Hey guys. im needing a very low sustained bass type sound, but dont seem to be able to make any with the software i have. it seems like if i go too low on the keyboard i start getting clicks which i guess must be from the sound of the waveforms. does anyone know any vsti that can make some bad ass basses without having that clicking sound if you go too low? i thought junglist might have been capable of it, but that too just cant go deep enough for me! the closest ive got is from a synth in reactor, but its still not quite deep enough. its just an eerie sound im after, think doomsday.....one long bass type pad (single note)

any ideas would be great thanks

ciao amigos

have u tried the muon tau? its pertty good for basses...and the muon tau pro is very good what i have heard....its good for deep baselines, not letting thru so much highpass noise...and with some equlizer its perfect...

iv also tried the junglist but it seams to have some kind of filter leak...

but for very good baselines u need a flexible hardware synth and some good FX...i suppose


well try the tau and see what u think

If you don't have it, get your hands on the CM101. Then get the teksonic-1 bank for it here:

http://www.computermusic.co.uk/about/cm101/cm101_teksonik-1.fxb

There is a patch in there called Moogish and I think it might be what you are looking for

Hey cool I'm famous.Thanks for the mention Crimson it really made my day!

If u have clicks on the bass u should first try changing the attack setting to a bigger value(the envelopes one -not the compressors)and then set the sustain and release to fit the style u r playing.If the clicks don't go away without killing the bass you are going for, well there's always eq.
U can also get better sustained notes depending on the style/groove you are playing when having longer release settings and low threshold in the compressor.If you want it to be "phat" as well the best thing you can do is use a compressor that has saturation/tape emulation algorithms like the tc X(compressor) or magneto(tape emulation).

Teksonik wrote:

Hey cool I'm famous.Thanks for the mention Crimson it really made my day!

Yep, that bank is great, especially the sound I mentioned. Great work

The first preset patch in Dreamstation is basically a sine wave oscillator. If you increase the release time just a bit and play this patch in lower registers you'll have a bass that will shake your house. It's super smooth (it's a sine wave, after all) but really powerful. I personally don't care for bass sounds with too much grit, like "House Bass" kinds of sounds.

Hi Prophet, it's not a VSTi but when it comes to getting low bass I think my CamelPhat effect is pretty handy. I've recently been finding myself using it on the VB1(!) with the 'Low and warm' preset for a really low but powerful bass. You can use the band-pass filter to trim off clicks and stuff. Try the demo with the previously mentioned preset, or get the freeware CamelPhatFree which helps fatten stuff up, but might not be flexible enough for what you're trying to achieve. You can get both at http://www.camelaudio.com

For anyone who missed it there was some discussion of CamelPhat recently at http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5292&highlight=

I'd be interested to know if it helps get the sound you're after.

Good luck on your search for the right bass sounds,
Ben

Hi guys. Thanks for all your ideas, although im afraid that i wasnt able to get the sound i was after through using any of your suggestions, except from using camelphat (which is a step in the right direction, cheers ben...for anyone who hasnt checked that out yet, they should). Tau pro was the closest i could get from any vsti, tho im sure this sound is easy to get, im probably just doing something wrong, but those clicks just wont go away (and its not my soundcard or anything like that!)

ive uploaded an example of the sound im after which i made. this is pretty much the exact sound. so if i made it then why am i looking to make it again?! well, this was made from a string sample, pitched real low. i think if you listen to it closely enough it doesnt sound good enough, well not clean enough for the project im working on.

http://www.2d-sign.co.uk/cone.mp3

so have a listen and see if you know of anything that can match this or sound even badder, cause thats what im after

thanks guys

i know its not a VST instrument but a hardware one, but its prise quite the same. what i mean is Waldorf Pulse, you can get around 400 USD or maybe less secondhand.

if some gear is good for bass, then that's it!!! )

prophet wrote:

http://www.2d-sign.co.uk/cone.mp3 so have a listen and see if you know of anything that can match this or sound even badder, cause thats what im after thanks guys

what you need is to have some detuned saws with a (4 pole) 24db Lowpass filter on the end. Add a bit of stereo chorus and your sorted. The trick is to detune the oscilators to the point just before it sounds to nasty! If you have Reactor i would set up 4 or 5 saws all at the same root note but detuned from somthing like -25 cents to + 25 cents. So -25,-12,0,13,25 for each osc. Then mix those and send them through a 24db LP filter with the cuttof pretty low. Not to much resonance, mabey 20-30%. Then a slow envelope to sweep the filter cuttoff, again not to much though. And a nice stereo chorus on the end. Top it of with a sprigg of parsley and off you go.

Synth string patches are almost allways done saw waves detuned, because saws are closest to strings and the detune gives the ensemble effect of lots of strings all slightly varied in pitch.

hope this helps.

chris

my advice is to use (cm101 is nice, but any other simple synth is also good) a sine wav or a very filtered saw... then add another oscillator an octave higher, low level, to allow to hear your bass also the people with little radios or computer multimedia speaker........ you can try to distort it a little, perhaps with a very basic distortion plugin, you do not need guitar, valve amp simulation....

tau bass is extremely nice
, but i do not think it is so effective in the very low range (=jungle type subbass)


sorry but the idea of detuning and/or chorusing is "blasphemous"... if you create phase movements with a bass, you will lose all the power... all the basses from 1989 in any genre, from house to trance to jungle are based on simple but powerful bass sounds, mostly sine waves

also the electric bassist use the chorus only in the boring solo in the gigs of jazzrock/fusion boring bands

yasodanandana wrote:

sorry but the idea of detuning and/or chorusing is "blasphemous"... if you create phase movements with a bass, you will lose all the power... all the basses from 1989 in any genre, from house to trance to jungle are based on simple but powerful bass sounds, mostly sine waves also the electric bassist use the chorus only in the boring solo in the gigs of jazzrock/fusion boring bands

Did you even listen to the mp3? Surely you can hear from listening to the mp3 that it is phasing ala strings in unison? He did also mention it was a string sample and that it was a bass pad he was after. None of which seems to fit with your mentioning of 'Powerfull basses' or sine waves. Almost every DnB tune i have has rumble bass made with unison saw waves detuned. The only time sine waves are used on there own is to create sub bass or drop bass. What about techno or hoovers? How come the 303 had a saw and square, no sine. Ect.. I cant understand how you have come to believe that sines are the only thing used for bass? Take a look at any synths preset bass patches and you see sines are very rarely used.

If you dont believe me i can make you a patch on either FM7, Junglist, or Vaz2001 and hopfully you will see that what i sugest will recreate his mp3 very acurately. You make one using a sine wave and some distortion and lets see who gets closest shall we?

two technical points..

With more oscilators you will never get bad phase cancelation. Try it and you will see that even with 3 oscilators it never produces even noticable phase problems.

Secondly chorus only causes problems when the bass is monophonic. If the sound already has lots of phasing due to the unison then the chorus will only soften it a bit. Again please feel free to try it. Also you can position the center frequency of chorus so it hardly affects the bass. the phasing halfs each octace bellow the center frequency. So if you put the chorus at 1000hz then below 100hz it will have very little affect. I think you are getting mixed up with chorus when its abused by prog rockers and chorus when it ads a bit of sparkle and stereo width in the mix, you know you dont always have to have all the knobs set to full I think you be suprised how much chorus is used without it being obvious.

peace

chris

I'm surprised that Junglists "Subsonic Resonator" Patch isn't right for you,

It's both very low AND Moody - One of my fave Long Bass patches ever.

"mostly" sine waves means also many saw or triangle and square waves with not too much highs= not so far from sine waves

tb303 is a partial example:it is powerful because has only one oscillator

some other famous bass machines are roland sh101, juno, moog taurus........ synths without the possibility to have two osc at unison.... maybe a suboscillator one octave lower

also in big analog synts like minimoog or arp 2006 is not possible to obtain exactly the unison... so this will bring phase oscillation that will give a "floating" (i apologize for my bad english......... am i clear??)character to the bass due to the impossible synchronization of the two waves

perhaps in some digital synts, but phase problems are the rule

of course i am speaking of same octave and same level, a bass with a filtered saw for the fundamental, a sine in the suboctave, and a sine, saw or square very low volume on the higher octave or the fifth (+7) can wake up the dead people,( especially if we differentiate the envelope)!!!!!

if we think about electric bassguitar is one string at time and some strange 8strings bass (sometimes john paul jones led zeppelin, or john entwistle who) are plus the higher octave... never the same note

detuned oscillators bass sounds '80 electropop not so much techno/house/jungle/trance/1990-2002

my preaching is at end, i apologize, ..... these are regulations..... if you have achieved good results (=that you like) my judgements are zero

hey I've got an idea, you can use a single saw and put it through a highpass filter with the resonance turned way up and the cuttoff frequency turned really low, that should get you some big bad bass... though I'm not sure that's anything like the sound you want, since I can't listen to your example

..nice old truck!!!! the cutoff frequency has to be in tune with the song

sorry "trick"... not truck (these loose iMac keyboards!!!... i am not at home)

Quote:

"mostly" sine waves means also many saw or triangle and square waves with not too much highs= not so far from sine waves

How am i to understand that when you say "mostly sines" means Saw/Square with the highs filter out. In that sense all sound is exclusivly sine waves so saying "mostly sines" is actualy saying nothing at all. Add to the fact that I did origanly sugest saw waves with a 24db LP with the cutoff fairly low and you see that what you now say you meant is what i said originaly.

Quote:

tb303 is a partial example:it is powerful because has only one oscillator some other famous bass machines are roland sh101, juno, moog taurus........ synths without the possibility to have two osc at unison.... maybe a suboscillator one octave lower also in big analog synts like minimoog or arp 2006 is not possible to obtain exactly the unison... so this will bring phase oscillation that will give a "floating" (i apologize for my bad english......... am i clear??)character to the bass due to the impossible synchronization of the two waves

No you are far from clear. From what you say here you misunderstand unison as being sync! Unison is two or more sounds at the same time but can be diferant pitch and phase. Sync is where the oscilators are phase locked. I did say the the oscilators were in unison with fairly large detune, and i would of though it was obvious that i did not mean sync because there is no point in sync in that situation, you wont hear anything from sync. Eg: An orchestra is in unison but not sync.

Quote:

perhaps in some digital synts, but phase problems are the rule

The only rule i know is that 'there arnt any rules'.

Quote:

of course i am speaking of same octave and same level, a bass with a filtered saw for the fundamental, a sine in the suboctave, and a sine, saw or square very low volume on the higher octave or the fifth (+7) can wake up the dead people,( especially if we differentiate the envelope)!!!!!

Why dont you use a narrow pulse with, as you narrow the pulse with the decay of the harmonics decreases so at 10-15% you have only about ~1db roll off on the harmonics. It also has a more desirable effect that all the harmonics are in sync and as the lowest one dips bellow the speaker response your brain will fill in the missing fundamental that it expects. It will give you improved percieved bass range compared to your method.

Quote:

if we think about electric bassguitar is one string at time and some strange 8strings bass (sometimes john paul jones led zeppelin, or john entwistle who) are plus the higher octave... never the same note

Certainly bass is almost exclusivly monophonic but as i said before the bass on almost evry DnB track i have has dutuned oscilators in *unison* (not sync). Likewise i think you will find this in many synth patchs and other electronica especialy trance.

Quote:

detuned oscillators bass sounds '80 electropop not so much techno/house/jungle/trance/1990-2002

??

Quote:

my preaching is at end, i apologize, ..... these are regulations..... if you have achieved good results (=that you like) my judgements are zero

Its not that your judgements are zero they are valid for you, but i dont think you understood what i said and you didnt explain what you meant at all well.

chris

jibnut wrote:

Quote: tb303 is a partial example:it is powerful because has only one oscillator some other famous bass machines are roland sh101, juno, moog taurus........ synths without the possibility to have two osc at unison.... maybe a suboscillator one octave lower also in big analog synts like minimoog or arp 2006 is not possible to obtain exactly the unison... so this will bring phase oscillation that will give a "floating" (i apologize for my bad english......... am i clear??)character to the bass due to the impossible synchronization of the two waves No you are far from clear. From what you say here you misunderstand unison as being sync! Unison is two or more sounds at the same time but can be diferant pitch and phase. Sync is where the oscilators are phase locked. I did say the the oscilators were in unison with fairly large detune, and i would of though it was obvious that i did not mean sync because there is no point in sync in that situation, you wont hear anything from sync. Eg: An orchestra is in unison but not sync.

I think yasodanandana was right about unison, but, as he stated himself, his explenation wasn't very clear. Unison isn't just two or more sounds at the same time, they must have the same pitch too. So I think your explenation of unison is incorrect.

But as yasodanandana stated, it's impossible to tune two oscillators of analog synths exactly unison, because of the analog controls, which results in a phasing sound. This phasing effect can definitely lead to bass cancellation.

cheers,
vincent

Yep, I'm guessing that phasing everyone is referring to is what is sometimes called "drift"?

I find it to be the most annoying bloody thing in the universe when I'm programming sounds. I want detune but I don't want this phasing problem.

Really shits me on lead sounds as much as any other sounds.

OK - that's my tirade over.

Yeah, I share your pain. Can't somebody just invent linear phase detuning

cheers,
vincent

Caleb wrote:

Yep, I'm guessing that phasing everyone is referring to is what is sometimes called "drift"? I find it to be the most annoying bloody thing in the universe when I'm programming sounds. I want detune but I don't want this phasing problem.

I don't understand... are you talking just on real analog synths (not digital ones)?

Because whenever you detune a sound you're gonna get a throbbing sound, no matter how little or how much you detune... it's simple physics called beat frequency.

Or is there another thing that happens with real analog synths?

Quote:

I want detune but I don't want this phasing problem.

i think it is not possible, because two slightly detuned waves are starting and completing their cycle in different times (one has higher pitch = faster etc.)... so they are not in "phase" and so they have that "phasing" or better "phase shifting effect"

visilia wrote:

I think yasodanandana was right about unison, but, as he stated himself, his explenation wasn't very clear. Unison isn't just two or more sounds at the same time, they must have the same pitch too. So I think your explenation of unison is incorrect.

No, unison *may* mean the same pitch but it does not mean identical, acoustic instuments can be in unison but they will never be indentical pitch. By your interpretation choirs can no longer sing in unison. What you and he are both refering to is sync where the pitch and hence phase are locked and do not drift. Mabey we will never agree on this but i know i am right

Quote:

But as yasodanandana stated, it's impossible to tune two oscillators of analog synths exactly unison,

You know that is not what i meant by unison, nor is it what i sugested be done.

Quote:

because of the analog controls, which results in a phasing sound. This phasing effect can definitely lead to bass cancellation.

I would like to say that I did agree that bass cancelation can occur, but my whole point was that with 3 or more oscilators this becomes unoticable. Eg....

the original sound
www.flak.clara.net/cone.mp3
junglist
www.flak.clara.net/jungbass.mp3
fm7
www.flak.clara.net/FM7bass.mp3
a1 just for fun
www.flak.clara.net/A1Bass.mp3
a1 again
www.flak.clara.net/A1Bass2.mp3
the patches
www.flak.clara.net/patches.zip

these are all done with unison detuned saw waves as i originaly sugested. And as you can see they all sound awfull, no real power, nor do the first two sound anything like the original, o well ive made a fool of myself again.

peace

chris

yasodanandana wrote:

Quote: I want detune but I don't want this phasing problem. i think it is not possible, because two slightly detuned waves are starting and completing their cycle in different times (one has higher pitch = faster etc.)... so they are not in "phase" and so they have that "phasing" or better "phase shifting effect"

You can high pass filter one of the oscilators so only the high frequency phase. Or as i originaly said you can use more oscilators and then there is so much going on that it ends up unoticable. All Hoovers are done like this, check out Alpha Junox or any Juno wanabees and you will find lots of bass with multiple oscilators detuned. You realy have to understand that this is only a problem with duophonic sounds. I read an interview with Wolfram Frank from Waldorf where it was said this was the reason why they put 3 oscilators on the Pulse and the Q.

Im of anyway, i am wasting valuable time that could be spent doing the washing up or mabey a bit of dusting.

peace

chris

sorry friend, you can surely go in the top ten with this sounds but they are the demonstration of what i was (maybe not clearly) saying


a1 and a2 are the 1980' kind of bass..... now they are not so much used.... too much complex.... too difficult to have a constant and loud presence of bass frequences in a mix due to the detuning


the other sounds are pads...... not basses!!!!!

(exactly what i was expexcting to hear)

if you want you can dowload and try my Govinda Bass Bank for Steinberg CS40 (if you use cubase), do not expect miracles, but they are simple but effective dance basses... the cs40 is not too good but it has all we need to make basses....... bass is a simple affair!!!!

but i repeat: if you like them you are right, but you never find sounds like these in a dance record (from 1990) used as basses

sorry friend, you can surely go in the top ten with this sounds but they are the demonstration of what i was (maybe not clearly) saying


a1 and a2 are the 1980' kind of bass..... now they are not so much used.... too much complex.... too difficult to have a constant and loud presence of bass frequences in a mix due to the detuning


the other sounds are pads...... not basses!!!!!

(exactly what i was expexcting to hear)

if you want you can dowload and try my Govinda Bass Bank for Steinberg CS40 (if you use cubase), do not expect miracles, but they are simple but effective dance basses... the cs40 is not too good but it has all we need to make basses....... bass is a simple affair!!!!

but i repeat: if you like them you are right, but you never find sounds like these in a dance record (from 1990) used as basses

Quote:

the other sounds are pads...... not basses!!!!!

That was what he was asking for! A bass PAD!!!! Go back and read his original posts. I ask again did you even list to the mp3 he posted? I realy feel like I cant get through to you.

The other two (A1) are examples of sounds that have detune oscilators and still have plenty of power. If you think they are dated sounds then you go and tell everyone making drum and bass that they are using dated sounds. Mabey drum and bass is dated, i dont listen to much electronica any more anyway.

It seems you are putting your musical preferances ahead of objective opinion. You are saying how to make the bass YOU LIKE not what he was asking for. Not everyone is making cheesy dance music you know! Mabey he wanted an 80s sounding bass pad.

peace

chris

simple bass sounds = cheesy old dance music, three oscillator basses = nice and new


funny..... i am waiting to see you in the next MTV Award

i been writing some dub tunes and like the sound of the fretless bass on slayer going through bass amp and cab on amplitube.tweak that and its sounding fat!!have you tried layering some nice bass sounds together and loading them into soft synth/sampler to play with..done much eq,ing? theres some mastering plugs that take your bass sound and adds lower frequncies from that.

yasodanandana wrote:

simple bass sounds = cheesy old dance music, three oscillator basses = nice and new funny..... i am waiting to see you in the next MTV Award

I dont get what you mean with this?

jibnut wrote:

No, unison *may* mean the same pitch but it does not mean identical, acoustic instuments can be in unison but they will never be indentical pitch. By your interpretation choirs can no longer sing in unison. What you and he are both refering to is sync where the pitch and hence phase are locked and do not drift. Mabey we will never agree on this but i know i am right

Nah... I think we can agree I just thought (and maybe I didn't read your post well) that you meant that the sounds can have *any* pitch and still be unison. But now I understand that you are looking to it from a practical standpoint (acoustic and analog sounds never can have the *exact* same pitch) and I was from a theoretical one (I didn't want to say that the sounds must have the same phase, just the same pitch).

It just seems a topic whereby everyone has its own way of explaining things

cheers,
vincent

english is not my language.... i think that everyone agrees!! but in the average synt language... unison means many oscillators at the same pitch, i remember some "unison" switch in early 80 polysints, to have all the 4, 6, 8, 16 oscillators in a monophonic unison mode, and you obtain this very big and wide sound, but weak and "ever changing" in the bass frequences due to phase shiftings. Any little tb303 or sh 101 with a little single oscillator is tremendously more heavy in a mix than this "unison", even if comes from a moog, a prophet or a big oberheim obx

the trick to have phase shiftings only in the highs (i have heard of this in some replies), putting a hipass filter in one oscillator is somewhat "traditional", i remember stanley clarke with a crossover , a regular bass amp for the low frequencies and a guitar (fender twin) amp for the highs and the effects........ but, in the real life, how much space we want to give to this bass? in this thread i have heard of modern styles like house, trance or jungle/dub/drumandbass where the bassline, usually, stays in a precise frequency range to not disturb other parts.

the "higher" section of a multifrequence big, detuned, phased (etc) bass stays, usually, in a dangerous zone where we usually have for example, guitars and (acid or not) "sequencer" lines.

of course if i hear a good song with a bass sound that is out of my theories, i do not care!! i listen to it, i am not a taliban

azzurro wrote:

Caleb wrote: Yep, I'm guessing that phasing everyone is referring to is what is sometimes called "drift"? I find it to be the most annoying bloody thing in the universe when I'm programming sounds. I want detune but I don't want this phasing problem. I don't understand... are you talking just on real analog synths (not digital ones)? Because whenever you detune a sound you're gonna get a throbbing sound, no matter how little or how much you detune... it's simple physics called beat frequency. Or is there another thing that happens with real analog synths?

It wasn't a terribly serious post.

It was really one of those futile fantasies in defiance of annoying and boring realities like physics.

yasodanandana wrote:

simple bass sounds = cheesy old dance music, three oscillator basses = nice and new funny..... i am waiting to see you in the next MTV Award

I have to say that I think those that win MTV Award are using cheese sounds. I liked that A1 sample, but I don't find the VSTi on this page, any link?

I like to have pulse waves as bass, with a lfo on the pulse wide. Maybe you try the Wasp it can do this very well!

Caleb wrote:

It was really one of those futile fantasies in defiance of annoying and boring realities like physics.

Don't you go disparaging my beloved physics

earthJoker wrote:

I have to say that I think those that win MTV Award are using cheese sounds. I liked that A1 sample, but I don't find the VSTi on this page, any link? I like to have pulse waves as bass, with a lfo on the pulse wide. Maybe you try the Wasp it can do this very well!

It comes with Cubase SX, unfortunatly i dont think it is availible seperatly

chris

Hi Prophet, i just heard your sound and tried it with VirSyn TERA.
Here's the result: www.virsyn.com/Demo/VirSynBassPad.mp3

I hope you'll like it...

Harry

VirSyn Software Synthesizer

it is very good, for me, that this thread is alive..... i think that to share our techniques with others is really important, perhaps more than to have a new plugin to download... as we often did with synts and effects, maybe we have scratched only the surface of our old softsynts. And downloading a new preset or an upgrade it is not sure that will be helpful for our music

jibnut wrote:

earthJoker wrote: I have to say that I think those that win MTV Award are using cheese sounds. I liked that A1 sample, but I don't find the VSTi on this page, any link? It comes with Cubase SX, unfortunatly i dont think it is availible seperatly

It's "locked" to SX (and maybe SL?) and will not work with any other VSTi host.
It's a nice freebie addition to SX, not more, not less.