How do you put chords under the melody, when all you have is a monophonic line?? I usually write the chords and then the melody on top. I have tried to do it some times [and it sounded pretty good too, usually I play a chord with the notes that are mostly used in a bar] but how do people normally do it? Do you use cadences and perfect cadences and all that stuff or is it really just a bit hit and miss?

There are thousand of books about that matter and they all have their little thing to say about it. i'm sure that if you tried to read them all you'd end up with more questions than answers.

I think that the most important thing is to find a good balance between consonance and dissonance. Using only notes of the melody for your chords will make your song boring, and using only notes outside the scale of your melody will make it weird and unlistenable. A good way to find this balance is to remember that music is a matter of tension and release, as long as you can find the tonal center of your melody you can play with this tension/release thingy (trust your ears). There are many more parameters of course, but throwing too many theorical parameters into the equation can also ruin spontaneity. Theory is good, but once again you have to find a good balance in order not to abuse it.

Hit and miss here. Chords and melodies are not my bag anyway, i just love monophonic bubblings

But, when i do dabble i that area, i lay the chords down first, work out a good progression, then play the lead over the top, using notes use in the corresponding chords. Simple as....

Alternative: play chord ie C, then play a melody using all the notes in C, but reverse the sequence.

some musical genius will prob give you better advice tho, im no Bach

edit mmm, after reading the topic is doesn't match what you actually asking.

TristezaOrange wrote:

How do you put chords under the melody, when all you have is a monophonic line?? I usually write the chords and then the melody on top. I have tried to do it some times [and it sounded pretty good too, usually I play a chord with the notes that are mostly used in a bar] but how do people normally do it? Do you use cadences and perfect cadences and all that stuff or is it really just a bit hit and miss?

As Zouk said, is about tension and release(disonance-consonance), that defines it.

Find other notes to complete the melody, and more important, link one chord to another chord that has at least one common note, you'll see how the progression flow.

Use contrary movement, while one voice goes up the other(s) goes down, try to avoid paralell motion, it will make the progression poor. It sounds great if you move the bass up and the others go down or the inverse.

Consonant chords:

Major Triad (eg C-E-G)
Minor triad (eg C-Eb-G)
Major Major tetrad (eg C-E-G-B)
Minor Minor triad (eg C-Eb-G-Bb)

Disonant chords:

Dim triad (eg C-Eb-Gb)
Augmented triad (eg C-E-G#)
Major Minor tetrad (C-E-G-Bb) so called dominant 7th chord
Minor Major tetrad (C-Eb-G-B)
Dim Dim tetrad (C-Eb-Gb-Bbb)
Aug Maj tetrad (C-E-G#-B)

You mentioned cadences:

A tonal system has grades, from I to VII

In C major:

I = C-E-G
II = D-F-A
III = E-G-B
IV = F-A-C
V = G-B-D
VI = A-C-E
VII = B-D-F

Grades can also be "tonic" "dominant" or "subdominant", dominant has the gratest disonance, subdominant is less disonant and tonic is the release, the consonancy.

I is tonic

III-V-VII are dominant

II-IV-VI are subdominant

Common cadences are.

I-V-I (perfect)
I-IV-I (imperfect, called "amen" cadence used alot on gospel music)
I-IV-V-I
I-IV-V-VI-IV-V-I
I-II-I64-V-I (I64 means that is the tonic grade but on second inversion eg: G-C-E notice the bass is G which is the fifth grade of the scale, I64 is called K64 because Mozart used it all the time)

My suggestions are: Play with all this stuff I wrote, try to build some cadences, listen to Mozart or Beethoven music.

Avoid going from dominant to subdominant, dominant always point to tonic, specifically V to IV but you can go V to VI

If you want, take a short passage from one symphony and we can analize it here.

Now, about modulation, that's really long to explain, and I think I forgot most of it.

Matias wrote:

Find other notes to complete the melody, and more important, link one chord to another chord that has at least one common note, you'll see how the progression flow. Use contrary movement, while one voice goes up the other(s) goes down, try to avoid paralell motion, it will make the progression poor. It sounds great if you move the bass up and the others go down or the inverse. it.

Excellent advice, you won't go far wrong for a start off if you employ these techniques. Not sure that we should 'analise' anything here though Matais???!!!!

Thanks Matias for these explanations. I learnt cadence in a bit of a different way myself (Book : How To Play Piano Despite Years Of Lessons). This book rely heavily on the circle of fifths to explain common chord progressions, in fact it explains how some chord progressions are similar by showing the "jumps" between chords on the circle of fifth. I'm pretty sure that there's a way to link the logic using the roman numerals with the logic using the circle of fifths "jumps" but I must admit that i don't know enough theory to see a bridge between both methods.

Is not that hard. is a bit abstract at first but when you get the trick is very amusing to analise progressions by grades.

I'm always tempted to open a website to teach music composition to the community for free, maybe we can organize some (light) courses here on the chat and add documentation.

And mastering techies can organize other courses, I think is a great idea.

Going to add a lot here by using that lovely phrase by ear

I know all the theory, but luckily (at least I feel lucky this way) I don´t think about it anymore. I can just hear when something is wrong and when it´s right.
When I get an idea, I don´t often get it by playing around on my keyboard, but from noise in the shower or the street combined with the thoughts I have in my mind. Those of you knowing my music know that I do not make industrial music, so it´s not like I go home and make a "song" out of the sound of cars hitting the breaks
I guess it´s because there are so many sounds outthere in the world, that they so easily can form inspiration inside your mind, if you allow it. So when this happends - it can just be the sounds of some cars pressing their horns that suddenly, with those 3-4 tones lead me into a melody of several patterns - I get the whole idea inside my mind with chords and some basic arrangement that I of course refine later on when I´m home and with my keyboard.
Sometimes the chords are not as easy to find, and then I just try with different ones, also some that I´m not aware of if will fit, until it sounds like in my mind, or even better!
The worst part of all this is to remember the tune, cause it can take several hours till I get home, and often hearing a song somewhere on the radio is enough to make me forget it. I wonder why I still haven´t bought a little handy recorder thing into which I can sing
An example of a song I know that came directly "from the street" is "Mi mejor verano", downloadable from my home page.
I dunno if this was of any help at all...

Zouk wrote:

Thanks Matias for these explanations. I learnt cadence in a bit of a different way myself (Book : How To Play Piano Despite Years Of Lessons). This book rely heavily on the circle of fifths to explain common chord progressions, in fact it explains how some chord progressions are similar by showing the "jumps" between chords on the circle of fifth. I'm pretty sure that there's a way to link the logic using the roman numerals with the logic using the circle of fifths "jumps" but I must admit that i don't know enough theory to see a bridge between both methods.

Yeah is basically the same, but with other words, and useful to modulate to other keys by assuming certain chord is the V grade of another key.

For example if you play C major triad, it can be the first grade of C or the fifth grade of F, and F could be the fifth grade of Bb and that way you modulated from C to Bb which is a far tonality.

try playing:

C-E-G (C maj)
C-E-G-Bb(which is the dominant 7th chord of F)
C-F-A (F maj in sec inversion)
C-Eb-F-A (dom 7th of Bb)
D-F-Bb (Bb maj in first inv) (now you're in Bb)
and so on, if you want to continue modulating.

notice all notes are really close, you don't have to move your hand a lot.

Jazz and pop music is all based on the circle of fifths applied in deep.

Hi,

you can checkout www.completechords.com for the Complete Keyboard Chord Poster, a unique thing! They also have the Chord Progression Chart (not to be confused with the Circle of Fifths) that makes it easy to write and analyze good progressions visually.

Also think about that there are not only standard chords, what i use often are Ascending / Descending bassline (Slash Chords), for example:

C, C(add9)/B, Dm7/A, C7/G - Am, D(add9)

also never mind going back to the same chord within the progression in a reverse of it. Like this progression i just wrote:

C, Csus9/D, C/E, Am, Gsus9, G, F, G
C, Dm7/F, Dm, Am, F, F/D, G

C, Em, F, Dm/F, Dm6, Am, Em/G, F, Am/E
Dm, Am/E, F, G, C/E, Am, F, F/D, Gsus4, G

go and anaylize it

Here you can walk trough "How Chord Progressions Really Work" when you have the Chord Progression Chart http://www.completechords.com/How_Chord_Progressions_Really_Work/

altough you can see a copy of it for the Key of C / Am on their site and use it with that here: http://www.completechords.com/Scale_Harm_Deg_05.gif

Have fun!

Best Regards,
Lorenz @ XARC Mastering

Roman Empire wrote:

I know all the theory, but luckily (at least I feel lucky this way) I don´t think about it anymore. I can just hear when something is wrong and when it´s right...

I agree with you, and I certainly work the same way, but only when I need to harmonize something in the formal way this comes handy. anyway, tonal music is a thing of the past, or at least strict tonality.

The world is full of sounds, horn clusters etc... and working with computers gives you a lot more freedom, is hard to be uninspired these days.

The way I work is, put one note, then put other, it sounds good, put other a so on, when I want to go to another chord I only take in count if they togheter sounds good to me, no matter the grades or tonality etc...just timbres, colors, textures.

OMG XARC that's cool!

Guess I know more about theory than I think I do, because you made perfect sense Matias!

I think one thing you didn't touch on about 'accidentals' which I think he's probably interested in is, you can do an accidental generally for one note, then you need to come back, after you already have established tonality.

An accidental is a note outside of a scale. So a C scale of C D E F G A B, an Accidental would be C# for example. So if you've already established your progression say C G E C F C, then you could pull off like C F C# C, without getting into too much trouble. Try it at the very beginning though before your brain takes hold of the tonality, and it'll sound 'off'.

Also, he did ask about harmony, so try this simple harmony. Take your lead line, and try playing a 3rd above it. So for a 3rd, let's stick to 2 whole tones, (meaning half tone is one key above. C, the half step up is C#, C, the whole tone up is D. So for 2 whole tones from C, is E and 2 whole tones from E is G#, make sense?) Then after you got that, try placing notes at the fifth above, or a fourth below the tonic of the melody. So a fifth above from C is G, or 3 1/2 steps up, or 2 1/2 steps down to G. Try alternating going abovve and below the root note/tonic note.

So if your melody was like this

C F G F C, you'd have

CEG, FAC, DGB, CFA, CEG.

See how the 5th moved below the root? That's a 1st inversion, and if the fifth and 3rd are below it, that's a 2nd inversion. Same thing, sounds different, gives good variety.

Also, read www.completechords.com as they give an excellent lesson on theory too that's pretty easy to understand.

Devon

Couple of simple rules.

Start by harmonising with just I, IV, V.

Chords usually change on the start of a measure, but you can let a chord lie for longer.

At the start of a measure, the melody note is usually part of the chord. Other notes in the measure can be "passing notes".

Once you become bored with I, IV, V, substitute VIm for I, IIm for IV, and IIIm for V. The trick here is that these chords have two notes in common each time.

Some cadences feel more natural than others: from IV to IIm (e.g. melody plays an A, bass walks down from F to D) is more natural than the other way around.

Observe the circle of fifths. If you want to harmonise with IV - V, stick a IIm in between: IV - IIm - V (F Dm G).

Once you become bored with IIm and such, step outside the key. A melody of e-f-f could be harmonized as C - F - F, or C - F - Dm, or C - Bb - F (plagal candence). Or C - Gb maj 7 - Dm. Or ....

If the melody goes one way, let the bass go the other way. Melody of f - g can mean chords of F - G (probably Dm - G would be better), but don't let the bass also do F - G, instead use A - G. Or change your mind about the harmonisation, and let the bass play F - E, which turns the G chord into Em7.

If the bass goes the same way as the melody, let it take a larger interval: melody e - f, bass C - F.

But now we're getting into full-fledged classical theory. No parallel fifths and such.

Finally: once you master the rules, break them.

V.

XARC Mastering wrote:

<stuff that includes one gawdawfully long link>

Hey X, if you do

it shows up a bit cleaner. Now people have to horizontally scrol the page because of that link of yours.

Your posting was appreciated, though.

V.

Thats the nature of things, you never stop learning

Thanks.

Hmmm ... this has gone way beyond Tristeza's original question

The obvious way IMO is to start playing with two hands, simple chords in the left, and tunes in the right.

It's not hard to play slowly if you stick to the white notes.

Most anything works if the inspiration is there.

And once you've go a framework you can speed it up with midi, or tidy it up in an editor.

Good luck, Tris

the "white notes"

Exactly

I'm not good at melodies and know very little about theory, but this works for me:

I first do the chords, starting with anything (I, IIm, IIIm, IV, V, VI) in some sequence. I always use lots of minor combinations (G, Em or C Am)

Once I have something, I do chord substitutions, i.e. add 7ths or sometimes go for something out of the key to create a feeling of tention (eg. to go G B C)

When I have a chord progression I just play the guitar, playing slow so I can get some melody out of it. The usual pentatonic scales work the best for me with melodies (i.e. leave out 4th & 7th exept for passing notes). Sometimes I do the blues thing and play a different scale that what the actual chord is -most common play C (or Am) over an A major chord, but lots of other combinations work.

Convert the guitar track to midi using Alkof composer and edit anything in pianoroll that sounds bad. Play the midi track back with a string, flute, violin, cello or whatever font.

Get creative and, while playing that track back, improvise with the guitar again and just try to get "the feel".

Try to listen to the chords in your head.
When you create a melody, often you're simultaneously creating the chords behind it as well. You don't have to decide anything (because it's already decided) unless you want to experiment with chord progressions.

Kajiki wrote:

Try to listen to the chords in your head. When you create a melody, often you're simultaneously creating the chords behind it as well. You don't have to decide anything (because it's already decided) unless you want to experiment with chord progressions.

Think this is very close to how I feel about the whole thing. Nice description...

Well, thats a lot of info, thank you all for the great replies - give me more, I can take it.

I have tried harmonising in I-IV-V but I found it a bit unadventurous. I always throw a seventh or something in, to make it sound prettier. but I'm going to study the rest of the info!! Thanks.

Chooch, I know what you're saying. Actually, I do find the chords by ear, use what I like, I was just curious about what rules other people use. Always good to ask for advice. Thanks to mr. Matias too, top reply!

Maybe I ought to ask more of these theory-related questions. I hope that my questions are helping other people too.

Hi mate
One simple advice:

Learn all the rules and forget them again!

Normally, I write the lead and bass first, and then the harmony. I tend to use the bass as a starting point for the harmony, but I also watch for dissonance with the melody. My problem is that the range for the harmony and melody tend to overlap sometimes. It takes a lot of practice (for me, anyway). One idea would be to buy a songbook with material you already know from albums and study it.

choochcat wrote:

Kajiki wrote: Try to listen to the chords in your head. When you create a melody, often you're simultaneously creating the chords behind it as well. You don't have to decide anything (because it's already decided) unless you want to experiment with chord progressions. Think this is very close to how I feel about the whole thing. Nice description...

I agree on this. But not everybody´s born with the skill of converting their thoughts into actual music, and they´ll have to get some theory lessons.

what a fine thread!

I'm a "by ear" kind of guy, but [deleted because I have no idea what I'm talking about]

XARC Mastering wrote:

C, Csus9/D, C/E, Am, Gsus9, G, F, G C, Dm7/F, Dm, Am, F, F/D, G C, Em, F, Dm/F, Dm6, Am, Em/G, F, Am/E Dm, Am/E, F, G, C/E, Am, F, F/D, Gsus4, G go and anaylize it

If someone is interested i just played and upload this progression as mp3 for you to check out how it must sound (but played in Ab like originaly written, instead C, just use your pitch-offset):
http://www.xarcmastering.com/xarc-progression1.mp3

and also uploaded another one i recently wrote to demonstrate how interesting ascending/descending basslines are (also notice the major endchord that was played in minor earlier in the progression): http://www.xarcmastering.com/xarc-progression2.mp3

Enjoy!

Regards,
Lorenz @ XARC Mastering

XARC Mastering wrote:

Hi, you can checkout www.completechords.com for the Complete Keyboard Chord Poster, a unique thing!

Thanks!

This is a nice complement to the online theory course (the "free lessons" page was a good refresher for me) at http://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca

Doug

this is a good site, http://members.aol.com/chordmaps/index.htm also I can recommend writing music for hit songs by Jai Josefs

just wanna add another method to hamonize, which is
polytonalism ,
not very usefull for pop and rock maybe, but knowing
Tristeza music it should work <grin>


definition is music that uses two or more different keys at the same time, that is don't think by chords
but by different melodies, even in different keys,
running toghether. As long they follow their logic they create interesting harmonies whoich can be modern or archaic

Tris,

you may try playing (invent ) 2nd and 3rd voice over your melody,
and checking out what chords come out of it...

liqih wrote:

just wanna add another method to hamonize, which is polytonalism , not very usefull for pop and rock maybe, but knowing Tristeza music it should work <grin> definition is music that uses two or more different keys at the same time, that is don't think by chords but by different melodies, even in different keys, running toghether. As long they follow their logic they create interesting harmonies whoich can be modern or archaic

Amazing! I was thinking of doing this myself a couple of days ago - play two or more melodies, each on different key, together and see what will come out. Now I even know the formal name! Thanks Luigi.

TristezaOrange wrote:

How do you put chords under the melody, when all you have is a monophonic line?? I usually write the chords and then the melody on top. I have tried to do it some times [and it sounded pretty good too, usually I play a chord with the notes that are mostly used in a bar] but how do people normally do it? Do you use cadences and perfect cadences and all that stuff or is it really just a bit hit and miss?

Try out the amazing Jammer Pro 5 software which will satisfy your purposes (and much more):
http://www.soundtrek.com

@ XARC Mastering

This thread seems very interesting from the topic title and I'd like to read it, but it really starts to piss me off that people again and again post messages with those loooooooong URL links that screw up the whole page so that you have to scroll horizontally all the time to read the posts. Page1 of this thread is unreadable.

Lorenz, could you please go back and edit your post? To make it easy for you, just quote this message here and copy the "code" for the URL link and the link to the .gif that I've created here for you. Thank you so much!


http://www.completechords.com/How_Chord_Progressions_Really_Work/


http://www.completechords.com/Scale_Harm_Deg_05.gif

Hi,

very friendly people here!
i already wrote an excuse about that some replies earlier and edit the reply now.

P.S.: don´t forget to checkout my progressions at the end of page 2

Best Regards,
Lorenz @ XARC Mastering

Great! Reading the thread now
Thank you!

XARC Mastering wrote:

very friendly people here! i already wrote an excuse about that some replies earlier and edit the reply now.

What do you expect from a Mac man with a Dr. title in his name?

AndreasEhrhardt wrote:

What do you expect from a Mac man with a Dr. title in his name?

See, Dr.Earhart, there's a little difference between writing "could you please" and "would you please". The second paragraph of my post was not in anger (hence no evil/mad smileys), so I think Lorenz was not being ironic about the "friendly people"... (aber wir sind ja auch alle kein native english sprecher, so es konnte sein dass misverstandnisse erwachsen).

Sorry for the Off Topic.

Another site I've found useful is Andy Pollack's "Notes on the Beatles"

I think it's much easier to learn harmonization, particularly advanced stuff like modulation techniques, through real life examples...

For a couple of self-taught hacks, Lennon and McCartney were gifted and innovative songwriters... a lot of music theory folks put their best compositions up there with beethoven, mozart, and that bunch.

And since we all know the songs, it's much easier to follow along with Pollack's descriptions of what they're doing with melody and harmony.

-Garret

Garret wrote:

For a couple of self-taught hacks, Lennon and McCartney were gifted and innovative songwriters... a lot of music theory folks put their best compositions up there with beethoven, mozart, and that bunch.

Infact there was a TV program a few years ago that made a fake experiment. It was announced by experts that some new yet unknown string quartette piece by Mozart was found, and at a certain date there was the presentation of that piece, where a string quartette played it.
For everyone who knows a litte of pop music it was obvious immediately that what they played was just a clever transcription of the title "Yesterday" by the Beatles! Many of the classic music experts believed the hype though.

dr.wackler wrote:

(aber wir sind ja auch alle kein native english sprecher, so es konnte sein dass misverstandnisse erwachsen).

Doc, you´re almost a native german sprecher, but I think your beard makes some problems with that

AndreasEhrhardt wrote:

Doc, you´re almost a native german sprecher, but I think your beard makes some problems with that

Btw. doc, now I got an idea: aren´t you one of the ZZTop guys (I think that´s an old joke for you)?

Hi

1) Let's do that Theory@kvr, I think I could contribute in my small way

2)whoever said not to do subdominant after dominant was partly wrong. It wasn't allowed hundred of years ago but it's ok now (Sweet Home Alabama)... (blah blah blah)

I will be back

k

Matias wrote:

Is not that hard. is a bit abstract at first but when you get the trick is very amusing to analise progressions by grades. I'm always tempted to open a website to teach music composition to the community for free, maybe we can organize some (light) courses here on the chat and add documentation. And mastering techies can organize other courses, I think is a great idea.

saw this and read no further so sorry if someone else has already said it but yes
in fact matias do it now
stop wastin your time makin tunes n stuff for yourself or just surfin the net and make yourself bloody useful for once

of course you know im only jesting with the attitude,but my scentiment is true
we the people beg you to put together a site like this

soulata wrote:

Hi 2)whoever said not to do subdominant after dominant was partly wrong. It wasn't allowed hundred of years ago but it's ok now (Sweet Home Alabama)... (blah blah blah)

Anyone who says anything absolute is wrong, music theory is a map not a rule book.

chris

Quote:

this is a good site, http://members.aol.com/chordmaps/index.htm also I can

i'd just like to say thank you to quadrays for posting this, i'd lost the link to this site, and for some reason never found it again on google, glad to have it bookmarked again

here's some links to a series of chord sites, some interactive :

Chord House : Piano room : chords and scales

BluesBox Virtual piano chords

Rikki Adam's MusicTheory.net

Learn Jazz Piano

MusicPlay piano