Um, make that extreme Apple MARKETING innovation alert. Or Extreme CRAP alert! Has anyone checked out the site for their new GarageBand app? (http://www.apple.com/ilife/garageband/)

The way they talk about it, you'd think they freakin' invented the concept of recording music on computers. Oh the hubris. And the sad part is, many will see it and say "wow, thank God someone finally invented software I can do my own music on, thank you Apple". Oh well, I guess $100 is not too bad for a closed system (where's the AU support?) with a pile of premanufactured loops, for people who don't have any idea what they're doing. The worst part is that they could have spent that time improving their platform for third party developers who have the resources to make killer audio apps. No, instead they are compelled to come out with their own thing, which sucks compared to Cubase or Logic. I'm not strictly dissing Apple, I was pissed off by Microsoft in a similar fashion when they came out with their movie making software. It's like, why even bother? It's crap compared to just about any other third-party app on the market.

Okay, you can go ahead and flame me now. [/url]

!!!!!!! wwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhoooooooooooosssssssshhhhhhhhh !!!!!!

heh, that felt gooooood

Looks like the Mac equivalent of Acid to me.

More Apple Propaganda. Perpetuate the MYTH!

I think you're right. But that's how marketing works. By creating a need for a product. And you don't go about selling a product claiming that "this isn't a specially great or inovative program". But ofcourse we all know that this is nothing compared to whatever people inhere are using to make music, that be it sx or tracktion or logic or whatever. On the other hand i think it's fine that there are an app. that let's untechnical people make music in an easy way. Nothing wrong with that.
Kim

I started with ACID Music and it was downhill from there into mountainous debt so I have to agree with you this type of software is like sweets in the playground. Apple are the pushers and we are the junkies. Excuse me I'm clucking - where's my fuckin' dealer...

Uh, there is AU support for instruments and FX... obviously you don't know much about the product, so maybe you should try it first and then comment... Apple knows that people who use these products (DAW software) will not be impressed with Garage Band, but there are a lot of people who have Macs that have heard about (and longed for) Acid for years... Those would be the people Apple is talking to...The real question is why they didn't combine Soundtrack and Garage band and make one really useful product... Actually Garage Band is really cool, but it just runs very slow, and is poorly optimized... Strange since it came from Apple themselves... Obviously, they don't want to take away sales from Logic though...

While it is acceptable practice to use hyperbole which Apple has done most ads do not attempt to rewrite history.

It's always nice to hear music has been made easier for just about anyone to make but ACID is a standard at this point. Sony need never do another thing to it's product if it wishes.

In this case they hype is to loyalists and people who haven't a clue about specialist music applications along with a few people that need to have an ACID like clone. It's not an OS thing, it's that perversity that Apple uses to try and demonstrate to loyalists that they are cutting edge, even for you little people. It's pretty pathetic that they have such a need to attempt to distinguish themselves when in professional markets they still have excellent tools for audio and video.

It's the implied arrogance of negating other acid-like programs already available for the OS. But there will always be defenders just as there will be Microsoft loyalists that swear that windows XP 2005! will be the greatest OS - ever!!

Do you think the people who want to hear your music care if it was made on a Mac or PC?

Theres nothing innovative about GB except for its price and the fact that it comes with every new Mac. Actually I dont even think thats innovative becuase a scaled down version of Acid has come with the SOny Vaio for a couple of years now.

I used Acid over 5 years ago, and Sonar has always had Acid loop support so I really dont see the big hooplah. Mostly the Apple marketing machine going to work as usual, and everyone is making a big deal about it as usual. Those guys are good.

Apple loves itself talking .. true, true.

(i was at the apple/emagic announcment at namm .. and everything is so "amazing" .. they use this word top-often)

On a on-topic note:

- the people using garageband love it .. and this is probably the most important thing for both apple and the customers of garageband.
- marketing is marketing is marketing

putte

rooser wrote:

Uh, there is AU support for instruments and FX... obviously you don't know much about the product, so maybe you should try it first and then comment...

Well, I stand corrected. But that doesn't excuse Apple's unrelenting arrogance, nor their lame decision to enter a market which, in my opinion, they should not even attempt to do. It just galls me when companies like Apple or Microsoft waste their resources developing second-rate entry-level apps when they should be concentrating on the more fundamental goal of improving their respective platforms. Leave the specialized app development to third-parties, and make it easier for them to write apps and drivers that are better, faster, and more stable. If anything, they should be partnering with companies to provide entry-level software.

Where is a product like GarageBand going to be in 5 years? I predict Apple will probably discontinue it, or sell it off. At best, it's an entry point into digital audio for novice users. I suppose in the end this is a good thing because someone will buy GarageBand, then become curious about computer music, and download a demo for another host, and upgrade their audio card, and buy more plugins from third-party mfgs, and so on. So what the hell am I so mad about, the industry is growing!

willum wrote:

It just galls me when companies like Apple or Microsoft waste their resources developing second-rate entry-level apps when they should be concentrating on the more fundamental goal of improving their respective platforms

Well, even serious musicians use garageband. (have a look at osxaudio.com)
It´s a nice addition. (some people use it on their laptops when they´re on their way from a to b)

Quote:

At best, it's an entry point into digital audio for novice users.

And that´s exactly a part of the story apple is after.
That´s why they sell iLife .. letting people do music, do little films, manage their photographings, etc.

And yes .. most people using these apps simply love them.
Not a bad thing ..

putte

I don't understand why this stuff gets people so upset. This is exactly in keeping with the entire rest of Apple's little freebies or cheapies that enable their customers to be creative and make stuff. It may not be cutting edge, but who cares? It's not pretending to be, and you don't always need cutting edge and super-pro to do stuff that's at least fun (and so worth doing) if not excellent. Wasn't Beck's "Loser" recorded on a crappy 4-track?

Are you sure you're not actually upset about something else and just projecting it onto Apple?

As far as marketing is concerned, listen to a car ad sometime and ask yourself if the latest sedans really do have "bold new styling!" They must! Lying in ads is against the law!

pougher, that´s good news!

You think that's good news? Check out this all-true non-hype from the Nissan website!

Recognize that other drivers will silently wish for red lights or traffic jams. If for nothing more than a mere glimpse at your Altima. A sedan with styling that cuts through the clutter of sedan boredom. Drive proud. Stand tall. And put that enviable smile on your face every time you get behind the wheel.



putte, that's good news!

pough, that´s THE good news!

these are not "second" rate products ... people want to use apps, not devote themselves to the nightmare of a learning curve. Its great. Cubase could learn how to present an application to the eyes here. Thats what is so instantly appealing about Ableton Live.

I hate photoshop too, and use something else, even though it is the "pro" choice, because simple I just want to do it, not get bogged down in "pro" techy land.

Tachikoma.

it looks max, not photo.

pough wrote:

Are you sure you're not actually upset about something else and just projecting it onto Apple?

No, the whole "let's build cheap entry level apps instead of making our platform better" issue really does bother me. And perhaps I do harbor some subliminal antipathy toward Apple. Rest assured, ladies and gentlemen, I am certainly ill.

But I agree with you, there is the reality of marketing and business, and then there is my own (warped, twisted, bent, crippled [insert adjective here]) reality. You're absolutely right, Apple is doing what's best for Apple, and they will likely continue to do so. Marketing is silly, and we should laugh at it.

There is one thing, however, that nobody can resist. It's like a drug, and once it's in your bloodstream it takes you over and you are but an automaton under its complete control. Try and fight it as you may, but you will lose every time. What is this thing, you ask? It's new car smell. It's even more powerful than new computer smell, or even the smell of a brand new Access Virus when you take it out of the box. Perhaps even more potent than Abraham Lincoln's morning breath.

Well, the original post seems more of an apple flame than anything (yawn), but a few facts while we're on the topic of GB.

* As noted, it loads all Audio units and AU instruments.

* Remember that Apple own Logic. GB contains several new features and plugs that Logic users are very, very happy are going to be incorporated into the next Logic - Space Designer, the amp simulations etc, look 'em up if you're interested.

* The fact that everyone who buys a Mac from now on gets this app means that there'll be a larger body of people making music. So idiots will make bad music. so what? This expansion is GREAT news for third party developers.

* It looks like Acid because it's built by the people who made Acid.

* Those "pre-manufactured loops" are not quite what they seem, or are a lot more than they actually seem. The "apple loops" technology IS actually a huge INNOVATION.

Copying an OSX audio post below from Bitshift , Mr Phatmatik, about the full capabilities of Apple Loops. :

********************************************************************** ***

" I've been poking around those innocuous-looking .aif files in the GarageBand loops folder, and I've realized something... these are FAR more than simple ACID-type files or REX2 (or pHATfiles) which simply store transient, tempo and key information.

It appears the Apple Loop file format can store the following

1. A rendered version of the loop (what's in the standard aiff file, and and the reason you can load it into any application that supports aif)

2. Transient, key, and tempo information. (like ACID, Rex2 and pHATfiles)

3. The midi information used to create the loop.

4. The EXS patch used to create the loop (including samples, it appears, but I'm not sure) (!)

5. A 'channel preset' with effects settings for processing the loop.

What's the practical application of this?

1. In GarageBand, if you drag one of these loops to an audio track, you get an audio-style waveform reminiscent of Logic's arrange with the added benefit of ACID-style time-stretching and pitch-scaling.

1. If you drag one of these loops to a MIDI track, you get the MIDI data used to create the loop (note that that midi track could be triggering a completely different instrument, allowing you to mix and match performance data with different sounds freely.) You could also quantize, change individual notes, etc.

2. If you drag one of these loops to an empty area in the arrange (i.e. where there is no track already) it will create a new track with the channel settings, sampler patch (aka 'software instrument' in GB) and midi data TO EXACTLY REPRODUCE THE LOOP. But with more flexibility than loop based soundware has EVER provided.

This is important: instead of 'slicing' up a rendered audio loop, these apple loops can be thought of as 'open source' loops -- you literally have the program material (sampler patch, performance data, and effect settings) the sound designer had when he created them! Also, because these are midi-based, they need not be drums, be ANY type of program material. (For example, the loop I used to try all this out was a pop ballad piano loop complete with chords and piano).

Forget ACID-style time stretching, this is the ultimate in flexibility for all types of loops. Imagine getting a drum loop and deciding it's too compressed. Simply turn it off. Or change the hat sound (or entire kits). Add to this the meta-tagging features of Apple Loops (the search engine is great, as anyone who has used Soundtrack can attest to).

While this puts an (unfruitful) end to a year plus of research and development for me (the death of MetaGroove™, I'm afraid), it's EXTRAORDINARILY exciting for me as a musician to see a platform vendor do something so right and so smart. While many of us scratched our head at the apparent anti-climax of Logic Pro 6, Apple slid a revolutionary new technology into their introductory audio application right under our very noses.

Mark my words. Apple Loops are big news.

Hats off to my colleagues at Apple. Brilliant.

Art "

(If you want to follow this thread, go to http://www.osxaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6298 )

********************************************************
SOooooo .....

While to all intensive purposes, it seems that GB is down the foodchain when it comes to extensive audio and MIDI editing, plug parameter automation etc - it's quite an amazing program to be included as part of the basic computer system.

Rather than slag Apple off, why not concentrate on getting Microsoft to build a basic 64 track sequencer into the next version of Windows?

Pantsdown666 wrote:

Rather than slag Apple off, why concentrate on getting Microsoft to build a basic 64 track sequencer into the next version of Windows?

Maybe because if they did, everyone from Pinnacle to Apple would be suing them for being anti-competitive. When Apple, Linux distros, and even BeOS (past tense) throw in freeware apps as part of the OS, it is called value added innovation. When MS do this, it is called 'dumping' and gets lawyers upset.

I don't much like MS, but I don't like double standards either.

Wow. I had no idea. Now here are some folks who know what they're talking about. Honestly, I didn't know about any of this. As a Windows user, I'm actually jealous now! Dammit! That's why I love KVR-VST so much, people would rather gently correct one another rather than simply saying "shut up you ignorant dumb-arse". So I thank you all for treating me so kindly, rage-o-holic that I am.

As a side note, I actually finished more songs when all I had was a (not so cheap at the time) 4-track.

So hey Microsoft, you hear that? You boys in Redmond better get on the ball and start creating some digital audio innovation! Apple's kickin your ass!! Hear that? I wonder if Steve Ballmer will see this.

Looks like SJ is pulling a me-too, vanity-ware stunt. Watch how a third rate, 4 year old bit of music software technology is turned into magic beans and sold to those in the market for magic beans.

So if someone is good at selling "magic beans" and there are enough fools around to buy them because they desparately want someone to sell them magic beans, well thats just life as we know it.

I have bought my share of magic bean (apple) computers through the years, and decided long ago I can make better decisions about putting together a fast and reliable computer less the costly magic bean logo.

Its a cult, a religion, and a con all rolled into one.
It still exists for the same reason Kellogs Frosted Flakes exists, its a brand that requires billions annually in advertising to survive. While 90% of shoppers buy generic house brand frosted flakes, there will always be a few insecure types who have to get "the brand". Stop the advertising and its history. As Apples long downhill market share slide continues unabated expect the hyperbole to increase as this is the only magic Steve knows, and so it will just be doubled up. Next thing you know Apple will have invented fresh air and include an air freshner in every case. Also expect to see less and less spent on R and D and more and more on Advertising the magic bean logo.

So if anyone comes out with any music software, I think that is great, the more the merryer, but
I dont like seeing any company attempt a monopoly and would prefer it if computer companies would concentrate on the hardware and OS and leave applications to the rest of the free market.

Quote:

So if anyone comes out with any music software, I think that is great, the more the merryer, but I dont like seeing any company attempt a monopoly and would prefer it if computer companies would concentrate on the hardware and OS and leave applications to the rest of the free market.

Hear, hear!

Whoa. A double-post split by a double post!

Now that's what I call innovation!

Apple This, Apple That . .

Bah!


-Juanito

Quote:

So hey Microsoft, you hear that? You boys in Redmond better get on the ball and start creating some digital audio innovation! Apple's kickin your ass!! Hear that? I wonder if Steve Ballmer will see this.

No, but one of his employees will...

Actually it does audio,virtual instruments and loops,but it's just not called Cakewalk Homestudio anymore .Anyway,marketing aside, it looks like a handy and needed app for that platform.If I had a Mac I'd probably get it so I could give my brain a rest from Logic,and probably get more done realistically.

Two things

(1) It's only $49 and comes with iPhoto, iTunes (alright that's free anyway), iDVD and iMovie. i hate you lucky Apple-using b@$7@r|>$.

(2) A couple of posts in this thread have given me inspiration for my new app. It'll be called Foscam4 and will provide 4 tracks of audio recording with each track having a fader, bass, treble and pan controls. You have to record each track individually and all-in-one-go (the audio will not be represented in the GUI at all). If you want more than 4 tracks you'll have to mix two together onto a spare track and that will mean sitting through the whole song with play and record both pressed at the same time.
I bet a hatful of bucks that some great music will come out of it.