I am wondering about this thing... Is this Cakewalk's answer to the increasing popularity of Synapse ORION? Or is it gonna be something different? Does anyone have it, and if so, what is your impression? I will try a demo if there is one (duh, I haven't checked yet ) but I am curious what others think - especially reg'd users who have had a chance to save their work and maybe complete an idea or two. Is this a copy, or a new approach... or kind of both!?

from the page: "Imagine a complete software synthesizer workstation that places no limits on your music. A flexible, expandable studio environment that engages your creativity, inspiring new musical ideas through its seamless integration of instruments and tools."

I have. And so I bought ORION...

I think Project5's main competitior is Reason.

I think Project5 is going to be 80% Reason, 10% FruityLoops and 10% Orion.

We will see though won't we

You could be right NEA...
I think of ORION because the flexibility issue, I guess. The fact that it will accept VST and DX. with rewire, though...hmmm.

No demo. Rats!

I own both SONAR and Orion Pro. Months ago I went on a campaign to ask Rich to make it into a VSTi/DXi or at least to make a lite version of it that is, a la Fruity 3.5.x+. The Orion users on the user forums seemed to rally to the cause that they did not want, or see the need for this, as they prefer to see OPro as its own environment. I am a SONAR user first and foremost. I rarely use Orion anymore these days, but I sure would if I could open it up in SONAR. I went for Project 5 because it offers everything I want, and using rewire, I can get all of its features inside SONAR. Personally, I would still like to see Orion capable of this, either as a VSTi/DXi, or by rewire. IMHO, for it to be considered seriously as a competitor to Project 5, it needs to do this. Otherwise Fruity, Ableton, Reason, and now Project 5 will continue to grab this segment of the market.

regards,

Redox

I don't see how its going to offer anything different. If you already have a load of good VSTis, then you need a quality host, and Orion lacks many features that I find important in a host.
If you're new to the game then any of these programs might be good investments, but then there's loads of great free VSTs available, so maybe spend the money on a better host.
As far as I can see, Tracktion is the way forward, and that costs £50.

From what I understood when I read the ads and such, it can be used as a complete prog when linked up with rewire or if you have sonar, you can just call up the individual instruments. That's something I can't do with reason. I should get my copy soon, and I'll post a review. Oh yeah, Sonar is my host of choice, I just hope that the up the ppqn again at some point.

If you are looking for a standalone enviro for VSTi, I can't disagree. It would all come down to personal preference. Everybody has their personal choices which is great.
But if you want to use it within your existing environment, the Project 5 offers many significant advantages to anything else, IMO. (Again, my choice..others may disagree). MIDI groove clips & looping, AUDIO groove clips/acid looping, VST,DX, VSTi, DXi, MFX and rewire support and great synths. To me, at least I can't see how Project 5 offers "nothing different". It is totally different than anything else in its scope as both a host and a slave.

regards,

Redox

...sorry, context of my last post was reply to Chagzuki..

regards,

Redox

kryos wrote:

Does anyone have it, and if so, what is your impression?

I don't think anyone has P5 in their possession yet. Even though the cake site says it's available, no one is claiming to be using it -- yet.

So, project 5 is not meant to be a standalone solution? I am curious about the way that everything is compatible with everything else lately (almost) through either rewire, dxi, or vst. It is pretty amazing actually . One thing though... I am getting the impression that you who have replied don't really believe that ORION is up to snuff..? I am wondering (if I am right) what you see as the main weakness that sets it apart from the others? Orion offers rewire, dxi, vsti, groove template, beat slicing and mapping, a truly excelent and intuitive native sampler format that accepts akai, sf2, wav, aiff, and on and on... And I am not saying that anyone is wrong, I really want to know. The reason being, is I seem to have a terrible time finishing songs in ORION. I am not at all new to electro, I have been doing it for about 15 years in one form or another, but for some reason the program that appears to me to be one of the best and most intuitive environments around is also the one in which I have yet to complete a second song! Even ComputerMuzys... I composed something quite passable in the course of learning how to use it (more curiosity than anything...) But anyway, jeez, I ramble on! What I wanted to ask as well was will project 5 offer something more, as an environment unto itself?
Chrz!

There's nothing wrong with Orion...as I said I own it. But I use SONAR all the time, and Orion very little these days. Project 5 is also standalone, and I am sure a lot of users will use it that way, much as many Fruity and Reason users, and all Orion users do. In this regard if Orion works for you, I wouldn't see a big reason to use something else, unless it offered a killer feature that you have to have. Many people feel this way about the Reason synths for example.
One major difference IMO, between sequencers like SONAR, Cubase and Logic with Orion, Fruity and Reason is that they are linear versus pattern based, and easily allow recording and integration of audio with MIDI tracks. Fruity, Reason, and now Project 5 can help to bridge the gap between the two types of sequencer, by bringing pattern based sequencing and song structure into a traditional linear environment. (I know this is a simplistic comparison for illustration from my point of view, so please don't flame me!)
So far Orion doesn't offer this possibility. If you work the way Orion does, and are comfortable doing audio recording in Cooledit or whatever else you use, it's not a big deal, however. (BTW Project 5 doesn't have audio recording either.)
I guess to clarify, I love Orion for what it does. I love SONAR for what it does. If Orion could act as a VSTi/DXi I very likely would have the perfect solution for the way I work, and (maybe) would not have ordered Project 5 from Cake.

regards,

Redox

I've used Orion for ages and it just doesn't do it for me as a host. It's simply that it's not refined - there aren't enough logical quick access commands, plus the mixer routing is not flexible enough, the playlist is crude and the audio handling couldn't be more basic. I suppose using Energy XT could solve all the routing problems, but that would bypass Orions native sidechain function.
The generators are great. I love the sampler. I've been using Jescola XS-1 recently for soundfonts because I'm working outside of Orion and its great, but there's no start position control! I can't give my soundfonts sharper attack like with the Orion sampler. . . there's always some pissy little niggle that makes things awkward. So maybe I'll have to get that new soundfont player that's based on Orion's sampler ($99!).
I think that Synapse have taken on board too much - what I think you get with Orion is a mediocre host with good instruments that's good value for money, but the instruments can't be used by another host- there's no upgrade path. If Orion could be a rewire slave or a VSTi, then those of us who like the instruments but don't want to work in the Orion environment could mix and match as desired. As it is, I'm looking for replacements for Orion's generators.

2 years ago, Orion was looking great, but competition has really stepped up.
Synapse concentrated on Platinum, a complete solution, i.e. having everything a beginner would need to make quality music, including sample library and presets, and advanced editing features and the interface and overall functionality was second priority. This didn't suit me at all.
The wealth of quality free instuments and samples devalues what comes with Orion Plat. I've had no use for its drum kits or synth presets.

Tracktion is focussed 100% on user interface.

Tracktion + Ambience, Drumatic, all the CM plugins, Iblit, Triangle2 etc., will cost £55.
That is awesome value for money.

In terms of finishing songs in Orion, having the new bus system improves things massively, but its not enough for me. I find that I'm nearly there with a track, but there's one crucial tweak involving routing that I can't achieve. It's very frustating. Also, the automation is very cumbersome, and that alone forces me to take stuff out of Orion into something with better handling.

I just looked at the Dyad DXi soundfont player and they've replaced the start position dial with pan! Aargh.

Start pos replaced with pan??? jeez that's dumb.

As far as the new bus system in o-platinum, yeah it has improved it a lot. But I never use presets, so the rest of it was just packaging more or less. Well, sometimes I use the 808 presets for Drums, just to feel out an idea. Nice and thick.
I guess my issue is that I really love working in the soft-studio environment. When I started out in music I used the qx21 by Yamaha-ha-ha for all my sequencing needs. When I moved to C-Lab's Creator, I thought I had died and gone to heaven. In my opinion, Creator was absolute perfection. Now, with ORION, it is almost the same - ie; patterns, in which every instrument or track can have a different loop point and it all still fits together;- as far as sequencing anyway. The difference is I don't have to worry about the heaps of humming boxes and keyboards, snake pit nightmares made of patch cords, aligator clips and electical tape keeping certain things alive well past their "due date"... it is like having the whole setup stuffed into my PC, with everything working perfectly. And yet; something is missing. And I am not speaking of Hardware, with a capital H, that is what they make controllers for- I don't miss it. I am looking for Creator with VSTi's... Logic isn't it, even though it is the same guys.
Then again, nothing will replace talent, something that I used to rely on in the days of the Yamaha TX16w Do you think that maybe the huge number of options available to us all might breed lazyness in people who are prone to it? Or did C-lab offer something that isn't available anymore?
K

Edit: One hardware thingy that I had more recently, I am starting to miss quite badly; Yamaha SU700. If you have one, you know why I miss it

I know what you mean. Over the last few years, there's constantly been technical problems involved in making music, and one by one I've got past them. My PC is decent, I've got most of the software I need; I've got no excuse for not making good music, and yet I'm frequently looking for reasons to avoid working on certain compositions. I'm certainly not loving the whole process. Music in general has lost a lot of interest for me. . . always the question of what to do next, where to go next. How to find new interest.

Just to ask Redox - have you tried this 'ReWire' of Orions in the Inst. List?
I have the Platinum, and had started with Pro. The 'entry deal' was so sweet at the time for Platinum, I couldn't resist! But it seems like it's got all that you stated earlier here. I know what you mean about the synths and drums - rather 'euro' sounding? I've got so much else in Orion now - VST/DXi wise I rarely use the 'supplied synths'. Though Ultran and Wasp always come into one of my mixes for an intro, or solo, or break, or...

And if Orion can get 'Audio Recording' soon? Holy Snap! (for me atleast.) How can I go elsewhere when Orions THIS CLOSE to me.

John:
Orion is a Rewire host, just as SONAR is. If Rich provided either rewire client/slave support, or ability to be hosted as a VSTi/DXi, Orion could literally be a world within a world. Your post seems to be selling the merits of Orion, which I don't disagree with at all. I love Orion, but don't necessarily work the same way it does. I have Orion Pro and a couple of Synapse soft synths.. I never went for platinum.

regards,

Redox

Good to know Redox. I'm constantly learning. Orion for me just fits me like a glove. I respect that you like Sonar more, and no doubt for the same reason? I've tried other things like Muzy's and others, and Orion is just so 'me'.

But cool if Sonar is so 'you' too. (No, not U2 - you know what I mean! )

project 5 is a little late IMO...

I dont think itll get anywhere unless it is truly unique and powerful.

ya, that's kind of what I was thinking. But, I do hope that is DOES have something unique to offer. I wish there was a demo
As for O-pro; Definately was, and in many ways still is groundbreaking stuff IMHO. I do still love it, and even if I don't end up finishing my tracks there, I almost exclusively open it up first to bang out an Idea. And, Redox, I see what you mean about the slave/host thing. It would be damn cool to be able to move Orion around with me as I move through different environs. Maybe someday?
k r y o s

chagzuki wrote:

I've used Orion for ages and it just doesn't do it for me as a host. It's simply that it's not refined - there aren't enough logical quick access commands

Nothing in ORION is more than two mouse-clicks away so I don't understand what you mean. And your assertion that ORION is ok if "you are just starting out" is insulting and laughable. I released two albums using only hardware with about 10% of the features that I have access to in ORION. Whenever I read krap like this it makes me laugh. How did we ever make music before Pentium IV's!?!

just what I was wondering aloud when I asked if we are made lazy by all these options.
Bones- did ya ever use a Yamaha TX16W with a QX21 as your sequencer? I did, and lived to tell the tale
Seriously, folks. I understand the endless excitement over music tech, and I too have become power mad at every new aquisition. But Orion Platinum IS a professional piece of gear, whether you use it or something else. And the ability to use hundreds of plug in instruments, fx, and other apps fully integrated into it makes people like me feel like GOD, compared to the gerry rigged heap of buzzing electronics I used to love using.

I'm also a happy user of Orion Platinum, which I use more and more just because it's easy to get ideas working. I also would like to see some improvements on the playlist but I've seen images of some improvements for the next version which I love. Moreover Orion is the fast evolving virtual studio on the market (well, probably Orion and Fruity which already deserves to be considered a virtual studio).

I find a lot of fun on the criticisms to Orion and I don't see anyone making such criticisms on Reason, that could make think that Reason is perfect and every Reason user seems delighted of not having access to any VST or DX extra synth or effect or not having MIDI out.

Someone said on that thread that Project5 is more simular to Reason than to Orion. Why? Reason is visually contrained to a rack mount unit, Prj5 and Orion aren't. Reason is closed to VST and DX standards, Prj5 and Orion aren't. Reason doesn't have midi out, Prj5 (not sure) and Orion does. Of course there are more features, those are just a couple of examples but if we go on we'll see more similarities between Prj5 and Orion than between Prj5 and Reason. Well, just some opinions

I said that Pj5 probably was aimed at the reason market. It's in the same price range and both are considered 'pro'. It will take some time before Orion and Fruity will lose the 'toy' stamp.

Ah! It's true, maybe OrionPlat and Fruity4 should increase their prices to 500$ or more to start not being considered toys ...

Probably It will be interesting to see how the future of Tracktion will evolve. It's not a pattern based sequencer and it has some impressive functions.

It competes withh the big ones like Cubase and Sonar. Maybe he should take 400$ for it

Yeah, I know Orion can do awesome things, and compared to the hardware . . blah, blah.
I don't dispute that it is an extremely powerful tool. I'm just mentioning areas where I find it falls short compared to other hosts. Its very much about what style of music you make.