It's their choice, but Steinberg lead, Emagic follow. Steinberg innovate and gave us ASIO and VST and VSTI, and gave allowed
Emagic to use it to, when they could have easily have kept them in the cold. So how do the money grabbers at emagic repay the community, by issuing half assed compromises of their products in the hope that people will cross over to Logic. What a betrayal of steinbergs good will. I only hope they get burned financially and an asteroid falls on their HQ (which is bad for me since I am a Logic user). Seriously my cubase friend cant use the EVP main features and would like to. Is it any wonder that people resort to cracked warez when companys resort to such dastardly tactics. I won't be buying any of their products again,
except for the upgrades. Even now their VSTi implementation is half assed and unthought out.

Yes, I second that, and I am also a Logic-user.

They seem to follow a somehow aggressive marketing-strategy, and try to keep us Logic-users "exclusive".
I don´t like this kind of tactic - and the fact that Steinberg invented this wonderful VST-standard makes it even more strange...

And just to repeat:
VST isn´t still yet fully implemented in Logic!

We´ll see......
putte

Agreed!
Theres a new logic vsti out at the minute that looks very tasty but as Im a cubase user Ill never know!
As a marketing ploy I dont really think its very clever.

If you add up the amount of money Logic make off of people who buy their products simple because of the added few vst effects and vsti's compared to the amount of money they must be loosing because people who own orion and cubase cannot buy their products Im sure it would show that this policy is backfiring big time.

Well hopefully that the case any way!

Cheers.

Crumbs! Why are some people so hostile towards Emagic?

Steinberg definitely showed great innovation with ASIO and VST plug-in technologies, but it was hardly good will that allowed Emagic to adopt them! Emagic wanted to support them so their users could use the great products available, but Steinberg always wanted VST plug-ins to be an open standard since it doesn't exactly look bad for them to have created an 'industry standard'. (Remember though, ASIO and ReWire - through the Propellerheads - weren't made 'open' to other developers until much later in April 1999 -- the first versions of VST came out in 1996.)

When it comes to Emagic's innovation, for various reasons they showed an integrated software sampler a full year before Steinberg announced HALion. And also, when Steinberg licensed Emagic to incorporate VST plug-ins, Emagic licensed Steinberg to use their AMT technology for tight MIDI timing. It was only when AMT proved too incompatible with Cubase that this never saw the light of day.

Althought the recent VST plug-ins from Emagic have annoyed people, they're still great products, just not so great as those built into Logic! The Logic instruments give people a reason to choose Logic over Cubase, and Emagic unsurprisingly want people to buy Logic. Is that so bad in a competitive market place?

And even if people still think Emagic are dastardly, what about Steinberg implementing HALion's file searching routines on the VST host side and using Cubase's FXP/B format for storing presets? This makes it difficult not only for Logic users but the rest of people using VST plug-ins in non-Steinberg hosts. Care for the community?

I love both Steinberg and Emagic for the great things they do, but neither can be run as charities to musicians.

I dont see Model E, LM4, Attack and the other steinberg VSTIs and VSTs crippled and compromised. Sure, Cubase has some half assed VSTIs built into the product, but thats only for cubase users. I notice no VSTIs built into Logic. Yet they continue to pump up the price because they added even more fx that I dont want or use.

So their strategy is that my friend should ditch his pricely Cubase investment and time and goto Logic ? What a dumb assed strategy. Granted Logic looks attractive to newbie users, but its suddently become quite expensive.

I told a top emusic guy to his face I begrudge buying the 5.0
upgrade costs. It has nothing I want. They seem more intent on turning it into a Hard Disk recording studio and mixer, rather than refining it as a music production suite. Features many of us have asked for on other boards have not been implemented. Its more multi track recording and more fx etc etc. I'm not saying this is wholey bad, its just that they lost track with their audience maybe and seem to pamper to a certain professional opinion (who they simply adore on their website). Sorry, but I think their money comes from ordinary users, and not input from Mr Big Shot artist. Whine whine whine ... The only thing i want is Midi out from certain VSTIs, and VST multi outs, which has been promised in 5.0.

Um, I'm not a "bigshot artist", I'm just another "nobody", and the reason I switched to Logic was for it's audio recording features. In fact, I didn't even start playing with the synth aspects until a while later. I know several musicians doing harddisk recording on their computers, and only a couple using soft synths. The fact is that harddisk recording is a much more popular aspect, and a much more demanded aspect then soft synths, so they focus more on it. The company I work for sells music software and we get a few calls a day from people interested in home recording, but I've only spoke with about 3 people total that knew what a soft synth was, and only one of them knew what vst was. I'm pretty sure that Eminem and the other "pampered artists" on their site probably don't know the first thing about A/D converters or floating point effect plug-ins, but it's us "ordinary users" that are demanding these features.

I gotta agree with the general theme of this thread. Releasing the stripped down EVP73 totally prevented me from buying it. Hell if it was a Rhodes *AND* a Wurlitzer, I would have plunked down the hundred or so bucks for it. But no they release one keyboard. If I was one of the major software developers I'd take E-magics half assed job on the EVP73, and release a product very similar to the EVP88. I'm not saying flat out rip them off, but there's still no VSTi that does more than one type of E-Piano well. Plus I can hardly listen to music for more than an hour before I hear a Wurlitzer somewhere, so if someone wants to make a good VSTi Wulitzer/E-Piano set, feel free, you'll pick up on all the business E-magic lost from non Logic users who refused to buy a (less than) half assed product. As far as Logic goes I would never switch over to it, just becuase of how complicated the program is. I can't speak for everone here but it is not at all intuitive for me, I mean it takes up over a page in the manual just to tell me how to set up a tempo, that just makes creating music a chore. Ya know, if their instruments sucked we probably wouldn't be complaining, but they don't and that just makes this all the more worse. Anyway I'm just really disappointed with E-magic, they're just not at all cool.

Yeah, i have to agree. although i cant say im extremly partial to either logic or cubase (*both tend to cater more toward hard-disc recording and "professionals" etc.. resulting in bloated software which is often overkill to say the least and horribly INEFFICIENT to actually produce music with.. my opinion*) the truth is that people should buy the product because they just plain cant deny how good it is and how much they need to use it in what they do. NOT because of whatever lame marketing tricks up the sleeve the company(ies) think may be "effective".. the truth is, while logic seems so "professional" (and im not saying that it's not, of course) there is just nothing reaching out to me giving me a passion to want to buy it and spend so much of the time out of my life working with it. I understand companies need not only revenue, but increasing profit margins for growth, but isnt there a road for it that will be good for everyone?

i mean, THAT's what makes a person loyal to a software application/company, is gratitude for making such a unique and irreplacable app..one that is developed in the way the USERBASE asks for, not in the way the "industry" demands. (besides, it's obvious who's suppourting all of these magazines, websites, and software companies.. it's the people who arent really fully "professional" yet, for the most part)

The current userbase of these types of programs is a big slice of the future of the music industry, and, dare i say, the future "big shot musicians/producers" who they will all want using their products, and not just using them, but really loving them.

Overall, i think emagic (or other such houses who take similar irrational approaches) is(are) attempting to compensate for the fact that they arent making the most useful, advanced, USER-satisfying, and forward thinking products they could be. because if they were everyone would be wanting to switch to (or exclusively use) logic and there would be a huge buzz about it right? Instead what you hear is how logic still dosent fully suppourt vsti among other things..

well, that's my view of it..
i mean.. and this is coming from someone who has been planning to buy 5.0 (or whatever version finally suppourts all aspects of vsti etc..)

makes more sense to make the vsti ones MORE rich in features because vsti are SUPPOUSEDLY instruments independant of ANY host software.. isnt that the whole idea? vsti anyone?

Im not saying that logic dosent make good products, they really do, and are almost top notch, but it's a bad idea to p*ss off or even frustrate users who dont/might not own your host software yet.(why else would they be buying them in vsti? unless they just wanted to run the same thing in cubase or another host, in which case wouldnt they want the same instrument they use inside logic?) Just seems like the wrong marketing psychology i guess.. frustrate users into finding out they like your products? hmmm

how about just making the vsti's good so we'll be way more curious about logic/emagic in general?

exponent wrote: "Just seems like the wrong marketing psychology i guess.. frustrate users into finding out they like your products? hmmm
how about just making the vsti's good so we'll be way more curious about logic/emagic in general?"

--

that just sums it up IMHO. very well said.

quote:

---

magellan wrote:
And even if people still think Emagic are dastardly, what about Steinberg implementing HALion's file searching routines on the VST host side and using Cubase's FXP/B format for storing presets? This makes it difficult not only for Logic users but the rest of people using VST plug-ins in non-Steinberg hosts. Care for the community?

---

I suspect the file searching stuff has been added to the host due to issues on the Mac side (i.e. you can't show a file open dialog from a plugin like you can on the PC). I'm a PC dev so I can't be 100% about this.

The FXx file formats have been given to people on the vst plugins developer list and certain hosts do already support them.

Martin

You people are a bunch of whining cry babies. How old are you folks, like 12? Waaah waaaah, I can't get everything I want (because I use a shitty sequencer), so I'm going to trash talk Emagic. They are soooo evil (even though their products kick ass). Waaaaah waaaaah.

Give me a break. Having access to each and every virtual instrument that comes out is not your God-given right. If you want the full Emagic products, buy Logic. If you don't like the stripped-down Emagic VSTis, DON'T BUY THEM. And then shut the hell up, you all are annoying. Geez. Geta life, people.

Well nickgold, take it easy man. It looks like you're assuming that these folks are all whining cubase users, in fact most of the people are Logic users.

I think it's not bad that they're complaining about Emagic, if there weren't any people complaining, we wouldn't have the great products there on the market now. Companies live on feedback of users, it's makes them innovate, and sell even more products...

nickgold flamed: "You people are a bunch of whining cry babies. How old are you folks, like 12? Waaah waaaah, I can't get everything I want (because I use a shitty sequencer), so I'm going to trash talk Emagic. They are soooo evil (even though their products kick ass). Waaaaah waaaaah.
Give me a break. Having access to each and every virtual instrument that comes out is not your God-given right. If you want the full Emagic products, buy Logic. If you don't like the stripped-down Emagic VSTis, DON'T BUY THEM. And then shut the hell up, you all are annoying. Geez. Geta life, people."


<man, what hypocrisy. you're the one sitting here throwing personal playground-like INSULTS AT PEOPLE. THAT'S IMMATURE. We are talking about products, companies, marketing strategies, etc... first of all, in my specific post, i said im not loyal to either emagic nor steinberg, im looking at this from the outside somewhat.

If you want to put yourself on some self-procliamed pedastal of superiority over us "whining babies" maybe you should actually READ THE THREAD? "Give me a break."< give YOURSELF a break man, and all of US ALSO! Noone forced you to read this thread(which you apparently didnt do anyway?) just as you so insultingly point out that noone forces us to use emagic vsti's... maybe you should take your own harsh and rude "advice"..

"And then shut the hell up, you all are annoying. Geez. Geta life, people. " You, in making this statement LITERALLY DO sound like a gradeschool-aged mentality who cant handle others discussing their own opinions.. what's annoying is to have someone bust in on a thread "championing" the developer without even reading the actual discussion. Most of those posts say good things about logic, and most of them dont say anything good about steinberg! I personally included many disclaimers regarding emagic so it would be CLEAR to people that i'm not bashing them or any of their products (in order to avoid flame-inticing posts like yours, nickgold) , just questioning their ways, and it's good to question.

As soon as you start insulting other posters personally, you've crossed the line man. We didnt insult you, and if you take our opinions on software choice, or on the software you use, so personally, then you're the one who really needs to think about "getting a life" and growing up. If you're so steadfast in your choice of logic, then why even waste the time writing the post you wrote? Just let all of us assumed "sh***y sequencer" users wander about blindly in ignorance no?
I mean, you act like we've lost perspective, but i'm not so sure that's not equally true of yourself!

"If you don't like the stripped-down Emagic VSTis, DON'T BUY THEM." Conversely nickgold, if this thread is so childish and annoying, if you dont like what this thread is about, DONT READ IT! your hypocrisy is glaring man.

"you all are annoying. Geez. Geta life, people. "

i must reiterate, you're annoying yourself about us, and your reaction reveals more insight into your personality than it does to any of the people who posted before you, whom you labeled with blanket statements intended to inflict personal disrespect.
Your elitist flame is the only real yucky thing in this whole thread.
If we are so useless in talking about this you were even more useless in writing such a flame abuot it. In other words, if you think we need to "get a life" instead of discussing this, then you REALLY need to "get a life" if you're taking the time to "respond" to us, no? I'm sure your superior self has such better things to do than "talk trash" on us, when noone was really talking trash on emagic to begin with..

If you're going to play the "smartest guy" at least say something intelligent and discriminate. Otherwise all you succeed in doing is contradicting your own "logic" (no pun inteneded) and cluttering the board with your own twisted, largely unfounded, emotional reactions.

I've already said too much. We are all equals here. Dont throw out unwarrented hostility because that warrents hostility being thrown back your way. Last thing we need on here is lame flamewars.. That applys to more in life than just this board.
Happy composing everyone

Well, today I'm primarily a SONAR user but I do love the EVP73, it will hold me for now. Strategically I think Native Instruments is our best friend right now, they have a strategy to support all the hosts. If NI had a software synth subscription program I'd immediatley join. I want all their stuff for the next 5 years or so. Hats off to Emagic for quickly understanding the market need for EVP88..but they won't be the only game in town (for this instrument) for long.

Native Instruments and Waves, that's where my plugin money goes.

-david abraham

Hey exponent.... Pssst...

YOUR MOMMA WEARS ARMY BOOTS! MUAHAHAHAH!!!!



In all seriousness, you took my dis way too hard, man. You guys WERE whining like a bunch of babies, but that's besides the point -- my response was likewise immature and idiotic. So what? This is a chat forum on the freaking Internet for goodness' sakes -- if you can't lighten up and take on a troll when one beckons, I say, get the heck outta here!

Why, however, would any Logic users bitch about the "stripped-down" Emagic VSTi's? I mean, I use Logic, and I like to gloat about the fact that I have access to all of Emagic's cool instruments in their full glory. But hey, that's just immature hypocritical ol' moi...

By the way, you have noticed that the "stripped down" Emagic VSTi's are also quite inexpensive compared to many others that are out there. But of course ya'll failed to mentiont hat little fact...

Exponent was only trying to be helpful to you by demonstrating that this forum is about helping your fellow vst user.

Thankfully most Irish people tend not to stand on ceremony and call it like it is.
So with that in mind Nick, let me say that if you do not like the type of conversation we engage in here why dont you sod off to the ComputerMusic forums if your after some immature arguments, although I must warn you that the moderators over there have also evicted a couple of children/young male adults of late as well

Well I suppose it's a good thing that not all Irish folks are as humorless and stuffy as you, eh? You people really don't sound like any musicians I have ever met, who can take a jab with good humor, and aren't completely oversensitive weenies. No, I don't think I will be going anywhere, it's much too fun harassing the folks on this forum who take themselves way too seriously... :P

I also see that nobody has responded to my actual points in defense of Emagic's marketing strategy. But I certainly didn't expect that, based on the thread to begin with.

Geez, if you're going to whine about Emagic (and whining it was, my friends -- although whining is perfectly ok by me, so quit being so darned defensive already) you should be whining about the fact that Logic 5 just got delayed by 4 months!!! Now that pisses me the hell off, as I am waiting on a few key functions in Logic 5 that will make using virtual instruments MUCH more fulfilling. Oh well. Such is life. Oh heck, i think I will get int he spirit a bit:

EMAGIC FREAKING SUCKS, DUDE! They bite th ebig one! Why can't they stick to the dates they set for releasing new versions! God! That is so lame that they actually pushed back a release date, I have NEVER heard of that before in my life -- Can you imagine it, a software company delaying a product launch, especially when it's a completely new version being written for a completely new set of operating systems?! GEEZ! I think we should all boycott Emagic and send them hate mail and kill their pets.

Hmm, well it doesnt really make sense to me for emagic to not have released their instruments for everyone, cause then more people can buy them and they get more money. Whatever though, there are tons of VSTis to choose from from other companies (namely NI) and no one can tell me they own all of NI's synths and have explored their sonic capabilities 100%. So, while it doesnt make sense to me that emagic is behaving the way they do, im not losing any sleep over it, cause all the really REVOLUTIONARY vsti's (reaktor/absynth) are available to everyone, well to all mac users anyway wahahahah. So you know, its all love, and more time should be spent actually making music as opposed to arguing.

Looks like MDA just settled this for us. I can't wait to get home and download the new MDA electric piano!

well,well boys,......didnt think Id see such a thing,.....

1st of all,..nick gold......quite a ???(watz wrong wit u??)

And 2nd,.....I think its hard to achieve a conclusion as to
whether or not to use logic or not.

(a)the price.
(b)not as combatible,stinjy on the half ass-evp,etc.
(c)multiple outs,and the whole lagging behind bullshit!

Altogether,....(besides people who know their software already),
I think u can almost put logic,and cubase users in 2 different
categories!!

(logic user)Not as soft synth crazy,and as uptodate as your
average vst user!!,However,..more serious about his production!

(cubase user)versatile user that likes all sorts of appz like
reason,rewire,etc.Wild on all the 3rd party plugs,where as
logic users use the emagic plugs(which are the best Ive seen!!)

I suppose that in most cases,there isnt too much a dif sometimes,
but there are your pros and cons if everything!
Personly,...I think emagic rules!!

And dont forget that most big produces arent in to the
soft-synth vibe yet!!,......So to bundle all of this up,
I suppose it can also be up to the consumer as well!!
(although Emagic is gettin more versatile all the time!!)

respect.......winlogic!!

Sorry Jakebhoy, I guess my goal of entertaining you to no end was not successfully met...

Bwah, whatever. *does the "whatever" hand motiion*

I could care less if you are bored by my counter-rantings. I mean, you are reading them, as well as responding...

O poor old Nick, whatever will we do with you, ey?

I think there´s nothing in this topic to get emotional about.
It´s about business, strategies and users.
Each of us has it´s vst-host, and each of us know why they´d chose this one.

And about whining: I still say that emagic is behind it when it comes to vst-implementation. And this is a fact...
But that doesn´t mean that I dislike Logic - I do my living on Logic Audio, and I never regret to buy it.
But as a human being I have wishes, because I know how I would like to have my work done. And in some cases logic isn´t doing a good job for me.

Nick - you might try to be a bit more sensitive when it comes to all the postings in here...

putte

Nick,

Your starting to get boring mate!

Sensitive shmensitive -- I called it like I saw it, and apparently a few people got their feathers ruffled. I'm pretty convinced that that's because I pointed out the obvious fact that they looked like babies making such a big deal pout of such a silly issue. All I can say is...

*shrug*

Every day we all get stiffed by a bunch of megacorps who feel like they can do whatever they want, because they control the world. Spend your energy complaining about (and working against) that, not something as trivial as Emagic's marketing practices. That's all, homies. Try not to take it so personally next time.

I love you all. *smooch*

Btw...

I am the elite KVR user numbah 16! Step to me not, ya punkasses!

well i for one dont see all the posts in this thread as "whining", thats a little too much black and white thinking IMHO.

see, the nice thing about todays production tools is that everything
is based on a handful of standards - that made my life a lot easier the last couple of years. and for that reason im, um, "not too happy" when i see some company trying to establish yet another standard instead of doing the teamplay thing.

be it exclusive logic instruments, digidesign pushing their RTAS plugin format (as if TDM wasnt restrictive enough already), sonar introducing DXI etc...all the same to me, makes the whole computer music thing complicated where it wouldnt have to be.

we *could* have access to all of these fine instruments - and i doubt anyone ever changed platform just because of some plugin he finds attractive, which makes the whole thing not only annoying but stupid on top of that. and when general compability is the idea, what do i care that some stripped down versions cost a couple $ less? thats got nothing to do with it, almost all plugs i know are ridiculously cheap anyway, so if i had the choice id rather pay a handful $ more and get a fully compatible and not stripped down version instead.

not that this is of any real importance to me (or anyone here i would guess) - it just sucks a bit and IMO theres nothing wrong about complaining about it, just as you might complain about that lousy steak you ate in the restaurant the other day its no big deal, but complaining about it feels good anyway and who knows, seeing all the bad feedback emagic gets for their behaviour, perhaps they might change their minds some day. its the users complaints that make a product better in the long run

whining? naaah - thats another league IMHO

Whats so impressive about the logic instruments anyway? Seems to me there are WAY cooler vstis out there than the ones emagic is making. If Reaktor were logic only... waaaaall then i would change sequencers

All I can say is that I love EXS24 -- it ight not be the most extensive virtual sampler out there, but it is really straight-forwardd and powerful, especially when integrated with Logic's MIDI Environment, built-in fx, and sample editor (three things that are obviously lacking from the VSTi version). ES1 is okay, but ES2 looks SLICK. Ihear great things about EVP88/77, but that's not really up my alley.

*shrug*

To each their own -- there are so many choices out there these days, it satrikes me as WHINING to get totally annoyed that you don't have access to ALL of the virtual synths out there. Some people don't even have food -- now that's something to whine about. I'm on a Mac - my software selection is very limited in some regards. However, I made a choice to buy a Mac, and I am more than happy with my decision. So what if I can't have each and every VSTi that comes out? So what if it often takes a longer time for mac versions to come out? I have a phat virtual sampler, well several actually, a bunch of virtual synths, and a hell of a lot of virtual fx. It is ENOUGH.

quote:

---

It is ENOUGH.

---

Gawd, I hate that I'm actually agreeing with you in the end.

But you don't have SynC (pc-only) & for that I pity you.

Ah hell UncleE, I don't even have time to get into Reaktor (shoot that reminds me, i need try try to get a copy of 3.0 at some point, and no, I do not pirate music soft). Honestly, I don'thave much funusing VSTi's in Logic right now, with the programs' current VSTi implementation -- no multiple outs, a pretty piss-poor and bass ackwards automation system, etc. Needless to say, I was pretty pissed off when Iheard that Logic 5, which should clear up all of Logic's current shortcomings as far as I'm concerned, is going to be delayed by four freaking months! But I can wait for quality, I suppose, and a really slick sequencer that I will be able to run inside of OS X. I just hope I can use my current version of EXS24 to activate EXS24 in Logic 5 for OS X. I guess time will tell.