not many posts from me lately but here is a little
advice for any testers out there.

it seems that for some companys the whole beta test nfr thing has changed somewhat.

this is the 2nd time I have been asked to buy the final release after many hours of heavy testing, or been denied update versions.

example:

"I'm sorry but not all of our NFR's are getting an automatic update"

"thanks for all your help testing "" "" you can purchase the full copy at "" "" .

my advice is ask what there policy is before testing, it seems some devs want the much needed help and ideas for nothing.

Hi Topaz....long time no see

ahh Alex -)

hi man.. glad you read this post.

Alex wrote:

Hi Topaz....long time no see

hmmm, I read this as well.........will keep that in mind when I test
thanks matt!

just ask this

1.will I get a full version for taking my time to test.
2.will I be treated like a paying customer and get free updates.

Mighty_Hero wrote:

hmmm, I read this as well.........will keep that in mind when I test thanks matt!

Hey Topaz, what does NFR stand for?!?! I'm sure after you reply I'm gonna slap myself silly, but then again I've never beta tested either!!!

You know, for a lot of people there's enough reward in just getting to be amongst the first ones to play with new, unreleased software. No one would probably have problems with the new/current policies if beta testers hadn't been awarded to begin with.

Think about PC games for example, thousands of people sign up for betas and expect nothing in return. I don't see what makes testing other software any different, apart from perhaps smaller target groups.

edit: I don't know what NFR means either, so maybe I'm missing something important here.

I have to say, i have been lucky enough so far to have got the full commercial product after testing from all the companies i have tested for.....so far.

yeah that has happened to me also.. i do not like to test plugs for that reason. but i will do sound/patch design even tho i don't get a full version..

yeah well
i also must add that some people (including me) test something out ... but not to the fullest
i for one once joined in a beta testing program for kantos .... i didn`t realy test out all the feateres
because i had no time and after that i gave them a report like this and this and that works
i think when someone build a program he should only give it if your help is realy usefull !
sometimes i realy crave for more time to test stuff out ....
what developers like to know :

a : what is your system (operating system / internal mem. cpu (not only speed) / sometime accessibility speed of hd)
b : what is your vsti host (with some info on what plugins it supports)
c : how does the tool react to comments such as midi in your host

but the most important ..... every step in your testing program .. thats including setting up channels ... adressing cc`s etcetera
and then its important to know what you will use it for.
then again its fun to try tools and give advices on improvement
i mean you don`t go to a cardealer for a test trip to get the car for free

doing tests / making music / making love / making money / making friends / making sculptures / making paintings / making poems
time oh bloody time .... give us more of it

facingdoubt wrote:

Hey Topaz, what does NFR stand for?!?! I'm sure after you reply I'm gonna slap myself silly, but then again I've never beta tested either!!!

Not Topaz,but I'll answer anyways.NFR=Not For Release.
ew

boman, I told you what this meant in our computer music classes

Emerald Tablet wrote:

i mean you don`t go to a cardealer for a test trip to get the car for free

yes you dont.. but this is flawed in that the cars at the dealership are complete, working, finished items..

the cars at the Q/A division (or the proving grounds) are the equivilent of what one recieves in an Alpha/Beta test... unfinished, 'buggy' objects...


if you're in the mindset that (and this is your main goal) you're the first to try it out.. then you're already in the wrong state of mind to be properly beta testing a product.

I think its reasonable to be paid for proper beta testing with a full copy of said product..

Real beta testing is a job.. not necessarily a reward.. in some places beta/QA is an actual job (even in the video games market) where there is a salary etc..

It can be a lot of hard work.. searching every peice of some software.. trying out every imaginable (and many unusual / normally not used) ways of using the software to check its stability/functionability.. etc

i know ...
the point I'm trying to get across is.
only the people who do the hard work should be rewarded

the comparison was a joke ... o.c. i know its a ridiculous metaphor

coffffeeeeeeee pleeeaaaasssee

man .. this phone is bloody annoying

fuck the helpdesk

vitamin makes some great points, but for me, the beta testing is the FUN for me.
as facingdoubt and others who know me, can tell you, I can afford ANY plug and or effect.........I like to TEST synths or plugs, because for me........I helped out in some way.
I am the one who starts threads for patches, or reminders, or computer help (for free I might have you know), for solutions (we call these "workarounds" )
I am wanting to test more, not to review or get things for free, or whatever other people might think..........I beta'ed a synth one time, and it crashed my whole pc (no names needed to be mentioned).........but when I found the problem, I felt happy!
so currently, I would like to TEST st2, Ben's new synth, and perhaps any new (as we all know the same ol same ol) revolutionary new synth/effect

so matt, these are great points you make, because for me, when helga goes "public" I still have to buy it, and I am making patches as I type this........free is one thing, love is one thing, challenges are ANOTHER

oh ... and i would love to test some Ferrari's and camaros
as long as the aesthetic part is out of beta
i have no problem to park them all in front of my department

then again .. i would rather drive a MG or Morgan myself .... more style
but i guess all there cars are out of the beta testing program by far

VitaminD wrote:

if you're in the mindset that (and this is your main goal) you're the first to try it out.. then you're already in the wrong state of mind to be properly beta testing a product.

I don't see the mindset that you're only doing it so you get the instrument for free in the end being much better.

Quote:

Real beta testing is a job.. not necessarily a reward.. in some places beta/QA is an actual job (even in the video games market) where there is a salary etc.. It can be a lot of hard work.. searching every peice of some software.. trying out every imaginable (and many unusual / normally not used) ways of using the software to check its stability/functionability.. etc

Yeah, and for a job you sign a contract beforehand, where your salary etc is determined. At that point you can decide to bail out or take the job, it's entirely up to you. There's no point in bitching afterwards if you didn't find out what you were getting into beforehand. Yes, it's "reasonable" to get the product for free in the end, but if that hasn't been promised beforehand, one really shouldn't be that surprised/irritated/outraged if it doesn't happen.

Its a fair warning from Topaz that the 'rules' may be changing among audio developers if its been the case that there was normally a reward of a free copy at the end of the day.
However that's never necessarily been the case across the rest of the software industry, so an expectation of that is probably a bit naive...

true and not true PU
if persing wanted me to test some new brand new synth/effect or whatever, I would do it for FREE, (sign the NDA and not talk about it).....because for me, I guess, I like to know I HELPED make a product what it is!
I would more than likely buy it anyways, had I NOT tested it, based on company merits, word of mouth, etc etc
I think now a days, it doesn't matter if you have an MCSE, or years on computers, or if you are a "great" musician..........I have (and I swear) listened to the demos of trilogy about 20 different times.........but they don't speak to me, so I am buying it on an ASSUMPTION is will be good (obviously since there is no demo or other things on google about it)............BUT, if I HAD been part of this testing, and it was BOSS, I would GLADLY pay for it, for the time, the "what you get factor" etc etc
if eric was to say TODAY, "I have this new synth and I want YOU (brice), to test it, I would obviously since I love doing this, make some demos, and hopefully NOT have to report to many errors............but I would STILL buy it, even after the fact, because I got my "credit" I want.
so to say MOST want free stuff...........not ALWAYS true, my problem is (and no offense scot), I am not writing articles, so I don't get EVERYTHING for free..........I buy it.
another sad fact, I was a journalism major for 4 years, so I could write a great review, catchy slogan for marketing, etc etc.........but when I OFFER to help out, no emails come my way.........and I do it for the LOVE.
oh well.........can't group everything that simple I guess is what I am trying to say

Turilaslasturi wrote:

I don't see the mindset that you're only doing it so you get the instrument for free in the end being much better.

correct.. but i never claimed that getting the instrument for free should be your #1 goal either..

given the two though.. i'd rather have the person who wants the product over the person who just wants to be the first on the block to try it..
the reason being.. the person who wants the copy is more likely to use it, thus more likely to test it properly to get the kinks out - who likes to use buggy software?

Turilaslasturi wrote:

Yeah, and for a job you sign a contract beforehand, where your salary etc is determined. At that point you can decide to bail out or take the job, it's entirely up to you. There's no point in bitching afterwards if you didn't find out what you were getting into beforehand. Yes, it's "reasonable" to get the product for free in the end, but if that hasn't been promised beforehand, one really shouldn't be that surprised/irritated/outraged if it doesn't happen.

If some payment for my alpha/beta testing "services" were promised, I wouldnt test anything without a signed document either...

glad we agree though

It´s a rule for NI and Steinberg to give away the sotware for free to beta testers, I really would be interested which company in the VST sector has the courage to bug beta testers after many hours of hard work...

KRIMINAL wrote:

I have to say, i have been lucky enough so far to have got the full commercial product after testing from all the companies i have tested for.....so far.

me too,altho not as many as you Krim
but still its nice but i wouldnt expect it, i feel that being given the chance to play and maybe get a link to your tunes(if using product and good enough i mean)is enough to expect,but gifts are nice

haha

interesting replys there

so now we have some complete testers out there willing to spend hours finding bugs and messing up there machines maybe for nothing.

thats cool if that sustains, I have tested and help develop (ideas) about
50 products inc stand alone synths fx.

some never got released, some never got finshed, and 2 asked me to buy the final release or refused any updates.

so basicaly now I ask before doing any testing.

"do you want me to work for FREE"

how can a beta tester be getting a product for FREE when they have WORKED many hours to improve and add ideas into a product.
that to me sounds inverted and a very odd way of looking at it.

as usual (exactly why I dont post much anymore)
some users love to just divert the original post for the sake of it.

I DO NOT work for free, and never will.

but I do give things away for free.

it was just a warning,

PS, I may mention the company that wont give it's testers an update.

the bottom line is, ask before testing
if you will get an NFR (not for resale) with full updates for your work.

unless you are the ones that want to do it for free
then tell them I will work for many hours on your product
and then buy it on full release. they will love you for that im sure
just make sure you know how to do a real test.

simple.

NFR stands for: Not For Resale

Both ways work...but especially in a case where you get the free copy you're motivated to subject it to the most stringent tests I would think since you don't want any problems yourself in the future...
In many cases it makes sense to reward a tester with a registered copy of the final simply because they have taken on a reasonable risk to their machine that they otherwise generally strive to keep bug-free to push something new to the limits...Though not all cases represent such a sacrifice...many do....It's give and take...and I think realistic smaller companies do better to do this...It's a shame that bigger companies would want to be stingy, but, of course, it's their prerogative...
If a company has a strong relationship with a small group of testers around the globe(which is usually a more realistic cross-section than you'll get in some lab) I think the love should flow both ways...generally both groups are putting in work...and hopefully the work the testers do is up to a standard worthy of getting a registered copy...A company can filter out the more useless testers and the people testing know themselves if they're really doing enough or not...this way(building a relationship with a small, varied group of testers) there's less chance of some idiot passing out a beta...and, as I said above, the product benefits from the tester's own interest in having a bug-free final copy...
Again, both ways are acceptable from a company...just don't make the whole world paying beta testers like MS

It's a good warning topaz.

I think as BETA tester you should know what you're in for so there's no disappointment after it.

If I was asked to BETA test a product, I would take it for granted that I will not be getting any money or product from it. However, I would usually only BETA test for smaller/independent developers. I don't give a crap to test for Steinberg or Native Instruments.

However, I would definitely consider testing for Muon because I like their products, I like Dave and I would want to help support Muon. And Muzys - well we all know about that....

So I guess for me BETA testing isn't a job, it's a favour.

Of course, different people do things for different reasons.

just to send the message out "LOUD AND CLEAR"

this is ONE company,
99% dont have a problem .

example:

Yes I saw your posts on K-v-r. I can guarantee that when "" ""is finished you will have the final release and any updates

this is the ethics of 99% of the companys out there.

but beware there are a small amount that take the help
then forget you, but they are rare.

I will not post the actual company (not my stlye).

Caleb wrote:

It's a good warning topaz.

hey!
who wants to beta test our latest...............
oh
wait
not the right thread



topaz: that's harsh man.

Not wanting to pick a fight, and this most likely doesn't apply to YOU, but...

You have to see it from a developers viewpoint too though: a lot of people want to beta-test, have no idea how to do it properly and at the end just sit there waiting for the product to be finished...
What do you do about that kind of tester? It's a difficult subject.

- bram

Hey, if your time doesn't mean shit to you, then betatest for free. But real betatesting usually requires you to do a LOT more than you normally would with a program, systematically, to reveal hidden problems though, and that takes a LOT of time! One of my friends at a very major company does testing, and just stopped the product from shipping because it locks up the whole computer when he went into a certain part of the application that obviously no one did before, and you're forced to reboot. It's that type of approach of 'try everything in every way you can' that is very time consuming, and a lot of work.

I value my free time too much to just help out someone I don't even know for absolutely nothing. If it was my best buddy, maybe that be a different story...

Devon

it is, thats why this was wrote by one of the good guys

"because frankly it's in the companies interest to keep good relations with any tester."

my problem is testing the product and helping out a lot in the early days
then being told I would not get the update version, no way to download.

(ps this update is free to existing users)
this company are just being assholes nothing less.

why give a tester there much deserved NFR then say
"right now you can can get *ucked."

Bram wrote:

hey! who wants to beta test our latest............... oh wait not the right thread topaz: that's harsh man. Not wanting to pick a fight, and this most likely doesn't apply to YOU, but... You have to see it from a developers viewpoint too though: a lot of people want to beta-test, have no idea how to do it properly and at the end just sit there waiting for the product to be finished... What do you do about that kind of tester? It's a difficult subject. - bram

thats up to the dev to realise that the tester is crap surely ?

you sent me Ambience, I couldnt really find any bugs, nothing crashed here so far, so I made some presets for it.

I dont expect a free copy but if I do then great. but If I had spent hours on it and found bugs then I would of thought the very least would of been an NFR.

im sure this isnt an issue because your a good fair guy.

it's all about ethics as far as I can see.

Bram wrote:

topaz: that's harsh man. Not wanting to pick a fight, and this most likely doesn't apply to YOU, but... You have to see it from a developers viewpoint too though: a lot of people want to beta-test, have no idea how to do it properly and at the end just sit there waiting for the product to be finished... What do you do about that kind of tester? It's a difficult subject. - bram

topaz wrote:

it's all about ethics as far as I can see. Bram wrote: topaz: that's harsh man. Not wanting to pick a fight, and this most likely doesn't apply to YOU, but... You have to see it from a developers viewpoint too though: a lot of people want to beta-test, have no idea how to do it properly and at the end just sit there waiting for the product to be finished... What do you do about that kind of tester? It's a difficult subject. - bram

Exactly - The dev to be ethical to give a copy of the product to the hard working tester, and the tester to put hard work into the beta. If the tester doesn't do crap with it, then I can see the problem.

Devon

I recently paid a company to beta test their product

Not mentioning any names but their initials were N.I.

DevonB wrote:

Hey, if your time doesn't mean shit to you, then betatest for free.

Well actually my time does mean shit to me, but that's why I only BETA test very selectively.

I just think some things are worth supporting - and for those things/companies I will go out of my way.

Just stumbled about this thread I'll let you know a developers point of view. As Bram said its a different experience
In the past we often asked for betas testers in forums or on our website and from, lets say, 50 offers we got, only 25 people sent a reply at all after getting our beta software. From these 25 about 10 only say something like "its crashing, make it better" or "works perfect, good work", nothing really usefull and I hardly imagine they spend time on testing but they looked into a new instrument before it gets released for personal pleasure or whatever.
From the rest you get about 10 people that hardly work on the test and spend time and time. We've always given a free license to the testers that obviously did their job, and to some that maybe beginners, but not to all that originally subscribed to the test. These days we work with testers we know, so the results are much better and if someone asks if he can beta test he may get a chance to test but definitely not the guaratee to get a free license of the final product.
My personal experience is that serious testers never asked for a free license but they ever got it.

Peter

Peter as a great developer would you:

let a user test and help improve your product, send them an NFR for all there work, then a year later update, have a very short test period
and not send the guy that helped out on the first version the update.

I dont think so, and that is what this thread was about.

not amined at you but PLEASE keep the topic on topic, lots of things
being said here (as per forum usual) are way way off topic.

the point is >>>>>ONE MORE TIME<<<<<<

I would hope that users that tested IE:RM111 for you would get the updated version, if not...then rewarding them with there nfr in the first place is a complete waste of time.

"is this clear now" I cant be any more clear can I ?

Peter from LinPlug wrote:

Just stumbled about this thread I'll let you know a developers point of view. As Bram said its a different experience In the past we often asked for betas testers in forums or on our website and from, lets say, 50 offers we got, only 25 people sent a reply at all after getting our beta software. From these 25 about 10 only say something like "its crashing, make it better" or "works perfect, good work", nothing really usefull and I hardly imagine they spend time on testing but they looked into a new instrument before it gets released for personal pleasure or whatever. From the rest you get about 10 people that hardly work on the test and spend time and time. We've always given a free license to the testers that obviously did their job, and to some that maybe beginners, but not to all that originally subscribed to the test. These days we work with testers we know, so the results are much better and if someone asks if he can beta test he may get a chance to test but definitely not the guaratee to get a free license of the final product. My personal experience is that serious testers never asked for a free license but they ever got it. Peter

again just incase im not clear, for those that still dont get it.

"if a tester gets there NFR (hey it,s not free if you worked for it is it ?) sent to them in the first place then surely the developer was happy with them in the first place.

to then say

"your not getting the update, you have to buy the whole thing again "
is nothing short of asshole as far as I can see, but it seems some have other ideas. thats life I guess.

I say tomato, you say tomayto.. lets call the whole thing off.

how to delete an entire thread ? LOL.

Ah... I was off topic , sorry was not aware of this.

Quote:

I would hope that users that tested IE:RM111 for you would get the updated version, if not...then rewarding them with there nfr in the first place is a complete waste of time.

Well, yes, you are right that I would not do so as when I give someione a license it is a license and we have no cathegories of licenses or something. So he would be entitled to update/upgrade like any other user.

I would disagree that it was a complete waste of time as probably you had a good time as tester Ok, that was a joke, but you still have the option to use the product you got. I'm not feeling that this is completely wrong.

In Example we are beta testing for Steinberg and I hardly can imagine I can later go to a shop and ask them for an update for my NFR-Cubase SX. Can I ? No. Nothing wrong with this from my point of view (Thats my opinion as tester, ok).

Peter

topaz wrote:

how to delete an entire thread ? LOL.

I'm sure one of the mods could arrange that for you...?

DevonB

it seems your the only one that read the true reason I posted.
thanks for that, it's amazing how by skipping thru a thread how totaly off topic it goes.

thanks for taking the time to read -)

DevonB wrote:

topaz wrote: it's all about ethics as far as I can see. Bram wrote: topaz: that's harsh man. Not wanting to pick a fight, and this most likely doesn't apply to YOU, but... You have to see it from a developers viewpoint too though: a lot of people want to beta-test, have no idea how to do it properly and at the end just sit there waiting for the product to be finished... What do you do about that kind of tester? It's a difficult subject. - bram Exactly - The dev to be ethical to give a copy of the product to the hard working tester, and the tester to put hard work into the beta. If the tester doesn't do crap with it, then I can see the problem. Devon

well I too have tested for steinberg and yes I still get updates because when they gave me it to me, they gave it to me with no rules.

yes I can still use it sure, but why exclude me from an update?

to me it seems like a kick in the teeth.

and peter, as you said when you give, you give with no rules the way it should and 99% of the time is.

Peter from LinPlug wrote:

Well, yes, you are right that I would not do so as when I give someione a license it is a license and we have no cathegories of licenses or something. So he would be entitled to update/upgrade like any other user. I would disagree that it was a complete waste of time as probably you had a good time as tester Ok, that was a joke, but you still have the option to use the product you got. I'm not feeling that this is completely wrong. In Example we are beta testing for Steinberg and I hardly can imagine I can later go to a shop and ask them for an update for my NFR-Cubase SX. Can I ? No. Nothing wrong with this from my point of view (Thats my opinion as tester, ok). Peter

yes, it seems it may need to happen, another thread sabotage. :

M_W_N_P wrote:

topaz wrote: how to delete an entire thread ? LOL. I'm sure one of the mods could arrange that for you...?

topaz wrote:

to me it seems like a kick in the teeth.

Surely a kick in the teeth would have stopped you talking?

dont worry im almost 100% finished.

what a great example of how a thread can be killed in 2 days
put this one in the hall of shame.

tata.

M_W_N_P wrote:

topaz wrote: to me it seems like a kick in the teeth. Surely a kick in the teeth would have stopped you talking?

Alex wrote:

I recently paid a company to beta test their product Not mentioning any names but their initials were N.I.

When was that? My partner is beta tester for NI, recieved Absynth 1.3 and Battery for free. The whole group of testers.

Did they change their policies because of the new programs?

topaz wrote:

dont worry im almost 100% finished.

Granular synthesis, you say?

I agree: a fascinating subject.

Something that I find very interesting is the apparent overlap between timestretch effects and granular synthesis. I'm assuming that (with the exception of phase vocoder-based stretches) the mechanics of the two processes are quite similar...?

If so, it makes me wonder how we might think about the side effects of very extreme timestretches (greater than 2000%, for instance). These long stretches introduce all kinds of strange artefacts, which could be said to mark a "failure" of the timestretch algorithm...

...but surely it requires only a small conceptual shift for these side-effects to be thought of as desirable products of a kind of random granular synthesis, no?

So, a tool like SoX, for instance, which on the face of it might seem to be obsolote, could perhaps be reclaimed and recategorised? Perhaps not a very useful timestretch effect...but conceivably a useful offline granular wave-renderer?

Just a thought.

elmodic wrote:

Alex wrote: I recently paid a company to beta test their product Not mentioning any names but their initials were N.I. When was that? My partner is beta tester for NI, recieved Absynth 1.3 and Battery for free. The whole group of testers. Did they change their policies because of the new programs?

It was a joke about Reaktor Sessions. After buying, many users found that it was way to buggy to use. I had to report about 25 bugs to them which is usually more bugs than I find in beta versions that I have tested before release. It was just a joke...

Does beta testing get you more chicks?

whyterabbyt wrote:

Does beta testing get you more chicks?

Extreme timestretching does - although be aware that redheads only respond to stretches in excess of 4000%.

Believe me, when I say I have no problem getting responses out of a redhead....

ok ot
Believe me, when I say I have no problem getting no responses out of a blond...

whyterabbyt wrote:

Does beta testing get you more chicks?

are men also chicks ?

i usualy ask her

Was today really Necessary?

I think we're drifting Off-Topic here...

So, what's your favourite compressor?

Hey, I try! Now if anyone wants to consider me for beta testing, just let me know.

Devon

topaz wrote:

DevonB it seems your the only one that read the true reason I posted. thanks for that, it's amazing how by skipping thru a thread how totaly off topic it goes. thanks for taking the time to read -) DevonB wrote: topaz wrote: it's all about ethics as far as I can see. Bram wrote: topaz: that's harsh man. Not wanting to pick a fight, and this most likely doesn't apply to YOU, but... You have to see it from a developers viewpoint too though: a lot of people want to beta-test, have no idea how to do it properly and at the end just sit there waiting for the product to be finished... What do you do about that kind of tester? It's a difficult subject. - bram Exactly - The dev to be ethical to give a copy of the product to the hard working tester, and the tester to put hard work into the beta. If the tester doesn't do crap with it, then I can see the problem. Devon

no problem, send me a list of what you have helped with and I can
put a word in, dont worry I wont get you on the " " list. -)

I hope you can find this post somehow thru all the other nonsense.

DevonB wrote:

Hey, I try! Now if anyone wants to consider me for beta testing, just let me know. Devon topaz wrote: DevonB it seems your the only one that read the true reason I posted. thanks for that, it's amazing how by skipping thru a thread how totaly off topic it goes. thanks for taking the time to read -) DevonB wrote: topaz wrote: it's all about ethics as far as I can see. Bram wrote: topaz: that's harsh man. Not wanting to pick a fight, and this most likely doesn't apply to YOU, but... You have to see it from a developers viewpoint too though: a lot of people want to beta-test, have no idea how to do it properly and at the end just sit there waiting for the product to be finished... What do you do about that kind of tester? It's a difficult subject. - bram Exactly - The dev to be ethical to give a copy of the product to the hard working tester, and the tester to put hard work into the beta. If the tester doesn't do crap with it, then I can see the problem. Devon

M_W_N_P wrote:

I think we're drifting Off-Topic here... So, what's your favourite compressor?

DBX 160xt rack mount

elmodic quoth are men also chicks?

Primarily in internet chat rooms, I understand.