See - http://www.kvr-vst.com/tae.php

Discuss here if you wish

Well, what is there to say, except: I WANT ONE!!!!!



Forget the fancy graphics and listen to the sound!

Sounds really great! Even much more authentic than Pro 53!
In the mp3 samples is the spirit of Larry Fast and W. Carlos!
Do you how much it will cost? I hope there will be no bad copy protection with dongle or c/r bullshit!

I wish they released a nice synth for 70$ with all this technology and without the wiring and huge screensize.

I couldn't care less for analog - i just want something that sounds nice.

My favorite purchase of all time is Tau Pro.

But if 'they' released a nice synth for 70 dollars, it probably wouldn't sound as good, because they wouldn't have spent as much time and/or hired excellent programmers. Look, it's like shoes. If you spend 10 bucks on a pair of shoes, they will look, feel like 10 dollar shoes, and probably last one summer. If you buy 100 dollar shoes, you'll feel like John Travolta in SNFever and they'll last you many more years. Save up and buy TAE, or spend 70 bucks and make excellent aliasing music!

BTW, modular synths are almost always big and messy. At least you don't have to write down the patch to remember what you did, and you don't have to soulder the cables every 6 months!

Interesting article.

Ben, i think the link to the model_e_c1_saw.wav file is broken.

There's always a whinger.

Hello,


[ rant more on ]

Now, don't get me wrong, that moog emulation does look seriously good, but all that "technical" info is NOTHING NEW.

Sure, pro52 aliases, but compare it to a REAL synth.
Look at the waveforms of RGCaudio and Muon-software, please.

The filter? Well, have a look at www.musicdsp.org and you'll see plenty of moog-emulation filters. If it's just as complicated as that article describes then it's not even a very advanced filter-algorithm.

Not wanting to sound disrespectfull, but imho (and not me alone) this all sounds a lot like "let's use technical terms and blow people away"-marketing.

I wished people wouldn't try to convince us with technical info, but rather let the USERS decide about the technical/musical excelence with their ears.

[ rant more off ]

*ahem*

Now, lemme try that demo when it's there

greetings,



- bram

Sheesh, does the Pro-53 really produce that much aliasing? I would think that those third-generation oscillators would have nailed that problem by now.

I hesitate to ask, but if you're listening Steffen (from NI), could you comment on this? Thanks!

Quote:

Sheesh, does the Pro-53 really produce that much aliasing?

Nevermind pro53, did you hear the Absynth demo?

edit: yes I know it's not supposed to be an analogue emulation.

Bram wrote:

Hello, [ rant more on ] Now, don't get me wrong, that moog emulation does look seriously good, but all that "technical" info is NOTHING NEW. Sure, pro52 aliases, but compare it to a REAL synth. Look at the waveforms of RGCaudio and Muon-software, please. The filter? Well, have a look at www.musicdsp.org and you'll see plenty of moog-emulation filters. If it's just as complicated as that article describes then it's not even a very advanced filter-algorithm. Not wanting to sound disrespectfull, but imho (and not me alone) this all sounds a lot like "let's use technical terms and blow people away"-marketing. I wished people wouldn't try to convince us with technical info, but rather let the USERS decide about the technical/musical excelence with their ears. [ rant more off ] *ahem* Now, lemme try that demo when it's there greetings, - bram

Thanx a lot Bram. I couldn't have said it better. Now gimme the demo! Real life counts.

I'm checking the audios right now and I laughed when I found out this:

The TAE Oscillator is THAT instable that it is even heavily out of tune compared to the Moog Oscilator. Or is it vice versa?

Sorry, but making such a big technical rant and having such unprecise audios is a funny thing. Let's hope the synth is better than the presentation.
OK, back to the mp3s. This thing seems to have some serious BALLS.

So where's the demo?

Oh no,
Before I read this I thought the pro-53 was a fantastic sounding synth. Now it's been scientifically proven that I was wrong.
What am I gonna use 'till the TAE oscillators come out?

btw. Knocking copy gives me no confidence in any product. Suggest you change your publicity.

BTW, do hardware synths such the Virus, Novation, 'suffer' from aliasing at all?

Cheers.

The Arturia Modular is a great sounding synth, but this article is misleading. Most good soft synths do not alias as badly as Absynth. Most good soft synths sound a lot better than the obsolete Model E. He should do comparisons to anything from RGCAudio or LinPlug.

People should maybe reread the article. Some folk are reacting as though this is a sales pitch by Arturia. I dont think it is; its introduced as a brief analysis by a sound designer who happens to be beta-testing the software.

As such, some of this stuff might be novel to him, and he might not be aware that its covered by the literature. Its not even claimed to be an exhaustive comparison, just an investigation of what happens with sawtooths; its just as likely he picked the Pro53 to make comparisons with because he already owns it and it was a handy well-known reference point...

whyterabbyt wrote:

Some folk are reacting as though this is a sales pitch by Arturia.

Sorry rabbyt, thats because this looks exactly like a sales pitch by Arturia.

Quote:

When I grow up I want to own more modular softsynths than Scot Solida...

I don't think that's possible, there are no MORE modular softsynths

This statement confused me. Can someone explain further how this is relavant in a SINGLE osc sound?

Instability - With the instability of analog oscillators, you get more bass sounds, without acid high frequencies

If he is speaking of the detuned effect than most any modern synth allows osc's to be detuned. I cannot think of any effect is has in a single osc patch. What am I missing?

Robert

rabid quoth Sorry rabbyt, thats because this looks exactly like a sales pitch by Arturia.

He admits there is some stuff by Arturia in the article but it still reads a bit 'ooh gosh' for a sales pitch...

Rabid wrote:

This statement confused me. Can someone explain further how this is relavant in a SINGLE osc sound? Instability - With the instability of analog oscillators, you get more bass sounds, without acid high frequencies

Well, I think what he means is:

I think it wouldn't matter if we were talking about a sine wave. But a saw tooth is mathematically a whole bunch of sines stuck togther, some of them have very high frequencies. If you're mathematically perfect, these come through loud and clear. If you're not, while the fundamental components don't move about that much, the higher frequencies are all over the place and so aren't distinct.

I'm sure there is at least ONE MORE modular synth I don't own...

cold c wrote:

Interesting article. Ben, i think the link to the model_e_c1_saw.wav file is broken.

Works here...

whyterabbyt wrote:

rabid quoth Sorry rabbyt, thats because this looks exactly like a sales pitch by Arturia. He admits there is some stuff by Arturia in the article but it still reads a bit 'ooh gosh' for a sales pitch...

I said no such thing!

Robert

Thanks Phaedo. I get it now. The slightly shifting harmonics are part of what makes an analog seem to sing, like a guitar through a nice tube amp.

Robert

Scot Solida wrote:

I'm sure there is at least ONE MORE modular synth I don't own...

....... YET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

erm, uh....yeah. I know. I'm a gear slut.

Some of you guys I don't understand.
What's wrong with wanting to sell something you put a lot of work into. What would be wrong with a sales pitch. Do you get immediately hypnotized and have to fight it.
Should they say: our synth is no good, check the sound examples, see we picked a much more expensive hardware to compare it to. We just wanted to let you know that its not worth buying and we gonna be bankrupt soon, and will not be able to do anymore synth.
Some guys want better synth ,but obviously can't see that the guys that do the work could as well do something else to make their living.

I don't see any sales pitch in this article. Matt Lupo compared some sounds. I found it interesting. I liked the demos at the end. They already convinced me to get the thing. I still like the pro-53, rgcaudo, virsyn-tera and for sure oddity and ......
Are all positiv KvR-reviews sales pitches from the producers? And the bad ones from the competitor? And if. Who cares.
Have fun, make music and buy plugs and hosts, so we will have even better ones.
I earn my living in a totally unrelated field. (In case someone gets the idea that I could profit from anything here )

I'm back to fruity with 5 oddities and phatfactory and some albinos that I got running there.

Well, the developers here are very good about not putting each other down, or pushing their products by saying it is better than a product by someone else. You can always do selective comparisons and find things your product does better, but this is best left to us, the users. It's just not good form and I think that is what got people started with this article. OK. It is not written by a developer, but it almost seemed like it. I’m not sure people are criticizing the writer as much as they are defending the companies and synths that were targeted as being inferior.

Robert

Ok from the examples this seems like a nice sounding digital synth...but it still sounds digital... Oh well....I'll probably purchase a studio Electronics SE-1 or ATC...

rok wrote:

Some of you guys I don't understand. What's wrong with wanting to sell something you put a lot of work into. What would be wrong with a sales pitch. Do you get immediately hypnotized and have to fight it. Should they say: our synth is no good, check the sound examples, see we picked a much more expensive hardware to compare it to. We just wanted to let you know that its not worth buying and we gonna be bankrupt soon, and will not be able to do anymore synth. Some guys want better synth ,but obviously can't see that the guys that do the work could as well do something else to make their living. I don't see any sales pitch in this article. Matt Lupo compared some sounds. I found it interesting. I liked the demos at the end. They already convinced me to get the thing. I still like the pro-53, rgcaudo, virsyn-tera and for sure oddity and ...... Are all positiv KvR-reviews sales pitches from the producers? And the bad ones from the competitor? And if. Who cares. Have fun, make music and buy plugs and hosts, so we will have even better ones. I earn my living in a totally unrelated field. (In case someone gets the idea that I could profit from anything here ) I'm back to fruity with 5 oddities and phatfactory and some albinos that I got running there.

Hey rok,

I think you misunderstood some things here. If your comment would be in some other threads where I thought in a similar way often I would understand it. But not in this one. No prob with a sales pitch. Only problem with uncool "we-are-better-and-we-compare-for-you-so-you-can-see" articles. Therefor I was critical with the technical correctness of the Oscillator example. It's out of tune. Nothing wrong with the rest. I didn't read the article. As it doesn't bother me. I'm interested in the sound and the last two examples (especially the last one) are really cool.

Gimme more sales pitches, read mp3s! Hehehe...

Ok hear are some examples of a Moog Voyager:

http://www.midiwall.com/gear/voyager/listen.html

I am only using my earphones now so I guess I'll wait a little longer to pass judgement...so I take back what I said... Anyone have a shipping date for this thing?

Ben | KvR wrote:

cold c wrote: Interesting article. Ben, i think the link to the model_e_c1_saw.wav file is broken. Works here...

Sorry, what i meant was, i think the linky for "model_e_c1_saw.wav" is pointing to "mercury_c1_saw.wav".

My thoughts on the technical content of the article...

Figures 1 & 2 - Native Instruments have concentrated on reducing aliasing at the low frequencies where you really hear it - below 10 kHz it appears to be performing better than the TAE example, but we can't really see because of the TAE's pitch modulation. As aliasing can vary from note to note spectrogram plots of a frequency sweep would be more useful here. Model E actually looks quite good considering it's age!

Figure 7 - The TAE waveform is closer to the Moog, but seems to be missing an additional stage of high-pass filtering (usually a DC-blocking capacitor) that gives the waveform that upwards curve just before the next spike, though you would only hear the difference when directly comparing the two. Listening to the C1 examples, the TAE and Moog have quite a different tone - this might just be because the pitches aren't matched, but also the overall spectral content is different. The TAE waveform also exhibits ringing before the spikes unlike the Moog, but I doubt this is very audible.

Figure 9 shows much more pitch instability than I've seen on a MiniMoog which tends to vary over several seconds, but maybe a Moog Modular really is that unstable, I haven't played with one.

Figure 10 looks like it came from filter design software rather than measurements, as it doesn't show the bumps at harmonics of the resonance frequency that occur both in the real thing, and in publicly available "moog" filter algorithms (strangely enough, caused by the soft clipping they describe next, which is how I expect the majority of softsynths with self-oscillating filters work).

None of this is meant as criticism of their synth - I'm sure it sounds great - but the article seems a bit clumsy and doesn't show they are doing anything more than attempting to model the *sound* of a Moog modular using current DSP techniques, rather than the actual circuits.

Paul.

hmmm

more psuedo science - yes the alaising is there at about -90 Db - so unless you are in the over £1000 amp territory and are playing very loud you cannot hear it.

You would need a very nice acoustic area as well

So this is obviously a SERIOUS problem

And of course if you double the sample rate - say run softsynths at 96 khz, which a modern PC will quite happily do then the aliasing goes even further away

And of course the alaising is the best thing about PPg wave and absynth

A little character helps (are you listening Muon)
After all if all old synths were great cos of their analogue nature then they we all be "classics"

They arent are they - cos some didnt sound as good ?

Lacked character -

Still i want to hear this thing but PLEASE this is not science it is an advert

Hi bajongo,
I guess your right, would fit better to other threads.

I find "we-are-better-and-we-compare-for-you-so-you-can-see" articles more helpful than annoying. It helps me to see in what point the product concentrates to be better.
At my job , I usually ask for competitive statements from the companies, who's products I have to evaluate. If they don't even claim to be better in points we need, well.

Arturia claims to be very close to the original.
What I heard from the demos, it sounds like.
I will for sure buy it. Just for the fun of it.

Now back to fun with another modular. Virsyn-Tera

While I got to hear & play with the Moog Modular at NAMM, I don't think it was a fair test without having my real Moog around to hear compare it against. What I WILL say is that functionally it's got no equal, it's easier & faster to use than my nord & pulsar modulars yet just as flexible (at least at doing the moog thing, the pulsar has a bunch of wavetable, fm, & sample oscillators that it can't match). AFA the listening examples go, you can easily hear a certain depth & roundness in the Arturia examples that aren't in the others (& that I've also never heard in the Muon, Linplug, or analog-styled RGC releases (the z3ta+ is another matter, that thing's sweet)).

We already have them on order so I'll be sure to demo it against the Voyager, Moog Prodigy, & Studio Electronics ATC-1 when they get here (& will post audio examples then). btw, I sold my personal Minimoog after testing it against the latest Pulsar Mini, digital's getting there!

Hey Paul, when can we expect MDAs Minimoog clone ? I'll let you charge me for it now .

Hmm.

My problem isn't with the "we are better" part, I don't mind that at ALL.

My problem is with the "these new technical TAE features are *so* inovative" while they are, well, basicaly not inovative at all.

Hey, I'll even say the examples sound WICKED, but puhlease, spare us the TAE-techno-babbel-that-makes-no-sense.

Give me a clear, technicaly-right explanation like Paul/MDA just gave any day above the 'analysis' by Matt.

cheers!

- bram

cold c wrote:

Ben | KvR wrote: cold c wrote: Interesting article. Ben, i think the link to the model_e_c1_saw.wav file is broken. Works here... Sorry, what i meant was, i think the linky for "model_e_c1_saw.wav" is pointing to "mercury_c1_saw.wav".

Doh! Fixed

Quote:

A little character helps (are you listening Muon)

I was staying out of this discussion, after all we did it to death here already not so long back...and I agree with Bram, there's nothing new or revolutionary about oscillators that don't alias, we've been doing them for years.

But I'm a little confused by your comment. Are you saying that our products lack character entirely because they don't alias (in that curious way that analogue synths simply don't)? Or is this some kind of broader criticism - if it is, why not drop me a mail or start another thread over on our support forum?

Regards
Dave
Muon Software Ltd
www.muon-software.com

I don't want this to get ugly, & I'm not the one who made the original comment, but I will say that few softsynths have ever lived up to the boastings of their creators & they're generally pretty character-less. The fact that a Waldorf Pulse - with its DCO's - has all that analog character & liveliness that everyone covets should convince designers to forget the idea that it's the oscillators that matter most.

You can listen to the oscillator test I made between my Minimoog & the Creamware Minimax at http://www.jrrshop.com/eric, they're as close to perfect as you could ever hope for, yet what really gives the Minimax character isn't the oscillators at all but the way overdrives when you crank it up (especially when you use the feedback function, which emulates taking the Mini's extra output & plugging it back in through the aux in). You'll find the same kind of overdriven filter sound in the 303, the ms-20, & the pulse (which is even designed to be overdriven in this way).

This is a quote from Bobb at the cubase.net forum who emailed the developer of this moog modular about other upcoming synths based on the same technology:

"BTW. I got a mail from David PONCET Director of Marketing ARTURIA


quote:
We will certainly make the CS-80 synth, as well as the Oberheim Eight-Voice.
But I can't say when."

If you're like me and would love to see an Audio Units version of Arturia's upcoming Moog Modular System synth, then let them know by filling out the survey at the following link. They don't list Audio Units under the protocol list so make sure you write that in under "comments":

http://www.arturia.com/en/modular_survey.html

Let our voices be heard!

Can anybody fill me in on this strange moog-obsession .. or even wider .. analog obsession that seems to be going round here ? What's with this collective regression to good old analog days !

Somebody should make a synth called Oedipus !

Is everybody here stuck in the past ? I once - when I was not this ugly and a lot younger - had a minimoog and a polymoog and some arp gear and I'm glad I got rid of it all years ago. Don't miss it one second.
Or is everybody here driving VW beetles as well. Nobody told this was a retro club.
Some of it looks and sounds like contemporary 'brand' obsession. You guys all wear designer/brand clothes as well or what ?

Listen to some of the music - oh well - that was made with all these dinosaurs and you'll remember where punk came from.

I find it fascinating to see a digital synth explosion - how old is VSTi , a year and a half since it really took off I think - and at the same time this almost collective longing for analog gear.
Are we deluding ourselves ? Is it the quality of the VSTi instruments trhat keeps us from making great music ? Can somebody explain to me why , in this day and age, with all this great gear available at these prices - compare that to the analog days !! - I constantly only hear bullshit on the radio and TV. Is there anybody out there still making music ? Or is this all part of some ongoing collective fin de sciecle artistic depression. We rather talk and dream about synths than use them.

It is never the gear that stands between the muse and the musician !

I wouldn't hold my breath for this french moog clone. Like my grand-dad used to say, there's two good things about france, wine and cheese.

And Storm falls way short on lots of levels, so don't let your expectations go wild....

Funny seeing everybody hanging on to a thread hoping some frenchman came up with the ultimate algorythm !
e=mc2 for musicians ?
I don't think so.

dmholtof wrote:

Can anybody fill me in on this strange moog-obsession .. or even wider .. analog obsession that seems to be going round here ? What's with this collective regression to good old analog days !....

A lot of us went through the good old “analog” days. When the 80’s hit we were grateful for digital synthesizers that were much cheaper, held tune on stage, and were relatively maintenance free. Once the euphoria of cheap synths with 16 voices and 64 programs wore off we listened to the sounds, and we cried. Did you ever plug the headphones directly into the MiniMoog, play a note, and just listen to how the oscillators played off each other? White noise sounded like wind. Now we get the sound of air rushing out of a heating vent. In truth, digital is very inexact. I don’t care if it is digital music, a picture from a digital camera, or a spreadsheet with banking information. Every been through an audit when the CPA wanted to know why the numbers on your spreadsheet was off by a few pennies? You have to explain the effects of rounding, and convenes the auditor that the pennies really are there. They just cannot be reproduced digitally. Same thing with sound. We are not going to be happy until we can hear the pennies. We really don’t want to go through the 80’s again with flat, dead, lifeless sounds. A good analog can sing like a guitar. So far a good VSTi can humm good tune. We want singing. Luckily, VSTi's can be developed by indepentants and small companies who know how important this is. Because users and developers keep pushing some day our VSTi's will sing.

Robert

you are a poet my friend ... I spent some ten years and two ex-wives with my headphones plugged into my mini-moog ... where where you then ?? ... one of my ex'es would have gone for your poetic delusion ... but then again ... who cares about ex'es ....

I know what you're saying, but none of that disturbs me much at all. Because nobody - except us freaks - will hear any of this anyway in the end result, the song, the record etc etc.

that is if you're not listening as an accountant looking for pennies.... listen with your ears.. not your brain... Have you ever NOT bought an album because of the instrument used ?? Honestly ? Would you NOT buy an album because the keyboard player uses digital ? Where is the music in all these analog wet dreams ?

may the muse be with you

So I heard some of the examples. I thought that both the (boo! Hiss!) competitor sounds and the Arturia sounds were valid. Both were good, just different. I guess my ears are just not sophisticated.
Bob V
:logic: :logic: :logic: :logic: :logic: :logic: :logic: :logic: :logic:  :logic: :logic: :logic: :logic: :logic: :logic: :logic: :logic: :logic:  :logic: :logic:

[img][/img]

Thank you. Sometimes I do listen to the pennies, but that is because I love sound design, thanks to that old MiniMoog. I cannot say that I have NOT bought a record because of a sound, but I am selective about what I listen to. A lot of my 80's music sits in the closet. The robotic feel and dull, thin sounds of a lot of electronic music no longer holds my interrest. Would any of us buy another song with a bass line made totally fromthe FM7 slap bass patch? For years I was bitter towards Yamaha for what they did to keyboards with the release of the DX7. Sure, I owned one but it could never compare to the Rhodes Chroma or MemoryMoog that I lost in a fire. I wanted my keyboards to sing like Janice Joplin and my DX7 could only sing like Tiny Tim. I don't know if it is just us musicians that notice the difference, but first and formost my music has to please myself. Having said that, not every synth needs to sing. But what ever I play lead on should. So far, z3ta+ has come the closest to giving me that tonal quality, but we are not married. My eyes roam.

Robert

When they (and I ) were still fresh, I could never afford a Prophet 5, or a Roland System 100, or an Arp 2600, or a Moog Modular (never even saw one!!). How much does a real Oddity cost today? So now that they're here in a virtual form (well not the Roland), I can't help but be excited!

That doesn't stop me from playing and enjoying the latest synthesis applications as well, like Absynth, Reaktor (for its granular synthesis), Maelstrom, Urs' Zoyd. I think I speak for many of us when I say: old is good, new is good - bring 'em all on!!

PS: it's like today's youth's fashion: a little from the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's makes the 00's.

This discussion about the quality of analog synthesizer is ridiculous. Everybody whose really like synthesizer music know, how powerful analogs sounds and how easy you can edit them.
The Moogs, Oberheims, Roland Jupiter 8, Elka Synthex and Prophet 5 blows all away… Nothing about digitals and virtuals, they are different. I like for example NI Absynth very much, is not a analog, but it sounds great. And Pro 53 sounds not authentic like a "real" Prophet 5, but good enough. And so on.
Personally I don't like Samplers/Romplers, they are chameleons without own character. In spite of they are useful for many musicians. Like the analogs. Therefore VSTi analogs are useful too. People like dmholtof perhaps only need a one good Sampler like Kontakt and should be