Hope this ain't too OT for Instruments, but...

All this talk of underappreciation of freewares reminds me of another point I've been meaning to bring up here.. I think a fair few of the smaller commercial VSTi devs would like an answer to this one.

I was talking to a marketing-guru friend not so long ago about the success rates and "hit rates" of various kinds of campaign. Normally you expect a pretty low rate of response even in fairly well targeted marketing campaigns.

However.. when the customer actually comes to you voluntarily and tries the product out, the marketers would say that you should expect a very high return-rate at that point. Yet we know from the web stats comparing sales figures to downloads of freebies and demos that this is far from the case. When I told the guru about the ratios we were seeing, he was kinda shocked... normally to get that low a response rate from customers that are already somehow interested, you have to actively push people away!

Which, frankly, leaves me a bit puzzled.

- it's not because the product sucks, we know from our users and mag reviews that the product is good... indeed, it has precious little to do with the product at all as other vsti developers i've spoken to have exactly the same experience.

- warez comes in to it to -some- extent maybe, but why would people bother downloading demos if they can get a pirate copy? In any case, our demos are not "crackable" to the full thing, so that can't be it. Freeware goodies do see more downloads again than demos, but they're both of the same order of magnitude. so it may be a factor, but not the overriding one.

- so what is it..? we see these vast numbers of downloads and then... very little. we don't get flames saying "this sucks", we don't get (many) begging letters from students and impoverished types... i just don't get it.

Anyone can shed some light on this?

Angus,
I can only speak for myself on this one.

I have allways wanted the dr0008, but a long time ago before it was out I had the rm2 and the attack. At that point you were having a special to buy the dr005 and then a free upgrade to the dr008.

I was pessimistic becuase I didn't know wha the dr008 would turn into. Now I want it, but it is priced so much higher than the competitors that it seems out of reach and redundant for me since I allready have the rmIII (upgraded) and attack.

I have tried the demo, and have not bought the product yet, it is hard for me to justify the cost of it. Maybe you could offer some sort of cross grade to snatch up all the peeps who have other competing drum machines. I know I would do it in a second.

PS I'm one of those that emailed you about student discounts.


dw

Few observations:

- Internet makes it too easy to "Check something out" - those marketing principles were written in old times where you had to actually do something (like walk to the store, pay for the mag, call on the phone) to check a new product out.

- Many people check new things having in mind a single purpose - "to replace something they use with something better". If your product fails to entice them to change - they are no longer interested.

- Many people check new products out with a hope that it will make them a better musician (warez whores) - you won't see return from them ever.

I haven't got Dr-008 yet myself, but always have had the demo. Unfortunately at the time I got my drum sampler RMIII, I was in the, all I need is a basic setup to play rock style drums. That has changed and one day I will get the Dr-008, but right now it is beyond my budget.

As to your question. I am not sure. You have a competitor, Battery, and I have noticed that with a lot of the established market (e.g. cubase.net users), getting them to move away from a big name manufacturer can be quite hard. I am not sure why and you are not the only example. That might be part of it.

prog

I'm no marketing guru, but maybe you have to reward the interest of those early (potential) customers with huge discounts, then once you have them, brand loyalty can come into it.

With a demo, it also depends on how instant the product is (wow factor? - the first few presets etc.) More flexible/complex software is great, but many people will never get to to try out those features in a demo.

The combination of these two should help pick up more impulse purchasers.

Oh yeah, and always reward your existing customers with offers for your new products, they will evangelise about you whenever they can.

I would like to place ephasis on this point i made:

- Many people check new things having in mind a single purpose - "to replace something they use with something better". If your product fails to entice them to change - they are no longer interested.

With the level of saturation you guys created in this arena this is probably the most important one. I mean most everyone already has every given tool in one way or other.

Here's a real life example - how many "revolutionary" CD players one might need in the house? Even if a brand new spanking one comes out every month?

Also in this case there is a high "wank factor," IMHO. All of us here are allegedly into making music, but the fact is we often don't work on it enough, use our (virtual) equipment limitations as an excuse, and are often preoccupied with the idea of trying out VSTi's in the vain hope that it will make our music flourish. Hence we spend an inordinate amount of time "window shopping" VSTi's instead of working with the tools we already have. It's fun, it's too damned easy, and it's a great excuse for not getting our tunes done.

By the way, you gave me dr-008 for being a beta tester, but I assure you I would have bought it otherwise. It is simply a wonderful product. Thank you for your great work.

Do any of you kids remember the saying "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please everyone all the time.'
Well?

Moby might be amazed he has sold millions around the world already.
Will it continue? He hopes, but probably not. (No offence Mr. Moby, it's just business.) Ten years ago three people in my neighboorhood knew I played 'that crappy techno shit', and I couldn't impress even my own cats. Now I've made some great friends around the world via the internet I talk to on a daily basis and send them CD's and MP3's of my stuff, and they ask for more and how did I get that sound, or where did I get that sample from? And I do likewise with their music as well. Will it continue - I hope, and it has more promise than Moby's mass popularity stamina.
We all play music in hopes to make money, and we all play music after we're millionaires and the contracts lapsed. So maybe it isn't about the money then? Maybe I'm more succesful than Moby right now?
How's that for optimism!

Hiya,

I can only speak from my personal experience, but there's a few things I can think of:

1) The "DJ" explosion naturally leads to a lot of punters wanting to make tunes and thinking "it can't be that hard" (e.g. like myself ) - so you get some cheap sequencer and some VSTs and start plugging away trying to figure out the whole music thing. The "hoarding" stage then begins when you try out as much as possible - all the demos and hosts and [whispers] warez [/whispers] that you see on the web thinking "one of these will be easier to use/make me an instant star/give me the fattest, most evil bass sound ever" ... but slowly begin to realise that it ain't that easy.
And all up to this point, you haven't really spent all that much money.
Then you start to realise it's not all down to what you got but what you do with it, so restrict yourself to a select few bits and pieces.
(well, this is just my experience so far...)

2) Lack of money and all the great VSTs out there. Again, due to my inexperience, I've been blown away by several VSTis and almost sworn to the devs that I'd buy it sometime - e.g. Junglist ages ago and z3ta+. However, I can't afford to keep buying stuff and I've got VSTs that I haven't even scratched the surface of - e.g. Pentagon, DS404 etc.
I'm currently lusting after MindFX, but at the end of the day, the sale is still gonna depend on if I can afford it or not...

3) Freeware - there's so much good stuff out there, that I've got lots of bases covered for free... e.g. DS404, sampletank free, phatfree... I do find myself wanting stuff - e.g. Slayer, Trilogy, high quality Rhodes etc. etc. - but while I've got freeware approximations or free soundfont/ sample sites, I can always "make do without". Maybe when I get more serious about it and get a proper job and can afford to indulge my hobbies, you'll see some sales from me

4) Demos are free and enough to at least "check out a sound". I.e. I do a lot of faffing about cos I dunno much about music/sound design etc. and when I'm just experimenting with sounds a demo is good enough.

5) Hoarding - the gearlust you get with software is often satisfied by just grabbing a whole load of demos and playing with them and the presets...

6) Sales periods - good marketing technique IMHO, but I often dither or miss them cos I can't afford it at the time and then it goes up to full price and it seems like I've "missed my chance" - thereby creating a negative feeling towards the full price, when really it shouldn't make a difference cos it's the proper price and it was just a bargain before that, but still at the back of my mind is a voice saying "you coulda got pHATmatik Pro for x $$$ and now it's y $$$" etc.
I dunno what strategy you could use instead, but that's just my take on the experience I've had of intro offers I've missed. I guess the reverse is true for folk who've actually used the intro offer tho'

Also, re:sales periods - with hardware there's always the knowledge that "if you wait, the price will drop" - I'm pretty sure the same is true of software, but it seems to decrease in value MUCH SLOWER than hardware. and you don't often see software developers having christmas sales. And you don't often see VST plugins in music gear shops (apart from the biggies like NI stuff etc.) - so you don't get the music shop "discount price" and opportunity to possibly haggle a good deal.

I guess the sales thing is just a need to think of ways to appeal to the "impulse buy"...

7) Presets IMHO, one of the strongest first impressions (and hence impulse to buy) is from a topnotch set of presets - e.g. The Junglist presets blew me away at the time cos I like dnb and bass .

tightarses - I've heard a few folk who use warez justify it by saying "well, I've spent £x on hardware and I'll be f###ed if I spend another £300 on Cubase just to use it" or "well, I've just spent £300 on Cubase so I'll be f###ed if I spend another £x on instruments to use in it"...
dunno what you can so about that tho'.


Anyhows, I guess it's all cos I'm not a "Power-User" and just fiddle now and again. If I was truly gonna sit down and make lots of music, I'd no doubt invest in a set of decent effects plugins and just use those - but instead I've got loads of odds and sods lying about. However, I may be the market everyone's trying to sell to - the newbie muso chump with a short attention span and a hankering for instant satisfaction

yeah, that's MHO - the flood of newcomers to computer music (and to the music scene in general) - lot of them (like me) don't actually know what they want cos they don't actually know what they're doing! so demos and faffing about with stuff is the order of the day... give it time... (I hope)

regards,
dunk

Feveria wrote:

.... Many people check new things having in mind a single purpose - "to replace something they use with something better". If your product fails to entice them to change - they are no longer interested....

This is the point I was going to make, but along with the need to add something with a different sound to my collection. I’ve bought way too many VSTi’s, but I’m always willing to add something new.

Why I download synths that I don’t intend to buy. Curiosity. I can feel satisfied playing with a synth without putting it in a song. Sometimes I just want to know how it works. If I find something special I buy it, but too often the synth turns out to be just another VSTi.

Why I download the same synth again 3 months later. Usually because I like the developer and I really hope they have improved the synth. There are some developers here that I would really like to purchase from. They are personable people with great service and care about what they do. The problem is I already have something that sounds better or works better and that purchase would really be nothing more than a donation. I keep hoping they improve the product or alter it in some way that their instrument will give me a different sound. But as time goes on my collection expands. Expectations rise and what was nice last year is only a shadow today.

What I look for.

Does it sound different? I can have several 3 oscillator single filter VSTi’s if they sound different. Not everything has to have the features of Pentagon I or the sound of the Pro53. This is why I picked up SimSynth Live, Wasp, the LinPlug bundle and more. They are simple, but each has something special that makes them sound a bit different.

Does it give me a sound I don’t get anywhere else? Currently I want VirSyn Tera because of the spectrum morphing. I don’t need anything else out of it. But that is enough to entice me because I don’t get that sound from anything I currently have.

Is it easier to use? Reaktor might do most anything, but I’m not going to deal with reactor when I can use something simpler.

Is it more CPU efficient? As much as I love the sound of z3ta+ I would not consider trying to build an entire song with it.

Does it have easy assignments of MIDI controllers? Becoming more important every day.

What turns me away.

Yet another FM synthesizer that does not do as much as FM7, or does not sound as good.

Poor presets.

CPU problems.

Developers with bad attitudes or customer support.

Aggravating copy protection schemes.

Poor interface.


Robert

I think one of the biggest things is that there are SO MANY DANG VSTis out there that do the SAME exact thing!!!!

otherwise, I think Feveria has hit the nail on the head...

Angus,

My hunch would be that a great portion of people that download demos don't actually make music. They like music, they own a computer, they want to make music. They try out some programs and demos, and have no freaking clue as to how to use them. This goes beyond reading the manual: they comprehend manuals, but when it comes to putting together synths, samplers, and sequencers it is very overwhelming. I don't have any close friends that do electronic music, and it's taken me years to get to the point where I understand exactly what I'm doing and take advantage of the software I have.

sluggo

sluggo wrote:

My hunch would be that a great portion of people that download demos don't actually make music. They like music, they own a computer, they want to make music. They try out some programs and demos, and have no freaking clue as to how to use them. This goes beyond reading the manual: they comprehend manuals, but when it comes to putting together synths, samplers, and sequencers it is very overwhelming.

yup - that's me to a T

plus, with the ubiquity of computers and the affordability of computer music as compared to using hardware, the proportion of "dabblers" must be orders of magnitude greater than those that "dabble" with hardware.

Just the initial monetary investment with hardware precludes "dabbling" - you pays your money, you makes your choice and damn well learns to use it!

Still, as the newbies begin to mature, I'd hope you'd see more sales. I like to think I'm getting better at this music lark, and I'm slowly beginning to understand what I will actually need.

regards,
dunk

Hi Angus,

first of all, after what happened with the internet bubble, you really should be wiser as far as any kind of guru's advice is concerned.

We have analysts for just about everything , and all they spread is scientifically proven non-sense that doesn't cut any wood.
Remember Enron and the likes ? How many analysts did cover them again ?
Stay away from them before you really do need an analyst - a.k.a. a shrink !!

I think the connection you're trying to make is just non-existing. There simply is no relationship between any amount of downloads and possible sales it may generate.

The warez you bring up, always an issue around here ... does the availability of warez actually prevent possible buyers from buying the product. If we're talking about professional/serious users I can say, no way. We need the tax deductions !! A simple reality, and one that gets overlooked way too often. I'd be an idiot if I would download my stuff from a warez site and give my money to the IRS instead. Most of my collegues do exactly the same thing for the very same reasons. I have read some posts here at KvR about professional studios using illegal software, from my experience I tend to hold those for myths more than anything else. Give or take an exception every now and then. Everybody that has any notion about running a (small) business and some elementary accounting experience will know what I mean.

What I can confirm however is that I know many people in the industry - including myself - that do use warez occasionally and more often "illegal" copies from one of their collegues instead of demos but as demo, even though it may be for an extended time - meaning - longer than the demo would allow them to if they need more time to evaluate the product. Most people I know however will either buy the product or just delete it if they don't like it. We're users not collectors, which sets us apart from those warez collectors that they never will/would be customers.

Demo's are most of the time absolutely useless for most of us because of a variety of reasons I won't go into here. About your remark that your demo's can't be cracked to full anyway ... believe me when I say there's plenty of full versions floating around anyway. And most of those have actually been paid for !!

Don't worry about it too much. The kid next door from me has more VSTi and MIDI and audio stuff on his home computer then I have on my workstations I make a living with.

He will never buy any of it - and he hardly uses any of it. Next year it will be something else - xbox games or whatever. Developers and the Software Alliance are deluding themselves and public opinion by claiming millions of sales are being lost by these kids. They'd never ever even consider buying any of it. Again, there's always the occasional exception.

If your product is good enough for you to stand by it and you treat your customers with respect, if you are open to suggestions, you will probably have your market share. But as the word says, it is a market to be 'shared'. Sometimes choosing one product over the other is such a subjective process that I have, more than once been amazed by some of the choices some of my collegues made, and the other way around of course. People have different personalities - if any - and that shines through, even in their choice of tools for the trade.

Don't try to come up with some nice little theory because we're not that predictable.

And as far as the relationship between demo downloads and sales is concerned. I have never ever downloaded a demo or listened to any mp3 for that matter. But spent quite some money on purchasing product. And I do not think I am such an exeption.

Following along the same lines as others, there are a lot of people on the internet that are curious about making music as well as those just looking to play with free downloads.

Without getting into philosophy I'll leave it at this. The internet became one of the most viable places to post ads, spam, etc. Everything we hate about the real world is here in cyberspace.

I had a file up on my old web space, it was 3mb. It was supposed to be a private place. I exceeded my monthly throughput in about a day. Someone was grabbing the file and I seriously doubt I have fans that scour the net for files with my name on it.

If it's free people will grab it.

A lot of what's said here makes a lot of sense. But there is also something else tmo: we live in a consumers world. They consume anything, not only real products but also anything that comes close to it. Look around on any music fair (or any other for that matter) and see the people with plastic bags filled to the rim with flyers, useless gadgets, stickers and what else is thrown at them for their immediate consumer hunger. And in todays world on the internet, these flyers and other promotional materials are replaced with the demo. And even those are "consumed". A lot of kids don't have the money to buy professional software, but they can download a demo, install it to their home's computer and tell their friends "that they looked at it but didn't really liked it".

I think this is the reason that ProTools Free was not developed for WinXP right away. If it was such a great teaser to get people to buy the "real" ProTools gear then there would have been no time lost to release an updated version. But I'm sure 99.999 % of their downloads are installed by someone only to brag about having it.

I know people in my neighbourhood that have a demo of Orion installed with a load of demo's of instruments and effects, just to be able to talk about it in conversations. They are definitely NOT musicians, by any standard.

Hmmm... I know for myself I have never been that curious about the dl/sell ratio. First, the dl is a highly suspect statistic, a guy with a 56k and AOL will download your demo three times to have a chance to grab it entirely. Plus there are the stolen links, ppl coming for wrong reason, etc. We can't link one download to one person. Thus I admit that this figure is not completely meanless... but the ratio... Some days, because of some link posted on a BeOS mailing list, we had more than 1500 downloads. With normal sales.... And the opposite has also happend.

The figure that interest me more is the brutal amount of sale per day; its evolution and how I can link it to special event (reviews, christmas, etc.). The most relevant fact for me is that it's a [small] business. My guess is that all around the world there are less than 30000 potential customers for VST plugs. Oh, there are billions of users, for sure, and they're not all warez kiddies. And yes, the market is slowly growing while the hardware synth market slightly drops down... But the amount of people that really need and are able to pay the market price for high end software audio wouldn't fit an Oasis concert's room in my opinion

Well, what would help is to have a better ratio of real pro user paying for what they use. Don't know how things are going in each others country but here in France, my guess is around 80% cracks for PRO USER. Yes, those guys with dual G4, three stratocaster, high end microphones... And you know what will force them to buy?

Nothing.

I guess this is a addendum to my other post in BONES' thread about the simple synths in life...

And its already been pointed out.. but a reply to this thread is definately a personal thing.. that is, only the reasons apply to A person.. everyone is different.


As for my reasons?

I actually tried DR-008 .. and i very much disliked the interface.

It wasnt what it could do, it was it could do too much.

I think sluggo put it well

Quote:

They like music, they own a computer, they want to make music. They try out some programs and demos, and have no freaking clue as to how to use them. This goes beyond reading the manual: they comprehend manuals, but when it comes to putting together synths, samplers, and sequencers it is very overwhelming

I've been writing for 5 or 6 years now.. and my work method in music heavily conflicted with the way DR-008 works... im suggesting that there are many others that feel the same way.

Product Reviews in magazines are typically done by "experts" in the field that are typically comfortable in more complex environment.. this is one big reason why you see so many praise qualities with dr-008 for example. But the music-market is much broader than just the experts, and for that im sure there are A LOT of confused people who see the praise in the music magazines by the "experts", download the demo, and discover they cant make heads-or-tails of the thing and look elsewhere.

I'm another person who has intended to buy Dr-008 for about a year. I can see its the best solution for percussion, but I just afford it right now.
Its a great piece of design.

just to prove vits point

i am deffo NOT a pro

but i LOVE the dr008 interface purely because it CAN do so much and i love to fiddle and tweak

that and the fact that it is a defiantly SOFTWARE interface

back vaguely OT now

i dont dl many demo versions because the various limitations frustrate me

nor do i use cracks

i suppose i am lucky as i have very clear ideas about what i want and what i like

this and developer reputation [ not just for quality but for innovation and type of instrument ] are what i choose my purchases on

i also listen carefully to trusted and knowledgeable opinion here and at other places though magazine reviews RARELY influence me

perhaps im odd though

slainte rob

My main criteria for downloading something to "check out" is word of mouth. Then I will download it. If I like it it stays so that I can try it out more. If I dislike it, I keep it for a short time (benefit of doubt). If I feel I can't afford it yet, or it is too advanced, or just not my cup of tea, I delete it.

Dr-008 is great including the interface. It's just that, and people have alluded to this before, that when I was looking for a drum sampler, I had not yet figured out my musical identity.

prog

Myself is more or less in the same situation like dusted william. How many drummachine does one need? I already have RMIII, plus ElementP. Not to count most of the sequencers already have built-in drum modules. Even though I'm aware of that DR-008 has pretty much gained the fame of the best drum vsti, I still can't justify spending that much on it since I already can do pretty much anything I need even without it. If I could start it all over again today, I'd probably buy DR-008.

And Angus, you're actually doing pretty well compared to some smaller developers. There are quite some good products got almost completely ignored, like Anarchy's drum fx, Timelooper, virtualcreation's UltraChopper, etc etc. Are they bad products? not at all! But they just failed to get attention somehow.

Marketing is crucial as well. Very few developers here have shown their marketing brilliance as they do with their coding ability.

I've recently visited a forum. A guy there had downloaded a VSTi and posted a message asking for help to make it play sound. Ppl asked him what's his host:
"what is a host?"
"something like Cubase, you know"
"What is Cubase?"

A glowing magazine review is nothing to me, other than maybe a notice that the product is out there. A product has to be very bad before receiving a bad rating in a publication that depends on advertising revenues. When I'm ready to buy something I read everything I can find, then post questions here or at the musicplayer.com forums.

Robert

Red_Force wrote:

Well, what would help is to have a better ratio of real pro user paying for what they use. Don't know how things are going in each others country but here in France, my guess is around 80% cracks for PRO USER. Yes, those guys with dual G4, three stratocaster, high end microphones... And you know what will force them to buy? Nothing.

That is a very wild guess. I can't speak for France , but I do get around in the world quite a lot. All depending on what you call pro of course - where do you draw the line. Most of the people I work with are all using regular software they bought.. and paid for. And the reason why we buy the software is for tax purposes - this is my profession so I need that software to be able to work, so I can tax deduct it and/or write it off as a business investment.
As I mentioned before somewhere else, we do use warez and copies from collegues from time to time to evaluate software as the demos expire too soon or are just plain useless for what we do. But none of the people I know and work with keep anything on their systems that they don't like and consequently buy and use. And that is not for moral but only for practical reasons. If we don't like it we uninstall it. We sure as hell don't need the clutter on our machines. And we're definitely not collectors. The only exceptions I know of, are people that use a warez version of software they actually bought - that should get you or your collegues thinking - to get rid of some of the ridiculous copy protection schemes that are around. Or do you think that I travel around the world with all my original CD's and dongles in my bag .

Hope this helps.

Well, by pro I mean "ppl/company making their business on it". Each time I have met one, he/it was using cracked stuff, between 50 and 100%.

Yes, they can deduce taxes, but that's always more expensive to buy and deduce than to simply not buy. Especially for a company, which is taxed on profit.

Red_Force wrote:

Well, by pro I mean "ppl/company making their business on it". Each time I have met one, he/it was using cracked stuff, between 50 and 100%. Yes, they can deduce taxes, but that's always more expensive to buy and deduce than to simply not buy. Especially for a company, which is taxed on profit.

In my business that would not make any sense at all. If I do not have enough tax deductions/write offs I will be paying way too much taxes (as my profits go over a taxing treshold or ceiling as they call it) .. so its actually cheaper for me to keep my profits down artificially by investing/buying an extra laptop for example or some other stuff I might not even really need, at the end of a good financial year. It's the same with most of my collegues, some of which come from different countries all over the world. Same logic applies to some company cars etc.
If you're not making any money .. then of course ... it is an entirely different discussion.

But there are big differences between tax laws in different countries so you may be right .. I can only say I don't know about France.

OK... taking everyones' points on board here.. can't respond to every one of them, but a lot of very valid things said, thanks for your thoughts and your time; I can say for definite that we will be acting on some of these. Unfortunately as regards "sale periods" we have our hands tied by distributors and retailers but there are other things we can do..

A lot of people have commented specifically on DR-008 (which was not really the point of my post, just an example), however the situation seems equally true with many other "indie" VSTis... on the other hand, they do have something in common - pretty much all the really good indie VSTis until very recently have been "by experts, for experts" machines (that is changing with stuff like Junox and Albino), and most of them do, like DR-008, have big-selling but somewhat inferior competition from the bigger companies... One real problem for us is that there simply aren't all that many of those experts out there as potential customers (they make a lot of noise on the net, but the numbers are too small to sustain a company long-term), and warez is if anything even more prevalent in that crowd (an intelligent person with time on their hands is very likely to be a penniless college student, who is very likely to use cracks exclusively).

cold c: re the loyalty thing, we did that... as an example most DR-005 customers (who paid just $60) got DR-008 (a vastly more powerful, $149 product) free; VST-DX v1 customers got v2 free... etc. We've followed that up by giving DR-008 customers a free v1.11 upgrade of which many people said, "fools, you should have called it 2.0 and charged us", and we continue to produce new modules and kits for it. It's very much a marketing angle for us that you're buying in to a "living" product.

Feveria wrote:

Quote:

With the level of saturation you guys created in this arena this is probably the most important one. I mean most everyone already has every given tool in one way or other.

You see, I don't really see things that way... yes, the market is crowded, but I simply don't believe that's the case. Heck, even looking at the competition... NI is a succesful and profitable company, and I'm sure -some- of our downloaders are Battery users seeing if it's worth upgrading... however, from what I've heard... we're seeing a download rate that's still ten times more than what even they are selling. And as a tool, you really can't compare any of the free machines. Yes, there are tools that will let you play a sample from a given key, but in terms of interface, refinement, speed and easy of getting the job done.. they're nothing.

John Westwood wrote

Quote:

Do any of you kids remember the saying "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please everyone all the time.'

Absolutely... but we're not talking about a small disparity here. I don't expect everyone who downloads a demo to go on to buy. We're talking about a very, very large disparity and many indie VSTi developers see the same thing.

dmholtof wrote

Quote:

And as far as the relationship between demo downloads and sales is concerned. I have never ever downloaded a demo or listened to any mp3 for that matter. But spent quite some money on purchasing product. And I do not think I am such an exeption.

TheWall wrote

Quote:

And Angus, you're actually doing pretty well compared to some smaller developers. There are quite some good products got almost completely ignored, like Anarchy's drum fx, Timelooper, virtualcreation's UltraChopper, etc etc. Are they bad products? not at all! But they just failed to get attention somehow.

Oh, I'm very much aware of that.. a lot of talented coders out there getting no respect, no attention and no sales.. real shame as those guys probably won't continue in the business

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Marketing is crucial as well. Very few developers here have shown their marketing brilliance as they do with their coding ability.

Most of them don't even know what marketing IS, they think it's as simple as advertising... I'm rather lucky in that respect, spent six months as an intern at Razorfish UK... still don't claim to be anything like an expert, but at least have some idea of what it's about.

Rabid wrote

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A glowing magazine review is nothing to me, other than maybe a notice that the product is out there. A product has to be very bad before receiving a bad rating in a publication that depends on advertising revenues.

It's a bit more complex than that... most mags receive basically 0 advertising revenue from companies like FX, Linplug, Muon.. yet they still give good reviews. It would be VERY easy for them to take the Korg shilling and then give BAD reviews to indie developers so as to claim "but of course we have integrity, we don't give everything 9/10". They simply don't review bad indie software because there's no point - they don't even have space to review all the GOOD stuff.

ER.... The web, and the developers' provision of mostly usable DEMOS has made it easy to get really intimate with a piece of software before you buy it. But I think the cream will come to the top...

Redox

...lost original message...
Compared with the hardware sales model, if I were buying a hdwre synth, I would have a much more limited pre-purchase experience. Often I wouldn't be able to discover "blemishes" until I brought the unit home. With demos I can generally trial for an unlimited period of time, with minimal limitation. The honeymoon can devolve to realization of limitations even before a purchase is made..

Given limited budgets, you have to look at your competition in a bigger sense. As users are looking for a particular sound (or maybe a style of working), and has $XX to spend, the competition for $XX is not just for other drum samplers (using the DR008 example), but also other synths, sequencers, or even mics/preamps, etc.
I own DR008, but also RMIII, PhatPro and Cyclone, as well as numerous synths and freebies that can all lay down great beat tracks.
I think the decision process that is actually occurring is more like: "Well I just upgraded my Tassman, so I can't afford DR008 right now, even though I really like it." Cross category, driven by budget.

regards

Redox

Redox wrote:

get really intimate with a piece of software before you buy it. But I think the cream will come to the top... Redox

PLEASE !!!!

..hee hee
That was a Freudian slip....though I do get passionate about my VSTi's!

Redox

well, I talked to the others today and we "did something about it" that I know some of you here will appreciate. Take a look on fxpansion.com right now...

Good idea, very tempting offer. Hope it sells buckets.

Angus_FX wrote:

well, I talked to the others today and we "did something about it" that I know some of you here will appreciate. Take a look on fxpansion.com right now...

Maybe someday I'll got to the site and see the same type of crossgrade deal for VST-DX Adapter.

Robert

Angus, you're killing me!

I'm tapped out this month but might consider doing a rice and beans diet if you can extend the offer to March 3rd. I don't have a source of income until then.

Can we talk? x_bruce@yahoo.com

Bruce

x_bruce wrote:

consider doing a rice and beans diet

Yuk

Looks like your bowel might provide you with all the percussion you need

you snagged me on that one Angus, I sent you off a message just now.

Great idea.


dw

Angus_FX wrote:

well, I talked to the others today and we "did something about it" that I know some of you here will appreciate. Take a look on fxpansion.com right now...

Damn

My wife is going to kill me

prog

Angus_FX wrote:

well, I talked to the others today and we "did something about it" that I know some of you here will appreciate. Take a look on fxpansion.com right now...

Excellent! One order on the way. The extra features compared to Battery are nice, but the price was a bit in excess of what I wold pay to get them. With this offer I can have the best of both worlds.

--
cheers,
helge

heh heh - gotta love the old impulse buy ...erm... impulse...