| Author | Topic: future is not bright if thieves make it | |
| jjaway | Posted: 15th August 2001 05:49 | |
| Lotuz | Posted: 15th August 2001 06:16 | |
Did they steal the B4 graphics?!?  | ||
| brittnell | Posted: 15th August 2001 06:39 | |
Careful where you point those fingers... I hope this doesn't fall into "electronic transfer of copywritten material": http://users.pandora.be/jjaway/fsm/filters01/AnalogFilters1.jpg
Did you try calling them on it, or were you just stoked to have some mud to sling? I can see were it might just be a case of a lazy artist and unsuspecting superiors... You'd be amazed how often this type of "appropriation" occurs. I bet if you made them aware of it, they'd change it right away (they've already released service pack 1, and the software just started shipping on Monday). B | ||
| brittnell | Posted: 15th August 2001 06:43 | |
Boy, that sure came down quick...
See what effect a simple "heads up" can make?  | ||
| jjaway | Posted: 15th August 2001 06:43 | |
Sound Quest said: 'Yes, the organ bitmaps have turned out to be similar to Reaktors but they were all built here using photoshop.' | ||
| Lotuz | Posted: 15th August 2001 06:49 | |
That's no excuse. It doesn't matter what tools you use to make something. You can't just copy something and claim it's your own. The similarities are just too obvious... | ||
| brittnell | Posted: 15th August 2001 06:51 | |
Hmmm...
I wonder if they know that their artist used Photoshop in conjunction with a screen-grab of the B4. Doesn't look good... which is surprising because they've been SUPER responsive to input thus far. Either way, I bet they'll change it ASAP. B Ps. I've already purchased Infinity, and will make a new skin for that module a top priority (because otherwise, it looks like a great app.) | ||
| brittnell | Posted: 15th August 2001 06:57 | |
Ps, I think you should ditch (or at least move) the "boycott" screen, as it makes it a bit hard to see the depth of the similarities. It took me about 4 loops to see that the wood grain and shadows match up EXACTLY.
good eye... B | ||
| Sound Quest | Posted: 15th August 2001 07:43 | |
Ok guys,
When you're aiming for a B3 look, how close is too close? Did we create the graphics a little too well? There is no Native Instruments graphic shot there. All of the keys are modelled, the shadows, everything. I'll admit that right now I don't know where the wood came from so I'll have to look into that part of it. My question to those who would like to claim that we stole this directly, how close is too close? If we substitute a different wood and modify the shadows are you happy or does Native now own the B3 graphic and we can only create an organ in brushed steel or something equally extreme? Seriously. Michael Lambie Sound Quest Inc. | ||
| jjaway | Posted: 15th August 2001 07:51 | |
it's not only the B4 organ, the Tassman knob too
and dont reply with it's just a knob. also you dont have to say your graphic artist didnt copy the interface because he did. you cant make the complete B4 interface in photoshop it's 3d modelled. just admit and publicly apologize | ||
| jjaway | Posted: 15th August 2001 10:35 | |
I started to feel bad because i told people to boycott a company just for stealing 2images and maybe the app was nice and sounded great, so i played a bit with the demo.
conclusion: i dont feel bad anymore, sound quest is clearly in the wrong business. they should be ashamed to ask money for this. If they have a conscience they would pay everybody back that already ordered infinity. i'm not joking, try it yourself | ||
| brittnell | Posted: 15th August 2001 10:50 | |
Jeeeez...
Give the Sound Quest guys the benefit of the doubt, and ditch the "BOYCOTT" page. If you really feel the need to leave the graphics up there for review, that's fine... let poeple make there own judgment at this point. But it's kind of lame to continue to incite rath and a boycott when they've already agreed that the offending artwork will be replaced. Also, if you are planning on continuing the call for boycott until you get a personal apology, I have to ask "why?"... Do you work for NI? Did you create the graphics for the B4? What's your stake in this beyond bringing it to light and getting it changed? If it makes you feel better, I'll offer up a "pat on the back" and "job well done"... Really, I mean it. I suspect that we'll hear more on the subject once Michael's had a chance to talk to the artist (remember, this post originally went up in the middle of the night when not much could be done except fan flames). Also, as Michiel mentioned, I think it's short-sighted to not explore this program based off of this one mistake (the one that's being remedied as you read this). If it sounds like the program fits your needs, give it a shot. Cheers, Brittnell "5:51am... Time for bed." Ps. jjaway, what programs would you compare it to, and what would you recommend in it's place? Exactly which parts are so weak? ...how about a real review? | ||
| jjaway | Posted: 15th August 2001 13:17 | |
i'm not going to get deeper into this discussion, basicly i have better things to do so this is most likely the last thing you hear from me.
also who i am and where i work is irrelevant. i wont stop saying to boycott companies like this, if kids want to make and release crap, i dont have a problem with that but claiming that it's great and asking $299 for it and above all stealing parts from other programs is a bit over the edge in my humble opinion. "publicly apologize" doesnt mean they have to apologize to me personal. i mean that they post on -their- website (and not in a hidden corner) that they -stole- interface parts from AAS and NI and give a link to these companies and apologize to them. but if you steal something you will always be a thief soundquest guys can start to pray that they dont get sued because i doubt they have the money to handle that situation i wont decide this so dont get angry on me. | ||
| WilliamK | Posted: 15th August 2001 13:17 | |
I don't get all you guys, how can you call a company thiefs? Any dumb guy could create those graphics, just the way ApliedAccoustics and NativeInstruments did. This is not stealing... if it is, A LOT of other companys will get in trouble!! There is no copyright for knobs yet!  Another thing, B4 from NI uses the look from the B3, so who is copying who? And Tasmman uses graphics from old synths?  That's market guys... | ||
| jjaway | Posted: 15th August 2001 13:23 | |
argg yeh i said it was my last but i wanted to say something publicly for a pretty long time and this looks like best time to do it.
Dash dude you're a dumb person, i'm waiting to see your vst plugins because it will be one big lol here. no i wont say why you're dumb | ||
| Lotuz | Posted: 15th August 2001 13:24 | |
That's being naive... | ||
| bioroid | Posted: 15th August 2001 13:37 | |
Wow, those graphics look stolen.
Dash - graphics can and are copyrighted. The concept of a knob can't be but the actual look of a specific knob can be. It def looks like whoever the artist was, took NI and AAS graphics and modified them. It may be ok but def too much of the original is in there to the point you can easily tell they were stolen. This program may have potential but I do not see any filter effects. bioroid | ||
| WilliamK | Posted: 15th August 2001 13:38 | |
quote: Well, you have the right to call me anything, but not Dumb. My site gives me enought money to pay bills and I allready got my URL placed at KeyboardMagazine and next month on FutureMagazine and a review on the KeyboardMagazine for November. So, am I dumb?  Again, don't call me dumb, I can do stupid things, but I'm only human... | ||
| assdroid | Posted: 15th August 2001 14:39 | |
OK, here’s a picture of a Hammond B3, made of wood with shadows an all Damn it, NI need lynching, how dare they steal the B3's design and then have the audacity to name it B4!!! Quick lets kill Sound Quest, they've committed the ultimate sin and also copied the B3's design!!! aaahghgh save us all!!!!!!!!!! BTW: jj, do you know someone named JP? He shared your outlook on life  | ||
| assdroid | Posted: 15th August 2001 14:46 | |
quote: There are numerous filters available, check the Objects - Audio - Filters section! | ||
| WilliamK | Posted: 15th August 2001 14:59 | |
quote: Now I'm happy!! Thanxs A.Droid, you got a good point now! Another thing, how about comparing pixel-by-pixel the knobs that users said SQ ripped from Tassmann...
Just a final comment, I'm a Reaktor user and designer, I love Native-Instruments synths. But I must say that SQ and Infinity 2.0 will bring things closer to what I desire on a Virtual-Synth-Workstation. Anyway, I will be a Reaktor and Infinity designer! Just because Roland got a competitor named Yamaha years ago (long long time ok?) Roland didn't go down! Again, Reaktor is not the only one on the market.  [ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Dash-Synthesis ] | ||
| Lotuz | Posted: 15th August 2001 15:00 | |
quote | ||
| Uncle E | Posted: 15th August 2001 15:09 | |
quote: Like trolling & making that web page? | ||
| WilliamK | Posted: 15th August 2001 15:37 | |
Just a note for who called me DUMB: Look what SoundOnSound wrote about me: http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/sep01/articles/pcnotes0901.asp
I don't want to brag myself, since I'm a very humble person, but I do serious work... | ||
| Illusionist | Posted: 15th August 2001 16:43 | |
Ok, another one If I make a painting of an organ, lets say a b3 When someone makes a copy of my painting, it's theft. When someone makes a painting of my painting, it's art... But seriously I always thought that compony's were paying some kind of licensemoney for specific sounds from compony's like Hammond or Rhodes (EVP73), just to may (?) make a emulation. Or can just anybody make an emulation of anything without getting some kind of copyright-control trouble? I know the hardeware Fender Rhodes had a patent on it's look and sound for a long time. Michiel | ||
| afx23 | Posted: 15th August 2001 16:59 | |
who cares? as long as it sounds good and it s cheap i dont care who they ripped off : i mean you re all (ok maybe not ALL..)using M$windoze that s a rip-off of everything apple ever did : where s the boycott page????
silly people stop talking and make choons Ps: micheal of quadrasid fame: i m still waiting for my ban  [edit by Ben@KvR] afx: You will be banned if you keep trying to start trouble - Play nicely and respect each other [/edit] [ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Ben@KvR ] | ||
| WilliamK | Posted: 15th August 2001 17:02 | |
quote | ||
| etherdesign | Posted: 15th August 2001 17:04 | |
You mean Windows is a rip off of what Apple ripped off from Xerox, more precisely. | ||
| etherdesign | Posted: 15th August 2001 17:05 | |
Damn hot topic, guess Dash beat me to it by seconds. Sheesh. | ||
| WilliamK | Posted: 15th August 2001 17:07 | |
quote | ||
| lemmyc | Posted: 15th August 2001 17:08 | |
quote: Whaaat? This kind of statement is beyond naive. NI and AA paid artists to model those interfaces in 3D and create a unique look for their products. These are artistically talented people using hard won skills to earn a living. If any "dumb guy" could do it, every VSTi would have a professional standard interface. If you think it's OK just to steal the work these designers created (which took many many hours to make), and charge 100s of pounds for the result, then you'd better stop complaining about having your work "warezed". I agree that Sound Quest should publicly apologise for this "error" and change the graphics immediately. If they are selling their product they can afford to pay their own artist. I find their arrogance about this issue totally unacceptable. I can't believe that people here think it's no problem. For me that IS utterly dumb. And that's putting it politely. Lemmy | ||
| Illusionist | Posted: 15th August 2001 21:29 | |
quote: I think too close is that, like earlier mentioned, even the shadows are exactly the same. Ofcourse b3 emulations look all like a b3, but are they also in the same room at the same place at the same time (e.g. the same shadows)? Also there's something with the keyboard. Besides the fact that they are identical, the keys look like pianokeys too me on B4 and on Organ6. I mean, if you guys at Infinity really tried to recreate an b3, why did you made the same mistake as NI? You should have made the keys 'plastic' and flat looking and not compact like pianokeys like they are now. Not to mention the tassmann-button. But I think it's nonsense to raise a 'boycot' for this kinda thing. I mean, this is so obvious that this must be a mistake and not really intended. If you like the program, buy it. You won't be arrested for possesion of graphics I am curious about all the next 'stolen graphics' we are going to see with ensembles made by users of Infinity. I guess a lot! Btw: I do love the looks of that old school guitar effects | ||
| eti | Posted: 16th August 2001 00:55 | |
Just watch the movie, eh wot? Cor blimey!
Let's have a lesson in real history... Apple liscensed technolgy from Xerox, MS stole technology from Apple. | ||
| Funkybot | Posted: 16th August 2001 01:07 | |
I think I posted about these same similarities in previous thread about infinity. SoundQuest here's some free advise which may prevent future bashing, change the angle at which your B4 (oops I mean B3) is rendered at. Instead of being directly above it, how about angling it down to a 45 degree angle over the instrument, that little difference would've been enough to have prevented this thread from ever happening. Besides we already have a great sounding organ, why not do something new. Or at least rip off (maybe too a harsh word) e-magic's EVP88, that should teach them a lesson about releasing stripped down versions for other platforms. | ||
| Nifflas | Posted: 16th August 2001 05:11 | |
When I saw the first post I thought that I wouldn't believe this !"#% unless I technically could proove it's the same picture... and well, here's the results.
Resolution: Identical. The width of the keyboard on both pictures is the same amount of pixels. First I tried it with all the keys, the result was 514 pixels for both pictures (the black area before the first key included). I did it again only with the white keys. Width: 428 pixels. for both of them. If you still believe the graphics doesn't have the same source then you probably know nothing about graphics. Texture: Not identical. The main problem is that this is a GIF file (the link at the 1:st post) and such files only has 256 colours. I hope that can proove they're also the same if I can have a PERFECT screen-shot of them both. It must be in 32-bit full resolution format. I can't really see why I would have to proove that they're technically the same, but at least I think I'm capable of doing it. //Nifflas | ||
| Nifflas | Posted: 16th August 2001 05:20 | |
Oh, and as people have already said, the shadows is exactly the same and such stuff.
In other words, both pictures is modelled from the same organ at the same place with the same windows, and the width of the keyboard on both pictures happends to have the same amount of pixels. No, seriously. I don't think so. They're the same picture. | ||
| Nifflas | Posted: 16th August 2001 05:24 | |
ARGH! Crap!
The images I checked out is probably downsampled. I can't proove anything unless I have full version of them both. Please, anyone? | ||
| Nifflas | Posted: 16th August 2001 05:56 | |
Excuse me for posting so extremley much but...
I've nocied a couple of interesting things. 1: On the Soundquest homepage I couldn't find the screenshot of the organ you see at the boycot picture. 2: The text that describes what the faders do (16" 8" 5 1/3") etc. is not resampled. If they were, they should be anti-aliased if they were resampled. This means that orginal resolution of the Sound Quest organ is in fact the one at the screen-shot. BUT if you read at bottom of the screen shot of the NI instrument, you see the text "Interface scaled down to 601x377 orginal interface 786x4?2 (Can't see what number the ? is, but I think it's a 9) And this makes me laugh! Because there's only two options left now. 1: The boycot picture is a fake and Sound Quest never used that interface. (I don't believe this one is true) 2: Sound Quest used the scaled down screen-shot of the NI organ, yes the old screen shot they found at NI's homepage - to make their interface. It looks like NI have updated their screen-shot to a full resolution one now, but I resampled it myself back to 601x377 and the result was exactly the same as the "boycot" picture. This also prooves that the NI one must be the orginal one. | ||
| impulse one | Posted: 16th August 2001 06:00 | |
Deploy the hellfire and brimstone! | ||
| jjaway | Posted: 16th August 2001 06:10 | |
errrrr Nifflas,
the soundquest images come from the infinity demo and are original size, the B4 and tassman knobs are down sampled. but you're acting stupid, you only need 2eyes to see that they ripped the interfaces, they wouldnt be able to create the B4 interface nor the tassman knob they simply dont have the skill (look at the other graphics in the app) | ||
| Nifflas | Posted: 16th August 2001 06:50 | |
Yeah, I guess you're right. Yet I don't think they would ever admit they stole the graphics unless we really can proove it. Just have a look at what they said ealier... I mean, everyone can see with their eyes that the pictures have the same source, but they don't admit it anyway.
What do they say? "My question to those who would like to claim that we stole this directly, how close is too close?" | ||
| Lotuz | Posted: 16th August 2001 07:11 | |
| Nifflas | Posted: 16th August 2001 07:16 | |
Lotuz: No, not the one in the demo. It's the same as NI's.
jjaway: I have to admit I was acting stupid. I've downloaded the demo and checked it out... and I have to laugh when I see this... Soundquest makes !"#% ugly graphics. | ||
| Lotuz | Posted: 16th August 2001 07:37 | |
quote | ||
| TxinmySoul | Posted: 16th August 2001 11:31 | |
Is the image a ripoff of the B4? I guess what you are really saying is that it depends on what the definition of "Is" is. | ||
| alterex | Posted: 16th August 2001 15:04 | |
People,
This is an interesting discussion here, apart from the name calling of course. Are graphics copyrighted? I guess they are. Since the software is copyrighted I can conclude (correct me if I am wrong) that copying everything or parts of the particular software is illegal. Doesn't the software license state anything about this? Then again... if they grabbed a picture from NI's website - are those pictures copyrighted? I just visited NI's site but haven't seen a disclaimer or copyright notice what so ever. So is that illegal too? I guess we should let international law do it's work here. I won't be surprised if this could turn into a lawsuit. Regards, Matt | ||
| Illusionist | Posted: 16th August 2001 15:33 | |
What I find interesting is that NI today again are bragging and boasting with emulations of hardware instruments that other people created. And again with a price that's very interesting...for NI
Michiel | ||
| Nifflas | Posted: 16th August 2001 16:31 | |
I think we shouldn't be yelling at Sound Quest anymore. I mailed them and and asked them about this. This is a quite from the reply I got.
"Upon review, it became obvious that although the graphic was fully modelled (I have seen the source file although I am not a graphics person myself) some of the graphic elements used to build the output were taken directly from the NI graphic. This was inappropriate, it shouldn't have been done, and I do apologize for that - it was certainly not our intention." After all they did atmit some (I guess *very* much) graphics were ripped from NI. | ||
| Lotuz | Posted: 16th August 2001 17:26 | |
CASE CLOSED | ||
| jjaway | Posted: 16th August 2001 17:34 | |
sorry people,
AAS TASSMAN knob ? | ||
| WilliamK | Posted: 16th August 2001 17:35 | |
CASE CLOSED | ||
| exponent | Posted: 16th August 2001 18:28 | |
hmm. First i will say i dont really have an opinion or side regarding this particular incidence.
Regarding copyright law. I'm not sure if this is internationally applicable, but i guess it would have to be to be effective. From my limited knowledge of usa laws: Copyright exists automatically regarding ANY origonal creation that is captured in a tangible fixed medium. In other words, as soon as you create somthing in a fixed medium, such as a graphics format file, a user interface design, song lyrics (as long as you write them down) source code, etc. This may seem extraneous info after such a long ugly thread, but a lot of pepople posting were giving contradictory information. Again i dont know how this exists in international law, i assume it would be the same principle. In the usa those formal "copyrights" that one signs paperwork about are just an ADDED measure of protection against intellectual property theft. (if anyone has more accurate or detailed info regarding this post cause some might be interested to know, seeing how we're all musicians or content/software developers huh?) haha Aside from all of this, whatever happened to ethics? Or simply being more satisfied with something because YOU personally designed it from scratch?  [ 16 August 2001: Message edited by: exponent ] | ||
| Nifflas | Posted: 16th August 2001 18:54 | |
Personally I don't care much about the copyright stuff in this sort of questions... ...but.
I'm making graphics myself, and sometimes I spend a whole lot of hours to make something. I wouldn't like anyone to just use that graphics without even asking me or giving me credits for my work. So it's the same thing with this. I think Sound Quest will never do this mistake again... but I'm suprised people are still stealing other people's work. I've even heard of guys stealing music and selling it. In commercial purpose, no one ever gets away with something like that. //Nifflas | ||
| TxinmySoul | Posted: 16th August 2001 20:38 | |
That's about as naive a response as I have read on here. Copyright infringement in commercial applications occurs all the time. Unfortunately, to get a formal copyright in the first place in the US, you have to go through publication of the item you are copyrighting, which normally exposes it to the world. Patenting, on the other hand, can be done on ideas and inventions, which protects the patent owner a lot better. That's one of the major reasons large corporations have a bevy of lawyers on their staffs, to put the infringers under. What this outfit did is unethical and if NI wants to pursue it, probably something they will get sued over. Their management can also be sued directly if they are officers of the company. It is eye-opening how many people on here don't care about the ethics of stealing. It's the same old argument - it's only software. | ||
| Nifflas | Posted: 16th August 2001 21:05 | |
Let's hope so at least. | ||
| WilliamK | Posted: 16th August 2001 21:12 | |
Come'on guys, SoundQuest changed the pictures and asked sorry about this!
CASE CLOSED! | ||
| assdroid | Posted: 17th August 2001 12:39 | |
quote: Do that and I'll kill you heheh | ||
| assdroid | Posted: 17th August 2001 12:51 | |
quote: They actually make a cock up in this article and suggest you require Reaktor or Dynamo to use them, obviously Dynamo can't load them!! [ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Assassin Droid ] | ||
| Lotuz | Posted: 17th August 2001 13:03 | |
quote | ||
| WilliamK | Posted: 17th August 2001 13:06 | |
quote: Well, that's life! | ||
| assdroid | Posted: 17th August 2001 13:22 | |
quote: Good luck with Infinity mate, the demo looked daunting to me!! I'll wait and see what the Infinity player holds in store, I can't afford $499 for the full version anyway so I hope we still get to use user created instruments in the player. | ||
| Nifflas | Posted: 17th August 2001 13:51 | |
My philosophy is: If it looks good, it is good. Reaktor looks better than Infinity. Then it must be better ...please don't take my philosophy too seriously | ||
| Nifflas | Posted: 17th August 2001 13:55 | |
but seriously I would go for Reaktor instead of Infinity just because it looks better. And don't reply telling me that my ideas about how to judge a computer program is weird because I already know that. However, by some reason it seems like it works. Good looking programs are often better than ugly ones | ||
| WilliamK | Posted: 17th August 2001 13:56 | |
quote: Hehe, good point. But just to give my 2 cents. Infinity can look better for final-users than Reaktor. Since Developers can create whole synths with it's own interface you know? Make 3D buttons like Muon-Software makes and so on... Just wait to see when I get my hands on it! I still love Reaktor. IMHO Reaktor and Infinity will be two separeted programs for different publics. But... Infinity with the cheap Player for its synts, could move ahead over a VERY-LARGE audience. Like this: Reaktor has (just shouting numbers here) 4.000 users. Cubase VSTi has what? 10.000 at least? Sonar DXi how much more? And other musicians that would love to use the Infinity-Player and don't care about developing? So that's the ticket my friends. | ||
| Uncle E | Posted: 17th August 2001 15:55 | |
Cubase has over 1 million legal copies distributed. | ||
| cubic | Posted: 17th August 2001 17:10 | |
quote: 3D buttons like Muon-Software??? No, you don't mean to ripp them off, do you? | ||
| WilliamK | Posted: 17th August 2001 17:19 | |
quote | ||
| cubic | Posted: 17th August 2001 17:28 | |
quote: Where did you know??? Seriously man, don't you have any sense for humour? | ||
| WilliamK | Posted: 17th August 2001 17:34 | |
quote |
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