Hi guys,

I have just started to dip my toes into the vast world of VST Instruments, and have so far just used free/cheap plug-ins. Beast/Juno/Da Organ are all fantastic but, obviously the more expensive VSTi's are getting rave reviews (FM7, Absynth, Pro 53 ..)

Are these expensive Instruments worth the price tag?............if so which ones are recommend?
or,
are they just over-rated and overpriced?

Any (sensible) advice welcome!

hi womble,

they are definitely worth the money...I mean they are still cheap compared to hardware..

It´s hard to give any advice without knowing your musical directions but I personally like B4, Reaktor, M-tron and Crystal (but that´s free..) and the whole emagic range but they are not vsti´s..

greetz&welcome to KvR,
Moritz

Well I don't have any of 'em to say one way or the other, but for starters, this is probably the wrong section for this question(Music Cafe), but this is a question I'd also like to hear replies to. It'll take a lot of convincing to get me to spend almost as much on a plug, if not more than the dang host costs!

Pro VSTs are worth it. I recommend Pentagon I and FM7. Try out the demos. Both are good allrounders. For more exotic sounds, try Absynth (also has a demo).

brgds,
Jens

judging by the demos, i definatly prefer absynth to fm7...i just like its sound (like so many others )

womble, it all depends on what you want to do musically but most of the more expensive soft synths are worth their price.

Another thing with the more expensive synths is that they are in fact better build then a lot of the free stuff. For example, several great sounding free synths are unusable when your host supports higher sample-rates because their oscillator waveforms are not correctly calculated at other sample-rates and they are detuned (a lot).

Of course there are several free ones that are very professionally build and don't suffer from such problems.

Whether any particular commercial VSTi is worth the extra money vs. any particular free VSTi is probably a personal value judgement. There are some good free VSTi's and some bad ones, but you could say the same thing about commercial VSTi's. Check out the reviews here for general info on which ones are well regarded, then compare the free VSTi's to commercial demos to see if the extra price is worth it to you. Crystal is probably the one free VSTi I'd consider in the same class as the top commercial VSTi's.

also the higher up the price ladder you go the easier they tend to be on your cpu...i was extremly shocked when absynth ran all the presets fine on my 466 celeron (albeit one at a time)

I think this thread poses a daft question ... but it's cool to ask, especially since money comes into the equation

AFAIK there hasn't been a single pro synth or sampler or drum machine released in the last 12 months that hasn't been truly outstanding in its way.

And pretty much all of them have solid backup, new version releases, hosts of features, bags of presets, and polished sounds.

Listen, take your pick, and try not to spend all your money at once

to me, yes, absolutely. there's no way I'd want to build Reaktor myself

many simpler commercial VSTIs kick serious butt too (pentagon, all the NI stuff I've used, most of the LinPlug stuff, many others). I do use and enjoy some freebies too, but honestly, they're not on the same level IMO, even if they do some really cool stuff, which they do.

what really matters though is what *you* think! are you unhappy with your current kit? download demos of some commerical synths you think you might like, and see if they're worth their cost to you.

not everything commercial is way pricey either -- pentagon and the LinPlug stuff come up again.

bottom line is that this is a great time to be a musician (as long as you're not trying to make a living at it anyway, but that's another tale...). never before have so many great choices existed for anywhere these prices, and you can do the whole thing in your bedroom.

pretty cool...

The problem is that we are spoilt with having so many excellent VSTis available that are cheap or free (some are not so good, but there are alot that are excellent quality)

The more expensive ones definitely offer more flexibility/sound quality, and when you compare them to hardware, they are excellent value. For example in NZ, something like Reaktor goes for$750- $1000 so they appear to be quite expensive due to our poor exchange rate: but a Supernova or anything equivalent will not go for anything much less than $2000. So that's 1/2 price for maybe better sound and definitely more options.

I can't collect old analogue synths here, because there is no market for them. And when I think back to when I was in the UK, even then, 2nd hand could cost alot - and that's even if you can actually find the synth that you hanker after. I'm lucky in that I collected a few when I was single, had no mortgage etc, so I can fall back on a good setup now. But were I to start into hardware nowadays, especially in NZ, I probably couldn't afford to do it, and probably couldn't find what I want; whereas I have access to all the software that is available anywhere in the world, and I can afford it.

It's easy to forget that music - especially electronic is an expensive hobby, whereas VSTis actually make it attainable to most people. How does FM7 or Reaktor compare to what you'd have to pay to buy say a Jupiter8 or a an OSCar? (if you can find one for sale) Put's it into perspective, no?

I too just started using vst's after many years of using hardware synths and sequencers. I've found most of them to be surprisingly good. I haven't even touched my OB-8 in quite awhile [ although I haven't gotten rid of it either.] Try some of the free demos to get an idea of what synths favor your style. You won't be dissapointed.

VSTi's don't have to be expensive to be good. I suggest a good basic modle to cover the bases for starters. Something like the Pentagon I. Then you start looking for programs that can give you special sounds. Build around your base synth. If you are into it modulars can be a lot of fun and well worth the money. Some of my favorite stuff comes from Native Instruments. I have been considering FM7 but now that the Yamaha DX200 (hardware FM with filter) is cheaper than FM7 (software FM with filter) I may hold off.

Robert

Rabid, wow the DX200 cheaper than FM7? Has the day come when hardware is finally becoming less expensive than software (realize I'm half joking of course)? Damn now if they just provided us with a nice software editing programs with each synth, as well as templates for such that integrate into our sequencers, I might actually start buying hardware.

Ok I'm done joking, I think there's a good lot of "non-commercial" or at least stuff coming out of "indie developers" that can totally compete with the big boys. As far as a VA goes I can't seriously see myself buying anything other than Pentagon (unless someone makes that accurate minimoog) and using the wealth of freebies I have when I need something a little different. Although DaOrgan doesn't have the features of the B4 or the extra organ tonewheels, I'd still stack it up against the stock B4 tonewheel set, and I question whether the differences would justify the price differences for me. There is a general higher level of quality in something released from NI as opposed to mpst indie developers, but in my experience it's generally not the sound. It seems to me like a lot of the time you are paying for multiple platform support (VSTi, DXi, MAS, RTAS, and even Standalone at times), a paper manual, a nice .PDF manual, and a box. The stuff is nice to have, and probably worth paying a bit extra for, but I also don't think you'd be missing to much by just using something cheaper. We hear it a lot here but, what you do with the sounds is the most important thing.

I think the answer is yes and no. A lot of the pricier VSTi's are really good, e.g. Reaktor, Absynth, Sonic Synth etc and well worth the money. Of course you also have intermediately priced stuff like Pentagon, Phat Pro etc which are mind blowingly good. It also depends on your needs and preferences. In the end there is some great freeware, such as the RGC stuff and crystal, but by and large the pricier ones are usually worth their cost. I found that to make the music I wanted to make, I could not live on freeware, but rather a mix of pricier and budget softsynths (budget = $20-100)

I also agree and disagree with Funky on the B4. I have daOrgan, but if I had the money, I'd get the B4 in a heartbeat, cause it has that purity of sound which just makes me want to play. That said, for most of my needs at the moment, daOrgan is more than adequate, and can be used to create some great music.


prog

you know, for all the virtues of hardware synths, I thought they were a pain in the butt. recalling the patches and configs on a studio full of synths just to play a song, needing all those inputs at once, tuning and calibrating anything analog... the whole thing was so much more unwieldy than recalling an entire song in one piece, softsynths included.

Quote:

We hear it a lot here but, what you do with the sounds is the most important thing.

what he said

Funkybot wrote:

Damn now if they just provided us with a nice software editing programs with each synth, as well as templates for such that integrate into our sequencers, I might actually start buying hardware.

Not really funny. There are editors and librarians available for a lot of hardware synths, either manufacturer-supported or just made by users. I had an editor/librarian for my aging KORG O1/W and my CS1x/2x could be connected via serial port [I think] to a PC for editing.

As to the original question, I will join the minority [at the extreme end, of course] and say that I think the majority of "pro" VSTi are overpriced. My most expensive softsynth is JUNGLIST [US$69] and my softsynth collection is easily able to stand up against our TRINITY [with Z-1 board] and PROPHECY. I've tried the demo's of Pro 52, PPG Wave and FM 7 and they all failed to impress me in the slightest when compared to low-cost synths and ORION Generators.

i agree bones (wow we agreed)

however.. i'd also like to say i think that a majority of hardware synths seem WELL overpriced too...

then again.. cars, fuel, houses, trendy/"upscale" restaurants.. etc are all overpriced too..

but they get away with it since ppl are still willing to pay for it... oh well.

Good answers one and all - I have always used hardware synths up until now, and I do a trinity which is fantastic for live use - but, I do find soft synths easier to control in the studio environment. I am also amazed at the sound quality of software such as the Juno X2 and the Pentagon (the most expensive so far!!!!) and am more than happy to stick with them!

I guess the problem is that we can all spend so much time collecting these plug-ins that we forget to actually damn well use them!!

By the way - sorry if this is a silly question/in the wrong place.......first post and all........go easy on me guys !!!!!

BONES wrote:

Funkybot wrote: Damn now if they just provided us with a nice software editing programs with each synth, as well as templates for such that integrate into our sequencers, I might actually start buying hardware. Not really funny. There are editors and librarians available for a lot of hardware synths, either manufacturer-supported or just made by users. I had an editor/librarian for my aging KORG O1/W and my CS1x/2x could be connected via serial port [I think] to a PC for editing. As to the original question, I will join the minority [at the extreme end, of course] and say that I think the majority of "pro" VSTi are overpriced. My most expensive softsynth is JUNGLIST [US$69] and my softsynth collection is easily able to stand up against our TRINITY [with Z-1 board] and PROPHECY. I've tried the demo's of Pro 52, PPG Wave and FM 7 and they all failed to impress me in the slightest when compared to low-cost synths and ORION Generators.

Why didn't you like the FM7?

they are worth the prize

but skillz on how to program a good song is worth more
you can make a good song using an old casio keyboard

or freeware vsti, i have bought just a few vsti
listen to donkeys tunes ... he uses tons of freeware and his sound is megakewl

I agree poweruser -

its the old tale of

A good musician can make a bad instrument sound great
but rarely can a good instrument make a bad musician sound decent.

So talent is essential - but there again........how do you explain all the successful English Boy bands !!! Ah.......sorry, I forget - the majority of UK singles buying public are muppets!!!!!

Anyway - I have looked at Junglist and may get that - to be honest, my trinity is used more for live work and master keyboard work than any recording these days. Its also good for jotting out basic ideas.......but I tend to sequence stuff by hand.

Now..........I need to do, is learn how to program the buggers and get my own sounds rather than cheesily relying on presets!!!!!

Funkybot wrote:

Damn now if they just provided us with a nice software editing programs with each synth, as well as templates for such that integrate into our sequencers, I might actually start buying hardware.

Have you seen Midi Quest? http://www.kvr-vst.com/inst.php?inst=263

My advice is to judge your kit on how useful it is to you, not who made it or where it came from.

For example, having a bias towards modular software, I upgraded my copy of Sonar to the 2XL version specifically to get the DR008 'drum modular', and then paid for the 1.1 upgrade for that. And for acoustic kits in particular I'll never use anything else. But I also keep SR202 installed, because its filter/amp/effect chain are absolute simplicity, but surprisingly powerful, especially when it comes to making a nice aggressive sound ten times harder still. I also keep all of xoxos' SynthEdit drumsynth creations because they're so totally specialised, but allow you to tweak every single aspect of the drum sound.

Similiarly I keep things like mda ePiano and ZR1 around, despite having great sampled, synthesised and modelled electric Pianos and organs in each of Sync, Tassman and SonicSynth, precisely because they have a characater and immediacy of their own.

Similarly almost all of my effects are freeware except for those that came with the host, except for maybe two or three shareware buys.

womble42 wrote:

A good musician can make a bad instrument sound great...

... and a good musician can make a great instrument sound even better !!

I like to dabble in all forms of dance music - (ambient/techno/trance and so on) so having all my bases covered is a must - at the moment i have Juno/Beast for growling/hoover sounds - Tau Pro for the basses, Triangle and Pentagon for the other work-a-day synth sounds and Space Synth/Angelina for pads ...............and lets not forget DA organ for those housey organ moments.

The only thing I really lack is a drum synth, but I have fruity loops and that does sequence drums well.......should I look at dedicated drum synth to give me better sound quality?

[/quote]

not really an instrument, but definitely a massive exception in the relationship between the price of a plugin and its "quality": the plugins from Sascha at www.digitalfishphones.com.

Endorphin and Dominion sound so amazing and are amazingly so very free. Of course there's MDA's stuff which, for their time... and for the most part for this time, still sound inventive and cool.

These discoveries (hey... I am pretty late in the game, relatively speaking, in discovering a lot of the brilliant free stuff) come at a time when my library of software instruments is beginning to grow steadily (DR-008, FM7, et al).

I guess it pays to pay attention to the kvr crowd... could save you some cash .

Leave it to Bones to proclaim the mediocrity of crappy synths like Absynth and FM7... What a rebel...

NEA wrote:

Why didn't you like the FM7?

For the money they are asking I didn't think that there was a single preset that I couldn't do just as well with JUNGLIST or one of my other cheapo synths. The presets certainly didn't inspire me to spend any time digging deeper into it.

I think sound is too personal a decision. The FM7 doesn't do too much for me sonically, but then neither is junglist my cup of tea. Absynth though is another story. Yummy!!! Worth every penny, although if it went for $100, I would not be complaining.

BONES wrote:

For the money they are asking I didn't think that there was a single preset that I couldn't do just as well with JUNGLIST or one of my other cheapo synths. The presets certainly didn't inspire me to spend any time digging deeper into it.

While I admire your less-is-more approach to soft synths, I seriously doubt you could create a patch in Junglist that could sound like FM7 patches "Sparkle" or "Industrial Bells". Junglist may be many things, but a 6 operator, breakpoint envelope controlled FM synthesizer it is not. Perhaps the FM7 sound simply doesn't appeal to your preferred style of music and I can definitely understand that. But, as far as I'm concerned, for FM synthesis it has no peers.

-Tronam

Tronam some of us just don't like FM sounds, but I suppose FM7 is probably THE softsynth to buy, and worth the money if you do. I'm not a fan of FM synthesis at all, and I too could care less about FM7, but again, I don't doubt it's worth the money to the poeple who do.

In that regard, it simply just comes down to taste. I don't particularly love FM synthesis either, but for certain kinds of sounds it is ideal. I don't think very many people purchase FM7 to own a "bread and butter" software synthesizer anyways. It just does what it set out to do brilliantly and I definitely respect NI for that accomplishment.

-Tronam

I am by no means a synth "boffin", but I guess the problem with the FM vs Analog argument is that....most of the synths on the market do not use FM synthesis and our ears have got tuned to that style of sound. FM does have a lot of fans....for bass sounds especially, personally - I just go for what I like the sound of!

I think I will download that FM7 demo again and give it a thorough go, then compare it against my own cheap synths. Lets face it though, if it works for you .....don't knock it!

FM7 is not only an FM synth. It combines analogue style synthesis with FM synthesis and by that it's capable of some stunning results. It is no longer "just" an FM synth like the Yamaha DX-series was.

The result is that the FM7 is capable of analogue sounding pads, leads and whatever. For me it already has become THE bread-and-butter synth in my setup as it is capable of almost any kind of sound like metallic FM sounds, PPG-like glassy stuff, complex evolving pads and rythmic structures like Absynth and Crystal, analogue sounds like most VA's.

If someone want to buy just one professional VSTi, I always recommend FM7

Hmmm ... all this attention on FM7?

Have any of you tried Tassman, or Vir Syn Tera?

We're talking class acts here with their own unique sounds, albeit big to learn and pricey to buy.

And in the pipeline ... like a people few here, I'm expecting my Pro-53 upgrade any day now. Perhaps another eye-opener? Or at least a crowd pleaser.

And I wouldn't want to omit mentioning QuadraSid either, which might be big to learn (which is why I haven't got one), but it has special sounds, and is fairly well priced.

Quote:

For the money they are asking I didn't think that there was a single preset that I couldn't do just as well with JUNGLIST or one of my other cheapo synths.

simple is good. cheap is good. different synths suit different musicans. the music is more important than the instrument. yadda.

but bones, you have to be joking about junglist doing everything that FM7 can do. not even close.

kevvvvv wrote:

And in the pipeline ... like a people few here, I'm expecting my Pro-53 upgrade any day now. Perhaps another eye-opener? Or at least a crowd pleaser.

Oh yeah..... love my Pro52 too, eagerly awaiting the upgrade

mmmmmmmmm, so there is a strong theme of FM7 and Pro 52/53 being the bee's knee's. I will check out both of these again (demo's) - as long as they fit my criteria of
a) Not sucking all the ram of my p.c.
b) Are clearly laid out
and most importantly
c) Have fantastic presets!!!!
I may just go for one them later.

I mentioned in an earlier post about drum synths, what do people make of Waldorf Attack? I may just break the bank for this as well as it's had many good reviews.

womble42 wrote:

mmmmmmmmm, so there is a strong theme of FM7 and Pro 52/53 being the bee's knee's.

Actually, for me, those two and the PPG Wave To hear what the PPG Wave is capable of just listen to some eighties albums of Tangerine Dream and also Frankie goes to Hollywood. The VSTi is a very faithfull recreation of the real thing.

Your also talking presets; I have several thousands of DX7 presets that can be loaded into FM7 and act as a great starting point to build new patches on and just recently I got a whole bunch of preset banks for a real PPG that are converted to VSTi format and can be loaded into the VSTi version. I've just checked out a few of them and there are some pretty impressive sounds there too.

The FM7, PPG Wave and Pro52 are the cornerstones of my studio. I use a lot of other great synths too (Delta III, Rainbow, Electron, CronoX, etc.) but I almost always seem to rely on at least one of the mentioned three in any one of my compositions.

Hi to all, and to all...All I know is that since I've gotten FM7,Absynth,LM4, WALDORF ATTACK and one of my favorites...Edirol's SUPER QUARTET (AWESOME GRAND PIANOS, GIUTAR,BASS,DRUMS)... I have not touched any of my "REAL" hardware synths in a long time. Its just that ....wait, let me take a big breath here...the ease of use, superb sound quality, automation, upgrade-ability, instant recall of sounds,....oh yea...and they ALL take up so very little space in my studio.... Should I go on and on and on......Naaa!!! you guys get the point.....don't ya?

Tronam wrote:

Perhaps the FM7 sound simply doesn't appeal to your preferred style of music and I can definitely understand that. But, as far as I'm concerned, for FM synthesis it has no peers.

I don't care what the synthesis method is, all I care about is the sound that comes out and how easily I can mould it to my needs. I am sure that there are plenty of sounds that FM 7 can make that my VSTi can't, that's why I have a SAMPLER - its a much more cost-effective way of getting ANY sound I need without any fuss [especially as I didn't have to pay for it at all]. I know that FM7 is much easier to play with than a DX7 but, at the end of the day, FM synthesis is totally unintuitive and I can well live without it.

Quote:

so there is a strong theme of FM7 and Pro 52/53 being the bee's knee's.

I don't hear ANYTHING in Pro52 that makes it better than a lot of freebies, unless you have a big collection of Prophet presets that you want to load into it. It is, to my ears, a very average synth that is a total rip-off by current standards.

(I havent read the whole thread but...)

What would you define as being a "PRO" synth? Any commercial one?

on pro plugins

there isn`t anything in this thread we can say what x_bruce haven`t said
in his good reviews. just read his reviews and find out all about the pro plug-ins. lot's of them are def. worth the money
just don't live by the "if I have that plug-in I can make good music" wishful thinking rule like i said before

a few that live up to the dream to me :

B4
ABSYNTH
B52
ATTACK
PPG WAVE

Unfortunately I don't have them. I do have all the freebees out there and I can still make a reasonable song or two
ok ok ... they are not all that but they are not pure shit either
to anyone out there ... please don't disagree

btw .... ZR3 is a reasonable freebee organ to replace the B4 for me .... it's donation ware ... or so to call care-ware
I support such initiatives ... my July contest submission featured the Z3

Remco

I guess I should have said "High Price"...meaning Pro 52, FM7 etc... rather than "Pro". I guess really my question was really two topics -
Is the price of FM7 justified as being twice/three times that of the scorpion/Juno/Beast/Junglist - and are they worth the money when compared against Hardware synths?

Well - if you compare the price of say....Pro 52 against either the original (which i would guess is worth in the £1000's now) or against hardware synths on the market, there aint no competition! Most hardware synths are £400+, you have to rig them by midi cables, and you are battling with controlling external hardware. If £150.00 gives you a perfect emulation of a synth that can sit neatly inside your pc, can be update preset wise by the internet, and can be controlled sound wise..........well theres no debate.

Now, as to whether the big priced soft synths are worth the money against the smaller commercial ones?!! Thats trickier - I downloaded the FM7 demo and it was very good, couldnt argue - I also downloaded the scorpion demo and thought that was fantastic.........

So I think honestly - if you like the sounds, whether they be analog/Fm or the price - be it £40/£199 - as long as your budget can stretch then yes they are worth it!

Phewwwww.......................having a lie down now

Again,

I still maintain that it is a personal choice. I am not a big fan of the scorpion (strangely enough I spent half my evening tinkering with that very demo, trying to like it to the point that I just had to buy it ), but then FM7 is also not my cup of tea since I am not a big FM fan, but it is one wonderfully designed/programmed synth. On the other hand, I think Absynth is well worth the cost as is the B4. At the same time, my favorite budget synth (pentagon), makes me wonder why I ever want to spend money on any other VA (hard or soft). With the plethora of relatively cheap and not so cheap synths around now, I think the user is in a good position to get some of the wonderfully priced synths, vs. some of the more expensive ones, most of which totally justify their costs if you take into accout versatility (a la Virsyn Tera), sheer uniqueness of sound (Absynth), amazing reproductions and sometimes then some (FM7 and B4). Like in any other area there are some clunkers as well.


Am I making any sense here?


prog

Yes you are making sense - I think I just have to get over the mental barrier of paying £199 + for software!!!!!! I am always reluctant to do pay that money for software.........which is why I am please that ACID music Pro is always a £70/80 quid upgrade (god bless em!)
Which is strange really - as I just splashed out £1000 on my Triton......perhaps its that comforting feeling of something tangible that you can pick up .......compared to something downloaded !!!!!!!

The Pentagon is very good, although I do find that it's sound's can swamp my mix......is there anyway of combating this? Using the amps or filters maybe?

FWIW, I think that NI's synths are about 50% too expensive. They are just at the level that makes most people cringe instead of saying, "I can afford that."
They would probably get the same money anyway, with purchase of two of their synths instead of one. Plus, people would be less troubled by upgrade fees more often if they hadn't put down a fairly sizeable amount of money in the first place.
Try to convince your wife that a piece of software is worth $299 list (FM7), and you are lucky because you found it for $219? Most such conversations end after $150. (Didn't you just spend $400 on music software [a host] and upgrade for it? + computer + speakers +++++).
At a store, if you could find $150 for FM7, and $100 for Pro53, $200 for Kontakt, NI is starting to make some money they weren't getting.
BTW, whatever happened to that short-lived rumor of NI making a host/synth combo called Komplex? Was it nothing more than that?
Well, that's enough of that. While the software may be substantially cheaper than the hardware version, software has a perception problem when it comes to high prices. But, that can be easily overcome when a company has such a large bank of software products as does NI. Any price-cutting they did would be easily offset by the purchase of two or more synths (with almost zero extra cost to them BTW), where only one can be purchased today. IMHO.

Well I just make do with the demos for now, since my money was spent on Sonic Synth, a new Alesis, and the components for a new computer (please some relatively cheaper vsti's like PhatPro), but I already have the Pentagon demo in some of my songs (to be replaced when I purchase the license). I am sure there are others who will give you better suggestions, but I tend to program my own sounds and just eq and level-adjusting work for me.


The tough ones are going to be Absynth, and/or when it is released, Atmosphere. I think cost will end up in an Absynth purchase somewhere along the line. Till then I will make do with crystal and sonic synth for those atmospheric pads.

prog

Chris L. wrote:

FWIW, I think that NI's synths are about 50% too expensive. They are just at the level that makes most people cringe instead of saying, "I can afford that." They would probably get the same money anyway, with purchase of two of their synths instead of one. Plus, people would be less troubled by upgrade fees more often if they hadn't put down a fairly sizeable amount of money in the first place. Try to convince your wife that a piece of software is worth $299 list (FM7), and you are lucky because you found it for $219? Most such conversations end after $150. (Didn't you just spend $400 on music software [a host] and upgrade for it? + computer + speakers +++++). At a store, if you could find $150 for FM7, and $100 for Pro53, $200 for Kontakt, NI is starting to make some money they weren't getting.

Can't disagree with you there. Pretty much why I don't have at least one of their synths

progfusion74: You don't need to be a fan of FM synthesizers to like the FM7 since it's even very good sounding and versatile in doing subtractive sounds as well and you wouldn't even spot that those sounds are coming from an FM-Synth. Other than that the new FM sounds don't have to have anything in common with the typical cold and metalic FM from the 80s. Frequenz Modulation can simply be a way to create a waveform and morph it to several other waveforms...

Bones: Of course you can use a sampler, but even if it's a very good one with lots of synthesis features, "good FM sounds" can't be simply sampled, they're not static, they can change rapidly as you touch the mod-wheel, what can add a whole new dimension to the sound.
FM isn't unintuitive, you just need more time to gain the experience what the parameters do than with a subtractive synth since it's more powerfull and most current "pro-subtractive synths" like Q, Virus, Andromeda or NL3 do have FM abilities as well.

Chris L. quoth FWIW, I think that NI's synths are about 50% too expensive. They are just at the level that makes most people cringe instead of saying, "I can afford that."

Digital Village website prices:

Sampler:
-----------
Emagic EXS24 £279.99
Steinberg Halion £185.99
NI Kontact £225.99

Retro Analogue Synth Emulation
-------------------------------------
Steinberg Model-E £99.99
NI Pro 52 £105.99
(Emagic dont have one but the ES2 is £199.99)
Waldorf PPG Wave £119.99

'Classic Keyboard' Emulation
--------------------------------
Emagic EVP88 £149.99
Steinberg The Grand £159.99
NI B4 £109.99

So, in fact, NI's synths are priced pretty competitively with their peers, and are rarely the most expensive, let alone "50% higher". So why this bizarre perception that NI prices are so much higher than everyone elses, or that they're more expensive than their worth? Yes, their list prices are higher than the figures above, but that happens in every industry, and its the price you pay that matters.

What about Reaktor? Isnt that really expensive, then? Nope. In fact Digital Village are advertising it in SOS this month at £249.99 including the 4Control controller. The retail prices just dont bear out this assertion that NI stuff costs more than similar boxed products.

Note that I say boxed. Yes, downloadable stuff like Pentagon, Delta III et.c. are cheaper than Pro52, but these are products marketed and sold in a completely different way, and you cannot make a fair comparison of prices. If you were to box Pentagon, print a manual, press it to CD, market in the written press and organise distribution through music stores, then I'm pretty bloody positive that Rene would have to raise his prices to above that of Pro52 to keep the same level of profitability. Oh, yeah, and he'd have to have a Mac port available as well.

I still cant get it through my head why people think software 'has' to be cheap. Its not. Its incredibly difficult and time consuming to write and test, and realtime stuff is the hardest of that. It might be cheap to reproduce, but development costs can be immense. And despite the fact that there are a dozen or two 'star' programmers out there producing mindblowing cheap shareware stuff, that does not make the development work by other teams cheaper or easier.

Interesting comments about people not finding the scorpion that great - One thing I would say is - I was using the Scorpion demo, inside Fruity Loops, using their excellent Fruity delay...........

so this begs the question.....

Can good external (ie not part of the synth itself) make an average synth good? Or is a bad soft synth just a bad synth!

Maybe I ought make a new thread on this.

bones, don't take anything I'm about to say as argumentative ... I think it's interesting how different people approach doing music and setting up their kit, and to each his/her own, of course. celebrate diversity!

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I don't care what the synthesis method is, all I care about is the sound that comes out and how easily I can mould it to my needs.

it's true that FM isn't the most intuitive way to create a particular sound you have in your head. it's not easy to predict what will come out for any given settings, at least for me. but FM does make a lot of sounds that are different from each other and make organic sense to me. I don't mind plotzing around a bit until I find something interesting texturally, then do the more obvious envelope setup etc from there. also, the Easy page of FM7 really does open up a lot of possibilties relatively painlessly, and still lets you dive into the full parameters if you want.

another of my fav synths is the PPG Wave, which if anything is even harder to predict. I just like the sounds of both these instruments though; they're not the same-old-same-old lowpassed saw/pulse whatever that always sounds a lot the same to me.

there are of course some free and inexpensive FM VSTIs too, but the ones I've tried have been way less developed than FM7. (btw, FM7 was on my short list for a while, but didn't get bought until I was lucky enough to pick up a store display copy for $99.

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I am sure that there are plenty of sounds that FM 7 can make that my VSTi can't, that's why I have a SAMPLER - its a much more cost-effective way of getting ANY sound I need without any fuss

well why use anything but samplers then?

for me, it's partly because samplers aren't that good at responding organically and interestingly to changes in your playing. filter and amplitude envelope changes they can do, and cross-fades between different samples, but in general they can't change the "inner texture" of the sound organically when you play harder or move a controller.

the other thing about samplers is that they're inherently unsurprising, for lack of a better word. nothing comes out that didn't go in. the available pallette consists of the works of those who've gone before and actually created the sounds the sampler is going to play back. that's emotionally and philosphically less satisfying and interesting to me.


so, do I have a point? well probably not really, just mental diarrhea . I'm certainly not saying you or anyone else "should" like any synth or synthesis method. I guess I'm just suggesting that there are plusses to some kinds of synths that are better represented by mature commercial offerings than low-money-ware. so what? nevermind...

Summa wrote:

Bones: Of course you can use a sampler, but even if it's a very good one with lots of synthesis features, "good FM sounds" can't be simply sampled, they're not static, they can change rapidly as you touch the mod-wheel, what can add a whole new dimension to the sound.

What mod-wheel? I don't have a mod-wheel attached to my computer.

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FM isn't unintuitive, you just need more time to gain the experience what the parameters do than with a subtractive synth since it's more powerfull and most current "pro-subtractive synths" like Q, Virus, Andromeda or NL3 do have FM abilities as well.

I bought a DX-9 in 1984 which I used live for 5 years. I think I gave it more than enough time. It is completely unintuitive. JUNGLIST also has very capable FM that I understand how to employ. And now that I just bought the PlastiCZ I have another synth that will do those FM kind of sounds that is also easy to understand. [I owned a CZ-101 for a few years in the mid-80's. It was my first multi-timbral synth and I used it A LOT.]

BONES wrote:

Summa wrote: Bones: Of course you can use a sampler, but even if it's a very good one with lots of synthesis features, "good FM sounds" can't be simply sampled, they're not static, they can change rapidly as you touch the mod-wheel, what can add a whole new dimension to the sound. What mod-wheel? I don't have a mod-wheel attached to my computer. Quote: FM isn't unintuitive, you just need more time to gain the experience what the parameters do than with a subtractive synth since it's more powerfull and most current "pro-subtractive synths" like Q, Virus, Andromeda or NL3 do have FM abilities as well. I bought a DX-9 in 1984 which I used live for 5 years. I think I gave it more than enough time. It is completely unintuitive. JUNGLIST also has very capable FM that I understand how to employ. And now that I just bought the PlastiCZ I have another synth that will do those FM kind of sounds that is also easy to understand. [I owned a CZ-101 for a few years in the mid-80's. It was my first multi-timbral synth and I used it A LOT.]

If you don't have mod-wheel attached to your computer, you probably don't use a keyboard anymore, but it's the same as controller #1 and most sequencers will let draw the controller with the mouse...
So having no Mod-Wheel is no argument when it comes to using a synthesizer like a real instrument that can support the melodie by changing the sound according to the mood you want to express at that certain moment...

Well, guess what, your CZ was an FM-Synth (actually FM and PD is both Phase Modulation) too, they just gave it a different name has a slightly different implementation and an easy to use user interface.
Well, that's the point for the FM7 since it has a nice and easy to use interface with easy page, envelope links and other nice features to make FM-Programming easy.
I use my TX81z since 1987 and a FS1R since 1999, so I think I can feel your pain. Yamaha unfortunately has a tendency to built synths with bad user interfaces and I tend to programm those synths with editor software...
In my opinion the PlastiCZ will not do typical FM Sounds since in the current setup of parameter it's synthesis wise quite limited and the presets only sound due to the FX section and when you turned that section off it will not even reach the flexibility of a CZ101. Anyway, even the CZ isn't realy able to do the typical FM sounds but fortunately the ringmodulation is routed quite elegant into the system and that way the synth can come close to some FM sounds and even doing some wavetable-synthesis like sounding stuff when programmed the right way...

nightspan wrote:

well why use anything but samplers then?

I think you answered your own question. Not every piece of an arrangement needs to have all the lush features, most parts are relatively static in terms of their sonic content, although I often use SAMPLER for the more engaging, moving timbres because my PC has 1Gb of RAM and I can load instruments that my 16Mb ASR-10 could never have imagined.

Summa wrote:

If you don't have mod-wheel attached to your computer, you probably don't use a keyboard anymore, but it's the same as controller #1 and most sequencers will let draw the controller with the mouse... So having no Mod-Wheel is no argument when it comes to using a synthesizer like a real instrument that can support the melodie by changing the sound according to the mood you want to express at that certain moment...

I never really use mod-wheels or any other controllers when I'm playing. It doesn't really suit what I do. As for melody, what is it!?!

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Well, guess what, your CZ was an FM-Synth (actually FM and PD is both Phase Modulation) too, they just gave it a different name has a slightly different implementation and an easy to use user interface. Well, that's the point for the FM7 since it has a nice and easy to use interface with easy page, envelope links and other nice features to make FM-Programming easy.

... but my original point was that none of the FM7 presets really did much for me. The anti-FM thing was just an aside. Anyway, as I said before, JUNGLIST is also an FM synth, as is WASP and a few other VSTi that I already own.

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I use my TX81z since 1987 and a FS1R since 1999, so I think I can feel your pain. Yamaha unfortunately has a tendency to built synths with bad user interfaces and I tend to programm those synths with editor software...

Everyone says that about the CS1x but I actually found it easy to use.

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In my opinion the PlastiCZ will not do typical FM Sounds since in the current setup of parameter it's synthesis wise quite limited and the presets only sound due to the FX section and when you turned that section off it will not even reach the flexibility of a CZ101. Anyway, even the CZ isn't realy able to do the typical FM sounds but fortunately the ringmodulation is routed quite elegant into the system and that way the synth can come close to some FM sounds and even doing some wavetable-synthesis like sounding stuff when programmed the right way...

... again, I'm not interested in "typical FM sounds", I just want to make my songs and I'll use whatever works to achieve the best result. Besides, for the money PlastiCZ! is amazing, which gets us back on-topic because I'd much rather spend a few hundred dollars on half-a-dozen shareware priced VSTi than on one NI instrument.