ok, first off i wanna say that this website is dope, im glad i found it. i have a question. i'm no stranger to computer music or synthesis, so lemme have it.

is it possible to build a machine that will simultaneously sequence, process audio (fx), give me at least 16 voices from a sampler, 24 from various synths, and most importantly WILL NOT CRASH? i know this a bit broad so lemme narrow it down. logic audio, battery, reaktor, sim synth, b4, pro52, halion, ppg. these are the softsynths i like and would like to be using. imagine your not limited by funds, and that yo can build your dream machine. is it possible? can you get stable performance with those types of system demands? if so, what cpu/mb would you recommend? i saw a test that showed a p4 1800/asus pt4 getting 32 reverbs, where as the fastest pIIIs were getting half of that. but i've also heard the p4s suck. so what's the truth?

thanks for reading. any help would be most appreciated.

...Get a dual g4 Mac

...Get a dual g4 mac

the thing i sfellas, i have a single 450 g4 mac. and i can't get more than 12 voices from ppg before it/logic crashes. i know the new machines are way faster, but that much faster? i've always had a suspicion that using the directi/o drivers (i use the digi001) and oms for midi was a big part of the problem, does anyone confirm that?

On my old G4/450 I was able to get 14 tracks of decent VSTi action: 2 ppgs, 2 pro52, 3-4 ES1, 6-8 EXS. And when things got overloaded, I was able to print a track, mute it, and the CPU would go down. I never had a "hard crash".

You need to allocate a lot of memory to Logic (I do 240 meg) when running VSTis, but I've found it to be very stable. (I did find that I needed to NOT use a couple of instruments: Dynamo is EVIL)

Now that I'm using a dual 800, I get even more stuff going. I've also been crack-free for over a year, which significantly helped stability. Crack kills, people. ;->

I love Mac, and when Logic goes OSX native, look the HELL out! I figure that for the first few months, I'll "get by" with EXS, ES1, ES2, and EVP as my "only" VSTis. At least until Pro52 and PPG get coded for OSX.

PPG

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: ppgwave ]

Since you want to use a bunch of VSTi's and are looking for stability above all else, you might want to concider Cubase instead of Logic, because from what I hear Logics VST integration is still a bit shaky. Though version 5 is said to be better. Also a mac seems like the way to go in regard to stability. Too bad I'm a diehard PC person, and Macs only confuse and anger me, easier to use my ass!

thanks for the responses. keep em comin.
by the way, is there a site dedicated to the performance of soft synths on various machines? like a table of real-world accounts? that would be cool.

im with alan here, except the SCSI thing perhaps, a mortal UDMA drive offers more than enough eprformance these days.

so, get a dual mac or a dual PC, whatever is your preferred platform. i could list the pros and cons for each but i dont want to get myself into some platform discussion again :-)

oh and yes, nuendo is kewl

Just one note on the Cubase vs Logic thang:
Logic's support for VSTis is admittedly incomplete: it doesn't support large FXBs (making it almost useless for HALion) and it doesn't support multiple outputs...

But in terms to scalability and stability, I've actually had better luck with Logic than Cubase.

So feature-wise, Cubase has better support. But Logic is NOT less STABLE with VSTis.

PPG

quote:

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Originally posted by suyenfung:
is it possible to build a machine that will simultaneously sequence, process audio (fx), give me at least 16 voices from a sampler, 24 from various synths, and most importantly WILL NOT CRASH?

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I have a meagre PIII 1GHz PC with a highly generic soundcard [bad drivers] that will easily do that. Of course, i'm using ORION which Mac (l)users can't do ;o) As pointed out by others, it depends what mix of instruments i'm using but if i avoid too many instances of JXSynth or SCORPION in unison mode i reckon i can get it up there. All with lots of EQ, Ultraverb and FX running.

Why anyone would be using a Mac in this century is quite beyond me. There was certainly a time, perhaps 10 years ago, when it was the only choice for graphics and/or audio but those days are so far gone that it's just not funny.

Ignore any perceived differences between the two camps, it all comes down to the fact that heaps of people write software for Windoze but mostly only fat, bloated, greedy corporations write software for Mac OS [which is such a bad OS it's also not funny (i'm using to write this now)].

I've always been a PC man but i never had much of an opinion about Mac's [they sure look cool] until i started using one. Now i really hate 'em. It's not because of the differences [i've adapted quite well to Linux], it is the pursuit of form over function [stupid hockey-puck, one-button mouse] and their complete inability to multi-task.

Do yourself a favour, get a PC. you don't need to go overboard, just get a single-processor machine. I would recommend an AMD Athlon over a P4 any day. my current recommendation would be:

Abit K7G RAID motherboard,
Athlon 1.4GHz [266MHz FSB],
256mb DDR RAM,
Creative AUDIGY soundcard [it plays soundfonts in hardware and has good ASIO drivers],
2 x 7200RPM ATA-100 hard-drives in RAID-0.

This whole set-up will cost less than an Imac. It won't look as pretty but it will beat the pants off anything at that price.

BeOS was the best chance for a reliable and powerful music making OS. We had our chance and we blew it.

maybe in terms of being able to use many virtual synths/samplers you should check out www.creamware.com

they have dsp card that take the load off you cpu...I think this would be a better option interms of getting lots of polyphony and multi-timbrality + lots of FX

I won't give you some advices about the choice of your platform : PC or Mac, I don't know what's the more stable...
And I'm not into polemics.

But I strongly agree with PPGWave: if you don't want your setup to crash every session, don't use cracked softs, particularly hosts. Cracked Cubase or Logic are known for their unstability...
And often, you can't update cracked softs... so don't expect thing will get better!
Another big thing, obvious, but use only your computer gear for music making. Avoid installing games, and don't even think of freeware, shareware, and some demo versions of hosts or plugins.
I'm on a PC, and I've experienced many times that demo versions do a big mess in the registry and the files, even after you desinstall all of them.

Good luck !!!

PS: ah, does someone know how to buy a 'Computer Music' Issue in France - the one with VSTi ?.. It seems this magazine is no more released in there ! Thanks a lot!

In terms of vsti's and cpu load, don't use more voices than you need to. ModelE, for example comes up set for 16 voices, but you don't need that many for say a bass part. Remember, original Mini was mono - a lot of times you can get away quite well with 2 voices and use more as necessary for pads.

Ditto PPG and Pro-52, etc.

In my experience, this seems to help lower cpu usage.

Also... in terms of audio. If you're going to transfer your tracks over to another system (e.g. Pro Tools, etc.) it's best to leave entire chunks of audio in your arrangement, i.e. solid from start of song to end of song. It makes it easier for them to fly it in and line it up.

BUT... it seems that Cubase runs better when you don't have so many wall-to-wall tracks. In other words, if on a given track, the audio only comes in on 1 chorus, for example, you can use scissors tool to snip away access (if any). You can also use optimize arrangement command. I believe this is non-destructive.

At any rate, that seems to make a big difference in how many tracks you can get away with.

Dealing with segments like this, I can do about 60-65 before I hit the wall. Starts to get shaky above 60. That includes several instances of effects, dynamics, plug-ins, and vstis. Or rather, not the vsti's I guess. (I like to print everything to audio - including vsti's and external midi - before I sit down to do the final mix.) Oh, and this is with mixture of 16-bit, 24-bit, and 32-bit tracks.

Note, this does not include a sampler (yet). I have Gigastudio, but as I said, I print to audio before mixing down. I do sometimes run Giga and Cubase (and several vstis) concurrently at writing stage.

If you're buying a new system, definitely go for dual cpus over single cpu. Even dual cpus that are not as fast are better than single high-powered cpu. I have single now, but will definitely get dual next time. My understanding is that Cubase basically has four main cpu intensive functions. Dual system splits up two functions per cpu. Apparently, current cpus are more than adequate to handle two of these main functions, but have trouble when you throw all four at them. This is especially true for PC, but applies to Macs too.

Also better to have separate hd dedicated specifically to audio.

Good luck!

All systems will crash if you pile enough synths and plugs into them. There ain't no perfect system.

We run a video studio too, which uses mega plugins and a helluva lot of juice ... possibly more than audio.

Every time we upgrade we go for the fastest PC dual processors, dual monitors, 1gb ram latest, and fastest scsi drives affordable, 64mb screen card, and have a dedicated dsp board.

It's a dream system but we can still crash it when we're greedy.

Point is: You'll always have to work within the limits of your system.

Due to the fact that I no longer participate in online forums, I have erased this message.

Hey, B.i.T.

Thanks for the tip on 98lite. Looks interesting and reasonably priced too. Downloaded the demo and will try.

That's a good point about every system having its limitations and something to keep in mind when purchasing anything. Seems the more power you can have, the more you're going to want to have 'cos the software is always evolving and getting more complex, and the things we want to do are getting more complex too.

Liondream

Bones:
1) Orion or Reason or Storm will give you great polyphony because they're optimized for this sort of thing. Reason runs great on Mac AND PC.

2) Macs are great, PCs are great. Lah dee dah. It's not worth going into it.

PPG

Like Bones, I would recomend a PC as well. I am also using Orion Pro. I have a athlon 900 and I don't get bogged down until I have alot of stuff going. My current song is using 12 synths and 1 effect so far. I am peaking at %22 usage. When I add all the fx I will get up to 70-80 but then I will turn up the latency and do a final mix with 30 ms instead of 6-14ms. Some synths really eat up the power. I have found that the pentagon is very lite on CPU usage.
As far as mac's go I can't stand the one button mouse. AArgh. Anyway there are so many cheap and free vst, and vsti's for the PC that I believe it would be foolish to consider anything else. Someone could get Orion Pro, ntrack, all the free fx and synths, and spend another 200 on a soundcard and have a very pleasant system that rivals much more in hardware. Of course for me I have supplemented my synths with even more and more synths.
good luck
dw

Due to the fact that I no longer participate in online forums, I have erased this message.

Right now XP has better memory management than any OS availible for DAW,including OSX 10.1.,in fact an improvement over 2k as well.The main reason for crashes in Win 98/OS 9 is poor memory management.OS 9 has an edge in that you can specify allocated memory to specified apps,but is still no subsitute for OS memory management.For instance,when you change your mind and call up another VSTi instead it remains in memory in both Win/Mac Os's.

B.i.T.

I will look into "micro install" if I can do that... I'm running ME. If I like the demo, I'm definitely going to get this.

Alan

That's frightening about the vstis remaining in memory! But not surprising. When writing, I tend to do a lot of changing around when deciding which sound and which vsti I'm looking for. How can one clear the memory? Will simply restarting Cubase do the trick or do you need to reboot the entire machine?

Do you know whether there's a similar thing happening with regular effects too?

Nice idea but in practice would be difficult to, for a lot of VSTi's like PPG and Absynth the amount of CPU usage is dependant on the patch you're playing, the release time etc.

If you want loads of reverbs buy a Powercore or UAD-1

Tim - trading in my G4/450 for an 867 today.

Thats a possible way to go,get a dual Palomino setup with Win Xp with either scsi or raid and get a Uad card for effects and use the extra cpu for just VSTi's,and get as much DDR Ram as you can afford(Cheap now).Oh yeah,Nuendo seems a bit more solid than Cubase as well.

It's not just VSTi's,it's everything.Win 2k and XP and OSX 10.1 do away with this.Win Me is more of a mess in this regard than 95/98 /OS 9.On another note someone at musicplayer forum heard that the TC Powercore will now port VSTi which is a big plus for the Mac in this quest.UAD(PC) will probably keep up with the Joneses so to speak though.

You could buy the back issue of Computer Music with the CM101 on-line from the magazines website, you should be able to organise delivery to france there.

Just to update Alan's post about Powercore and VSTi's they have announced a monophonic synth called the Powercore 01 which looks incredibly similar to an SH101, there's a picture of it in this months SOS ad. There is also something coming from Waldorf for it which is vocoder based. Still no sign a Virus port for it yet though.

The Mac monopoly on this superb card is about to end, the v1.5 software which be available in December along with other new plugins for it is PC as well. Then we can really see how it stacks up against the UAD-1

Tim

quote:

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Originally posted by realmarco:
maybe in terms of being able to use many virtual synths/samplers you should check out www.creamware.com

they have dsp card that take the load off you cpu...I think this would be a better option interms of getting lots of polyphony and multi-timbrality + lots of FX

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My opinion on all these DSP cards coming out is... For the price you spend on those, you could either upgrade your computer, or even buy a new computer to dedicate to Softsynths (with hosts like DSound)

quote:

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Originally posted by lowweek:
...And I'm not into polemics.

Another big thing, obvious, but use only your computer gear for music making. Avoid installing games, and don't even think of freeware, shareware, and some demo versions of hosts or plugins.
I'm on a PC, and I've experienced many times that demo versions do a big mess in the registry and the files, even after you desinstall all of them.

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This can't be true... I must be dreaming...
Are you suggesting that synthesizers like "QuadraSID" and "TBL" or effects like "Trasher" do harm the users system? Or that they change ANYTHING in the registry? A lot of my fellow programmers are likely to have the same view...

So you're not even trying shareware? And you give 'advice' to other people asking them to do the same?

You seem WANT to miss out on a lot of good products on purpose...

What do you want on this website or in this forum? More than 90% of the content of this site is about shareware synthesizers.

I'm baffled...