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KVR Forum [Instruments] » Archive » Instruments » March 2001 Index | KVRFA1
AuthorTopic: Unfinished products
Lotuz
Posted: 19th March 2001 05:42
It's great to see that Steinberg are going to release their new VSTi's soon, but I feel that they should think about updating their early VSTi's like the LM-4 and VB-1 too.

We all know about the limitations of the LM-4 and the latest update was just a minor one. You don't really make me glad with the ability to use 32 bit drum samples instead of 24 or 16 bit. For HipHop 12 bit sounds fatter anyway.


The VB-1 is a great VSTi in concept, but it lacks that full sound we all need and it produces a annoying click as attack. So I'd really appreciate it if they would turn it into a professional sounding VSTi (VB-2).
manytone
Posted: 19th March 2001 13:35
Hello Lotuz
There was a report in the Canadian Cubase Magazine that said that VB-1 was not actually tuned to 440 pitch. It was slightly out. Anyone know if this has been corrected? If anyone wants the exact info, I'll dig through my mags and find it.
Anyway a VB-2 would be nice as a lot of the Free VSTI out there are now better than VB-1.
Still though, it's a nice vsti to play with.
Cheers
Paul Brown
Manytone Music
Ben [KVR]
Posted: 19th March 2001 19:40
I'm not a fan of VB-1, but I'm gonna come out of the closet and say I like the Universal Sound Module!

There, I've said it


When I first got VST 5 I played with it and dismissed it almost immediately but recently I've needed a GM soundset and couldn't get a Soundfont that sounded right, and guess what came to my rescue, good old USM


It would be nice if Steinberg would release expansion banks for it.

Anyway Lotuz, you own virtually every VSTi in existence and you're bitching about VB-1, you must be bored
Lotuz
Posted: 19th March 2001 20:12
quote
Quote:
Anyway Lotuz, you own virtually every VSTi in existence and you're bitching about VB-1, you must be bored.


I have way too much VSTi's. And Reason! And a Pulsar II!! So much possibilities, it's driving me nuts. So to finally get some work done I need simple choices to make. And when I want to use real sounding bass guitars the VB-1 comes to mind first. But it's not good enough as it is right now. So I'd definitely like Steinberg to update/upgrade the VB-1.

I was enthousiastic about the USM at first, but I don't use it anymore. The concept of making a General MIDI VSTi is perfect, but most the sounds of the USM aren't good enough for me anymore.

In the beginning all VSTi's were exciting, because it was something new. Now it's time to move the quality up to a higher level. And not only with new products. Overhaul the old VSTi's and they're back in business...
Ben [KVR]
Posted: 19th March 2001 20:29
quote:
Originally posted by Lotuz:
In the beginning all VSTi's were exciting, because it was something new. Now it's time to move the quality up to a higher level. And not only with new products. Overhaul the old VSTi's and they're back in business...



I bet you can't wait to get your hands on Waldorf's Attack and NI's FM7


These look like quality instruments!
Lotuz
Posted: 20th March 2001 03:33
The Waldorf Attack does look tempting indeed. The FM7 I'm going to let me pass by. I've really got too much soft synths to handle. Somehow synths seem to be the easiest software instruments to make. Why else would there be so many?


[ 20 March 2001: Message edited by: Lotuz ]
Lotuz
Posted: 20th March 2001 10:36
No, I don't have the FM Heaven. The Pulsar II has an FM synth (FM One), but I haven't really checked that one out yet. I just want a much better VB-1, that's all.

I like things to be simple. For example: If I want to use an organ sound, of course I could use one of the synths' organ presets. But I will always use the B4. In the near future (end of April hopefully) if I want to use an electric piano sound, then I will use the EVP73. If I want typical synth sounds, then I will use a synth (now I use the Pro-52 most of the time, but when the Pulsar XTC is released probably some of the Pulsar synths). And if I want to use a bass guitar sound, then I want to use a VSTi like the VB-1 specialized in bass guitar sounds.
kevvvvv
Posted: 20th March 2001 14:50
Ben mentioned USM a few threads back ... brave man.

Steinberg should offer a PRO set of sounds for USM, up to the standard of the excellent Utopia Live GM soundfont (got that one too, Lotuz?


USM is only satisfactory in some areas, and very poor in others.

Lotuz is right in expecting pro quality instruments. The standard has moved on.

Personally I'm waiting for a pro synth that starts with imported wav and sf2 samples, instead of saw waves etc, like in Orion, only better.

Anyone who has used Orion knows that there is great potential in the sample-synth player idea, but unfortunately, not in Orion.
Uncle E
Posted: 20th March 2001 21:19
Does that mean you've got the FM Heaven, as well? Either that or the DX-G patch for SynC oughtta be able to do a much better job for basses than the VB-1, that is if they sound faithful to the original, could you comment?

NI got it right by having the FM7 read dx-100 patches, even my fs1r can't do that!
DavidGig
Posted: 21st March 2001 13:18
On the subject of the VB-1: You know it can be made to sound quite good. I agree with Lotuz that the attack transients are much too strong. (They're actually modelled quite nicely, with lots of delicate information that sounds, to me, quite good. But just not like an electric bass.) I spent the longest time twiddling with the parameters to try to find the combo that tames them, but it turns out that what it needs is EQing. Try a massive (24dB) cut at 6000 Hz, with a Q just narrow enough so that the bass isn't weakened. If you're using Cubase, try a Q setting of 5 or 6. Now I'm quite happy with the instrument. (And thanks to sirius and Baesil for the banks they posted.)

Paul at Manytone, I would appreciate any details you can recall on the tuning issue. I have had some doubts, but I thought it was just a matter of enharmonic overtones--or something
.

David Gigante
Lawrence, Kansas
manytone
Posted: 21st March 2001 15:04
Hi David
Well I dug out the info. It is in the Club Cubase mag issue 9 3 2000. Page 6 - News and Tech.
It says:
"The VB1 sounds slightly Detuned. "A" is not 440hz but actually 438hz. Watch for updates to cure this soon."


And that's all it says. I have not checked this out yet but when I get a minute, I will go and take, and tune some samples and see whats up.
Cheers
Paul Brown
Manytone Music

[ 21 March 2001: Message edited by: manytone ]
David Abraham
Posted: 21st March 2001 17:00
quote:
Originally posted by Lotuz:
Why else would there be so many?


]


yikes please don't say that, there are only 2 shipping softsynths that I can use. Pro52 and B4, everything else is either: not shipping, buggy, proprietary, un-interesting or too cpu intensive for my needs.

I'm hoping at some point for the real "Native Power Pack" <g> to come from Native Instruments. Until they have a Rhodes, Acoustic Piano and multitimbral sampler on their roadmap I won't be satisfied.

I'm also very curious to see what STL (VAZ) will come up with.

-david abraham

[ 21 March 2001: Message edited by: David Abraham Fenton ]
manytone
Posted: 21st March 2001 17:30
Back to the tuning thing.
I just checked out my VB1. I took some samples at "C" and Analog X Autotune reports them as Being IN TUNE.
But, The VB1 i got was downloaded after this announcement in the Cubase Mag, so it could have been fixed.
Anybody got an old copy to check or other findings to report. I find it Strange that the official Magazine would report it, but nothing else has been said.
Paul Brown
Jambo
Posted: 22nd March 2001 10:56
quote:
Originally posted by David Abraham Fenton:
yikes please don't say that, there are only 2 shipping softsynths that I can use. Pro52 and B4, everything else is either: not shipping, buggy, proprietary, un-interesting or too cpu intensive for my needs.


Wow, only 2 out of all the available ones
you must be bloody hard to please
, what about the PPG or Electron, or The Bassline, or, JXsynth, or, well loads of others?? I agree though, more are always welcome, Attack looks and sounds very interesting, VAZ is going to be DXi only isn't it, I wonder if Steinberg are going to add DXi support to Cubase ??

BTW Surely B4 isn't actually a softsynth its a physically modelled organ
David Abraham
Posted: 22nd March 2001 16:55
nope, the others aren't doing it for me

quote:
Originally posted by Jambo:
I agree though, more are always welcome, Attack looks and sounds very interesting, VAZ is going to be DXi only isn't it, I wonder if Steinberg are going to add DXi support to Cubase ??



Well I do plan to make extensive use of Cakewalk SONAR XL, and have been recently told that VAZ is incredible, so I'll certainly check out the DXi version. But as a musician I don't like my synths being locked into one platform.


quote:


BTW Surely B4 isn't actually a its a physically modelled organ


Yeah the terminology is getting rough. How about "plug-in instrument"?

Actually to me the B4 is so good that it deserves to be called an organ, period.

-david abraham
Uncle E
Posted: 22nd March 2001 17:01
quote
Quote:
everything else is either: not shipping, buggy, proprietary, un-interesting or too cpu intensive for my needs.


SynC Modular is a gorgeous instrument that meets all your requirements, sure development on it has nearly stopped (only bug-fixes now) but there's also nothing left that needs to be done to it! It's incredible for physical modelling, better than Reaktor or anything else (even most h/w synths).
Uncle E
Posted: 22nd March 2001 17:03
quote
Quote:
...up to the standard of the excellent Utopia Live GM soundfont


How is that in other sound font players, like virtual sampler, bs-1, or the STS-4000?
David Abraham
Posted: 22nd March 2001 17:33
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle E:
[B]SynC Modular is a gorgeous instrument that meets all your requirements, B]


when you compare it to Reaktor I immediately think high cpu, low polyphony in the context of a sequencer.

Also I'm not really into sound design. (yet)

Is this the same product that recently merged with Native Instruments? "Dr Sync" or something like that?

-david abraham
Uncle E
Posted: 22nd March 2001 19:50
quote
Quote:
when you compare it to Reaktor I immediately think high cpu, low polyphony in the context of a sequencer


Eh, is that the common misconception about SynC? It's 100% the opposite, users on p233's have reported multiple voices & I've never seen the end of the voice count on my celeron (comparatively, a friend at Steinberg can only get a couple of voices of Reaktor on his Athlon system). You don't necessarily have to be into sound design, either, as there are 30 or so patches available, each w/ their own set of presets. A SynC user even made an FM synth which can load all DX-7 presets, just like the FM7 & FM Heaven.

Let me punctuate the usefulness of SynC by telling you one thing: when NI hired Dr. Sync, they offered all us users a free upgrade to Reaktor; I still haven't taken it cuz I simply don't need it.

[ 23 March 2001: Message edited by: Uncle E ]
David Abraham
Posted: 22nd March 2001 20:19
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle E:

Let me punctuate the usefulness of SynC by telling you one thing: when NI hired Dr. Sync, they offered all us users a free upgrade to Reaktor; I still haven't taken it cuz I simply don't need it.


thanks Uncle E! I'll look into it right away.

-david abraham
realmarco
Posted: 2nd February 2002 12:52
the B4 isn't physical modelling its sample playback...

plus the b4 are samples played back thru some ingenious b3 FXs

[ 02 February 2002, 15:53: Message edited by: realmarco ]
Horse
Posted: 2nd February 2002 12:57
quote:
the B4 isn't physical modelling its sample playback...
I thought it was physical modelling...?

H [Smile]
realmarco
Posted: 2nd February 2002 13:41
its not
bajongo
Posted: 2nd February 2002 14:13
But it sounds good...
MadGav
Posted: 2nd February 2002 20:19
quote:
Originally posted by Jambo:
VAZ is going to be DXi only isn't it
No, it comes as standalone, VSTi and DXi.

Martin (VAZ Designs)
realmarco
Posted: 3rd February 2002 01:32
nice signature bajongo hehe [Razz]

yeah B4 does sound good... [Smile]

[ 03 February 2002, 04:33: Message edited by: realmarco ]
Funkybot
Posted: 3rd February 2002 04:05
How is the the B4 sample playback? If it was sample playback how can the drawbars have such a drastic effect on the sound. How could it possibly sound so good. From what I understand the B4 is actually additive synthesis. Do you know something we don't? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just curious.
stratman
Posted: 3rd February 2002 06:46
The B4 tonewheels are sample based. The rest of the instrument is physical modelling. Or so I heard.
Bram
Posted: 3rd February 2002 08:15
Hi.

B4 works by playing back sampled tonewheel waveforms. When u slide a drawbar it mixes in more 'samples' at higher pitches.

So, it's a bit like additive synthesis, but you don't use sine-waves as waveforms, but you use sampled tonewheel samples.
Allso, the different tonewheels have constant amplitude so, the partials don't have separate envelopes.

NI most likely did some optimalisation tricks to keep the CPU-usage down... One of the tricks they most likely used is this:

If you have a note at C4 and open an octave drawbar (which sounds at C5) it mixes in a C5 tone. But, maybe you're allready pressing C5 too! Then it only needs to ampify the note @ C5.

So what this boils down to is that you never
-ever- have more than 127 oscs's going (and most of the time a LOT less).

This makes the B4 a very CPU-friendly instrument...

It's not a physical modeling instrument though. Physical modeling uses methods based on physics to generate tones. Most of the time you'd have things like strings, rods, plates and other vibrating stuff modeled inside the instrument which are "excited" by other stuff (modeled breath, modeled bowing, etc etc).

cheers,

Bram.
Jambo
Posted: 3rd February 2002 08:45
quote:
Originally posted by MadGav:
quote:
Originally posted by Jambo:
VAZ is going to be DXi only isn't it
No, it comes as standalone, VSTi and DXi.

Martin (VAZ Designs)
Hehe, well that post is nearly a year old now, I'm older and wiser in the ways of the world [Roll Eyes]
MadGav
Posted: 3rd February 2002 10:04
quote:
Originally posted by Jambo:
Hehe, well that post is nearly a year old now, I'm older and wiser in the ways of the world [Roll Eyes]
lol, thought it was a new topic!

Martin
Peter from LinPlug
Posted: 3rd February 2002 21:14
quote:
Originally posted by Bram:
If you have a note at C4 and open an octave drawbar (which sounds at C5) it mixes in a C5 tone. But, maybe you're allready pressing C5 too! Then it only needs to ampify the note @ C5.
Well, if NI did it this way, they did it exactly like we did in daOrgan. Maybe perhaps because it's the way the B3 works [Big Grin]
G.
Posted: 4th February 2002 06:43
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle E:
A SynC user even made an FM synth which can load all DX-7 presets, just like the FM7 & FM Heaven.
[/QB]
Erm... that's me [Smile]
Watch out for a new version of DX-G (1.9) in the next few days.

On this same issue, no DX-7 clone emulates it prefectly. I tried them all and there is always a preset of the original Yamaha ROM set that sounds slightly weird.

Cheers,

G.
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