| Author | Topic: NO more Synths...... Please! | |
| Apogee | Posted: 2nd October 2001 17:17 | |
It seems like the majority of the VSTinstruments that are out at the moment are all synths, only a few are doing other types of instruments i.e. B4, EVP73, mdaPiano. I love synths, and I have a few of the classics myself, don't get me wrong, some of these VSTinstruments are very good at what they do, I would just like to see other types of instruments get released. It apears that "its the same Piss, in a different bottle". What does everyone else think! | ||
| brittnell | Posted: 2nd October 2001 17:24 | |
"Where's my KAZOO!"
 | ||
| etherdesign | Posted: 2nd October 2001 19:23 | |
Like what? Pretty much everything else would best be done with a multitimbral sampler.. Who wants to use up a VST slot with a instrument like VB-1 or something that is just a specialized sampler.. | ||
| Jambo | Posted: 2nd October 2001 19:38 | |
I just want more of everything, whether they be synths or physically modeled violins, or Kazoos !!!
I don't think the Kazoo is ever going to make it though, I reckon JXPlugins have pussied out on us  | ||
| Teksonik | Posted: 2nd October 2001 19:54 | |
I can't get enough VSTi synths but thats just my opinion.What I would like to see is a vst that would let you use the computer's qwerty keyboard as a "midi" controller.Say letters Z and X would raise and lower filter Q.Letters A and S would control say pitch bend or whatever-you get the idea.I don't know if such a thing is possible but it would be on my list of must have vst's. | ||
| midisax | Posted: 2nd October 2001 20:16 | |
I thought VB-1 used rudimentary modeling techniques, not samples. | ||
| emef | Posted: 2nd October 2001 22:11 | |
yeah i know what you mean about softsynths.....a lot of them are very samey.....one i do like though is a drumsynth.....waldorf attack........it has a touch of the devil about it i think  | ||
| estellemontenegro | Posted: 2nd October 2001 23:09 | |
Definetely. Absynth is a nice Idea, to bad it's not for the PC, nor does it run on Dual Processors as a VST instrument. I think the trends will start looking at Analog's successor's IE FM and Wavetable (like the Wavestation AD). Personally I'm tired of Saw, Square and Sine.
quote: | ||
| etherdesign | Posted: 2nd October 2001 23:43 | |
I dunno.. but if synths like Sonic Syndicate's Junglist are the next wave.. bring them on.. IMO the sound quality of this synth is tops.. and it has many non-standard functions.. two 12db filters with a seperation control, two pitch envelopes, very nice effects section, additive waveforms that can be morphed into many different waveforms with saturation.. it's beautiful..
Physical modeling is still too slow.. memory is the cheapest ever now, I'd rather just load up a nice accurate multisample and if you want it to sound different, add effects to taste.. The best physical modelling I have heard so far is Tassman and it is a beast.. it sounds gorgeous, but in a multitracking environment it's just not too feasible.. it's going to take alot more processing power and alot more upgrades for us to be able to take advantage of new-generation instruments.. | ||
| exponent | Posted: 3rd October 2001 01:05 | |
Once again i tried to get one main point across and ended up writing an essay in the process here it is in .doc for anyone who wants to hear the details of what i had to say about it.
Here's the short version: Everything, unless it's a sampler or sample-based, is a synth of some type. A synth is anything that has paramters and is used to synthesize or "build from parts" a sound or timbre to be played musicially(or haphazardly). Even the analog/hybrid synths have a ways to go before they can truly match the programming depth and sound quality of their hardware counterparts(with a few notable exceptions, which are currently the best synths avalible) we're getting there, but it's taking some time.. i think we should worry more about what we are going to do with our instruments creatively than worry about having some new instrument/syntesis type that will magically make our music have meaning or something. New things are good, but most people wont even learn to use something really capable or new if it isnt just the same "rebottled piss" .. which is why new technologys or physical models are slow to appear. For now i just want the best synths possible of the "traditional" type, and to see the start of more modelling, but modeling will take some years to mature i think before it's totally practical. I t's best to hope for some very nicely designed and optimized "traditional" hybrid synths with very high sound quality, full frequency sound and "no" alaising.. (at this point even with some of the synths that claim "NO ALIASING"(which is impossible i think when digital you can only minimize it) which you can easily notice increasing alaising when playing anything above C8 in many cases, which is somewhat of a glaring problem IMO, i love doing sparkling chiming things all the way from c8-c10 etc.. and well it generally just makes you feel an instrument is impotent if it cant play the whole note range accurately.. fact is i have a feeling many of the current ones arent even designed to reproduce anything over c9.. but hopefully that will change.. i wanna be able to play up to where i cant hear the frequencies anymore(and high frequency accuracy in the FILTERS too!) Oh, and btw the new FmHeaven is so classy!, and Junglist is very good and unique(could use some more engine parameters tho i think) [ 03 October 2001: Message edited by: exponent ] | ||
| paul minot | Posted: 3rd October 2001 03:09 | |
I would like a really good lead guitar emulator VSTi. Samplers really suck at this, IMHO. It seems a really good dedicated VSTi with good MIDI implementation, distortion options, and a great GUI (NOTHING like the VB-1, for God's sake!) would be VERY popular for all us fretboard-challenged keypokers. | ||
| autodafe | Posted: 3rd October 2001 04:15 | |
Yes, there are too many VSTi out there, and too many of them are just synths...
The market is evolving and many developers are directing towards different kind of instruments. But I think we can all benefit from the efforts of small developers making another Synth Plug-in. A vocoder or something similar would be great... | ||
| Horse | Posted: 3rd October 2001 05:21 | |
Bring on the REX file player.
 | ||
| G. | Posted: 3rd October 2001 06:15 | |
quote: Try the KS-metal ensemble for SynC Modular from my page http://web.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/music.htm It will run in the unregistered version of SM. Cheers, G. | ||
| bobb | Posted: 3rd October 2001 06:26 | |
I think that the evolution of musical instruments describes clearly that we really need something quite new. Not just another synth, another sampler, another modelling of an acustic instrument ect. All acustic instruments can be emulated or sampled, with more or less good results. If we are happy using the same old instruments, there will be no further evolution of new instruments.
Do we really need to make music with instruments based on hitting, plucking strings ? Do we need to make music with instruments based on hitting the skin of a dead goat? Do we really need to make music on instruments based on blowing air thru a pipe or simulare? What we really need is a soundsource that gives us something new, that reflects the 21' century, not just variations of an old theme. I say, make a lot of new synths, with possibilities we just can imagine, and maybe not are able to imagine. Just think of the productivity J.S.Bach would had if he had the equipement we have. He would be thrilled with synths and samplers, not only using the unstable organs and pianos that needed tuning every week. So my conclusion is, we alredy have samplers that emulates the old instuments, and the quality of them are getting better and better. Let's have a new instrument, that nobody have heard of, or even though of. | ||
| kevvvvv | Posted: 3rd October 2001 07:10 | |
I WANT MORE SYNTHS.
There ... I've said it. But Exponent is right (read his doc). Without creativity, more synths means nothing. Next time you're flipping through presets and getting pissed off because you can't find nirvana in a box, try this: Pick a sound, any sound. Play one note and really (I mean REALLY) listen. Play a couple of notes. A chord. Absorb what you hear. Feel it all over your body. Love it to death. Write music. (Synth problem solved) | ||
| Horse | Posted: 3rd October 2001 07:39 | |
quote | ||
| Jambo | Posted: 3rd October 2001 07:57 | |
quote: And he'd spend the rest of his time sufing the net looking for these new plugins What a sorry state our musical history would be in! [ 03 October 2001: Message edited by: Jambo ] | ||
| bobb | Posted: 3rd October 2001 08:28 | |
quote: That's exactly my point. Find something to hit, kick, shake or blow on, to produce sounds, new sounds that never has been use in music before, and make it sound great. My limited imagination can't figure out what to make new sounds by, but I'm shure someone else has a mind that allows them to go beyond traditional thinking of what a musical instrument should be. Not only sound, but the way of playing instruments.....remember Jerry Lee Lewis butt playing the piano | ||
| bobb | Posted: 3rd October 2001 08:30 | |
BTW, when do I get antother status than "Needs to post more" ? | ||
| lyly007 | Posted: 3rd October 2001 08:39 | |
IMO, can we really say there is too many Vsti?
Can we really blame 'cause they're a majority of synth emulation? Talking about Bach, we could create with a honkytonk piano but he could also create with a complete symphonic orchestra. So we have to stay wise and use "only" what we need to create and don't be overflow by all this amazing technology. BTW, what I need to see now is real new Vsti with new sounds, not based on existing instruments (maybe Absynth and Attack are the first in this way). Peace | ||
| shortyedwards | Posted: 3rd October 2001 11:13 | |
I think JS Bach would've kept on with the MDA Organ or perhaps the MDA Harpsichord, but would've complained to Paul Kellett about the interface. hehe
Doug [ 03 October 2001: Message edited by: Doug ] | ||
| troubleman | Posted: 3rd October 2001 11:43 | |
i;d like to c a vsti of the Arp odyssey
one of the more classy and original sounding synths troubleman | ||
| saulc | Posted: 3rd October 2001 12:14 | |
What I would like to see is more physical models along the lines of the excellent flutes, strings and guitars that have been produced for sync modular. And how about a vst sampler that does something along the lines of DASH's acoustically modelled sample players, then we get the best of both worlds, with the accuracy of sampling and the dynamic versatility of physical or virtual analog modelling. That sax sounds so good and the guitar is pretty cool too, imagine being able to control any multisampled instrument in that way.
I'm not saying don't do analog or other synths because as junglist has proved, there is still a lot of fresh stuff that can be done, but please, please, please can we have some more physical modelling and some more original synths....  | ||
| eti | Posted: 3rd October 2001 14:08 | |
quote: Oh yeah, that'll come in handy. | ||
| threeyedone | Posted: 3rd October 2001 14:22 | |
personally i dont even want physical model type flutes and traditional instruments.
How about a physical model of a 40 foot long didgeridu that is side blown like a flute, has sympothetic strings running all along inside the tube and huge keyholes... making physical models of real instruments seems completely pointless to me. Ive heard someones patch of a "bowed flute" for sync... coolest sound i have ever heard. more imagination please | ||
| TristezaOrange | Posted: 3rd October 2001 14:28 | |
Yeah, my dream is to create music in sub-human hearing level frequencies that causes the listener to visit the toilet or see ghosts. Or maybe both. And the track would be called 'Ghosts Tn The Toilet). Not quite healthy, I spose... Also, I want a VSTi that sounds like a club hitting a monkey on the head in the environment of a spheral cave that exists in an asteroid floating in space. Without raising protests from Greenpeace. Speaking of Greenpeace... Ohh, ouch... Excuse me, I have to go puke now... | ||
| kevvvvv | Posted: 3rd October 2001 21:27 | |
Slight digression, but somehow relevant:
Has anyone seen the movie Amadeus? It shows how Mozart meets the challenge of changing musical forms (like softmusic today) and develops something really new. This compelling film is for all musos whatever their tastes. | ||
| GemTwo | Posted: 3rd October 2001 21:32 | |
Well Folks,
Good Things: 1. that there are many synths to choose from. 2. for people dont wanna buy the hardware Bad Things: 1. VSTi/DXi:s is due to the huge market, very hard to edit and "get into" and creating your own stuff. 2. If you have all released synts, its very hard so STOP donwload them and take a look/listen to what you already got. Anyone agree? | ||
| bajongo | Posted: 3rd October 2001 21:36 | |
I want more synths, too.
I don't want another crappy "analog" synth, only make good ones. And this is the vital point: ONLY MAKE GOOD SYNTHS!!! Make synths that are better than the ones before. If you don't want to make them really different then please make them better then what we already have available. I would like to see new cool synths which have new approaches, combining things that were not combined before. It's in the nature of man (woman) to want new things. But it's also normal to want things that are somehow "known". I think that most people are happy with a combination of both. That's the reason why ROMplers like M1, Triton, Trinity and all that stuff are/were so successful. E.g. Karma is a Trinity with some modern automatic accompaniment, nothing more. Be happy, make music.  | ||
| bobb | Posted: 3rd October 2001 21:36 | |
I can't remember why I haven't seen Amadeus yet, but I'll rent/buy it tomorrow.
Good tip, kewvwvwv...........how do he do that? Ooops......it's a font thing. looks different in edit-mode wvwvwvwvw [ 03 October 2001: Message edited by: bobb ] | ||
| paul minot | Posted: 5th October 2001 03:22 | |
I tried the SyncModular patch--it was OK, but what I would like is not a patch in an all-purpose synth with unintuitive tweaking--rather a dedicated guitar emulator in which you could intuitively adjust the tone, distortion, attack, etc., with a GUI that makes it easy. You know, like an EVP88 or B4 equivalent. Granted it would take more of an original conception than those instruments, but when you change the Leslie speed on a B4, it looks like you're moving a switch--not tweaking a synth parameter. Also some Fender Strat/Tele/LesPaul presets would be cool. | ||
| G. | Posted: 5th October 2001 05:46 | |
quote: The Karplus-Strong algorithm (used in KS-metal) is *the* physical model of plucked string instruments, so I think that for guitars, this is the way to go. When you play a bit with it (did you read the txt file included?) you will realise the power of having all those knobs there. Better lots of knobs than few! Cheers, G. | ||
| Z | Posted: 5th October 2001 07:12 | |
quote: I already have it, it's me on my trusty Les Paul Custom (yes, the very King of guitars!) | ||
| saulc | Posted: 5th October 2001 07:37 | |
If we could get good physical models of real instruments and maybe a few combined in a single VSTi, then maybe it would be possible to do things like growing instruments to rediculous sizes or combine drivers from one type (say bowing for example) with the resonator of another (say a pipe). Yes I agree to an extent that just emulating real instruments could seem pointless. There should be the possibility to do both, emulate the real instruments to re-create the dynamics and emulate unreal instruments to create new sounds. I also think that any real instrument emulation should allow you to change the instrument beyond its normal limits.
How about doing a multi-emulation using various algorithms along the lines of the staccato systems stuff and maybe including multi-sample playback with the ability to pass the output through waveguide algorithms so that we could do things like play a piano through a saxaphone.... Could include a virtual analog source too. The possibilities are endless, but it would have to depend on how far a developer was willing to go and also on the performance needed to support such things. VSTi developers have the opportunity to develop 'outside the box' and create some truely incredible and unique instruments, which hardware developers would have to spend years and $millions to produce. So I say lets have some more original synths using all kinds of virtual instrument technology, maybe then people will look at a VSTi and review entirely on its own merits without having to draw comparisons to vintage hardware. | ||
| shaifire | Posted: 17th October 2001 14:23 | |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bobb:
Just think of the productivity J.S.Bach would had if he had the equipement we have. He would be thrilled with synths and samplers, not only using the unstable organs and pianos that needed tuning every week.] Bach wouldn't have produced half the amount of music he did if he would have had to spend his time sifting through the overwhelming amount of instruments and finguring out how to configure his soundcard. Haven't you guys noticed that nobody produces as much as they did in the bad ol'days? They spent all their time on the MUSIC. | ||
| putte | Posted: 17th October 2001 14:48 | |
Bach.....hmmmm.....didnīt he worked his stuff out on Atari ST?
 (i know I shouldnīt post such silly answers, but....) putte | ||
| SpasBoy | Posted: 17th October 2001 23:41 | |
A *new* instrument? right.yeah ...sure.
There are no new instruments. If no one has thought of it, it might be hard to build. GET OVER IT. there are no new sounds. there are no new Melodies. there is no new music. it all self rightous new age crap/. I am sick of listening to ppl dribble. Spastic. | ||
| mercury | Posted: 18th October 2001 00:55 | |
what you guys are forgetting is that there are many cool different synths out there. if they sound the same to you then it is probably because you are not programming well. Sicksynth by tobybear may be the most futuristic synth so far. the microcomputer makes tinny digital sounds, the junglist is deep, waldorf attack has tons of different percussion sounds, dreamstation can make crazy sweeps, muonpro puts the 303 to shame, fxpansion dr001 has tons of sequencing and beat-trick options, the pro52 and ppgwave are almost endless, the quadrasid makes beutiful waveforms, etc., etc. if you are limited by these and reaktor, you may never be happy. using presets is part of the problem. i wish synth programmers would stop including them so people would have to make stuff on their own. then people would only download or buy 1 synth and spend a lot of time tweaking it. granted i agree new things would be nice, but we should give props to people like tobybear and a lot of independant makers for giving us so much variety already. | ||
| BONES | Posted: 18th October 2001 06:30 | |
Yeah, I'm just about tapped out. Pentagon 1 has some amazing presets but I really don't care. I have ORION's generators and half-a-dozen VSTi's and I can do absolutely anything I want to with them. If I had P1 I probably wouldn't need any of the others but as I already have them it follows that I don't need IT. Anyway, it's butt-ugly and very intimidating to look at and I can afford to be that picky. | ||
| spritex | Posted: 18th October 2001 07:17 | |
I think there are far too many simple and not-so-good sounding VCO-VCF-VCA emulation VSTi's. FM7 looks promising.
As a side note: For the people who wanted a good (modelled) lead guitar, flutes, analog with great anti-aliasing (high notes sound fine) and much more. Do yourselves a BIG favour and check out the Korg Oasys PCI! I believe you can still get it for $500 at Guitar Center USA. It is incredible value and sounds better than most any real synth out there. It doubles as a low-latency ASIO card as well. And saves your CPU power for VSTi's. Works fine with Logic/Cubase etc. Has as much DSP power as a TC Powercore. The only drawback is that it doesn't (currently) have Win2k/XP or OSX drivers. Korg had to drop the price / discontinue (?) it because people were not wise enough to check it out before (or their marketing department weren't up to the task)! Dowload the "User Guide" and "Patches and Effects guide" from: http://www.korg.com/service/downloads.asp?A_PROD_NO=OASYSPCI and see for yourself what you get. Note that the 2.0 software update added almost all of Triton ROM samples and afterwards for example an excellent Vocoder has become downloadable (better than any other soft vocoder I have heard). - Jouni http://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?A_PROD_NO=OASYSPCI | ||
| liqih | Posted: 18th October 2001 21:41 | |
Just wanna get in the physical model topic:
I got some clear ideas on obtaining interesting sounds from physical models, but I can just make ton of SynC Modular patches: some of them are at my site someothers are in my pc drive. I'm looking for a programmer to bring the stuff to VST plugins. Already asked to someone, I hope start the collaboration. Anyway who is interested in new powerfull physical modelled synths could write: "Please programmers go with Liqih!" happily yours | ||
| SpasBoy | Posted: 18th October 2001 22:10 | |
The problems with Physical models is that
1.they are generally more CPU intensive than a basic Subtractive Synth. 2.there aren't that Many physical models. That K-S string model is the only one I have heard of for a String 3. Just cause its a physical model doesn't mean its a good one or willactually produce sounds similar to the intended Instrument. I can Model a plucked String on a sh 101, fast attack fast decay long release.... It just doesn't sound that close to a real string/. Spastic | ||
| liqih | Posted: 19th October 2001 01:32 | |
AFAIK
// The problems with Physical models is that 1.they are generally more CPU intensive than a basic Subtractive Synth. // that can be true but a "basic" Subtractive doesn't produce an "interesting" sound as a basic PM , usually you need modulations and effects to bring the "vco vcf" sound alive. Due to the different generative method a PM sound is less dull just as start. // 2.there aren't that Many physical models. That K-S string model is the only one I have heard of for a String // there is ONE physical model for each instrument but you can design it in different ways and different degrees of quality, just like a 2-pole LP filter in Subtractive // 3. Just cause its a physical model doesn't mean its a good one or willactually produce sounds similar to the intended Instrument. // yes absolutely, anyway I think that the main pleasure is about to modify and to elaborate the model so that unusual sounds can be obtained. // I can Model a plucked String on a sh 101, fast attack fast decay long release.... It just doesn't sound that close to a real string/. // that's not a model of the physical behaviour of a plucked string, just emulation of amplitude envelope | ||
| SpasBoy | Posted: 19th October 2001 02:47 | |
//
2.there aren't that Many physical models. That K-S string model is the only one I have heard of for a String // there is ONE physical model for each instrument but you can design it in different ways and different degrees of quality, just like a 2-pole LP filter in Subtractive ------------------------ WHAT???? a Model is a Model - K-S Model is one interpretation of the physical action of a plucked string. It is not the ONLY interpretation. Newtonian theory is a model of the universe. it is not the only model. (and is in some respects considered incorrect, or at least incomplete.) you are talkin crap. and my 101 patch IS a PHYSICAL model it is a model of the amplitude of the vibration of the string. Its just a really crappy Model. Spastic | ||
| spritex | Posted: 19th October 2001 06:23 | |
quote: FYI, Here is a list on the max polyphony of some of the Oasys physical models (remember, almost no CPU power taken because it runs on DSPs): http://www.korg.com/oasys_pci_faq_html/oasys_pci_polyphony.htm Plus some mp3 examples: http://www.korg.com/oasyspci_synth_demos.htm http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oasys-pci/message/4602 http://artists2.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Jimi_Jones/ (Track Crazy 4 U 100% Oasys.) You can also download and run the Oasys software without the card to check the interface and the algorithms. Sorry if this is a bit off-topic VSTi-wise but I'm so glad I didn't miss this all... For $500 purchasing this card is a no-brainer for any musician working with a computer (except those who _must_ be solely on Win2k/XP) - it is worth much more. | ||
| liqih | Posted: 19th October 2001 14:01 | |
ok Spasboy,
you're starting a nominalistic philosophic dicussion. we just use the word Model maybe in a different way. I say there is One final model of the universe, an approximative or incorrect model is just on the way to it. maybe I'm talking crap, but I don't need that you agree with me. I just express my point of view. if your 101 patch IS a PHYSICAL model every synth outthere is able to do physical modeling so what are we talking about? |
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