Time to buy a new VSTi, and it's a toss-up between two, so all recomendations welcome (yes i read the reviews first ).

It's between Pentagon I (I *love* the demo) and VAZ 2001 (I love the original VAZ, but without a demo...)

Because I can't try VAZ 2001, it might be of note to mention I use Fruityloops as myu VST host (in case there are any issues there).

All input highly appreciated.

TIA,

Asylus

Well, i'm pondering getting vaz2001 also myself.

I havent heard of how it's doing with Floops but i'd hope to assume that martin has tested it in there and (like he said about OrionPro) that if there are problems, he wants them reported so they can be fixed! I'm still weighing whether to get vaz, one reason is because i dont like vsti's that open in a seperate program window from the host, and someone told me that that's how vaz2001 vsti works.. heck even reaktor's window is held inside the host as this point..

But.. then there is so much to vaz2k1 that is good, even outside of the vsti features.. especially i think the vaz sound is very unique and unmatched.. but the same would also be somewhat true of the pentagon, which has that emerging "rgc" sound... it's very much a toss-up, but personally i'd get vaz first, even tho pentagon is also very good.
Decisions, decisions.. !

I vote for Pentagon 1, it's easier to handle IMHO
for its VSTi concept ,
and great sound, lot of features etc...

See this is the thing. I've heard loads of VAZ sound demos (not 2001, but legacy VAZ), and got to try it out on the music shop's computer a couple times. Really neat. But then I flipped through some the the seemingly billions of presets that Pentagon I has, and was overwhelmed by the diversity of sounds it produces.

Thanks all for the feedback. I'm still undecided, so more ideas and opinions are more than welcome.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that I find it hard to buyt a product "blind"... I'd really like to be able to try VAZ to relly make the decision for myself. But c'est la vie

Cheers,

Asylus

Pentagon is absolutely amazing...
On my latest track, I used pentagon sounds for everything except the drums, just modyfing original presets...
Oh this was for a commercial/progressive housey type track...
i love pentagon

I have used P1 on a few tracks now. I'm using P1 for things I could not use anyother synth for. I really like the sync to host stuff. I sold my last hardware synth, because I was able to create a patch in p1 and make it sound just as good. I still have to recreate a few more patches, but I can work around with some fx and delay.
There are only two problems with P1 from my experience.
1. With certain patches, in the upper register, and under certain circumstances there is some hard cold digital sounds coming out of my 'puter and pentagon.
2. The pitch bend in the upper register are very good, but not flawless.
I could be doing something wrong here, but these are my findings.

As far as VAZ goes, I just can't afford to buy it without testing it out. I really wish that companies would offer a 'special offer' with a demo. It is very tempting to purchase a synth for almost half off, but I just can't believe the hype any more.

good luck.
dw

1. With certain patches, in the upper register, and under certain circumstances there is some hard cold digital sounds coming out of my 'puter and pentagon.
2. The pitch bend in the upper register are very good, but not flawless.
I could be doing something wrong here, but these are my findings.


Both of these things you're talking about sound like aliasing to me .. which is present in any dsp-based realtime synth to some extent. (usually most noticable only at the highest pitches, where the whole note pitch may sometimes be lost in alais-junk.. also it's evident it pitch bends and sweeps in those ranges particularly) Usually it's a thing of cpu load vs. the accuracy of the antialaising algorithm(s)... can't have it all i guess. You might be talking about something else tho, like the things that happen to a signal when you're using fm/ringmod/PWM, especially in combination, but i doubt it.)

BTW i wish there was a vaz demo (in this discount period) too, i just need to see how inspiring it really will be, cause it's hard for me to stay on task and all businesslike with my arranging, and i should be! the better the synth the more likly you'll work harder and longer on a song i think

[ 01 December 2001: Message edited by: exponent ]

Yes I think it is aliasing.

As far as pitch bend goes, the three synths by sonic syndicate (scorpian, junglist, and plucked string) have no detectibly aliasing while pitch shifting. Now That could be just my ears. The funny things is that native Opro synths are the worst when it comes to that.

VAZ looks really good, but I'm sorry to say they just won't get my money as of yet.

dw

Hi all,

Just a comment about pitchbend and aliasing in P1.
If you are already a P1 customer, disregard this. But if not, take into account that the fully-antialiased PitchBend and PitchEnvelopeGenerator were introduced in one of the latest beta versions of Pentagon I.
So, if you got the early demo version, antialiased pitchbend and eg are not included. It's easy to know: if your version has 300 presets, you got the latest. Some other points to take into account are:

- P1 can be used at any samplerate, but it's hardly optimised to work at 48kHz or higher. I strongly suggest to render final tracks at this samplerate.
- P1 features a HQ/NQ for high/normal interpolation modes. As the filters on P1 can be turned fully off (and the filter cutoff has the whole 16-20000Hz frequency range), high interpolation mode is needed to avoid aliasing.

I uploaded a couple of samples using a raw oscillator and no fx just using the pitchbend in higher ranges, take a look a them

here (bend range = 2) and here (bend range = 12)

Upcoming v1.1 already features a fully antialiased 10-octave Pitch LFO, together with some other niceties.

Cheers,
René

Hey thanks RGC,
I have the real deal, I remember the beta version that really improved on the P1 aliasing sound.

can't wait for 1.1
thanks
dw

Hey thanks rene! you're such a constructive person! I personally hadnt experienced the aforementioned things with p1 demo, despite experiencing them with most synths.

Sounds like you're covering all the bases quite well man! hmmm pitch lfo, a welcome feature keep it comin'
respect

OOPs My bag,
I was wrong about the P1 and the noticible aliasing that I was hearing. It turns out that it was my pitch bend on my keyboard being 'jerky'. It I smoothed out lines in the evnet editor in Opro then P1 sounded smooth. It only sounds 'jerky' when I play live with my pitch bend. So this issue is with my equipment/playing rather then P1.

For some reason this does not happen with the junglist, plucked string, and scorpion though.

Anyway my apologies to RGC, and the rest of you.

later
dw

Hi all again,

Hey, no need to apologize, I love hearing this kind of constructive comments. We developers can improve a lot our instruments with this.

In fact the 'jerkyness' of the pitchbend is mostly due some controllers don't use the full 14-bit resolution that the MIDI spec reserves for PitchBend, they use 7-bit instead.

I'm working now with a couple of alternative controller players that want a 'extra-smooth' operation for pitch bend like the one in the Kurzweil K2xxx series. It's likely to be in v1.1 and it will smooth even 7-bit bend controllers.

Btw, I've heard Martin's VAZ2001 myself and... wow! what a monster ARPish sound!

...good luck deciding

Regards,
René

Asylus !
Your just going to have to toss a coin I
think
Heads it's Vaz
Tails it's Pentagon

Whichever you choose you will probably still
end up wanting the other one still

I can easily see myself getting the VAZ in my future and yes I do have the P1.
dw

I can easily see myself getting the P1 in my future and yes I do have the vaz.
Raven

I've got both, and I prefer Pentagon.

It's hard to say quite why, because Vaz is a really good instrument and certainly more than just an Arp.

Somehow, I feel Pentagon is more "musical".

With so many synths about, and all with ripping sounds available, the ability to create massive leads and basses isn't the issue it was a year ago.

The issue is about finding an instrument you're comfortable with that let's you explore your musical ideas in an original, innovative and highly personal way ... and without saying "no" (hence Reactor is so popular).

If dance was all I did I could well prefer Vaz, but I play in lots of styles, which is where Pentagon wins for me.

One more thing: Rene, from Tierra del Fuego, is a very softly spoken guy, but he's obsessed by Pentagon. Sometimes I think he has no life outside of his quiet ambition to make P1 the best synth in the world (sorry, Rene ).

Upgrades, not fixes, arrive practically every week. I have one tonight, v1.1b01. I love this about Pentagon.

And I love the way he loves it too.

I hear what you're saying about styles, kevvv. Myself, I play electro-ambient-experimental, always exploring new sounds, and new means of achieving them. By the sounds of the forum, I think it'll be Pentagon for versatility reasons. I've played on the previous versions of VAZ (as I said), and I know that what it does it is very good at, but I think Pentagon wins for out of the box versatility. VAZ lovers feel free to jump on me if I'm wrong

Also, having a sequencer within a VSTi seems redundant to me. The mixer would be a must to balance the 16 snyths, but a sequencer? Odd. I also seem to recall someone saying that the VSTi implementation works strangely with FruityLoops (my primary host).

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread... the community here at K-v-R is certainly a great achivement in these dark ages of flame-fests and trolling

Cheers,

Asylus

quote:

---

Originally posted by rgcAudio Software:

Hey, no need to apologize, I love hearing this kind of constructive comments. We developers can improve a lot our instruments with this.

---

Good, then how about doing something about that apalling GUI? I find all of your synths too difficult to work with. Everything is so bland and indistinguishable. I can't even contemplate buying them even though P1 sounds pretty good. I don't even use your freebie.

Cheers!

BONES!

Ahhh
I see if you are not Bashing someone on the Orion Forum that you now come here to do it.
Do you ever have anything Nice to say?
Paul

I don't mind Bones having a go at all. Livens the place up. But I find it hard to understand his GUI problem with P1.

True, it's bland at first glance.

True, a few knobs are multifunctional, but at least they're all on the front page.

True, it'll take a good evening/weekend to come to terms with its many sophisticated options, before the party really starts.

But the manual is thorough, and P1 is completely logical as regards its layout, in relation to the signal flow, which is more than you can say for the Pro-52.

And the latest version has a parameter readout in the little box at the top, which I like, plus other subtle goodies.

Bit like an intelligent woman really. You have to ask a few smart questions to get a reply.

Come and have another bash, Bones. We love you for it

Happy to ;o) Don't get me started about Pro-52! It may have seemed great when it came out but it ain't much synth for very much money these days.

As for P1, why is it so much to ask for simple things like a waveform selector that works in a more sensible way like just about any other softsynth I can think of [JX Synth, JUNGLIST, WASP, etc]. And what is the point of knobs with two functions? Why not just have two freakin' knobs? Make it skinnable and I'll gladly show you how good it's GUI could be [with all due modesty, natch].

The smart lady just passed you by.

She heard some fab P1 sounds calling her

Phew! For a minute there I thought she'd spotted me.

Hi all,

The "only" point for having a knob as waveform selector (and other parameters) is: you can easily select the waveform via MIDI, as any other parameter on the main screen on Pentagon I. As P1 is a "Performance Oriented Synthesizer", the key on it is that everything can be handled and assigned easily via MIDI.

The point for two-function knobs is clearly stated in our site: most users want

1) Big knobs, to make it easy to automate from front panel.
2) All knobs in one panel (no paged displays).

So, keeping above two options would mean doing a panel that only could be seen in 1240x1024, which many users wouldn't like. That's why I decided to keep the less-used functions as a background function.

As the GUI being 'too bland', I think I've already stated our point. As there are several customers that would like a different look, we started the creation of a completely new GUI for Pentagon I. It will take a while, but it will be there.

Regards,
René

Thanks Rene, that is good news. I still don't understand why only a knob can be assigned a MIDI CC #. Surely a range [say 0-40] could be assigned to Waveform 1, etc regardless of the graphics that are used?

Any chance that you could make P1 skinnable? All of Sonic Syndicates stuff is and it means that anyone who doesn't like the default GUI can do something about it. It seems like the most obvious thing to me but very few developers do it.