as in tuning tables, scala, etc ???

sluggo

Sounds like you're referring to tunings of the notes you play. Not everyone uses the same 12 note scales of the western world. America seems to be A=440 whereas some of Europe is A=442? It's been awhile. Someone please prove me wrong here. Middle eastern and far east instruments have a different tuning system I know that....

Devon

Basically, it's all about the interval between the notes. The intervals that we use today (the 12 tone equal tempered system) is a compromise.
Microtuning is usually used to mimic the tuning systems of times gone by. Older tuning systems placed emphasis on harmonic purity. The drawback to these tuning systems is that there will almost always be a note (the 'wolf') which doesn't sound quite in tune. The equal tempered system we use today strikes a compromise so there is still reasonable harmonic purity, but no wolf notes.

http://www.justintonation.net/ should give you some more information

Cron was was mostly talking about the tuning of pitches in 12-tone systems (which standard piano keyboards and guitar frets are designed to use).

"Microtuning" refers to the use of additional pitches "between the cracks".

Although standard western tuning sytems divide the octave into 12 pitches,
there are other tuning systems which divide into more pitches.

The late American composer Harry Partch used a tuning system of his own
design which divded the octave into 43 notes.

For example, if you were building an instrument of your own design,
you could add "extra" keys between C and C# which would play
pitches which are between C and C#.

The interval between two 12-tone pitches (a minor 2nd or halfstep) is
divided into 100 "cents".

You could have additional keys which played the notes at 25 cents, 50 cents, 75 cents, and so on.

To the average western listener, these pitches would sound "out of tune",
but that is only because they are accustomed to listening to 12-tone
tuning systems.


Here are some links:

http://sonic-arts.org/dict/cents.htm

http://www.panix.com/~ro/tuning/tuning.html

In this area are a few different terms. Micro tuning tends to refer to different divisions of the octave as discussed. Just Intonation is where notes are tuned to mathematical ratios of the octave. There are other systems as well. I like to think of the whole topic as alternate tuning.

Basically, in western music we have one "rule". The octave is evenly divided into 12 pitches. This is the way all modern fixed pitch instruments are tuned. Alternate tuning explores other posibilities to this rule. Synths are great for this because they can be easily retuned to different intervales, if the feature is present.

Are there any VST plugins that can intercept an equal-tempered midi stream and retune the output (say, in Chainer using a VSTi) to just intonation?

dkistner wrote:

Are there any VST plugins that can intercept an equal-tempered midi stream and retune the output (say, in Chainer using a VSTi) to just intonation?

Well, Cubase has a built-in MIDI plug to do that. Otherwise, I don't know of a VST plug, but there are a few standalone programs that can retune MIDI input to a tuning of your choice on the fly, and can also convert MIDI files to different tunings. Two such programs are Fractal Tune Smithy and Scala.
FTS:
http://tunesmithy.co.uk/
Scala:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/

The main problem with retuning MIDI has to do with the MIDI spec itself -- it's 12EDO by default and there's no note-specific pitchbend command; pitch bends will affect every note on a given channel. The programs I mentioned get around this by dynamically rechanneling MIDI data as necessary. I have a hunch that this might be messy in a VST environment, but maybe someone's done it...

Folks,

You are aware of Tobybear's microtuner right? Check out the TB forum if not. I'm not sure which hosts it works in. Personally I'm waiting for an update to EnergyXT so I can use it in there.

"MicroTuner
A revolutionary little plugin: this allows you to add microtuning capabilities to every VSTi and external synthesizer!!! I am not talking about tuning some cents up or down, no, you can set any frequency for any key of the keyboard separately! At the moment, this works via import of Scala, VAZ and Anamark tuning files, an internal scale edit option will be added later! "

Steve T

Thanks, Peel. I opted for the combined installer for FTS and Scala (www.harmony-central.com/Software/Windows/fractal.html) and will explore this more.

The Just Intonation Network looks like a fabulous resource. Its explanations for why certain notes were once considered dissonant sure beats what I got from the standard music theory stuff. I mean, unlike what I was taught, there was a reason and it wasn't just because the ears of the time were less able to appreciate them (and we're oh so much more sophisticated now, you know).

The Roland U-20 had capabilities of microtuning, and I remember making a 24-tone scale over a 12 tone scale.
It sounded horrible, and I really wonder who in the western world can get anything positive out of listening to things like this.
I can understand though how you can make a very authentic sounding outoftune-piano with a normal 12-tone scale where each tone is a bit out of tune. But hmmm... won´t alot of these exotic microtunings just sound odd to most people..?

Microtuning expands the sonic possibilities ...
I must say, I don't use Equal Temp most of the time !!!!!
And I like " odd " sounds soo ...

move the pitch wheel while playing a note .. you will hear an endless amount of pitches within an octave.. voila .. the microtones

escaping the basic foundation of most Western music styles can be done by using polyrhythmic and micro tonality and various other tools
like fibonaci rhythm and stuff like that. I find using ancient scales in a modern western production technique fun. In rhythm I am pretty much
used to steady 4 on the floor measures or some others like 7/8 en 3/4 so using more complex African rhythm structures grows a bit over my
head and so do some advanced scales .... I don't stand close enough to them .. but I do stand close to the pitch glides blues singers use
I do use microtones Micro tonality is such fun ... there are a whole bunch of ancient scales out there that are very interesting to play with like the Rajasthan folk scale from India or the Persian Tar scale or the japanese Koto scale or the Gamalon from Bali ... then there's fractal music.

Excellent times for curious musicians to live in.

Remco

Steve T wrote:

Folks, You are aware of Tobybear's microtuner right? Check out the TB forum if not. I'm not sure which hosts it works in. Personally I'm waiting for an update to EnergyXT so I can use it in there.

Steve, I just downloaded Microtuner. It's really neat! Unfortunately, it craps out Chainer, so I'll have to explore this more. It may be something, in my initial dumbness, that I'm doing wrong.

What host do you use it in, and how do you use it? Can you give me an example of how? Not the loading of scales into Microtuner, just the getting it to work with VSTis. I want to midi into my host from my scoring program via a virtual midi router, then have it work in my host. I'll also check out the forum as you suggest.

Brave New World!

Hi Diane,

I think the hosts you can use this in are limited. Cubase SX (?), Plogue Bidule (free so might be worth a download). I'm hoping to use it in EnergyXT, which is a Chainer-ish program (I also have Chainer) so you could use EnergyXT inside Chainer. Doesn't work in EnergyXT yet but Jorgen is going to add that it in soon I think - watch this space. I don't know if there are any other hosts? Anyone?

I didn't try it in Chainer, but I wouldn't expect it to work because MicroTuner needs a midi out rather than an audio out.

Steve T

Thanks for mentioning Tobybear's microtuner; I wasn't aware of it. I'm having trouble figuring out how to get it to work in Cubase, but I'll ask around in the Tobybear forum.

Diane (or anyone):
There is actually quite a bit on the net about microtonal music. A few resources that deserve special mention IMHO: (other than the JI Network):

Tuning mailing list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tuning/
This can be pretty heavy, but the archives hold a lot of stuff that simply is not anywhere else, on the 'net or in print. (There are also two offshoot groups which are less theory-oriented: Metatuning and MakeMicroMusic. Unfortunately, they don't get much topical traffic)

History of Tuning:
http://www.billbremmer.com/HistofTuning.html
Among the many introductory histories of tuning around on the net, I really like this one because it is both interesting and concise, and avoids many of the widely-believed-but-not-quite-true dogmas that are repeated in most histories.

World Scale Depository
http://www.anaphoria.com/depos.html
Maybe not as comprehensive as the name may imply, but what's there is good.

Introduction to Historical Tunings by Kyle Gann
http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/histune.html
A good basic intro to tuning in modern-era Western music, from Gann's strongly pro-JI point of view.

Steve, Peel, thanks very much for the info and links. It's so nice to have one's interest in something piqued when it generally starts to flag.

I looked into EnergyXT today briefly, and it appears that it's not going to work for my purposes at this point because of the midi thing. What would be divine is if Microtuner would work as a standalone between my scoring program and Chainer. (Tobybear, hint, hint, hint.) So I could just route my midi through it and on into Chainer.

Seems I looked at Bidule at one point, but I need to download it again and look at it again with this new need of mine in mind.

Thanks, guys.

Yeah, some really useful links and stuff in this thread - thanks folks - time to do some research.

Quick point re EnergyXT - a standalone / multi-in / multi-out version with support for Tobybear plugs should be out within a few weeks, (uh...I think)

Steve T

For some reason, I didn't get a notification of your reply, Peel, so I'm just now getting this information. Thank you very much!

I was searching for this thread, because I've purchased Fractal Tune Smithy and have joined the Just Intonation Network and am now digesting the Just Intonation Primer. I am very interested in all of this!

I've been having some fascinating private email conversations with Robert Walker, developer of Fractal Tune Smithy, and have suggested some ways to him of enhancing the user interface so that newbies aren't so daunted by its complexity.

One of the things I'd suggested is that he bundle some off-the-shelf midi relay (.rly) files with it that would allow users who are just coming into this to pick a setup that's close to what they're going to need for various uses so they don't have to completely understand every single little setting before they can start playing. He asked me for some ideas, so I said I'd post the question here and send him the link to the thread so he can get the input. We might even be able to entice him into our discussions, from a program development standpoint but also alternate tuning discussions in general. He's got a lot to offer those of us who are exploring alternate tunings.

So, can some of you post the types of setups you have for midi relaying?

Also, I'm wondering if you have some preferred VSTis for use in alternate tuning work. I use SampleTank and Jeskola XS-1 mostly (in Chainer), and in initial tests they both seem to be retuning the relayed midi stream. I'm not sure how accurately they are doing it, however. Does anyone know? Also, would using a tuning table affect how well a particular plugin retunes?

afair orion platinum can load and play in microtones. internal generators
only at the moment i think.

Just to follow-up on this one : latest public beta of EnergyXT supports midi in > midi out plugs e.g. TobyBear's.

btw have been checking out Harry Partch - great stuff

Steve T

jbum wrote:

To the average western listener, these pitches would sound "out of tune",

No kidding. Listen to this guy.

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/140/tuning_lab.html

(I seem to recall a collective of alternate-tuning guys on mp3.com but I can't find them anymore.)

V.

Steve -- Harry Partch was everything a musician should be! Although I do tend to find his music a bit... difficult

Hi, Diane. Actually, I can't be too much help regarding FTS as I haven't used it much -- I recommended it because it now seems to be the most widely used relayer, judging from the discussions on the tuning lists I'm on. I used to use a windows program called "MIDI Relay" which worked *fairly* well (seemed to have a little too much lag in the retuning), as well as the built-in relayer in Scala. Other than my May contest entry, I haven't done any microtonal stuff in a while, and the tuning for the contest entry was already worked out, so I didn't need to do any on-the-fly retuning for testing (I used five instances of FM7, one for each octave since the tuning spanned five octaves and FM7 only supports 12-note retuning -- yeah, I guess it would have been easier to do it on the fly ).
Next time I need MIDI relaying, I'm going to use Tobybear's microtuner. For the brief period I've tried it out, it seemed to work fine. But now that z3ta+ supports scala files, I can use that if there are any problems (Rhino and a few others also support scala files). And of course many synths (like FM7), as well as Cubase's built-in microtuner, have more limited support of microtuning which might be sufficient.
I can't speak for the accuracy of tuning in particular VSTi's, but the MIDI standard supports a resolution of a bit over 0.01 cents -- unfortunately most instruments do not take full advantage of this, and only support a resolution of about 1.5 cents. IMHO, that's still good enough for most stuff. So any instrument that is MIDI-compatible, accepts pitch bend messages, and responds quickly enough to input, can be expected to be accurate to within that ~1.5 cent figure.
As for tuning tables, I'm not sure how they are implemented in particular synths. But a MIDI relayer will work on the assumption that it's retuning from 12-TET (standard 12-tone equal temperament). If the synth has its own tuning table and is trying to retune as well, then your tuning will be off by that much.
Sorry that wasn't too helpful

Peel wrote:

Sorry that wasn't too helpful

On the contrary, Peel, that was very helpful!

Btw, we dropped our impossibly buggy broadband service on Sunday and are trying to come up with a horse-and-buggy solution. (Nobody seems to care about establishing high-speed service in our area, which is rural.) I've been surprised at how fast NetZero is for email and browsing, but I don't think I'll be doing nearly the number of downloads I used to do. I forgot how incredibly slow 56kbps dial-up downloads/uploads are!

Anyway, that's why I didn't respond earlier. Thanks for the good info!