Hey,

went to the store today and fiddled with this analogue beast...makes a VSTi user feel kinda low! The depth and bottom, the instant gratification, it just seemed that I hadn´t heard these voluminous sounds or fullness in any virtual instrument anywhere. I guess 16 *real* analougue oscilators will be difficult to replicate in any VSTi but...what do you think? Could something similar be accomplished virtually speaking? Or is it high time to save up for those 3000 bucks.

yes!

well ive never fiddled with the a6.. but i think its the same thing with most other analog gear..

..is that(imo) this what is missing in most, if not nearly all vsti's today: depth and bottom and the overall fullness of the sound... its very lacking in software synths today...

maybe in the future with cpu freq's getting rediculously high, we will see more "hardware"-esque software synths.. at least in the sound department.. that would be my personal wish

Yeah, but even if the developers could make
such a beast you'd probably need a 5Ghz
processor and as much RAM to run it! Besides
there's still the fact that the knobs would
be virtual. And twiddling virtual knobs
compared to the real thing? Porno Vs. Sex?

Cheers.....CL

no problemo

just get the "phatboy-virtual a6 edition" controller

you can purchase them right after the a6 is coded into a softsynth.. right around the year... oh i'd say.. 2048..

but anyways.. i wouldnt be so upset that the knobs were virtual, just as long as the sound was as good.. but i guess thats the choice for the musician to make up.. for me its not the journey, but the destination.

what exactly is the word length on that thing again?? (ie. no doubt)

)

quote:

---

Originally posted by CapnLockheed:
Yeah, but even if the developers could make
such a beast you'd probably need a 5Ghz
processor and as much RAM to run it! Besides
there's still the fact that the knobs would
be virtual. And twiddling virtual knobs
compared to the real thing? Porno Vs. Sex?

Cheers.....CL

---

Aw...c'mon there'll be a really nice control surface available(just get Mackie, the whore, to make it for you)and hope that they won't be slutty enough to jump on some other host, platform, planet, solar system before you can dick your customers over ...(I just had to say that 'cuz I'm drunk )

[ 17 July 2002, 21:18: Message edited by: Ford Prefect ]

There is depth and then there is depth.

I did sampling sessions where I had a Alesis A6,a vintage Moog 3 box modular and a Technosarus modular and a Mini Moog. Everything totally ate even the best VSTi and all 3 analog synths ate the Alesis A6.

For my money, I'd buy a Mini Moog and play the crap outta it.

-rk

pain.

Skippy, hello!!!

Let's see, we've got Squids, and we've got Spectrum, and probably a few other people I've missed, and now we've got yet another celebrity!

Anyone who owns a Korg and anyone who was into discussing Nexxus when it was in its early stages should know that Skippy designed many of the sounds on the Wavestation and other Korgs!

Um, I hope I got that right!!!

Back to the topic...

What you say makes a lot of sense... things being relative. Even within the world of vstis some sound a lot richer than others... but vstis as a whole are still infant babes. It'll be interesting to see what the future holds.

In terms of analog and virtual analog... I've heard of the Jupiter referred to as fat recently, while back in its heyday I often heard it (as well as the Juno) referred to as thin.

I was talking to a techno producer friend the other day who was appalled when I told him that the TB303 was considered kind of a toy when it came out.

I wonder how the Minimoog Voyager will stack up to vintage Moogs and some of the virtual analogs...

I heard great things from people about the A6, and considering the moog voyager is the same price, I i'm curious if the A6 can crap on the moog. And then there is the harmann hype synth nobody has heard except crap shockwave movies.
All $3500 synths !

I'm just happy with the Karma, and I have been using it more than vsti's because to be honest, no vsti's sound like a karma

Well I played an A6 for about an hour a couple of weeks ago [which certainly doesn't make me an expert] and I walked away very disapointed, yet very satisfied that I have synths like Pentagon, Vaz 2010, and others that not only cost less than 10% of the A6, thereby making inspired musical compositions possible, but to my ears and with my tastes sound better! That's right, I said better! Now I am always very quick to admit I am only 25, and have not been programming synths since the 60's, so I am completely unbiased by the "good old days". However, the filters on the A6 were about as dull and lifeless as I've heard [maybe because they were so smooth to my untrained ears], the arpeg features were non-intuitive if not downright worthless, and I couldn't help laughing to myself this thing was $3000. Not as though it didn't sound analouge, it just didn't sound the least bit inspiring. Just thought I'd throw that in there for those reading this thread without having played it, or those lusting after analouge gear without much experience with it. Like a vintage merlot wine, vintage analouge is something I don't feel like developing the taste buds for just so I can lust after it with the rest of the tasters. My VSTi's give me the sounds I need, want and more.

[ 17 July 2002, 22:12: Message edited by: mikehbeck ]

You're right there - some VSTis can make just as many inspiring sounds as some analogue synths. I'm an analogue synth nut - own various old Rolands, Korgs etc, Yamahas - used to have a 303, a Jupiter6, OSCar (which I have to say is still not matched by any VSTi yet -indeed not by any other hardware synth - Moog included, but not including modulars - but the OSCars were in a league of their own).

More and more I use my old analogues less and less - it's just a mindset - I'm getting used to using a mouse to program synths - and many of them you can use aftertouch, mod wheel, joystick etc whilst playing. OK it's still easier and more fun to twiddle real knobs, I admit, but often the end result is equal to or even better than "real" synths. Compared to JunoX2 my Alpha Juno sounds shite. Compared to my previous real 303, I can't tell the difference with Rebirth. Even something like the FreeAlpha sounds more versatile than my Juno106 - which even though popular because it's a "real" synth has VCFs etc - is actually a fairly ordinary synth at an extraordinary price! I don't have a VSTi that can sound anything like my MS20 yet, but I'm confident I will soon - and my MS20 can't do a half of what Crystal can do.

Things like Reaktor, SynC etc can do most of what analogue modulars can do and more.

It really is a mindset - get over not using real knobs and sliders, and listen to the sound, and often there's no difference. So you might have to use some FX to fatten up some VSTis, but I've never had a real synth that didn't need some FX to make it fit into a mix either.

And comparing say Triangle or JunoX2 with a Moog is a little like comparing a Jen1000 or a CS5 with Reaktor. (ever heard a Jen in action - it has a real VCO, real VCF, real knobs, and it sounds like a kids toy. Heard Reaktor in full flow?)

Alot of people slag off VSTis because they don't like the way of working with them (fair enough) but I can tell you that I used to collect old synths, my ambition was to have at least one from all of the main analogue manufacturers, and several from some - I've given that up now and most of my synths apart from the MS20 are packed away, and a Juno is on a stand purely as a controller keyboard - I don't even have a jack in the output hole! I would like to get hold of another OSCar, and maybe a CS40, but otherwise I don't need the other synths because I can do it on my PC. I don't want a Moog again, and I wouldn't buy another 303 even if they halved in price.

Rant over - Nostalgia just ain't all it's cracked up to be - ever tried to play a tune with an MS10 for more than 2 minutes and still be playing the same notes as the rest of the track! Jeez! - them buggers used to wander off by half a note or more.

well said kritikon..

I've played around a bit with an Andromeda, and I have to say it's incredible - but with a *very* steep learning curve.

On the other side, I find that loading up 2 or 3 Pentagons at once, and programming them to compliment each other in MULTI mode CAN give Alesis' baby a run for its money, especially with a nice Reverb, Delay, and Chorus/Phaser used judiciously.

I cannot help but love Pentagon; the sound is just so rich, so versatile... In my dreams, Glenn travels down to see Rene and they combine Crystal's modulation matrix and multipoint envelopes with Pentagon's oscillators, sound, and looks... who needs porno anyway?

Well, nothing sounded bigger or badder than my old Memorymoog - I called it "Dr Voltage".

I did feel some of the love when using Mercury-1, however. It has that slightly unhinged "she's gonna BLOW!" sort of sound.

I am craving impOSCar now! So cool!

PPG

That's it, Spectrum has just made and ruined my week in two fell swoops. First my copy of Stylus turns up and makes my day, then he completely ruins it by pointing me at ImpOscar, TWO DAYS AFTER I'VE HAD MY HARDWARE OSCAR BACK FROM BEING SERVICED!!!!!!

Is that a 2600 or an Odyssey I see there as well?

Oh well still got the CS5 and CS15's to fall back on.

Tim

Wow! I can't wait to find out more about that OSCar VSTi. It looks so damn good! Is there any more info about it (other than on that Japanese website and the small pix at GMedia's site)?

toppa

there are loads of 'guess that synth' mp3 thingys around, esp. with respect to analog vs. digital..

if you're a newbie and you want to immediately suss out the difference, when you try out that analog, what you want to do is fm the oscillators, or the filter with high frequencies.. which will produce 'radio noises.' that will easily get your ears to catch on to where the difference is.. digital ain't going to be capable of that for some time to come....

it makes me a bit sad when i have to record an analog source to hard disk.. but they all have to go, so you just swallow and hit record.. (not to mention the myriad digi control options blah blah aren't digital sounds lovely yes they are)

you may wish to be more considerate of analog options if you play live.. for yourself or others..

If you're experienced enough it's possible to spot the difference between analog and digital. I have my little inexpensive Matrix-6 that creates warm and deep pads even without adding a chorus to the sound, while with most softsynths you need a lot of tweaking and FX until the pad sounds. So there are still some 2nd hand affordable analog units out there that won't cost a fortune...
Btw. one can add as many pentagons he wants, it don't make the oscillators and filter sound any better (compared to analog synts)...
Anyway, most non-musicans don't hear the difference and some musicans won't spot it either, that's why so many ppl. think that analog synths should sound as plastic as a JP8000 and be diappointed when hearing a real analog...
But what do you think how many fat analog type sounds can a mix take until it's overcrowded? A Bass, a Pad, a Lead?
So no need to complain, it never was that easy making music without adding tons of hardware to your living room and spending a fortune...

When it comes to mp3 examples of analog synths you can check the page of a friend of mine with lots of A6, Xpander, Vemona etc. sounds ....

http://www.sequencer.de/

i sould want to say something about recording synth....... all the old synths (organs and electric pianos)that we all know and love, the one that are inspiring all modern virtual analog keyboards and vsti, were not plugged in a P.A. but in "amps"... keyboard amps but often also guitar and bass amps, remember john lord of deep purple with his marshall. In these times no one were thinking to a synt as a hi fi component........ hi fi has started when we tempted to imitate "real" instruments, perhaps with the yamaha cp pianos, dx7 and, of course, samplers.

my advice is that we have to treat analog like synts like electric guitars with amps, stompboxes etc...... i recommend especially amps and mics, let'us give some real air to our digital sounds.

my english is to be improved, sorry!!

We used Andromeda to create some of the sounds and waveforms in our upcoming Atmosphere instrument (as well as over a hundred other synths and devices)

For those that don't think a VSTi can sound rich, you'll be very pleasantly surprised!

BTW, speaking of the OSCar (one of my favs too...) take a look at what Gmedia are working on from this pre-info I saw on a Japanese site:
ImpOSCar

Looks cool!

spectrum

Let's turn this round.

Why can't an analog synth sound as good as Pentagon's Fingered Bass preset?

Try it out.

If you've got a Pentagon, load it up, turn up the volume, and jam on Fingered Bass.

You could even pretend you're auditioning a new synth at your local hardware shop if you like

Actually looking at the ImpOscar it looks like a really good implementation, keeping the original features like the programmable waveforms and adding things like velocity responsiveness and a separate control for the filter drive.

I'm just a bit worried about its stability, lets face it Mtron has been a swine until now and thats basically a simple sample player with envelopes and a bad LPF. I know its not fair to judge these things when they're still in development but I hope they get this one right on release.

Angus are you anything to do with this?

Cheers

Tim

Sorry, the Nord 3 isn't all that. I have one and a Nord Modular and neither was worth anywhere near the money I paid. A hundred bucks for Pentagon or 2K for the Nord, not even a difficult choice in hindsight. If I could get what I paid I'd sell em both in a heartbeat. Reaktor is easily, EASILY as good or better than the Modular and there are a number of soft synths I use more than my hardware (which includes a Jp8080, the above et al.) Obviously it's always opinion, but most people who talk about there hardware just want to make themselves feel better for all the money they spent. I know I do. The Alesis is nice, but again not worth the price...It doesn't matter how fat these synths sound, it's how you fit them in your mix. All the rest is of this my synth sounds fatter than yours is just silly bullshit. It's what you do with what you have, I've heard some people with some wack gear make some amazing stuff and ALOT of people with all kinds of the latest equipment can't make diddlysh%

You're right up to a point. I agree some analogues do the business at low cut-offs (MS10, OSCar, most big Moogs etc) but there are also alot that don't. And you can say the same thing about some VSTis with the high end. There aren't too many analogues that can sparkle at high frequencies - only the OSCar to my ears ever had real character at C6 and above(although I've never had a go on the Obie 4/8 voice - so maybe they could too?) - most Rolands just sound flat, Obies were never any great shakes (but warm in the mids), and the MS series were quirky but not necessarily musical up high. But I could list quite a few digital VSTis that you can still use a filter on at high frequencies and actually hear a difference in the timbre of the sound.

And most people today seem to consider the Juno 106 an analogue - I know in the UK it's still collectable and holds its price well - probably because its one of the few that's poly and there was a sizeable production run. But it has DCOs! Its only half an analogue - nice VCFs in some parts of the spectrum, but crappy oscillators and a totally unmusical self-oscillation that squeals like a baby rat stuck in the plug-hole.

Which to me shows that some of the general moans about VSTis aren't based on the ears, but the fingers - i.e the number of knobs or sliders a synth has. I don't really class 106s as analogues, but people use this synth as a comparison against VSTis! They are both digital (Ok the filters are analogue) but you see my point?

Not to say that the best of the analogues aren't awesome playing machines - if I had the cash I would still prefer a studio with a few modulars and a Jupiter8, OSCar, CS40/60, but I don't, and I really CAN recreate most analogue synth sounds with some work with a mouse.

The oldies-but-goodies will always be up there, but in a few years so will some of the better VSTis. It's only a matter of quality of the programming - some will remain so-so, but so will the so-so analogues.

And now I'm off to peruse this OSCar VSTi thingy - sounds like it may have potential. Mmmmmmmmmhmmmmmmmm....

i agree with realkuhl.. it is a fact that the "closest" emulation of "real" instruments, and sometimes, improvements,with vstis, are of the ones already digital, like PPG and FM7

This is a fun thread.

Because of living in beautiful downtown Burbank, California, I am lucky enough to have access to any kind of analog and digital gear pretty much on-call. In addition to lots of local synth collectors (Hans Zimmer being one of the kings of gear lust), there's a great rental company here that for a small fee will bring any of these wonderful beasts to my door within an hour, 24/7......(cost of living sucks in LA, but at least I can order vintage synths and have them delivered like pizza!)

So I'm fortunate enough to have had a lot of time with these various machines. My experience has been that all vintage synths usually have at least one cool unique sound or character that they make, but many are only good for a couple of sounds. Here's my list of favorites that still beat the VST onslaught in terms of versatility and sheer presence of sound:

• Jupiter 8 and 6
• Minimoog
• Moog Modulars
• Roland System 700 modular (kick butt!)
• Yamaha CS-80
• Oberheim white face series (2 voice-8voice)
• Korg Monopoly
• Korg modular PS 3200
• EMS Synthi AKS
• Serge Modulars
• Arp 2500 and 2600

Of course, there are a lot of others that still have a cool vibe like the Junos, SH and JX series Rolands.

Also, there are so many synths that sound great on their own, but for some odd reason, don't blend well with other instruments. I'm not sure anyone has ever been able to figure out what makes a Minimoog or a real B-3 or Wurlizer sit in a track so well.

Guess that's the mysterious part that keeps it interesting! We'll probably never be able to fully figure out some of these things.

I have noticed that when you record analog synths on a digital recording medium, they sound much less different than virtual analog synths. That's actually a pretty good test of an A/D converter....try recording a Minimoog and A/B it with the original undigitized signal....pretty tough job for a converter to pull off.

spectrum

wow delivery synths..

how much does that usually cost?

Pornstar:

Yep, you're right, I find the NordLead3 to be far to expenisve and I wouldn't buy one, but I had it here for some weeks and it sounds much more like an analog synth and creates a lot more depth than for instance most of the softsynths I tried...
When it come to fitting the sound to the mix as I already stated you can't put more than a few real fat sounds to a mix.
Well, to my ears the JP8080 is also not quite analog sounding...

I'm realy not that fixed to analog synths and don't even like VAs, so most of HW-Synth setup consists of pure digital synths, but I think if a synth is digital sounding it should exceed the possibilities of an anlog one parameter wise by far. Unfortunately most of the softsynths are more or less "bad copies", so there are only a few of them I like like to use...

Kritikon:

You can add that sparkle high frequencies when using fx like multiband comressor, Waveshaper, enhancer/exciter on a synth. That way you can decide wether you want it warm or sparkling digital. Also old digital synths with lots of aliasing like my old MT32 can create sound with that kind of frequencies as long as you don't care for the whistling on higher notes...
I'm not a Juno fan and haven't had the chance to play one but in this case DCO means digital instaed of voltage controlled, but oscillators are still creating there waveforms the anlog way. It might lose a bit warmth when being digital controlled since it has less pitch fluctuations that work like small random modulations, but it also makes the pitch a lot more stable so they don't have to be tuned again when warmed up.
In my case it has absolut nothing to do with the fingers, since my Matrix-6 (this one is also having DCOs and the pads sound even warm without chorus and much tweaking) don't have knobs and most of my other gear don't have them either.

Spectrum,

does your "pizzaguy" also deliver this set (top image).



This thread turned out pretty good, many interesting comments, keep it going! I found one comment particularly striking though:

"I have noticed that when you record analog synths on a digital recording medium, they sound much less different than virtual analog synths. That's actually a pretty good test of an A/D converter....try recording a Minimoog and A/B it with the original undigitized signal....pretty tough job for a converter to pull off."

Working almost exclusively in the native recording medium one may consider this a bit before shelling out thousands of bucks to get that extra piece of sonic analogue splendour. Ah well, hardware rarely crasches and they´re much easier to fondle with anyway! I have now decided that I will buy a unit, the question is which one, I still think Andromeda is very attractive but they could shave at least 1000 USD off...it seems a bit steep, doesn´t it?

I hope Spectrum´s top list of gear inspire the VSTi makers of the world to replicate them! VSTi absolutely is a place to be but clearly it´s not the only place.

Regards
CB

hey casar.. how about finding one used?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=893564300

there are 4 or 5 on ebay.. im sure there are other places to look too..

Generally, rental companies charge between $30-$200 for a rental of something...guess that's pretty steep for people used to OWNING virtual synths for the same prices, but pales in comparison to the considerable cost of owning and maintaining a vintage collection...it really adds up to keep it all working and add MIDI to everything. Almost all the gear you can rent here is in top shape and has MIDI retrofits....pretty nice.

It's cool though, when you get your tunes together with synths you own, and then you rent a few vintage analog beasts to flesh out your mixes. Obviously, it's a killer thing for me, since I do so much sampling of synths for sound design work.

I would imagine though, that the synth rental business is way down now because of cheap VST synths. They probably do most of their business renting Wurlys, Rhodes and Hammonds.

Polyfusion, Steiner-Parker, Serge, Emu, Korg and Buchla modulars are defintely harder to get...and may not be as deliverable because of size and a more delicate nature. But if you know the right folks, somebody close by has a working system for hire. Of course, Hans has almost every one ever made in amazing working order!

spectrum

[ 20 July 2002, 08:07: Message edited by: spectrum ]

$30-$200 for how much time?

this is beginning to sound like.. synthesizer prostitution

one-three days...it varies quite a bit on the gear.

spectrum

I'm sure good analog synths sound very nice, also good digital synths. I use VSTis cause i can't afford anything hardware (yet?), but it's far from certain that I would buy hardware even if I could afford it. VSTis can sound good as well, you might need a few more effects, more tweaking or whatever, but what the hell - as long as the end result is good and I can make music without having my workflow interrupted every 2 seconds that's fine and I don't care how many fx I need to achieve my goal...
I'm not making music to recreate anything that's already been around for years (even though there's always the possibility that such a thing happens ), so why not use something that has a "different" sound...

Of course, if I had hardware to use I would use it, if it's got the sound I want.
Obviously different synths have a different sound, be they hardware or software, analog or digital - great!

If everybody looked the same...

Cheers, Jo

Thanks for the idea VitaminD! Dunno, it feels a bit uncertain to import this size of capital expense from the states should anything go wrong (I´m in Sweden), I couldn´t really fly over and beat anybody on the head that easily! But it seems I could save quite a bit dough though, 2400 USD over there, versus 3900 USD over here. Hmm...will do some more thinking.

For those of you who never heard the A6, here are some links to a few sounds:

CCJ_A6_TB303.mp3
CCJ_A6_LatchedARP.mp3
CCJ_A6_MiniLead.mp3

CCJ_A6_SEMLead.mp3
CCJ_A6_MrSEM.mp3

Various

Creator sounds

[ 21 July 2002, 21:20: Message edited by: Casar Bazaar ]