KVR: Forum Archive - DEVELOPERS: Who will support DXi?

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Author	Topic: DEVELOPERS: Who will support DXi?
Funkybot	Posted: 10th April 2002 21:12
	Hey after seeing RGC releasing TII as a DXi I was wondering if any of the other developers who frequent KVR were thinking about doing the same? I know a few have talked about it, and it's more difficult to code than VST, as well as the adapters working so well some of you question the need to code in DXi, but I think us Sonar users would like to keep everything in our native format whenever possible. Anyway this is to just ask developers who intends to release stuff as DXi's, and who thought about it but decided against it. Just curious.
Rabid	Posted: 10th April 2002 22:11
	I hope so. With so much native support I don't see much reason to use a wrapper. Kontact will provide the only missing link, a good sampler. Robert
spectrum	Posted: 10th April 2002 22:44
	At Spectrasonics, we're thinking about it, but between the wrappers and the smaller market of Sonar...not sure. If a wrapper works perfect, why do you need native? It would be easier for us to make sure that the wrapper works and then just recommend that. Compelling arguments please... spectrum
David Abraham	Posted: 10th April 2002 22:45
	quote: Originally posted by Rabid: I hope so. With so much native support I don't see much reason to use a wrapper. Kontact will provide the only missing link, a good sampler. Robert I'd imagine the Kontakt will clean up the SONAR/DXi sampler market, as Halion is "associated" with Cubase and EXS24 is "associated" with Logic. I'd also like to see Pentagon go DXi 2.0. After that the DXi bases are pretty much covered for me, with the only "gotta have" being the Spectrasonics VSTi's -david abraham
afx23	Posted: 10th April 2002 22:49
	Directx is microsoft.... i d thread carefully... cant see THEM as having the musicians' best interest in mind.... do it , but make sure VST stays supported and alive...just in case...
David Abraham	Posted: 10th April 2002 22:59
	quote: Originally posted by spectrum: Compelling arguments please... spectrum Person A uses DirectiXer/Spectrasonics Person B uses Fxpansion/Spectrasonics Person A sends project to Person B result: Person B will likely have additional work to setup project from Person A. Question for you, if SONAR is so insignificant, why is it enjoying such support from NI? -david abraham
David Abraham	Posted: 10th April 2002 23:04
	quote: Originally posted by afx23: Directx is microsoft.... i d thread carefully... cant see THEM as having the musicians' best interest in mind.... Why not? Jim Allchin (Sr VP at Microsoft reporting to Bill G) uses SONAR. I doubt he'd want to break it Media authoring is a high priority at Microsoft right now, check out the NAB announcements, they've got some stuff cooking with Steinberg now. (Windows Media + Surround) VST is cool and innovative, but I can work very very fast in SONAR. -david abraham
Funkybot	Posted: 10th April 2002 23:52
	quote: At Spectrasonics, we're thinking about it, but between the wrappers and the smaller market of Sonar...not sure. Is the Sonar market that small? Even concidering how new Sonar/DXi is I really don't think the market-share is as small as you'd imagine. Does anyone have access to any sales figures or anything? I'd love to know what share of people are using which sequencer. BTW David, nice to see some another Jersey boy in kvr. [ 11 April 2002, 03:00: Message edited by: Funkybot ]
Tronam	Posted: 11th April 2002 00:14
	quote: Originally posted by afx23: Directx is microsoft.... i d thread carefully... cant see THEM as having the musicians' best interest in mind.... Then why did they incorporate so many "musician" oriented features and functionality into DirectX 8.x? Is it their #1 priority? Obviously not. Not even Apple has it that high on their list. Most people do not use their computers for digital audio. We are a very tiny minority in an ocean of business, internet and production applications. And within that, the majority of the multimedia companies are using their computers for programs like Pagemaker, Quark and Photoshop. -Tronam
progfusion74	Posted: 11th April 2002 00:18
	quote: Originally posted by afx23: Directx is microsoft.... i d thread carefully... cant see THEM as having the musicians' best interest in mind.... do it , but make sure VST stays supported and alive...just in case... That would be better amended to "can't see them as having ANYONE's interest in mind (but their own of course)"
bitshift	Posted: 11th April 2002 00:58
	Heh, DXi is _not_ fun to support. (Actually, COM completely sucks if you come from programming for real computers... sorry, rather if you come from a UNIX/Irix background... but what do I know? I still think we should all be programming in LISP ) Having said that, we plan to make everything available for DX/DXi, and most of the stuff is in place for pHATmatik PRO although it's not at the top of the priority list (MAS comes first). I agree with the people in this thread that point out that SONAR is a very sizable market, not to be neglected. (I used Cakewalk from DOS days up through Pro Audio 9 myself before switching to Cubase for the pretty mixer. ) Best, Art >>0xBA http://www.bitshiftaudio.com
Tronam	Posted: 11th April 2002 01:14
	Who's cruel idea was it to put an 'S' in the word "Lisp"? -Tronam
Caleb	Posted: 11th April 2002 01:29
	This might be one of those weird reversal questions, but why the hell doesn't Sonar integrate VST into their sequencer? I'm sorry - that just had to come out. It was THE reason why I never even contemplated Sonar because I actually liked the Cakewalk products much more than Cubase or Logic other than that fact. Yes, you can buy adapters, but why the hell should I? The support should be there in the product itself. Even Psycle and Buzz manage to provide VST integration in their products why wouldn't a product like Sonar which is supposed to be treated like a very serious tool? Sorry - I'm being overly harsh. I just guess I don't understand the motivation behind not providing something that seems to be so prevalent in higher end and midrange products alike. I think I'm opening myself to a Digital Performer comment, but I'll leave it at that. Caleb
Funkybot	Posted: 11th April 2002 02:14
	Caleb I kind of agree with you, I'd love to see Sonar incorperate VST within the sequencer itself (sorry Angus). From what I've read though, the Cakewalk people felt that VST couldn't provide low enough latency for proper use, and weren't happy with ASIO, hence their push for DX/WDM. You can get insanely low latency with WDM (I can get 1.5 ms if I really needed it and didn't mind the CPU usage), so they kind of have a point. I'm not sure if there's any ASIO drivers that can go that low. Anyway that's their excuse.
spectrum	Posted: 11th April 2002 04:13
	I'm not putting down the Sonar market at all. It looks to be an excellent program that is superior in some important ways to Logic and Cubase. Cakewalk in general sells big numbers, but not to pros, which is our core base. If we commit to it, we will want to really support it for a long time. Of course, it takes development resource away from other projects which is the big issue. It's kind of one of those Mac/PC things too. MOTU has a smaller market worldwide, but a huge percentage of our US customers use it. Since the US market is such a huge part of our business, that makes obvious sense to do MAS. I know there are loads of Sonar users, but it seems hard to find them...at least so far for us. Sonar users are about 1 out of 20 of our current user base. Not saying we won't do it....but we really need to see good results if we decide to go for it. Cakewalk wants us to (and I know David-Abraham does), so maybe if they give us good support like MOTU and DIGI have...it may make it worth it...we are very open to the idea. spectrum
tobybear	Posted: 11th April 2002 04:59
	Back to the original topic, I must admit I have no plans to support DXi in the near future, as you all know I have limited time and lots of work to do, so this is rather improbable. Maybe when I can afford to live from my VST coding and have more time to occupy with these things... Cheers Toby www.tobybear.de
Infectious	Posted: 11th April 2002 06:02
	I just look at the number of VSTi developer that has Europe as a base and can't stop thinking to myself: Is the VSTi vs DXi a Europe vs USA thing as well? If its a stupid question, just ignore me
David Abraham	Posted: 11th April 2002 06:14
	quote: Originally posted by spectrum: I know there are loads of Sonar users, but it seems hard to find them...at least so far for us. Sonar users are about 1 out of 20 of our current user base. Not saying we won't do it....but we really need to see good results if we decide to go for it. Cakewalk wants us to (and I know David-Abraham does), so maybe if they give us good support like MOTU and DIGI have...it may make it worth it...we are very open to the idea. spectrum Part of the challenge is that the SONAR newsgroup is still NNTP/Usenet based. But it is a huge vibrant forum, and there are quite a few serious people on that list (but we do have our share of rediculous flame wars . If 1/20 of your customers are SONAR users that would be quite a growth opportunity IMHO. Especially since SONAR is barely a year old. Describe what you mean by "good support"? The next time you're in the Boston area stop by and have a conversation with Greg Hendershott and crew. I had a chance to do that a year or so ago and I was blown away by the quality of the developers and their commitment to excellence and execution. Very little hype over there at all, just a remarkeable commitment to customers I agree that Cakewalk has a historical stigma of not catering to "pro" users, but I believe that is more a function of platform than product. In general the Pro userbase is a Mac phenomenon. So products like Vegas, Samplitude as well as SONAR that are Windows only don't get the same mindshare as cross platform products such as Cubase and Logic, but I'd submit that there are more Cubase users on Windows than on MAC, and there are very likely many more non-Pro Cubase users than Pro. Windows as a Pro platform however is rapidly becoming viable, the work Nemesys did with Giga has made a Windows PC practically essential for serious MIDI orchestrators. The current CPU performance of an AMD solution over MAC today is tough to deny, and SONAR is one of the sharpest sequencer products I've come across, in terms of complete robust envelope automation, better than ACID time stretching/looping, complete mixing in the arrange window/timeline (console/mixer is purely optional) "unlimited" virtual synths in the rack on and on. I just save so much time with it. The FM7 demo I uploaded is not very complicated, but I did that in 10 minutes on a whim while reading e-mail and switching over to SONAR here and there to mess around. Addtionally Cakewalk's influence is growing exponentially. The DXi standard though "based" on Microsoft's DirectX is an innovation of Cakewalk. Microsoft's MIDI+Audio solution is called "DirectMusic". Also the WDM propogation is directly attributable to Cakewalk. They were the one's who instigated Microsoft to release the private KS interfaces leading widespread WDM driver development (which also encapsulates ASIO and EASI) and most importantly brought wide spread availability of these interfaces to Win2k/WinXP. Recently there's the work they've done with Yamaha on OPT. This is a strong company that's only getting stronger...capitalize early. From the MAC perspective It's easy to paint Microsoft/Intel/AMD as the enemy, but with the right execution I think any SW vendor can hit a homerun on that platform. -david abraham [ 11 April 2002, 13:33: Message edited by: David Abraham Fenton ]
David Abraham	Posted: 11th April 2002 06:29
	quote: Originally posted by The Infectious.com: I just look at the number of VSTi developer that has Europe as a base and can't stop thinking to myself: Is the VSTi vs DXi a Europe vs USA thing as well? If its a stupid question, just ignore me DXi was released a little over year ago. VST is probably 4 or 5 years old? For a one year old interface it's doing ok. Historically though Cakewalk hasn't done that well in Europe, but that began to change with SONAR. I see lot's of SONAR related stuff in Computer Music mag now. VST is fabulous, but from a business perspective it serves Steinberg. Sometimes if you want to continue to chart your own destiny you have to create technology of your own. In this regard DXi and especially DXi 2, is good stuff. -david abraham
David Abraham	Posted: 11th April 2002 06:51
	quote: Originally posted by Funkybot: BTW David, nice to see some another Jersey boy in kvr. Hey thanx Funkybot, NJ is where it's at david abraham
Infectious	Posted: 11th April 2002 07:16
	quote: Originally posted by David Abraham Fenton: VST is probably 4 or 5 years old? So let me rephrase my question: why are there so few VSTi developers in the States? I am just curious.
whyterabbyt	Posted: 11th April 2002 07:16
	Caleb Blake quoth This might be one of those weird reversal questions, but why the hell doesn't Sonar integrate VST into their sequencer? Apparantly because they feel the VST standard is too likely to change under them because its controlled by a competitor. And if you look at the fact that even Emagic had problems getting VSTi hosting completely sussed, then I guess they have a point, sort of. As it is though, I find the FXpansion adaptor excellent (though I wish there were a coupla things that could be tidied up), and in fact I'd rather use adapted plugins since they're much more useful than DX plugins (ie since every parameter can be automated, which isnt the case for DX plugins unless they're DX8 plugins)
David Abraham	Posted: 11th April 2002 07:40
	quote: Originally posted by The Infectious.com: quote: Originally posted by David Abraham Fenton: VST is probably 4 or 5 years old? So let me rephrase my question: why are there so few VSTi developers in the States? I am just curious. yeah that is a good question, on further thought there doesn't seem to be as much plugin development period, going on in the states. -david abraham
Rabid	Posted: 11th April 2002 14:56
	I would love to see numbers on new users and what sequencer platform they are adopting. Cakewalk/Sonar has made huge improvements over the past year and seems to be drawing lots of new business. Someday these new users will be the big name professionals. Robert
jorgen	Posted: 11th April 2002 15:27
	I prefer VST because Steinberg is very open about it. They have excellent mailing list's and also help other host and plug-in developer's, they talk to and help normal people like me. And the SDK is improved all the time. I don't like COM programming and DXi cause it more complicated then it has to be. Lack of examples and you don't get much help if you're just a normal person like me. I prefer ASIO over WDM again because Steinberg is so open about it and have good examples for both host and driver developer's. They also have mailing list's for ASIO developer's and you get alot of help immediately. Almost within the hour;) WDM is still only for a some hand picked companies and if you ask MS about it they say they will release a white paper on it soon. Maybe they will some day. Many say that MS take's audio seriously now but it doesn't help me much if I have to wait for the next OS. I still like Win98SE and Win2k. I'd like to work on DXi/WDM myself, but I'm just too pissed off to do it at the moment. jorgen
Muon Software Ltd	Posted: 11th April 2002 15:39
	Just to go back to the original question, Muon are definately going to release their products in DXi form in the future. First up will probably be the freeware Tau Bassline and then we'll take it from there. Kind regards Dave Waugh Muon Software Ltd www.muon-software.com
David Abraham	Posted: 11th April 2002 16:38
	quote: Originally posted by M: I don't like COM programming and DXi cause it more complicated then it has to be. Lack of examples and you don't get much help if you're just a normal person like me. I prefer ASIO over WDM again because Steinberg is so open about it and have good examples for both host and driver developer's. They also have mailing list's for ASIO developer's and you get alot of help immediately. Almost within the hour;) jorgen Rumour has it that the DXi 2.0 SDK is just what the doctor ordered...stay tuned :-) With regards to WDM. There's no issue. WDM as a driver model embraces ASIO. You're probably refering to Kernel Streaming? don't worry about it just use the ASIO interface that is delivered with many WDM drivers. WDM helped usher a lot of cards to Win2k/WinXP. ASIO is still relevant for hosts that want to use that interface. Cakewalk elected to go with KS for low latency, performs very well, but so does ASIO. -david abraham
David Abraham	Posted: 11th April 2002 16:41
	quote: Originally posted by Rabid: I would love to see numbers on new users and what sequencer platform they are adopting. Cakewalk/Sonar has made huge improvements over the past year and seems to be drawing lots of new business. Someday these new users will be the big name professionals. Robert agreed, here's something from KidneyThieves: quote: Today, almost everything in my studio is software. We're still in the early stages of the music software revolution, and I feel that Cakewalk is at the forefront with SONAR. There's lots of possibilities out there and you really can do amazing things with it. Soft synths are affordable, flexible, and sound like nothing else happening in hardware. It's only going to get better. I push myself to use every new software synth I can and I urge you to do the same. I actively use the Live Synth Pro (SoundFont player), and Native Instruments' DXi synths like the Pro 52, Battery, and B4. I just started trying a demo of RGC Audio's Pyramid and Triangle synths. Great sounds. I haven't touched some of my hardware-based synths for over a year. Use the software, it's amazing. (at http://www.cakewalk.com/TheCompany/ArtistProfiles/KidneyThieves.html) -david abraham
Har	Posted: 11th April 2002 16:54
	quote: Originally posted by David Abraham Fenton: quote: Originally posted by Funkybot: BTW David, nice to see some another Jersey boy in kvr. Hey thanx Funkybot, NJ is where it's at david abraham Yo...Pennsy represent!! --Har (on the other side of da river) [ 11 April 2002, 19:55: Message edited by: Har ]
spectrum	Posted: 11th April 2002 19:43
	David AF....your a great salesman for DXi Seriously, you've made some excellent points and have helped us move closer to supporting it. all the best, spectrum
bitshift	Posted: 11th April 2002 20:15
	David, Is there any information available on DXi 2.0? A fellow from Cakewalk posted on music-dsp a couple of months ago that it was going to be 'a few orders of magnitude simpler than VST 2.0', but I haven't heard anything since. Nothing on directxfiles You seem to have the inside track, so if you have any links or other info, that would be great. Best, Art >>0xBA http://www.bitshiftaudio.com
David Abraham	Posted: 11th April 2002 21:12
	quote: Originally posted by bitshift: David, Is there any information available on DXi 2.0? A fellow from Cakewalk posted on music-dsp a couple of months ago that it was going to be 'a few orders of magnitude simpler than VST 2.0', but I haven't heard anything since. Nothing on directxfiles You seem to have the inside track, so if you have any links or other info, that would be great. Best, Art >>0xBA http://www.bitshiftaudio.com Hi Art, Since SONAR 2 has been released, I can't imagine the DXi2 SDK being that far away from public release. Have you tried pinging agentjost@thedirectxfiles.com ? (a very cool dude btw) I see there are couple of developers on this forum who are already working with DXi2... -david abraham
David Abraham	Posted: 11th April 2002 21:19
	quote: Originally posted by spectrum: David AF....your a great salesman for DXi Seriously, you've made some excellent points and have helped us move closer to supporting it. all the best, spectrum Thanks Spectrum, Actually during college I tried sales at Sears and I totally sucked, I only push/promote what I -really- like I hope SONAR+Spectrasonics Instruments can turn out to be a good business linkage for your company. -david abraham
afx23	Posted: 11th April 2002 21:30
	quote: Originally posted by The Infectious.com: I just look at the number of VSTi developer that has Europe as a base and can't stop thinking to myself: Is the VSTi vs DXi a Europe vs USA thing as well? If its a stupid question, just ignore me for sure guy i didn t meet one musician in the EU who runs cakewalk. actually people laugh at cakewalk. cakewalk is semi-pro software.
Rabid	Posted: 11th April 2002 21:54
	Of course they do. In general Europeans are going to buy European sequencers and Americans are going to buy an American sequencer. Both a matter of pride, and local support. I think that in the US musicians have given Cakewalk and Sonar a chance and they like what they see. Try getting a replacement USB security key for your software when there is non available on your side of the ocean and then waite five days and see if your opinion changes. I'm not saying this to slam either side, only stating the facts of pride and the results of local support. I think Sonare II is long past semi-pro, just as some of the soft synths from the US and South America are starting to compete with NI at a sound quality level. Robert
David Abraham	Posted: 11th April 2002 23:19
	quote: Originally posted by afx23: quote: Originally posted by The Infectious.com: I just look at the number of VSTi developer that has Europe as a base and can't stop thinking to myself: Is the VSTi vs DXi a Europe vs USA thing as well? If its a stupid question, just ignore me for sure guy i didn t meet one musician in the EU who runs cakewalk. actually people laugh at cakewalk. cakewalk is semi-pro software. I know people who laugh at Cubase, I know people who laugh at ProTools or digital anything, every body is laughing at everybody else, what a hilarious world, everything is so funny. -david abraham
axissport	Posted: 11th April 2002 23:48
	I'm currently a Sonar user.I used Logic for years and felt that Cakewalk was semi-pro. But with Sonar 1.3 and now 2.0 I think Cakewalk has a pro product.It's simplier and IMHO more powerful than Logic(multi-outs soft-synths and working rewire 2 support-something Logic still hasn't delivered). I use DirectiXer and I don't know how much direct dxi support matters.Most people who are seriously considering Sonar will research it and realize adapters are available and work well(so far). What is gained from direct dxi support vs using an adapter?I can see it being an expense for a software company to support multiple formats.If there's a performance improvement than it maybe worth it, but is there?
René	Posted: 11th April 2002 23:58
	Hi all, SONAR is an awesome Music Production studio, armed with DXi, and thank to the adapters also with VST. CAL made my old Cake 2 extremely powerful at its time... that much I still use it. Cubase was created by the inventor of VST... which isn't precisely a minor hit in the music story. Perhaps, one of the the biggests hit in last decade. Logic environments are something really difficult to match with any other sequencer... and Emagic's propietary instruments have that outstanding quality level... I know we can't have them all... even in a no-$ compromise situation, that wouldn't be practical. Also, they all do some tasks awfully (ie loops, as any ACID fan like me can prove). But I guess A > B > C or C > A > B or B > C > A is completely user-dependant... we won't make this the 193457290860843 sequencer dispute thread will we? Btw... why is important which sequencer pro's use? do someone think that using the same sequencer of a "pro" will make him/her "pro" too? Oh.. that's why companies advertise their products with some "pro" artist? Ahhhh As usual, my -0.2f Cheers, René
Scot Solida	Posted: 12th April 2002 00:03
	It's frankly ridiculous to suggest that Cakewalk do not make pro products, and even moreso to suggest that no-one outside of the US uses it! Please, these are unfounded suggestions. Is Ray Charles "unpro" because he uses Cakewalk? How about Slipknot? Jon Anderson and Yes used Cakewalk Pro Audio 7. Last time I checked, they all had record deals, and were making loads of cash. Is that pro enough? As for it's use outside of the US, the Reader's Poll issue of Computer Music listed it as SECOND most popular, after CUBASE and above LOGIC. I hardly think it merited this position because no one is using it. I'm glad folks are happy with what they buy and use, and I see no no reason to try to convince anyone that a platform I didn't choose is "unpro". Scot Solida Christus And The Cosmonaughts
Caleb	Posted: 12th April 2002 03:00
	So I guess that means my Muzys in "unpro" too. Oh well - I like it so there. Just had to get in my ner nerny ner ner.
bajongo	Posted: 12th April 2002 04:47
	Well, Sonar 2 is one of the most professional music apps I've seen. A friend of mine is a Sonar user and I fell over when I saw a few important features that I would like to HAVE. I'm still with Cubase as Cubase SX will become a real burner in certain areas. As René stated it's all a compromise. INDEED! One funny thing about "pro": The Fender Stratocaster (a very often used electric guitar, if you wonder) is so "unpro" in many ways (The original whammy sucks, it has humming single coil pickups, etc.) but A LOT of pros did and are still using that strange guitar. Because it has some FEATURES that are really cool. E.g. it's sound. Hehe...
luka2807	Posted: 12th April 2002 07:58
	David, You really made a great job explaining to developers and users that DXi is worth of support, mainly because Steinberg is not willing to share some VST host details that prevents companies like Emagic to develop stable and efficient VST hosts. Btw, Microsoft rules the PC world whatever we think about it and it is very important to have DX and DXi supported by MS. OTOH, as a european, I am very happy for choosing Sonar and not Cubase (I ve never even considered Logic) and I think that Sonar is really great app that have more or less same features as Cubase or Logic but it is programed much much better, and stability and performance of Sonar is IMO better that Cubase or Logic from what I ve heard (I also have cubase 5 demo) Regarding the DXi2 few developers told me that it will be killer platform for development of MIDI/audio processors and instruments with some features that cant be rivaled in VST SDK. I miss only two things in Sonar: decent arpegiator and audio metronome. [ 12 April 2002, 11:00: Message edited by: luka2807 ]
jorgen	Posted: 12th April 2002 08:38
	quote: Regarding the DXi2 few developers told me that it will be killer platform for development of MIDI/audio processors and instruments with some features that cant be rivaled in VST SDK Why wouldn't they say that I've already said that I prefer VST, but personally I'm hoping to use native OS API's for both synth's, effect's and audio in/out. I'm watching the DX/WDM progression all the time. I don't think there will be much difference between the VST and DX SDK's in the future. Watch out for VST3, I think it will be very good. jorgen
David Abraham	Posted: 12th April 2002 08:56
	quote: Originally posted by M: [QUOTE] but personally I'm hoping to use native OS API's for both synth's, effect's and audio in/out jorgen that's good to hear, what synths do you have today? -david abraham
David Abraham	Posted: 12th April 2002 11:10
	quote: Originally posted by WhyteRabbyt: And Sonar does everything else I want 'better' and 'easier' in my opinion. I think most people that matter understand that SONAR 2 (along with the other sequencers) is a very powerful tool. I don't take "bashers" very seriously at all. Pros are pros, toolz are toolz Most importantly softsynths are taking off...and it's getting real good. I'm really glad to see the independent developers supporting DXi -david abraham
whyterabbyt	Posted: 12th April 2002 12:14
	I agree. On the other hand, newbies might take such unfounded nonsense at face value, so I consider it well worth pointing out that such statements are (a) unsupported and (b) incorrect. If somebody prefers another host, I have no issues with that. If someone is talking shite, then I'll point out that's what they're doing, and correct them. Its only fair to those who don't have the experience or information to judge that it is shite.
David Abraham	Posted: 12th April 2002 13:01
	quote: Originally posted by WhyteRabbyt: I agree. On the other hand, newbies might take such unfounded nonsense at face value, so I consider it well worth pointing out that such statements are (a) unsupported and (b) incorrect. If somebody prefers another host, I have no issues with that. If someone is talking shite, then I'll point out that's what they're doing, and correct them. Its only fair to those who don't have the experience or information to judge that it is shite. hmmm excellent point. 100% agreed. -david abraham
jorgen	Posted: 12th April 2002 14:08
	quote: quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Originally posted by M: [QUOTE] but personally I'm hoping to use native OS API's for both synth's, effect's and audio in/out jorgen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- that's good to hear, what synths do you have today? That would be Synthetic II, Cyber, AudioSynth and this nice, smooth and cool "Pattern" synth coming up next. jorgen
whyterabbyt	Posted: 12th April 2002 21:06
	afx23 opined actually people laugh at cakewalk. cakewalk is semi-pro software Go on then; name one feature which the other platforms have which Sonar doesnt which defines it as 'semi-pro'.
whyterabbyt	Posted: 12th April 2002 21:15
	I cant think of a single feature Cubase has that Sonar doesnt that I would want in Sonar, now that 2 is out. And Sonar does everything else I want 'better' and 'easier' in my opinion. The one single feature from Logic that -I- think would be nice in Sonar is the environment facility for processing MIDI. However I own Building Blocks which can do pretty much all that I would need (possibly more?) as a separate program. It would be nice if it ran as an MFX or OPT plugin, but external is fine. And Sonar does everything else I want 'better' and 'easier' in my opinion. If thats 'semi-pro' then fuck it; I'll stick with 'semi-pro'. But its about as semi-pro as Dreamweaver or Photoshop; it does everything required to get the job done.
Alfalfa	Posted: 13th April 2002 02:21
	[ 14 July 2002, 14:39: Message edited by: Chris L. ]

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