This is mostly for Developers. About 10 years ago, I started the LowPricePolicy messages to see if I could make Dev minds to make cheap software. Well, that time people flamed to death, like it will happen now, I bet. But I will try to do it again anyway...

Let's say you have a VSTi, you sell for 140$. You sell 100 copies.
100 x 140$ = 14.000$

But, if you do the LowPricePolicy and sell for 29.95$, and people buy like crazy your stuff. And you manage to sell 1000 copies instead.
1000 x 29.95$ = 29.950$

So, you get more, and more people use your software. Also, people will not feel so broke, and may buy more products from you or others comp.

So, I would like to know why Devs still sell stuff for so high prices...

HighPrices = Pro stuff? Well, maybe we could change that. We could make a LowPricePolicy logo, and users would know that our prices are low cause we care. Not cause they are crap.

I wait for some feedback on this.

Regards, WilliamK

Note, just goes mostly for Downloable products. Boxed products can also have lower prices. But they have more work involved... so I'm not sure about the price...

Wk

I’ll give you some user feedback. The $30 and under range of soft synths from Dash, ImageLine and others is appreciated. It enables someone to augment freebies with some full sounding synths without breaking the budget. There are some very nice sounding VSTi’s in that price range. However, I don’t see how you can hope that a developer release a z3ta+ or FM7 for the same price as Hornet or Wasp. We are lucky that every developer is not trying to sell $250 boxed versions. While the amount of sales may increase as price decreases not everything has the same optimal price point. Sometimes a single $100 synth is more valuable than 4 $30 synths. I’m just glad that so many talented developers also look at the direct sales approach. It is nice not having to pay Guitar Center a cut of everything I purchase.

One thing I do wish is more developers had package deals. I would not own so many LinPlug synths if not for the bundle they offer. Effects developers use this strategy but not many instrument developers.

Robert

I 100% agree.

for a long time I have been telling developers this exact same theory.

imho there is a psychological barrier that affects buyers..

soundforge 5, retail £399 (ish) xmas 2001 (i think)
they have an offer of $99 downloadable. I buy as do many many others.

spinaudio, have xmas special of $99 buy them too, DR-008 comp xgrade offer, users post saying they have to get it. get the picture.. ?

then another company release 1 filter plugin for $150, hype it up and sure they sell some, but now we hear hardly anything of them.
my belief is if it was $49 I for one would own it as im sure many others would. and I am also very sure the developers (some) will 100% disagree.


im glad you bought this up again.

WilliamK wrote:

Note, just goes mostly for Downloable products. Boxed products can also have lower prices. But they have more work involved... so I'm not sure about the price... Wk

I'm currently testing out your theory WilliamK.
My Z-V X VSTi is only ?19.90/£19.90/$19.90 - shouldn't be to hard to get the cash for that.

So, people, supporters of this theory, get your funky ass over to www.synergy-7.com and BUY.

Best Regards.
Zeb / S7

in almost any business its better to get lots of little orders than a few big orders. aside from the money issue, you sleep a lot better and your blood pressure is a lot lower when you know you got, say 10,000 customers instead of 10 customers. im not relating this example specifically to the vst world, but just generally to the business world.

Robert posted:

Quote:

It is nice not having to pay Guitar Center a cut of everything I purchase.

Usually it's the developer that takes a smaller percentage on their product. Guitar Center frequently sells stuff for up to 5 - 10% above cost. It's the distributors that make a nice cut of the profits. I tend to agree with Robert in his other ascessments.

Small focused synths should sell for modest prices but when you get to the z3ta+s, VirSyn TERAs, Absynths, Deltas and many more I think it's silly to expect shareware developers and especially commercial developers to charge $40 for a monster of a synth.

There are many reasonably priced synths out there as well. The Alpha, CronoX 2, EnergyPro, William's synths....

But they are limited in design even if some oare spectacular. Even if you don't enjoy a few of the more expensive synths there is bound to be one or two you do like. I know many wouldn't agree but I think N.I. happen to make good sounding synths. I don't enjoy their pricing but understand that it's part of being a commercial company. My choice is to wait or say no. Another developer's choice is to try and make something similar at an affordable price. And that leaves us back at WilliamK's suggestion.

Then there are price lines. Without being disrespectful would you classify daHornet at the same level as Pentagon 1? If not what would you think a reasonable price should be?

If you came out with a daVector VSTi that would be worth more to me than $30. If done to the level of your Reaktor ensembles it would be acceptable at $100, possibly more depending on stability, interface quality and CPU useage.

I'm all for cheap synths but another one on the horizon...Rhino. I spent a couple hours testing the beta and at it's current point it's worth way more than $30 - 40. And it's not a release candidate yet...

If price should reflect quality, William, your synths are accurately priced & I suggest you continue with your Low Price Policy. By the same gauge, z3ta+ is obviously inaccurately priced, its price ought to be INCREASED.

i would like to know how much the small soft synth companies make?? dash synthesis, rgcaudio, linplug, etc... is making soft synths their main source of income??

not as much as some people think.

stogie21 wrote:

i would like to know how much the small soft synth companies make?? dash synthesis, rgcaudio, linplug, etc... is making soft synths their main source of income??

stogie21 wrote:

in almost any business its better to get lots of little orders than a few big orders. aside from the money issue, you sleep a lot better and your blood pressure is a lot lower when you know you got, say 10,000 customers instead of 10 customers. im not relating this example specifically to the vst world, but just generally to the business world.

Not always true. I know several companies in the biotech industry that don't exist anymore, because they were lowballing themselves, by taking lots of small orders at low cost. If you have a staff and expenses that is never going to work. I would suspect that someone like NI has to pay their staff good salaries, pay for benefits, office space leases. That costs money.

prog

There's a perception that the more something costs, the higher quality it must be. Mostly this is a false perception, but nonetheless, you can hurt yourself by pricing something too low. If you want to be seen as "professional" you have to price your stuff accordingly.

Support is also an issue. The more customers you have, the more it costs you to support them, and to make a profit you may have to skimp on support. If each customer costs you $1 a month in support (for a completely bogus example), then it's far better to have 100 customers who paid $100 than 1000 customers who paid $10!

You can compete by having a low price -- which is why I have FruityLoops rather than Cubase, and in fact that $100 price point was the only reason I am into VSTis and making music again now. (However, I bet Cubase has sold more copies than Fruity, and it certainly has more widespread professional recognition.)

So there's some magic number between too cheap and too expensive that is determined by all kinds of hidden costs as well as market perception.

foosnark: will you buy my VSTi if I price it at $99 ?

progfusion74 wrote:

Not always true. I know several companies in the biotech industry that don't exist anymore, because they were lowballing themselves, by taking lots of small orders at low cost. If you have a staff and expenses that is never going to work. I would suspect that someone like NI has to pay their staff good salaries, pay for benefits, office space leases. That costs money. prog

i know it not always true, but i can safely say that the more "cheaper" customers/buyers/orders you have the better you are and risk is reduced. of course its all within reason...

topaz wrote:

not as much as some people think.

well, how much do people think. it would be pretty hard making money in this small market segment. the great thing about the computer music world is that these small companies don't have to put in a fortune marketing their product since word gets around pretty fast, and their synths end up in magazine reviews as well...

as with rgcaudio for example. Do you think that 500 Pentagon I's have been sold?? if so that's about $50,000 before credit card fees. the credit card fees are probably going to be between 1.75%-2.75%, but its still over $48,000. that's some pretty nice pocket change for a company with little or no overhead, advertising costs, workman's comp, and all the other things that go into to most brick and mortor business...

I would love to think Ren'e sold 500 P1's

stogie21 wrote:

progfusion74 wrote: Not always true. I know several companies in the biotech industry that don't exist anymore, because they were lowballing themselves, by taking lots of small orders at low cost. If you have a staff and expenses that is never going to work. I would suspect that someone like NI has to pay their staff good salaries, pay for benefits, office space leases. That costs money. prog i know it not always true, but i can safely say that the more "cheaper" customers/buyers/orders you have the better you are and risk is reduced. of course its all within reason... topaz wrote: not as much as some people think. well, how much do people think. it would be pretty hard making money in this small market segment. the great thing about the computer music world is that these small companies don't have to put in a fortune marketing their product since word gets around pretty fast, and their synths end up in magazine reviews as well... as with rgcaudio for example. Do you think that 500 Pentagon I's have been sold?? if so that's about $50,000 before credit card fees. the credit card fees are probably going to be between 1.75%-2.75%, but its still over $48,000. that's some pretty nice pocket change for a company with little or no overhead, advertising costs, workman's comp, and all the other things that go into to most brick and mortor business...

Lol, this is the first forum ever, where people have complained about too low prices

Tell you what, get me an order of 500, and I can sell em to you for $99 a piece. NO PROBLEM!

heh I almost got those Donald Duck dollarsigns in my eyes now.

* KA CHING *

I think there is one factor that is widely underestimated and even unknown to many developers ... the use of credit cards is widely spread in the anglo-saxon markets (US, UK Australia), and although Credit Cards are available - of course - in for example Europe, the use of them there is a lot more reluctant than in the US for example- and I can speak from first hand info since I know quite some people on the old continent.

Even without all the security issues of using credit cards online, these people don't have the wide spread credit card consumer culture like we have. One of the reasons why e-commerce in general in europe is still lagging way behind compared to the US.

And it is of course the small developers that sell downloadable software that will feel that most. I know that its not easy to solve this problem - as distribution requires a lot of overhead and creates a lot of problems and additional costs.

I don't have much in the way of any suggestions, just wanted to point it out.

Virtual wrote:

I'm currently testing out your theory WilliamK. My Z-V X VSTi is only ?19.90/£19.90/$19.90 - shouldn't be to hard to get the cash for that.

Just a note. Make your site also a text version, since most search-engine-spiders won't see the words on that image. That helps sales. Also, tell people that is a SynthEdit plug more loud, otherwise you could get some angry users. And make more presets for the Demo, that helps a lot too.

Regards, WilliamK

sure, I dont see any mention it's a synthedit creation on the site

did I miss something ?

WilliamK wrote:

Virtual wrote: I'm currently testing out your theory WilliamK. My Z-V X VSTi is only ?19.90/£19.90/$19.90 - shouldn't be to hard to get the cash for that. Just a note. Make your site also a text version, since most search-engine-spiders won't see the words on that image. That helps sales. Also, tell people that is a SynthEdit plug more loud, otherwise you could get some angry users. And make more presets for the Demo, that helps a lot too. Regards, WilliamK

WilliamK quoth Let's say you have a VSTi, you sell for 140$. You sell 100 copies.
100 x 140$ = 14.000$

But, if you do the LowPricePolicy and sell for 29.95$, and people buy like crazy your stuff. And you manage to sell 1000 copies instead.
1000 x 29.95$ = 29.950$

Do you have figures to prove that a product selling at $30 will sell ten times as many units as it would if it were being priced at $150?

Its a big 'if'. Possibly too big for a full-time developer to take a gamble on.

Quote:

foosnark: will you buy my VSTi if I price it at $99 ?

To be quite honest I haven't even downloaded it yet, because the look of it doesn't say "I put a lot of effort into this" to me. It looks like a SynthEdit creation with a fairly generic skin applied to it -- which doesn't convince me that it has a unique sound or a lot of attention to detail put into it. That's the first impression anyway, fair or unfair as it may be.


And as far as that goes, I'm even reluctant to spend $150 on z3ta+, as great as it sounds and as profesionally put together as it is, and even knowing that it's worth far more than that. I'll do it simply because I got the tax refund. FM7 on the other hand -- absolutely fantastic synth that I doubt I'll ever buy because I'm a thrifty bastard at heart.

Which doesn't mean I'm going to argue for NI to lower its price to $40. Now if they'd make a plain DX7/TX81z preset player for $40 with that sound quality I might think about that... but would they be cutting heavily into their FM7 market that way?

Yes, if you lower the price, you will sell more. As long as you make sure people understand that you are doing this for the good-customers-health. Otherwise they will think you are closing your company, desperated for money. That would kill your sales...

That's why I tough on a LowPricePolicy site with a Icon you can place where people can read about why your prices are so low compared to other people...

There is a BIG company that does that for years.
EXPERT SOFTWARE INC (can't find the website tought)


Here they are famous for the cheap products (but with good quality) at Wall-Mart. I got my 3D Home Design for 34R$ (about 10U$)

EXPERT is BIG, UGE, and make a lot of money on those cheap softwares...

Regards, WilliamK

Ok, now for the REAL question.

If I create an website. Totally off DashSynthesis.com, not related. With a name like LowPricePolicy.com (or something like that) and create ICONS or GRAPHICS you can place on your site, and link to a page under this site explaining why the LowPricePolicy.

Who would join this idea?

I would make a list of sites that are using this idea, so people can also find more low-priced sites.

Again, I would not try to make any profit out of it. So no ADS or any mentions to DashSynthesis.com - off course I will put my name as the creator and webmaster, but that's all.

Wk

i think you need some cold hard facts and a case study or two in order to prove that a company will sell three times as many vsts for $50 as it would for $150.

do you have any of these examples from other similar industries??

Well, just look any supermarket. How much they sell when they lower the price of something. Off course, SALES allways make more sales. But I think that people who ask how I dare to say that you will sell more, are people who don't like the idea of low prices. Please, read above again. As I said, if you just lower the prices without telling why, you are in deep trouble. But if you explain why, you will collect a reward.

I will start the LowPricePolicy.com site soon. But I need help to put the explanation on a nice way, so customers can understand...

As allways, some will hate, some will love... 10 years ago people almost killed me for daring this out. But I won't rest this time...

Regards, WilliamK

WilliamK wrote:

Ok, now for the REAL question. If I create an website. Totally off DashSynthesis.com, not related. With a name like LowPricePolicy.com (or something like that) and create ICONS or GRAPHICS you can place on your site, and link to a page under this site explaining why the LowPricePolicy. Who would join this idea? I would make a list of sites that are using this idea, so people can also find more low-priced sites. Again, I would not try to make any profit out of it. So no ADS or any mentions to DashSynthesis.com - off course I will put my name as the creator and webmaster, but that's all. Wk

If I may William, your description sounds exactly like what they already have as a webring. That may be useful for you, see http://www.webring.org/rw
They have the whole traffic statistics and graphics management system already in place. There are several music related webrings already ,like the Cubase ring etc.... You could call yours The LowPricePolicy Ring.
Check it out to see if it suits you.

By this logic, one will always buy the lower-priced product at the supermarker. Most people I know will buy products they trust. So it is a very grey area.

prog

Thanxs for the Ring idea, but is far from what I want. I want a clean site (most Ring managers site has banners, popus, etc...) where it has a page for what is the LowPricePolicy, the icons so people can link to it, and the list of sites using the policy. Very clean, no ads...

If with time it gets too big, I deal with costs on another way. Without adding Ads... my idea is not to get rich with this site. But to get more sales, that's all...

Regards, WilliamK

progfusion74 wrote:

By this logic, one will always buy the lower-priced product at the supermarker. Most people I know will buy products they trust. So it is a very grey area. prog

I agree with you on that one. VERY grey area.

WilliamK wrote:

Thanxs for the Ring idea, but is far from what I want. I want a clean site (most Ring managers site has banners, popus, etc...) where it has a page for what is the LowPricePolicy, the icons so people can link to it, and the list of sites using the policy. Very clean, no ads... If with time it gets too big, I deal with costs on another way. Without adding Ads... my idea is not to get rich with this site. But to get more sales, that's all... Regards, WilliamK

you should be able to find some non-ad supported solution as well. On sourceforge.net you might even find a full opensource ring system in php for free. Plenty of cgi scripts for that too.


BTW I looked at a couple of webring pages,
see http://on.ca.gq.nu/Province-of-Ontario-Business-Advisory-Watch.html
no ads... where's the problem ?

I know what you guys mean. People buy trusted software, indeed, but low price on a software doesn't mean low quality. On Hardware products, yes, low price most of the times means crappy product.

But you have to understand one thing, this is not a new thing. Look Yahoo.com and the new Game-Rent deal. Also, other companies did promos on theyre software during xMas, but only for Downloable versions.

So please, look the first message posted:

Quote:

soundforge 5, retail £399 (ish) xmas 2001 (i think) they have an offer of $99 downloadable. I buy as do many many others. spinaudio, have xmas special of $99 buy them too, DR-008 comp xgrade offer, users post saying they have to get it. get the picture.. ? then another company release 1 filter plugin for $150, hype it up and sure they sell some, but now we hear hardly anything of them. my belief is if it was $49 I for one would own it as im sure many others would. and I am also very sure the developers (some) will 100% disagree.

Wk

The supermarket analogy is an interesting one.

Here's how it goes:

I buy generic baked beans. I dont see any point in paying three times as much for a brand name, when supermarket own-brand ones taste just fine.

However I have no issues paying a lot for cheeses or olives from a delicatessen. I might be able to get more common cheeses cheaper, or cans or jars of olives cheaper, but when I want good marinaded olives, for example, what I can get cheaper, in a can or jar or vaccum pack, will not suffice. I am prepared to pay extra to get exactly what I want. Cheap doesnt substitute.

Sometimes I buy dried mushrooms. However, under no circumstances am I prepared to be fifteen pounds an ounce for dried morels.

Now stepping aside from the shelves, that attitude reflects how I think a lot of people buy things:

1) If a product is cheap (for a given person), and good enough (for that person), then that preson sees no need to pay extra for 'staples'.

2) Even if its less affordable (for a given person) to buy a better-quality product, they will do if that product has something that cheaper products cant quite compete with.

3) Everybody has a limit beyond which they wouldnt even consider buying an item.

At the end of the day, what this means is that even if you were to pursuade a whole load of developers to produce cheaper products, people will still look to the more expensive products to fill certain needs. And it doesnt matter how much people define as 'not a lot of money', they always have a cut-off point they can't justify exceeding.

One of the other things about this; the cheapest products have a certain level of sameiness. When you want something 'a bit different', you're usually prepared to pay more for it... Developers pitching stuff at a cheaper price point means they probably have to appeal to a broader market as well (in other words, yet another VA clone) because the out-there stuff still isnt going to sell to the masses, no matter how cheap it is.


(BTW one of the reasons supermarkets sell you stuff so cheap is because they know
1. you'll probably buy a lot of other stuff from them while you're there
and
2. you'll probably come back very regularly.

Neither of those cases is true for a synth developer, so its not realistic to state that they could sell 3 times more products at a cheaper price because supermarkets do)

Quote:

..the cheapest products have a certain level of sameiness. When you want something 'a bit different', you're usually prepared to pay more for it...

Spot on.. There have been threads on this forum with users crying out for something different and unusual. If a developer (who does this for a living) genuinely believes that they have come up with something different from anybody else than they are going to try and milk the idea for as much as they can untill the rest of the industry catches up and their new idea becomes yesterdays news. We, as users, are a very fickle bunch. Witness the rise and fall and rise of analog popularity. You can't blame the developers for trying to strike while the iron is hot..

ATB

Ian

whyterabbyt wrote:

Neither of those cases is true for a synth developer, so its not realistic to state that they could sell 3 times more products at a cheaper price because supermarkets do)

Actually, your speach is strange. Since you made my mind to do the lower-price thing more than ever. People will return more to the site with lower products. People will purchase more if the prices are low. It happened with me when I lowered by 50% all the prices on my site.

So I don't get your speach...

Anyway, no one is pointed a gun to anyone heads. If you like my idea, you join, if you don't like, you don't join. Simple as that...

The site should be up soon anyway.

Regards, WilliamK

Very interesting thread ... thanks all for the input.

william - i don´t have the real insight to make up my mind really, in this ... but i´m fascinated by your approach. It´s quite a "brave" one me thinks, and indeed there´ll be people and developers disliking that idea.

All i "feel" (instead of real knowing) is that your idea *could* work if some developers would try it and join your idea.... if.
Sure, folks like NI won´t join it, but there are many many other talented developers outthere making their way.

I for think people would probably like this idea if they´d see some good developers offering their plugs.

putte

i don't really know a bit about marketing, but anyway...
could work with a bit of patience and luck.
this psychological thing about believing more expansive gear to be better is a trained habit, it could be changed in the heads of people.

important about that "low-price" website could be that it is really neutral and maybe offers good honest quality reviews about products... ?
not subjective user reviews.

also i wonder... it may be a lame analogy, but if you put out your 2nd record, and it is much better than your first one, because you have spend much more time with it and became a better musician in general... would you charge more for it than for the 1st record?
a dev who brings out a machine that is better than the rest would be rewarded with higher numbers of sales if he keeps the price affordable to the masses.

Coming from the 'Hardware Old Skool' I must admit, no matter how many programmers are hired and sleepless nights lone developers have spent - I just don't look at VSTi's the same way I do a bland real rack or stone wheel wood sided Nord. My price range for ALL personal software is $10 minimum and $200 maximum. And for $200, I better get a baseball hat and a sticker in that gratuitous size box!

If Crystal could find a way to overcome it's CPU usage, I'd pay top price of $25 for it. It sounds simple to me, but no doubt would require Crystal to be rewritten in machine code or something and they'd want to charge $199.99 when all was said and done. But then there's good ol' Synth 1, and that apparently is written in this machine code stuff, and it's free?
So I think this is something that definately has to be dealt with at the drawing board of big software company's right down to lone developers.
Mind you, if something comes out for $19.95 - it shouldn't be a piece of crap compared to a hold out developer/company asking $250.00. A moderate and fair scale is good. Sure, it'll be saturated at first with everyone and their brother trying to get a buck. But in the end we'll be the ones to say 'This is good, and that sucks'. And if the 'suck' company wants to take the gamble spending to revamp their image without passing it on to the customer, God speed to them.

John Westwood wrote:

And for $200, I better get a baseball hat and a sticker in that gratuitous size box!

Fair enought!

Wk

Ok, again, the idea of LowPricePolicy.com is to explain to the user WHY the hell our prices are so low... so they don't expect poor products.

As pointed, BIG companies like NI just won't join this. So this is more for the low/med developers. Not the BIG guys...

Wk

foosnark wrote:

Quote: foosnark: will you buy my VSTi if I price it at $99 ? To be quite honest I haven't even downloaded it yet, because the look of it doesn't say "I put a lot of effort into this" to me. It looks like a SynthEdit creation with a fairly generic skin applied to it -- which doesn't convince me that it has a unique sound or a lot of attention to detail put into it. That's the first impression anyway, fair or unfair as it may be.

Sorry but I have to agree with that too... Tested today ZVX and I must say I expected it to be a lot better. Many free Vsti's out there are miles better (like Vivaldi MX unfortunately R.I.P or Drumatic which is SynthEdit based too) regarding sound quality. The problem with SynthEdit is its sound (pretty cheap) and people really need to be smart synth programmers in order to get away with it and make a SynthEdit synth sound good.

On the other hand you can not expect a monster synth like FM7 which in my opinion is the BEST virtual instrument out there to be priced at a 0-100$ price range. Big soft houses have R&D departments and generally top sound designers and synth programmers that need to get paid good otherwise they will turn back into the hardware companies which pay better. The big names are big names and are forced to overprice.

A Ferrari is not a Ferrari if it is priced at 20000$. These companies have to protect their brands.

I am pretty happy though with mid enterprises like Linplug or Muon Software etc. that price their products for the masses and not for professionals only (although I have seen many big league studios using cracked programs but that is another story).

To cut the long story short if any of us have come out with the Reaktor environment would he charge for it 20 dollars / euros ?

WilliamK quoth Actually, your speach is strange. Since you made my mind to do the lower-price thing more than ever.

I'm not actually trying to put you off y'know. Just make you aware that making something 1/3rd the price does not automatically mean you will sell more than 3 times more...

People will return more to the site with lower products. People will purchase more if the prices are low.

Maybe for something they buy every week, which was my point. But who buys fifteen different two-oscillator analogue-type synths?

It happened with me when I lowered by 50% all the prices on my site.

I actually suspect my 3 points are the reason for that. I personally wouldnt have paid $25 for a single Reaktor ensemble; it exceeded my top limit for that kind of product. With lowered prices, here are maybe half a dozen on your site that I'd consider 'special' enough to pay $10 for. There are a few more at $5 that I dont need, but I might pick up since they're dirt cheap.
(BTW I have actually bought several $10 Dash ensembles, and intend to buy three or four others.)

Anyway, no one is pointed a gun to anyone heads. If you like my idea, you join, if you don't like, you don't join. Simple as that...

Oh Im aware of that. I'd just rather not see people get disillusioned because their dreams of instant wealth aren't fulfilled....

To be honest, at the price point your talking about, I'd rather see some new, interesting and outrageous effects. To me that's where the marketis really bizarre; you think a $150 synth is too expensive? Think about a $150 delay...

You provide somewhere to find effects on the level of SuperCamelPhat, ZaFi, More Feedback Machine et.c at the $10-$30 mark and you got a customer.

The site should be up soon anyway.

I'll definitely look.

Hmmm. Very interesting.

Actually, makes me think more about cheap airlines than supermarkets... Offer a product that once upon a time used to be perceived as, erm, luxurious, at a very low price but without the big brand name frills. I mean, some time ago I wouldn't even think of flying to anywhere in Europe because it was so absurdly expensive. But today flying e.g. Ryanair is actually cheaper than going by train, so they get customers (like me) that they wouldn't have got in the past. The market expands, the profits skyrocket. Allegedly Ryanair could be Europe's largest airline any time soon.

Can that be applied to VSTi's? You would need to offer the same quality as the biggies... (Of course assuming that the biggies actually do offer better quality in addition to their logos...) Or at least the same consumer value... Meaning, you would need to know what the frills are and whether your customers will think they can do without them.

And you'd probably need to sponsor the wheather report on Sky News.

But this is I suppose how low cost VSTi's are functioning already to some extent. And VSTi's in general in comparison to hardware synths.

And remember that the software market is so different from any other because there is always some free software around, and cracks. You can't get your beans for free, and you can't crack a Boeing.

So somebody should finally do some proper market research here PLEASE.

Regards,

Yaras

I would be interested to hear from one of the Ohm Force people, if they are shifting fewer units since the price hike (if they are around.)

Oh yeah, and sign me up to this low price policy thing.

I think this thread makes the most sense.....people like deals, and low prices....hence wal mart type of marketing....just because something is "cheap" in price, DOES NOT mean, its a cheap synth......we all judge anyways by demos and mp3 demos.
I am not impressed with trilogys demos to be honest, but if it was say 150$ I would buy it, just to have THAT many basses at my disposal....so with this theory it would make them ALOT more because people feel good about spending "so little" but getting more....hence more customers!
we all know atmosphere is great, but some of you do not and will NOT ever own it, because of one reason......price.....so this theory again would make them more.
same goes with ST2 about to come out...........I have this bad feeling it is going to be ALOT more than we all imagine......and if that is the case, I will not buy it.
fruity has so many users and so many "cheap" synths, but they are not cheap in quality. I remember I was so excited as first to get the new orion and all that jazz, so I spent the money to get it, (which for some it was not cheap) only to find some of my plugs dont even work in orion, but since it was "cheap" or cheaper than other things, I bought it.

here's my take on the whole issue;

when you buy a VSTi, you are simply paying for the code, there are no user servicable parts ie. resistors, capacitors, PCB's, wood, metal, voltage etc... Therefore this has cut down the development and production times immensly, the manufacturers are making an absolute killing. Take Novation for example, they are going to be charging ridiculous money for a synth which in my opinion, is probably going to be no better than Synth 1 [ which is free ]. the marketing strategies and sheer profit margins these bigger companies undertake disgusts me to say the least.

How many times have you been in a shop and said these words "I'll pay the extra and get the better one" this is the sort of marketing strategies these big companies play on, and most of the dumb public don't seem to realise it.

it's about time these companies opened their eyes and saw what is really going on in the real world, too many expensive software products are pushing piracy up and sales down, this is a sad state of affairs and if any of you think that these companies are aiming their products at the pro market, this is exactly what they want you to believe. I'm a pro user [ as in, this is my profession and sole income ] but products like the Novation V-Station are above my spending threshold when there are other products that will meet the same requirements for a snip of the cost, or even free. I'm very value conscious and would rather spend the extra and get the hardware version.

*Sorry to use Novation as an example here, it was the first company I thought of that holds one of the higher price tags for a product that is not going to be much different to some of the cheaper or free ones.

Whyterabbit....

I liked your argument up until this point...

whyterabbyt wrote:

At the end of the day, what this means is that even if you were to pursuade a whole load of developers to produce cheaper products, people will still look to the more expensive products to fill certain needs. And it doesnt matter how much people define as 'not a lot of money', they always have a cut-off point they can't justify exceeding. One of the other things about this; the cheapest products have a certain level of sameiness. When you want something 'a bit different', you're usually prepared to pay more for it... Developers pitching stuff at a cheaper price point means they probably have to appeal to a broader market as well (in other words, yet another VA clone) because the out-there stuff still isnt going to sell to the masses, no matter how cheap it is.

...but here is where it's off a bit (imo).

Although I agree entirely about people buying different "levels" of products (ie. really good cheese but cheaper beans), I don't agree with what you say above.

The point is that devs lower their prices, so that "the more expensive products" are no longer the more expensive ones and thus the customer will not have to look at more expensive products to fill their needs.

In theory, what this would mean is that when buying cheese, everything is at the same price level, regardless of quality... which of course is ridiculous because it will never happen.

But nevermind, now I understand the point you are trying to make! The thing is that according to this low price policy, the way I understand it, everything should be around the same level. As demonstrated above, that reasoning is flawed though... and I just changed my mind... you're right

here is the "proof" so to speak...........you all remember how a couple of weeks ago when someone posted pro-52 from audiomidi.com was 69$?.....that thread went on 2 pages and I called my sales guy there, russ, and they were sold out.
if trilogy or atmosphere or stylus or kontact, or sampletank XL etc etc etc, said for one month only, our synths are "price" from this site alone, they would see there sales double........me and my friend bought pro-52 for this sole reason alone, and would buy something else if prices were more in our range.
even developers offering options to buy just the new content (le to sampletank l, and now just an engine upgrade to ST2) makes people buy more often and makes us feel we got what we payed for.

all these big music software developers are all small enough so where a big buercracy doesn't get in the way of things too much, and where most people care about what they do, and where people are held responsible. saying this, i think these companies have conceived every plan to maximize revenue and have chosen the optimal price point...

Solaris... if a company puts in the time and effort to develop a product why shouldn't they make money, why do you think they are in the business??? when you buy a cd all you are paying for is the music(well that and case and an insert) when you buy photoshop all you are paying for is the code. why shouldn't a company be able to make a return on their investment. if they are charging too much, they will change their pricing strategies or they won't be in business for too long.

if people are going to flock out and by novation, good for them. its like with clothes, if people are going to spend $1K on a prada handbag when you can get a diesel handbag, or a handbag from the thrift store for that matter, for way way cheaper, who cares. Good for them.

Mighty_Hero, most probably the reason they got a good deal was because they committed to buying out the last remaining stock of Pro 52. What is N.I. going to do with it when Pro 53 needs to be released as it's own entity and not a value negative upgrade?

They got every cent they could from Pro 52, they can afford to drop the price for one big blow out. Guitar Center does a lot of this stuff too. The question is how badly do you want to wait for a bargain and hope you can get it?

Pro 53 should IMO cost less than Pro 52 because like hardware N.I. has leveraged it's labor to a great extent. There was a redesign but the basics were right there plus users of Reaktor also get benifits from the Pro 53 research.

I do agree more money equals better quality in a lot of consumers that aren't particularly worried about spending it. And one reason they do is because they feel comfortable that they will get service when things go wrong or they don't know what they are doing. That gets built into the price so even if you never use service you still pay for it.

If Rene were to suddenly sell 10,000 units he'd be in big trouble. There is a lot of expense moving that much over the internet and having 10,000 users will make it necessary to have support staff and this will cause the prices to go up because it costs money to do business right.

There is always a catch when it comes to the warm and friendly developers we all want to support and the big companies that some of us feel are ripping us off.

I would amazed if you got any reply, other than
yes they are doing great.

the fact that the only time I ever hear about Quad is when anyone asks about filters they reply is either, the buyers are too busy using it and dont tell anyone, or Ohm never sold many yet.

cold c wrote:

I would be interested to hear from one of the Ohm Force people, if they are shifting fewer units since the price hike (if they are around.) Oh yeah, and sign me up to this low price policy thing.

stogie21 wrote:

Do you think that 500 Pentagon I's have been sold?? if so that's about $50,000 before credit card fees. the credit card fees are probably going to be between 1.75%-2.75%, but its still over $48,000. that's some pretty nice pocket change for a company with little or no overhead, advertising costs, workman's comp, and all the other things that go into to most brick and mortor business...

first off, pentagon is a funny example, because I doubt it's a typical VST sales-wise. it's a classic that's almost universally praised, and quite probably still does well years after release.

second, remember that this mythical $50K has been earned over a number of years, and it has to cover all rene's business expenses. unless you're a self employed software developer, you may be seriously underestimating all that that means.

it includes stuff like computers, development software, host software he has to be compatible with (may get some free, not all), internet access, phone, data backup, space to work, promotional costs, accounting, taxes, time off for vacation and health reasons, health insurance (if that applies in france, where I assume rene lives), some kind of retirement planning, yadda yadda. lots of stuff. and he's just one guy; this all gets much more complicated when there are other employees too, a neccessity when the product gets more complicated.

keep in mind too that as developers get older and sprout families, they often have financial concerns outside the business that need to effect their business choices.

discovering the behavior of the price vs number sold curve for a product line is not a trivial thing; it's economics 101, a basic issue any business has to try to figure out, but there's no one answer that applies up front. halving the price doesn't always get you twice the sales, there are many other issues.

With the market for software samplers becoming more saturated every month, shouldn't the prices for those be falling anyway?
When motu release their mach5, and possibly some other hardware manufacturers like akai, we have to see price drops then, and not just because I want to buy kontakt..

of course you have to have a computer, etc, to create a synth, but all these costs involved in the actual creation of the synth are very minor to say the least. you can just pay your part-time emplyees cash, no one is going to know or care for that matter. all the other costs related to the business also appear to be very minor. it would be a very nice part-time or a pretty nice full time job if you are thrifty... I would be happy living on 30K a year while running my own business, well at least I could live nicely for my standards in nebraska for that kind of money

Well, for $350, you could buy Reaktor and have access to all the free synth's you could (possibly?) ever want, and clearly in this case the designer's of those instruments aren't strictly motivated by financial concerns. With the sample playback-type instruments, you're really paying more for the sounds than the instrument itself. I think, like anything else in a free marketplace, the best products will win out, and fetch the price that they deserve. If an instrument is overpriced in relation to how it performs, it really isn't going to succeed, especially given resources like this site. Having demoed about everything I could over the past year or so, my decision on what to buy has become pretty simple: if it makes a rather cynical guy like me smile while I'm playing it, then it's worth the money to invest in it, particualrly when I think how much more it would cost if it was hardware.

Mighty_Hero quoth here is the "proof" so to speak...........you all remember how a couple of weeks ago when someone posted pro-52 from audiomidi.com was 69$?.....that thread went on 2 pages and I called my sales guy there, russ, and they were sold out.

Now that's a slightly different matter; thats a product being discounted. If Pro52 had been $70 all along would it necessarily have sold twice as many copies? (Actually to make the same profit for NI, as a boxed product it would probably have to sell 3 or more times as many copies).

That said, there's probably a psychological barrier at $100. Three digits makes something 'feel' more expensive than $99...

Ohm's in the middle of a big changeover of their selling method, it's not fair to ask them how they're doing until after they've had their shot in retail stores. Of course, perhaps their price hike should be taken as a sign that selling $9 plug-ins is simply no way to keep a business afloat (especially when even those cheap things got cracked).

Willam,

your experience with lowering the prices and increasing sales may work for your specific stuff, but it doesn't have to work generaly. In the beginning we had introductionary prices, but after increasing them to the regular price the sales didn't halve or something like that. They stayed the same.

Another factor you seem to have forgotten are fixed costs per unit, no matter how low/high the price may be. For sales going through shareit.com EACH AND EVERY UNIT SOLD (no matter the price) is costing the seller $2,95.

Costs for selling 100 products: $295
Costs for selling 200 products: $590

The catch is that halving the price does NOT double sales, so you even LOOSE money but have more customers to care for (which is another cost factor).

I think each developer should charge what he thinks his instruments are WORTH.

The recitet Pro-52/53 sell-out is nothing more than the "I will never get it that cheap again so I better buy it now". Heck, even I bought it (for 49 euros from steinberg.de, don't bother: it's sold out already) because you all know that this is not the new price but just some retailers clearing their stock. Pro-52/53 is still $199 and will probably stay there for some time to come.

"If it costs nothing, it is worth nothing" is a sentence stuck in a lot of peoples heads...

Pour the same time, effort and knowledge into a product like NI did for Pro-52/53 and then tell me you want to charge $29,95...

Music-software is a completley different market than your gardening software. EVERYBODY with a computer can run the gardening software, but only the very low percentage having a computer AND are interested in creating music are potentional customers.

If we would create a sample-based instrument, we would charge more, because we have higher developing costs, higher shipping costs (yes, bandwidth costs money as well) and the complexity of such an instrument would be a lot higher than the usual "DCO->DCF->DCA" route which means more work, more graphics etc.

We will continue to charge what we think the products are worth.

Regards,
Mike

Hey, this thread is a bomb :p . I can only read some parts of it...
Thus, we DID have a low price policy (is $9.90 versions low enough for you ? ), so I can give you some facts on it:

If you sell 100 copys at $100, you'll sell 300 at 10, no more, unless you have an efficient marketing service inside your company, where you *may* then reach 700 copys in the same period. Problem is 100 copys of a synth (at $100) rarely happend in a month. It hardly pays for developpment costs and absolutely not for the marketing service yet... (a good syth is at least 6 month dev for one to three persons + graphic design, + sleeve design, documentation, support, web publishing, accounting, communication, advertising, etc.) We are speaking about on line copys here and you may start to understand why off line market is so crucial for any soft company. But off-line market works completely differently (it's only pro and semi pro channels because if you do low price all you need is big distribution and audio plugs are too small for big distribution, so you don't really have a choice) so the price has to fit with the "pro" scale (in which the price is for exemple linked to quality in the consumer's mind, among other considerations - meaning you often sell more by raising the price).

Some side notes:

- every reliable company has big prices. NI, Waves, and even IK Multimedia... There are some reasons.

- having more little customers is harder to handle than a limitated (say 1500) amount of pro customers because of support

- thus said IMO the price policy we had (standard at $10 and expert at $79) was good for a "web sales only" market.

- in any tech product the human costs is the bigger part, even with an hardward synth.

- I hope you realise than from a ten years ago perspective, we already are in an incredible low priced audio world. I mean, how much would have cost and Ohm Boyz in hardware ten years ago? This can't be justified only with the manufcturing costs. Fact is than more and more products are made by very small structure whith small if not no business experience that tends to cut the prices because they're techies and want, as you say, a maximum amount of ppl using their product - generally an objective account is that developper that sells at $30 are largely unreliable.

- BTW, how about free synth ten years ago . Seriously, you should be dancing and laughing all the day ! Apart from the host, you can build a very decent studio for free. The free stuff from now is far better than lots of payware from 5 years ago...

I havn't read through every article, but what Michael and Red_Force say is very true.

Selling professional software at dumping price kills the industry. Resellers run out of biz, magazines suffer from less advertisement. Analogue hardware which currently and for a long time from now is superior to digital implementations (compressors, tubes etc.) sells in less pieces, becomes rare and get even more expensive. Companies like NI suffer from SynthEdit (which by a certain irony is a direct successor to NI's own brain child, Generator)

Talk to hardware geniusses like Jürgen Michaelis and you know what I mean.

My biz becomes more and more professional these days and I have much talk with a lot of people. I'm now convinced that I as a hobby shareware developer who slowly enters the realm of serious software production have a certain kind of responsibility. To the "subject", to my customers as well as to myself.

My software results from years of experience and months of work on each piece of software. This will be reflected in my future pricing.

Better get More Feedback Machine as long as it still costs 20 bucks

Urs

heckmann wrote:

Quote:

Selling professional software at dumping price kills the industry. Resellers run out of biz, magazines suffer from less advertisement. Analogue hardware which currently and for a long time from now is superior to digital implementations (compressors, tubes etc.) sells in less pieces, becomes rare and get even more expensive. Companies like NI suffer from SynthEdit (which by a certain irony is a direct successor to NI's own brain child, Generator)

I like N.I. a lot, support them by buying their products and suggesting them to others. Still, I think it's their job to compete with the bleed-off a program like SynthEdit may create.
And although there are ironies is it so hard to believe other people would be developing or be influenced to write their own projects? To anyone in commercial development that complained about damaging the industry with freeware or shareware I'd say, then create something better, offer more, make your software worth the price you need to sell to make a living.
SynthEdit is very cool but far from Reaktor and most likely one of the only alternatives to people that can afford to build their own synths - which is a pretty small amount of people compared to those who can create sounds.
Like it or not freeware is here to stay unless some luddite government freaks out and passes laws against it.

I'm tired of all those freewares too, it just breaks the market and make developers life hard. Off course musicians like it, cause they never had to work on this. Let's say you have a Job, and one day you get fired, cause someone is doing your work for free? Would you like it? NO!!

NOTHING in life is free. The guy doing the freeware prob has a job or a dad who pay his bills... but it can't last forever. Also, he won't do a good support like a PRO guy would. I know this for Synthedit, is a good program, but full of flaws and is slowly being developed.

Not to mention WAREZ. Now talking about LowPrices. Not all, but most people use copies cause they just can't buy the full program. Here in Brazil, a 500U$ program costs 1.800R$ (the local currency) so is very hard for us. That's why our country (sadly) is the biggest place for piracy on the world. I got my programs registered, but was hard... but when I started making music on the computer, I bought all the cheap programs I could at that time. I even sent U$ trought the mail. I got programs like AXS, SimSynth and others.

Regards, WilliamK

x_bruce,

don't get me wrong. I like freeware, I use some very much and I have nothing against it. I'm involved in freeware projects and won't stop that. - Supposedly everyone can tell what software from NI or comparable innovators offers in terms of quality, reliablility and support.

It is also good to have free stuff like SynthEdit patches in a way. It forces companies like NI to make better products.

But what we have here in this thread is talk about selling such high quality software for 29.90$. This is the point where I wanted to jump in. Sorry if I havn't made that clear enough.

No-one wants to roll back the wheel. But it's important to make concerns clear.

Urs

Thats totaly unfair as what they sold for $9 was not complete
unless im wrong for $9 you got a crippled version. NO midi automation, limited in sound Q, and Quad was never sold for $9 it was $150 right off.

this is the EXACT example of hyped up software prices and im
FED up with it, I own ALL my music software.. sure some came from deserved testing and helping on designs but most of the expensive stuff was payed for by ME.. but no more..

THIS thread has made this clear to me.. NO more am I going to fall into the trap of these HIGH prices for software. REASON is because the bubble is going to burst, there are lots of smaller companys realising that by charging £500 for something you cant touch is crazy and more and more are bringing out GREAT products at a fair price.. MY money is with them.

Ohm Force > Uncle E wrote:

Of course, perhaps their price hike should be taken as a sign that selling $9 plug-ins is simply no way to keep a business afloat (especially when even those cheap things got cracked).

I am completely OK with freeware. It's up to the "pro" developper to do something an hobbyist dev can't, so it's generally better for the overall offer. I believe user should learn to go with freeware instead of warez for two reason:
- they would assume themselves
- often, freeware is just better suited for their needs. The 18th year old dickhead who crack Kontakt should start to learn with a simpler, free sampler. If he appears to be motivated enough t be able to achieve good results with the free stuff, he'll probably become pro for real sooner or later. An then, as he start to be paid for his work, he'll enjoy the pleasure of upgrading his tool with payware...

... well, sometime I am kind of an idealist, I think...

PS: uh, sometime freeware is unsanely good thus. I would hate to have a serious OhmBoyz competitor for free... The idea is that to do such a thing, the authour should spend so much time and know-how the he won't accept to give it for free. So far, so good...

WilliamK, I sympathize about the situation but:

1. HTML used to be so difficult to business that people like me with minimal interest in learning any more than necessary and using programs like NetObjects Fusion could make a comfortable living. When HTML was widely available to learn through books, classes, inexpensive but useful design programs (adaptation) my days of designing sites were gone. If I chose to I could have gotten more technical in an attempt to keep up with the ever diminishing market.

2. A lot of developers should be furious with Glenn for making Crystal. I doubt it though. If anything Glenn could probably have a nice future in programming with one of the larger software companies

3. Music isn't free to make unless you strictly adhere to using your voice and singing in public. Otherwise it costs money for amplification, instruments, the device that allows virtual instruments to work, yet many people have no desire to sell their music. The record industry says it is pirates and 'those people' that cause them loss of sales. Besides being wrong - it's their own companies selling DVDs, video games, product tie in's and accessories such as Walkman. No one will ever convince me that I have to sell my music but if I want to I know there will be a lot of mountains I will have to climb in order to be nominally successful.

Business can be a hardship but you can't say to other developers, 'hey, your product is good, sell it' because they might not want the headache of doing so or may be making it as a form of art.
It can be a hardship to smaller developers but look at your own roots. You were one of the few people to sell Reaktor ensembles. Not a lot of people were or are doing that. It was the leap of faith that you had something better to bring to the Reaktor enthusiast.
As someone entering the VSTi game you are late and there are a lot of other developers that had freeware before you had a commercial synth available.
Also, you can't have it both ways. You can't say, 'sell it inexpensive' while saying, 'but sell it, don't give it away'.
Sadly you live in a country that has terrible inflation and hard times. You are doing something that a person in a more wealthy country might not see as threatening.
It would be interesting to see where most of the free synths are coming from. I'm thinking Germany and The Netherlands.
I wish you the best of luck because I like your products and you are a decent enough person. This isn't mean in a negative way or as a defeating statement. I think you are bright enough to figure out how to make things work but it may take time.

Quote:

I would hate to have a serious OhmBoyz competitor for free...

Sorry. - I don't know OhmBoyz but some people say it has similar concepts as my MFM (what do you think?). Most people use it for free. A dumb mistake on my side, merely a failing experiment.

Urs

topaz wrote:

Thats totaly unfair as what they sold for $9 was not complete unless im wrong for $9 you got a crippled version. NO midi automation, limited in sound Q, and Quad was never sold for $9 it was $150 right off.

Well, at that time 98% of effect plugz had no Midi support (and this is still vastly true). VST automation were working, so apart for directX users, the Midi was here for ppl wth ctroller. If you can pay the market price for a cvontroller, why won't you pay the market price for high end audio effect? That' was the point of this limitation. The quality issue is a bit similar: to hear it you need to have at least a 24bit output I.E. an expansive card for musician. Once again, why would the hardware manufacturer be your only expand post while you rely as at least as much on soft for the final result?
All in all, a goood limitation scheme which has given good results.

About the Quad, its still very cheap compared to the market (what it does - wht else does it)(hum, nothing ? ). There is even a free, unlimited standalone version, that you usually pay for in other products.

WilliamK quoth I'm tired of all those freewares too, it just breaks the market and make developers life hard.

Wait a minute. You're complainging about free software 'breaking the market' whilst attempting to do exactly the same thing by offering cut-price software. Isnt that a touch hypocritical?


Off course musicians like it, cause they never had to work on this.

Incorrect. There is cheap and free stuff out there that I dont use because I prefer a more expensive product more.

Let's say you have a Job, and one day you get fired, cause someone is doing your work for free? Would you like it? NO!!

Whereas its alright if I lose my job because someone is doing it for a third of the wages? Thats ludicrous.

NOTHING in life is free. The guy doing the freeware prob has a job or a dad who pay his bills... but it can't last forever.

Possibly also true for cut-price software. How many of the Dash developers only make synths as the source of all their income?

Also, he won't do a good support like a PRO guy would.

The support for Crystal seems pretty damn good.

I know this for Synthedit, is a good program, but full of flaws and is slowly being developed.

Actually, its not quite fair to criticise an openly beta-level product as 'full of flaws' in this context. I bet Dash's beta-level software is full of flaws as well. And actually, Jeff does a remarkable job of bugfixes and new revisions, and SE is being developed pretty damn quickly. His support is excellent as well.


Wouldny you also say that

Remember one thing. Hardware has a high cost of production. While software has a very low cost of distribution if is on Downloable format.

A Hardware synth, you spent a lof of money on the project, schemes, pannel, etc... for each unit sold, a very high % of the price is to pay the parts.

While on software, you spent money on the production, idea, design. And for each sold, you have no additional costs except the processing fees for the order and the BandWidth for download. Is about 6% of the price.

So software SHOULD be chepear than hardware. So I don't get your point.

Regards, Wk

whyterabbyt wrote:

Isnt that a touch hypocritical?

Not if most people do like I'm doing. And be carefull to call me hypocritical, is a hard word, and I'm offended.

Wk

Red_Force wrote:

.... All in all, a goood limitation scheme which has given good results.....

I like this scheme and wish I had taken more advantage of it. If you get some use out of it for $9, you don't really worry that there is no upgrade path to the higher level more expensive version. Take lunch to work a couple days instead of eating fast food and you have covered the cost of the "trial" version of the plug.

Something I always look at when buying effects now is the availability of both DX and VST versions. I try to get plugs that include both versions. DX works well for me in SoundForge and Acid but it lacks the full MIDI support I want. VST works well in most cases for me in Sonar with a wrapper, but I am never sure when I may hit a problem and need to go back to the DX version.

Robert

WilliamK quoth Not if most people do like I'm doing.

Not really. If you say 'people shouldnt do X because of Y' and then do Z which is something remarkably similar to X, with an effect indistinguishable from Y, then what other people think of Z has no bearing on the matter at all.

And be carefull to call me hypocritical, is a hard word, and I'm offended.

Okay, what other word would you use for someone who says "we should develop and sell cheap software and undercut the market for expensive products but I dont like it that people are undercutting my market by producing free software?"

heckmann wrote:

Sorry. - I don't know OhmBoyz but some people say it has similar concepts as my MFM (what do you think?). Most people use it for free. A dumb mistake on my side, merely a failing experiment. Urs

aRGH
Well, I have to try it to tell. It looks pretty powerful, a mix between the Quad and the Ohm Boyz. At the first glance I feel like the Quad is a far deeper product and the Ohm Boyz a probably more versatile (because of the unlimited LFO, advanced GUI, the preset morphing, LFO on delay period, MIDI integration) but I doubt there would be a way to make a direct comparison and say "this one is better". There will probably be ppl prefearing the MFM (I hope not too much thus )

Well, I'll try it. If it's too good, I'll send you nasty support e-mail so you get fed up with freeware. I has worked very well with the other guy... muhhahaHAHAH

Red_Force wrote:

aRGH Well, I'll try it. If it's too good, I'll send you nasty support e-mail so you get fed up with freeware. I has worked very well with the other guy... muhhahaHAHAH

Hey RF,

I'm just in the situation where I have to implement auto-reply emails by intelligent problem analysis

Yeah, I think MFM is very different from OhmBoyz and Quad. But your plugs can't beat it's versitality (huh? what's this word?) unless you learn to design usable user interfaces

Oh, and as I wrote somewhere else, it's not free and will soon adjust to common market level...

Urs

Red you dont need to defend your price hype here, just carry on with what you think your products are worth and *uck what we all think.

William is just saying that he thinks more would buy software if it where at a keenner price.

it's not ROCKET SCIENCE, it's SIMPLE.. and I am a punter who buys software.. i'm telling you if the hyped prices where Lower there is a VERY good chance I would use those products, but they are not .. so I DONT.


quad=$150 I would only pay $60 max, because quad is $150 I dont use it
result is you DONT get my money.

am I the only who thinks like this ?

gee that makes me unique then eh ?

topaz quoth am I the only who thinks like this ?

Nope. Thats exactly what I said earlier, remember. $150 exceeds the top limit I am willing to pay for a product of that type. $60 would not because of the quality of the product.

Good now I dont feel lonley ; hehehe

again to HIGHLITE.. my setup is the best it ever has been, by not having
the HIGH PRICED plugs is not going to make my music worse, it may sound slightly better if I had it. but my listners are not complaining or saying.. go buy some $200 effex.

there is little room for new kit today in my studio, bt if those $200 fx where $50 I would have them for sure.. my moneyt is waiting.

of coarse I still have to dig them.

hehehe.. do you think maybe this thread has gotten thru to (some) of the devs out there.. I doubt it.

whyterabbyt wrote:

topaz quoth am I the only who thinks like this ? Nope. Thats exactly what I said earlier, remember. $150 exceeds the top limit I am willing to pay for a product of that type. $60 would not because of the quality of the product.

I've read this thread with interest, because I just purchased daAlfa2k from WilliamK. I am not a developer, but my partner is...not audio-related...so I know how much time and effort goes into programming software. I certainly don't expect to get major development efforts for cheap, and I don't expect fabulous customer support for cheap either.

But there truly are relatively poor people out here trying to make music, and I am one of them. After investing my year's worth of "spare change" (there isn't much) on a few expensive products that turned out not to work for me, I'm extremely reluctant to buy anything that costs $100+. I don't care how much it's touted. (Although I did shell out for SampleTank XL. Once I determine it's something I can't live without, I'll come up with the money even if it takes saving up for months.) In part this is because I'm now wary, knowing how easy it is to blow my wad and wanting to be sure I buy things I can actually use (and have the skill and knowledge to use right now--some things I'm waiting on until *I'm* at a level to benefit from having it, or until the bugs are worked out or a feature I need has been added). But in large part it's because I try to get the most bang for what little money I have to spend. Sometimes that means making do with a less sophisticated product.

But there have been two very successful bids for my dollar of late. One was Dash Synthesis' contest: Make a short audio file using only our demos and you could win not only the full versions of the demos but our really super-duper expensive stuff as well! Who could resist? Well, I got frustrated trying to get the job done with the demos, so I bought the one I thought sounded best and I'd be most likely to use. $29.95 (WilliamK's low price idea). For a plugin I wouldn't even have considered buying, because I typically don't do electronic-sounding stuff. And I'm playing with it, learning lots of new things, and expanding how I think about making music! It's been more educational than reading a $29.95 book (to put it in perspective) or taking some course I wouldn't have thought I'd benefit from taking. I probably won't even get the contest submission put together, but I don't care. It was money well spent, and I'm having fun, and I will remember Dash Synthesis later when I have more money to spend. (You're a smart guy, WilliamK.)

The second bid for my dollar was from a very small online company I will not name, but they are in Russia. They ran a "limited time special--up to 50% off" promotion (another excellent marketing tool), and I wanted one thing they had. I would never have bought it at full price because I couldn't really afford it or justify it for my current setup/skill level, but at half price, maybe I could do it. But I wasn't going to have the money until after the promo was over. I emailed them to ask if the promo might be extended for a few weeks, explaining that I'm on low fixed income and had to wait to buy anything until I got my next check. I was floored to receive the plugin I wanted and the registration code that very afternoon as a "gift," along with a very nice correspondence from the developer. I mean, I was on cloud nine for weeks! I couldn't believe they could be so nice. It heartened me that there are still people like this in the world. So I've wound up buying just about everything they make and really talk them up in the forums...because I like them, appreciate them, find their products useful in my DAW, and feel like they deserve to be supported. That one copy--which did not require shipping, packaging, etc.; really was probably no skin off their backs, now that I think about it--bought them more good will and sales (from me and I'll bet from others, too) than they would have gotten had they not done that "crazy" thing. I don't suggest developers do very much of that...but it's something to think about.

The important thing is that the names of these companies are etched in my brain now. When I have an extra bit of money to spend, I'm going to be hitting their web sites to see what they've currently got cooking and if it's something I'm likely to benefit from having. If I have to choose between one of their products and somebody else's, all else being equal, I'm going to buy from them. And, yes, if it's priced low, that's also a factor. If it's priced low enough, maybe I can do it sooner, before I've forgotten all about it, rather than later when something else titillating has come along to seduce me away.

Topaz:

Argh, I remember, we already had this troll on cubase.net. I won't discuss this with you again as if I remember well we went stuck on the concept of "is Topaz representative of the market ?" as you though you were and as I think you are only partially (not marginal, but not the majority)(for what the heck majority may be in the audio users pool). Just let me remind you that if I price the Quad $60, I'll gain you (an others) as a customer and loose some of the high-end pro users, which annoys me not only because as they seem to be as numerous if not more numerous than the hobbiyst that pay-for-what-they-use (=you) it's bad economically but also because I feel like my products are good and I want the best pro to acknowledge it. So even if I am extremely annoyed than regular guys like you or whyterabbyt can't buy the Quad (because we like to say that our tools are designed firstly for musician, not firstly for pro) I have to make some mix. For instance, even if you think that the Quad is expensive (which in a way is true) it's obviously very cheap compared to what a pro would expect to pay for such a product. This is a risk we take by trying to keep a price still in the range of a motivated hobbiyist (BTW, how much would you pay a good FX pedal for your guitar ? Now, is the Quad that expensive for what it does ?)

Heckmann: "But your plugs can't beat it's versitality (huh? what's this word?) unless you learn to design usable user interfaces"
...

Well, he is not alone. Before I was an Developer of VSTs, I was an user of VSTs. And me too found that Quad price was too high. If you say PRO users pay it, good for you. But you are loosing a lof of med-users on the way. IMHO. Please, don't get into the personal level, just saying what I think.

What I would gain with this LowPricePolicy? Not much, since all my competidors would have low price like I do. But that's not what this idea is all about...

Regards, WilliamK

Hey Red_Force,

didn't mean to offend you. Just kiddin'

As I said, I don't know OhmBoyz, hence can't say anything about it except that it's UI (screenshot in last issue of German Keyboards mag) looks a bit confusing to me...

Urs

WilliamK wrote:

While on software, you spent money on the production, idea, design. And for each sold, you have no additional costs except the processing fees for the order and the BandWidth for download. Is about 6% of the price.

Please, where did you get this value? Also when you produce hardware a much bigger ratio of the developing-cost goes to the loan of the developer and other fixed cost like rent etc.. It's really a problem for software developer, that the people don't see how many they pay for the software/developing time inside a hardware-synth when they buy one instead of believing that the price is only before the hardware itself. I'm sure that if people would be aware of the prices that the hardware-developers pay for the production of the hardware and compare this with the street-prices, they would understand that the VSTi prices of big companies are not to high (or they would think, that the hardware-producers try to rip them off too ).

I got my Bass Pod for £160/$260 this is something I use daily on every session, I can take it out on gigs, and use it for recording.. that answers that question Red.

and I find it funny you say im not in the Majority of the market

(you should see my setup, I like to think I am respected in what I do and
know in this field, after all I have been asked to test and develop LOTS of products out there.. (I could send you a list it's fairly impressive)

infact the very guys you work for and with sometimes I helped out a fair amount testing there early products.


but hey,.., there you go .. you admit Quad is expensive and this is the EXACT point of this thread.. not a trol . the truth.

Red_Force wrote:

Topaz: Argh, I remember, we already had this troll on cubase.net. I won't discuss this with you again as if I remember well we went stuck on the concept of "is Topaz repres