside eXT instead with lfo's and envelope tracks and stuff

True! That's one possibility of replacing the VST automation track of an external VST-host, Cubase SX2 for example, by eXT's LFO:s/automation envelopes. That is, if eXT could handle VST automation as good as midi cc automation, it would be a possibility.

<rant>
Now, some people may say that midi cc automation is as good as VST automation, but that's not true. Midi has a resolution of 7-bit (or is it 8-bit? I keep forgetting ;D) integers (?), VST automation uses 32-bit floating point numbers. The difference is tremendous, especially when automating sample start position in Battery and you wish to have surgical precision when choosing sample start position in a very long sample.

MIDI cc automation:
60 seconds long waveform
2^7=128 sample start positions
-> one sample start position every 0,46875:th second (if this waveform was a drum beat, I'd probably miss the beat that I wanted to offset to because it would fall between two sample start positions)

VST automation:
60 seconds long waveform
2^32=64294967296 sample start positions
-> one sample start position every 9,33200e-10:th second.


You be the judge ;D.

</rant>

Sorry for nagging

Anyway... Using the 128 (or more?) parameters and letting the VST-host worry about the automation problem and just forwarding the automation data, from the VST-host to the plugin within eXT, through some modulation matrix like plastique suggested, is one good solution, I think.
Implementing VST automation in eXT is another solution, that would also benefit all users of the standalone version of eXT that have no VST-host to rely on, except for eXT itself.

Of course, implementing both solutions would be the coolest solution of them all ;DD.


Best regards,
Tomas

I’m not yet an energy user yet, I’m just getting into the demo right now. I hope you wont mind me giving some ideas for the future live upgrade:

1. CC map for the sequencer comps internal mixer including levels, pans, send levels, mutes, solos, inserts on/off. Also midi control of mutes and solos of the mixer comp.

2. A special live play mode: when you select or press play on a new sequencer or arrangement inside the sequencer, the previously played sequence(r) stops and the new one starts in sync on the next bar (it should be configurable – 1, 2, 4, 6, 8…bars). It would be useful, for that mode, to keep the play controls of the sequencers visible when the sequencer itself is minimized in the main mixer.

3. Loop memories for the sequencer comp with direct access for each one (a loop list, or a new button appearing for each new memorized loop).

The next ideas are not exclusively live features but more general ones:

4. When you change a cc number in the midi parts composer mode , the cc view could automatically change to the same number.

5. When you want to change an audio output of a synth or fx, the moment you click on a new output the menu disappears so you have to go one more time to the menu to disconnect it from the previously assigned output. It would be better if the menu would disappear when you move the mouse away from it, so you can switch off the unneeded outputs right away.

6. To place a button for color selection of a part in the rename menu (sequencer comp), so you can rename and select a color with less mouse clicks.

7. Vertical zoom in the cc edit view.

8. A bypass switch for vst plugins in the main view.

9. Comp groups (folders) in the main view, and the possibility to select several comps and move them together.

10. Names for mixer channels.

jorgen wrote:

"v1.27 live stuff"

Yes it is the stuff I have been waiting for! I would love to have a program behave like a groovebox (or a few!) Meaning:

-Real-time MIDI mute of tracks(individual channel) in a pattern (multiple channels)
-Being able to choose witch pattern will play next bar

Additionnally:
-MIDI Muting and level adjust of the effect sends (great for dub effects for exemple)

All that MIDI controllable of course! Add to that all the controller routings to synths and sound effects, and the easy song switching/loading (by remote!) and it starts to be a nice live performance tool.