Hi everyone,

I'm looking for a vst instrument for orhestral arrangements. I'd need a variety of good strings and other orchestral instruments.

Would you help me chooosing the best one or help me giving me a list of the best orchestral stuff for vst?

Thank you very much for any suggestion.

C u.

Rob

Start by looking at these threads:

www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17297

www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14635

www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13988

www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12141

I was looking for the thread where we were talking about SampleTank XL for use with classical music. Based on raves by other people of how good the instruments were, I bought STXL because I thought it would give me a good set of orchestral instruments. I was disappointed and only later had my disappointment affirmed by somebody on this board whose opinion I respect, who essentially said ST is woefully deficient for doing serious orchestral work.

My wad thus blown, right now I'm using Jeskola XS-1 (soundfont player) and soundfonts, combined with some of the SampleTank instruments. A few free soundfonts that are decent are BH Cello and the Violin STRAD V1 available from the Sound Site (www.soundsite.net). The S J Orchestral bank is pretty good, at least for some instruments, and although I have not tried it the Sinfonia bank is supposed to be good. And depending on what you are doing, you might get some mileage out of the Cheese Machine presets (but get the user-supplied presets available here; some are quite nice).

I have yet to take the strong advice of getting Garritin Lite because I don't have the $. I don't have the Eidoral Orchestral either, but a friend does and he likes it for orchestral work. He is not, however, a "real" musician (nor am I) so you need to look to those who know enough to be more demanding of their instruments for the best advice.

Get yourself a sampler like NI Kontakt or Steinberg Halion2, and then u buy all the miroslav's samplecd's
http://www.ilio.com/miraslov/master/index.html
Or U should also look into:
http://www.ilio.com/vienna/cube/
"The Vienna Symphonic Library Cube is the most ambitious orchestral sample library ever produced. Created by a team of over 40 producers and engineers, plus dozens of Vienna's top musicians, this is truly a groundbreaking library of monumental proportions"
"ORCHESTRAL CUBE, 45 Gigabytes
This massive treasury of Strings, Brass, Woodwinds, and Percussion multisamples was captured with pioneering recording technology in a specially constructed sound stage. Every instrument and section was recorded in one finely tuned environment for sonic consistency throughout the library. Expertly programmed for TASCAM GigaStudio and Emagic EXS24."

safeaim wrote:

Get yourself a sampler like NI Kontakt or Steinberg Halion2, and then u buy all the miroslav's samplecd's http://www.ilio.com/miraslov/master/index.html Or U should also look into: http://www.ilio.com/vienna/cube/

Just make sure you’re sitting down when you read the price tag.

I would also be interested in other people’s opinions on this as I’m in the market for orchestral samples myself. I’m looking for that Holy Grail: good quality samples that won’t cost me an arm and a leg.

The ones I’m leaning towards at the moment are:

String sections: Garritan Orchestral Strings (Lite edition)

Solo strings: Kirk Hunter Solo Strings

Brass sections: SAM Horns, SAM Trombones

Solo brass: Bigga Orchestral Brass

For orchestral percussion I found a site with some great free snares, timpani and cymbals ( http://62.13.11.115/gtown ) but it seems to be down at the moment.

Now I just have to figure out how to scrape together the money for this AND all the other exciting stuff that’s coming out: Absynth 2, SampleTank 2, The Cube, X-Phrase...my lordie.

Someone on this board (Rabid?) has a sig which says ”I don’t own VSTi:s, VSTi:s own me". Mine should read ”I don’t own VSTi:s, my bank owns them”.

/Yoss

And check this one out too:
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-155
IT'S EXSPENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But damn the demo sounds good

There ARE good free instruments out there that can be used, but it takes some major hunting to find them...and, of course, one person's trash is another person's gold. It depends so much on how you use them. I've heard that the Gigasampler instruments sound dreadful dry but become magical when you apply the right effects to them. I've found this to be true of some of the freebie instruments I've got that I thought were complete garbage until I put a little reverb to them.

I forget who it was that started the thread listing the better plugin effects, organized by type. That has been most helpful. If somebody were up to doing the same thing (I'm not, although I'd contribute my 2 cents) for free or very low-cost sampled instruments, I think that would be a real keeper on this site. This question comes up over and over and over and over again! And for many of us, the higher-end libraries are permanently out of reach...something to dream about, something to strive for...give up that new computer or needed auto repairs for...starve for...move to the gutter for....

For orchestral stuff the best option I know is:

- Gigastudio
- Symphonic libraries (Garritan, Sonic Implant Strings, Vienna, etc.)

Other cheaper solutions are valid but not the best.

JRaul wrote:

For orchestral stuff the best option I know is: - Gigastudio - Symphonic libraries (Garritan, Sonic Implant Strings, Vienna, etc.) Other cheaper solutions are valid but not the best.

I'm not wild about the Sonic Implants orchestral or woodwinds sets I bought several years ago. Is the Strings implant something new/better?

dkistner wrote:

I'm not wild about the Sonic Implants orchestral or woodwinds sets I bought several years ago. Is the Strings implant something new/better?

Some people claim this string section is much better than garritan. Less plastic sounding and much more sweet (Garritan are know to be a bit aggressive I think).

The "Symphonic String Collection" from Sonic Implants is an entirely new library unrelated to their small, inexpensive string library from the past. The new one is one of the best available. I have it and it sounds fantastic. You can get more info at their website, of course.

James

Hi everyone,

First of all i'd like to thnak you all, this forum's guys are great and always ready to help..ThanX!!

I see there are a lot of good orchestral instruments. I'll check them later and let you know. If you have soemthingelse to add don't hesitate

Thank yuo all!!

C u

Rob

dkistner wrote:

I don't have the Eidoral Orchestral either, but a friend does and he likes it for orchestral work.

Let's give the guy some chance of being able to find this beast: it's spelled "Edirol".

V.

(According to the laws of the known universe, this post, being a spelling flame, will now contain an even more egragious violation of the English language.)

if you dont want to go into sample cd's edirol has a really nice vst called orchestral. one of my fav's

Is that edirol instrument easy to use?
Now I own 3 vitous cd's and they sound great, but to make a song sound like a real orchestra is playing it is a different story, because you just have the sample, it just takes to much time figuring out which samples to use for which part of the song.
I need something more like a VA synthesizer with orchestra sounds where I can just change the sound in realtime, instead of using different samples all the time, something like a virtual vilion, viola, cello and so on.

TennesseeVic wrote:

dkistner wrote: I don't have the Eidoral Orchestral either, but a friend does and he likes it for orchestral work. Let's give the guy some chance of being able to find this beast: it's spelled "Edirol". V. (According to the laws of the known universe, this post, being a spelling flame, will now contain an even more egragious violation of the English language.)

Sorry, V. I do know how to spell it. It's just that, now, we're back to dial-up and with everyone else yammering for me to get off, I don't have as much time to read back over my posts as I used to to be sure my fingers weren't disconnected from my brain when I wrote them.

Or maybe it was a nicotine fit coming on....

I want to believe "egragious" was intentional, but even if wasn't, your error wasn't so egregious, because you called it beforehand.

Sampletank is pretty cool an it imports Akai stuff too

sampletank 2.0 is said to be even cooler

And I thought this was just asking to see what we thought was the best orchestral instrument...

I was going to say that I really love the flute - have done for a long time. But I think I love the cello just slightly more.

Guess I should pipe in here as usual.

I'm still surprised that people list Miroslav as 'best' as it's old, small sample banks, and *VERY* limited to what you can do, period. I've owned the Miroslav set for years, and wouldn't recommend them at all now with the current lot of sample sets now available for Giga for the same prices or less.

You want good? Be prepared to pay for it. Also be prepared to WORK for it too. I'm sorry guys, but thinking that you can simply lay your hands on the keyboard and 'whammo' you got a symphony, that's not going to happen. I remember how 'disappointed' I was when I first started playing with Garritan Lite Edition.... then I layered everything like you're SUPPOSED to do, added reverb, and WOW! When you've got upwards of almost 100 players in a symphony, this 'simple' approach isn't going to cut it, PERIOD.

Also what you're going to need is MULTIPLE MACHINES, unless you like constant bounce down. I have 3 machines now, and the more I dig into this, I'm probably going to want more.

'Good' is so subjective. Even the best libraries right now can be picked apart for now sounding completely 'real'. But here is your options from my lil playbook of what I consider worthy. If it's not on the list, either I missed it on accident, but more than likely, missed it on purpose.

Strings -

Garritan www.garritan.com
Sonic Implants Symphony Strings www.sonicimplants.com
VSL www.vsl.co.at
Symphony Strings www.kirkhunterstudios.com (come in string sections and solo strings)
QLSO Strings www.soundsonline.com

I own Garritan Lite, and am pleased. I'd like more articulations and control, but I can get that with the full version of the library if I choose to upgrade. I'm seriously considering getting the Solo strings of Kirk Hunter though.

Woodwinds -

Dan Dean Solo Woodwinds www.dandeanpro.com
VSL
Kirk Hunter Flute
QLSO

I own Dan Dean Woodwinds. Simply incredible! Do not regret that purchase whatsoever! The new Kirk Hunter flute solo and ensemble library is sounding pretty tasty as well for $99.

Brass -

Dan Dean Solo Brass
Dan Dean Brass Ensembles
Kirk Hunter Brass Ensembles
VSL
QLSO
SAM Horns (in various flavors)


I own the DD Solo Brass, and again, simply BREATHTAKING! I'm STRONGLY considering the Kirk Hunter Brass, and will probably pick it up in a few weeks. 33 gigs on 10 DVD's. They sound yummy!

Percussion -

VSL
QLSO

I know there is another percussion library out there that's popular, but I can't think of the name off the top of my head. I own the VSL Percussion set. VERY VERY nice. Waiting for the 'full' set to come out so I can upgrade. The drums (field drum, bass drum, timpani, etc) are simply incredible! I really enjoy the glocks and the xylophone too. Very nice set for 12 gigs worth of sounds.

Also, you WILL need a good reverb. The sounds go from 'so so' to stunning with a good quality reverb on them.

Simply put, if you want GOOD orchestral, be prepared to spend several THOUSAND. The other stuff is going to sound mediocre in comparison. I've been checking out a lot of the guys on Northern Sounds of what they've been doing with those libraries.... holy shit, it's movie soundtrack quality good! I'm constantly blown away at the talent a lot of them have over there.

Also, be prepared to WORK for your sound. Orchestral arrangement is a PHENOMINAL amount of work for so little output. I filled up 16 tracks in Giga within an hour, and the song was only about 45 seconds in length at that point. This stuff takes TIME, hard work, and dedication. But if you like this kinda stuff, it's very very rewarding.

So I guess it depends on your definition of 'good'. Mine is 'competes with the quality of a real orchestra in Movie soundtracks that you can't tell the difference from it and the real thing.'

Devon

im surprised no-one has mentioned steinbugs halion string edition

OK its by every ones favourite independant software producer but

Its a serious step up from the edirol thing or any of the romplers that others mentioned - im no violinist but at least these sound like they might have been played with a bow

Couldnt compare it to garritan light mind

I use Edirol Orchestral for all my orchestral arrangements, that is because I use it in mixes with all the other stuff such as electric guitars, electric pianoes and all those stuff. If you want to create a pure orchestral piece then you might be better off with those sample CDs mentioned above...

ericj23 wrote:

im surprised no-one has mentioned steinbugs halion string edition OK its by every ones favourite independant software producer but Its a serious step up from the edirol thing or any of the romplers that others mentioned - im no violinist but at least these sound like they might have been played with a bow Couldnt compare it to garritan light mind

If you already have Gigastudio, then there's really no reason to me to look at HALion Strings. So far what I've heard, I'm not impressed, esp not for the price. But if you need a 'stand alone' strings set, it might be ok. Probably be more more well spent for QLSO Strings if you need stand alone though, but then again, for its price, you could buy Giga and Garritan too.

Really, if you want the best, you're still looking at Giga libraries.

Devon

DevonB wrote:

If you already have Gigastudio, then there's really no reason to me to look at HALion Strings. Really, if you want the best, you're still looking at Giga libraries. Devon

Hey! Halion Strings aren't that hot but some of the more bloody-minded of us Gigastudio and Kontakt owning folk (i.e. me) want to create convincing sounding string arrangements, then mess them up live with VST effects I got Garritan Lite for this very purpose. BTW the Mini Vitous collection is regarded more highly in terms of sound quality, if not ease of use.

griels wrote:

DevonB wrote: If you already have Gigastudio, then there's really no reason to me to look at HALion Strings. Really, if you want the best, you're still looking at Giga libraries. Devon Hey! Halion Strings aren't that hot but some of the more bloody-minded of us Gigastudio and Kontakt owning folk (i.e. me) want to create convincing sounding string arrangements, then mess them up live with VST effects I got Garritan Lite for this very purpose. BTW the Mini Vitous collection is regarded more highly in terms of sound quality, if not ease of use.

The Mini Vitous library is also EXTREMELY limited. If you want to do slow, somber pieces, you could do decently. Beyond that, you're screwed. I also don't remember them being that dynamic either (it's been quite awhile since I really touched that collection). They're ok, but still not up to par with everything else, *ESPECIALLY* with the price that they are at! Hmmm.... Buy QLSO (whenever the hell it comes out) or spend the same amount on Miroslav's very small library. To me, it's a no brainer.

The VERY limited set didn't give you much to work with either. Violin (legato, pizz, and staccato only), Viola (legato ONLY), Cello (Legato, and pizz ONLY) C Bass (LEgato and pizz ONLY), Clarinet, Flute, French Horn, Trumpet, Bassoon, trombone, and Timpani. That was it. While they sounded decent (the brass was simply horrible and plastic sounding though), it's certainly not worth the price they're asking for. 5 years ago, the price was appropriate. Not anymore.

Devon

DevonB wrote:

The VERY limited set didn't give you much to work with either. Violin (legato, pizz, and staccato only), Viola (legato ONLY), Cello (Legato, and pizz ONLY) C Bass (LEgato and pizz ONLY), Clarinet, Flute, French Horn, Trumpet, Bassoon, trombone, and Timpani. That was it.

This is the point where I get confused about all these instruments. I can control how an instrument plays from my scoring program (Harmony Assistant). I do not need different instrument-based treatments for different playing styles in order to reasonably well effect those playing styles from my scoring program.

Now, granted, I'm not an orchestral wizard and I don't know enough about how all the instruments should ideally be played to know if my scoring program is up to it. But it can do a lot. When I apply effects for the different articulations (I guess that's what they're called?) I get those articulations in the output. If I code a range of notes as staccato, that's what I get...even if the instrument I'm applying it to is not specifically staccato. The limitations are probably midi-based and CPU-based, if indeed there are limitations.

My main limitation is not having a grounding in musicianship for the instruments I choose, no sense of what virtuoso perfomance is in other words, and that (I would think) would not change even if I spent thousands on instruments. I'd think it would pay off even more to invest in seasons' tickets to the symphony or to engage in some very careful listening/comparing with live recordings or learn more about how the instruments are actually played in the real world. I'm past learning how to play the real thing, myself, though.

My scoring program's palette has up and down bowings, guitar pulls and strikes, and tons of other effects that I have yet to learn how to use. Whatever is not available in the note-level effects can be accomplished with parameter curves. So, assuming one knows when it is appropriate to apply these effects--how one plays an instrument, rather than how the instrument plays out of the box--couldn't decent efforts be achieved with an instrument of reasonable quality? A pissy instrument, I know, is going to sound like a pissy instrument; I'm talking about those that are workable with the right technique.

dkistner wrote:

I can control how an instrument plays from my scoring program (Harmony Assistant). I do not need different instrument-based treatments for different playing styles in order to reasonably well effect those playing styles from my scoring program.

That´s my point too. I´m using Jammer Pro, a midi based composition sequencer which lets me define how an instrument should be played and then it is played like I wanted to. So you can compose songs that could be played by a real professional band. That´s very useful composing guitar parts, for example. Everybody who already tried to play a guitar part via keyboard knows what I´m speaking about. Also, with that software, you don´t have to compose all accompaniment musicians by yourself if you don´t want to be bored by doing this.

dkistner wrote:

DevonB wrote: The VERY limited set didn't give you much to work with either. Violin (legato, pizz, and staccato only), Viola (legato ONLY), Cello (Legato, and pizz ONLY) C Bass (LEgato and pizz ONLY), Clarinet, Flute, French Horn, Trumpet, Bassoon, trombone, and Timpani. That was it. This is the point where I get confused about all these instruments. I can control how an instrument plays from my scoring program (Harmony Assistant). I do not need different instrument-based treatments for different playing styles in order to reasonably well effect those playing styles from my scoring program.

Then tell me how you'd get scattaco out of a legato flute sample? Or how you get up and down bowings out of a violin that only has down bowing? Or how you get marcato, spitzicato, pizzicato, grand detache, etc. out of a viola that doesn't have those particular articulations? How can you get ensemble sections with single instruments, and get them to sound 'big'? This is where the big libraries come into play. Having only legato samples REALLY limits you to what you can do, and the Miroslav library has LIMITED articluations, and single performances.

Devon

Devon.. have you heard anything about the new eastwest quantumleap symphony orchestra stuff?

i was keen enough to go look.. but the price! $1000 for each set.. strings/wind/brass/percussion..

that'll make it more expensive than VSL

fitch wrote:

Devon.. have you heard anything about the new eastwest quantumleap symphony orchestra stuff? i was keen enough to go look.. but the price! $1000 for each set.. strings/wind/brass/percussion.. that'll make it more expensive than VSL

Yes, I have, and even mentioned it in my list of stuff above (QLSO = Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra). And no, it's not more expensive. Full VSL will be $5490. Full QLSO will be $2999. Which for what these libraries do, isn't too bad. Once you play with the quality libraries, it's hard to look back. Waiting for VSL Percussion full to be done still, so I can get the rest of the instruments I wanted.

As to regards to the library, I've heard good things about it.... what little I've heard. Guess it still does some things better than VSL, or some such. Really, we're STILL waiting for a release date for the library, which keeps getting pushed back over and over. Though with orchestral libraries, the more you have, the better off you are. You can never have enough orchestral libraries, unlike VSTi's where you can have too many subtractive synths.

Devon

DevonB wrote:

Then tell me how you'd get scattaco out of a legato flute sample?

I wouldn't even try! But that's because I'm not terribly drawn to the flute.

DevonB wrote:

Or how you get up and down bowings out of a violin that only has down bowing?

Forgive my stupidity, but how do I know a violin sample only has down bowing?

I'm not challenging what you said, Devon. I'm trying to understand how it all works and what precisely it is that makes it worth spending a thousand dollars for a strings set. If the quality of the samples themselves is vastly superior, that I can see if one has the money for it. But if it's just a matter of all these different ways of articulating being built into the instruments, and more sophisticated layers and such, that indeed makes it easier to orchestrate but that I can hope (in my relatively simple compositions) to approximate via articulation effects in software--assuming the core waveform quality is good--that, see, is what I'm asking.

Now I have some sense about velocity layers and such, and I've looked at (drooled over) the Garritan site, so you don't have to go into all that. But given that one instrument made of a certain material and capable of a certain timbre with certain partials and all that is able to do these different articulations (I mean, the violinist does not put one violin down and pick up another when the piece calls for changing articulation, does s/he?), and assuming recorded samples (with a good key range, of course) of that instrument have all the necessary elements of the waveform that can be "played" in different ways by (the right) software, why is it that you can't get different articulations out of those waveforms? I can see that you wouldn't want to try to make a staccato sample legato, but why can't you make a legato sample staccato? I just don't understand!

DevonB wrote:

How can you get ensemble sections with single instruments, and get them to sound 'big'?

If I ever write something that calls for a big ensemble section, my guess would be that I would stage-position a handful of different single instruments, each with its own characteristic sound and timbre, and further strive to "play" those instruments slightly differently (in all the ways one can play differently in software), as human beings would...doubling, tripling, or quadrupling them as needed for the "back rows," again with slight differences. I would try to imagine the acoustics of the room they are playing in and tweak reverb and such until it started to sound like I imagine it would sound if I were in the actual instruments' presence. And I do have ensemble samples, too, that I could subtly blend in with them to lush them up some.

The main thing, for me, is to suggest an orchestra...not try to replace an orchestra. (If my work were good enough to warrant that, I could maybe hire a real orchestra to play it...or somebody else would hire them. But I don't even begin to delude myself this will ever happen!)

Even if I were ambitiously trying to convince people a real orchestra was playing my work, I wonder: Would somebody actually use 100 different single instruments to make up an ensemble? I will never in a million years be that dedicated! How many violins and violas are in a typical (read supportable) orchestra, anyway? I don't recall attending any symphony where they had a hundred of them. I don't think even the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra (the biggest orchestra I've ever seen in the flesh) had that many, but maybe I'm mistaken.

If price is an issue try this one: http://www.bigfishaudio.com/4DCGI/detail.html?220

Anyone care for a VL-1 vSTInstrument?

dkistner wrote:

DevonB wrote: Or how you get up and down bowings out of a violin that only has down bowing? Forgive my stupidity, but how do I know a violin sample only has down bowing?

By the sound, especially in fast passages where up and down bowing would be required if you were REALLY playing the instrument. The more familiar you're with the instrument, the more obvious this becomes.

dkistner wrote:

I'm not challenging what you said, Devon. I'm trying to understand how it all works and what precisely it is that makes it worth spending a thousand dollars for a strings set. If the quality of the samples themselves is vastly superior, that I can see if one has the money for it. But if it's just a matter of all these different ways of articulating being built into the instruments, and more sophisticated layers and such, that indeed makes it easier to orchestrate but that I can hope (in my relatively simple compositions) to approximate via articulation effects in software--assuming the core waveform quality is good--that, see, is what I'm asking.

It's not that it's necessarily 'built' into the instrument, but consider EACH articluation a 'different' instrument. Have you ever heard what a violin sounds like playing sordino, vs legato? Or the different between spitzacato vs marcato? The differences are subtle, but they are there. If you are completely happy with what you have, and are completely happy to be very limited to what you can write with an orchestra, then there is no reason to spend more money. But in my case, I want REALISTIC! I want to do EVERYTHING a real orchestra can, not just slow passages. Can you push the other articulations out of legato? I wish, but it isn't going to happen. Sounds like you're confusing what your 'software' does, vs what the actual instrument does. If you dont' have the actual sample of a real whole or half step trill, it doesn't sound quite right. All's your software is doing really is indicating to a real player how to play the violin. String instruments are so INCREDILBY dynamic, it's mind boggling. I have a book on orchestral instruments, its history, ranges, etc, and the largest section is dedicated to the violin itself, and MANY times larger than ANY other section in the book.

But generally, if you're asking yourself 'why do I need more', then you probably don't need more. I'm still wanting Garritan full strings library for even MORE articulations, because I know what I'm missing still, and want MORE. More control over the violin sound for more realistic passages.

dkistner wrote:

(I mean, the violinist does not put one violin down and pick up another when the piece calls for changing articulation, does s/he?), and assuming recorded samples (with a good key range, of course) of that instrument have all the necessary elements of the waveform that can be "played" in different ways by (the right) software, why is it that you can't get different articulations out of those waveforms? I can see that you wouldn't want to try to make a staccato sample legato, but why can't you make a legato sample staccato? I just don't understand!

This is something you have to hear. No, the violinist doesn't have to put down their violin, they just play it differently. Short bow attacks, long bow attacks, slow and soft bowing, string plucked, etc etc etc. There is so many ways you can control the bow on the string, how hard, soft, how long or short, which ALL very much effects the sound of the instrument. Same goes for any string instrument. You, the player, have significant control over how it sounds, and playing it the same way all the time is not going to get you the other sounds.

DevonB wrote:

How can you get ensemble sections with single instruments, and get them to sound 'big'?

dkistner wrote:

If I ever write something that calls for a big ensemble section, my guess would be that I would stage-position a handful of different single instruments, each with its own characteristic sound and timbre, and further strive to "play" those instruments slightly differently (in all the ways one can play differently in software), as human beings would...doubling, tripling, or quadrupling them as needed for the "back rows," again with slight differences. I would try to imagine the acoustics of the room they are playing in and tweak reverb and such until it started to sound like I imagine it would sound if I were in the actual instruments' presence. And I do have ensemble samples, too, that I could subtly blend in with them to lush them up some.

Sorry, not going to happen with solo instruments, least not to the degree of the way a real ensemble sounds. It's the 'human factor' of variations that give the 'big' ensmeble sounds. If you play 4 solo instruments and try to make it, it's not the same. It gets even worse when you try to double up notes. Try playing the same sample on the same note at the same time. You'll get a 'phasing' sound, which is very distict, and very unnatural sounding. You can 'kind of' pull this off by offsetting your sample start times to avoid the phasing, but still, it's not the same. The reverb is not going to help either.

dkistner wrote:

The main thing, for me, is to suggest an orchestra...not try to replace an orchestra. (If my work were good enough to warrant that, I could maybe hire a real orchestra to play it...or somebody else would hire them. But I don't even begin to delude myself this will ever happen!)

If that's what you want, then ok. I'm not even vaguely happy with just 'suggesting' an orchestra though. I want to HEAR the real thing. Buying the sets is a LOT cheaper in the long run than actually hiring a real orchestra, if you're wanting to do LOTS and LOTs of orchestral stuff.

dkistner wrote:

Even if I were ambitiously trying to convince people a real orchestra was playing my work, I wonder: Would somebody actually use 100 different single instruments to make up an ensemble? I will never in a million years be that dedicated! How many violins and violas are in a typical (read supportable) orchestra, anyway? I don't recall attending any symphony where they had a hundred of them. I don't think even the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra (the biggest orchestra I've ever seen in the flesh) had that many, but maybe I'm mistaken.

Depends on the orchestra, but I've seen anywhere from 60-ish, up to about 96 players. And yes, I've seen some guys using over 40 tracks at least to create orchestras in the computer. I've never asked who's used the most amount of tracks though to create an orchestra. I just knew about over 40 from reading someone else's post on another board.

Devon

Just adding to the fray as I've had a chance to try Halion Strings.

Here's the rub:

To get the best sound you have to learn to play the mod wheel to control the sample layers.

But this is incredibly difficult. Try it. It's like bowing on the mod wheel.

OTOH, just using HAL Stgs in velocity sensitive mode sounds v ordinary by comparison.

This raises the whole issue of playing instruments with a velocity sensitive keyboard.

In spite of what Devon says, Hal stgs sounds v good when played with the mod wheel. Possibly other sample sets benefit the same way.

Either way, a velo sensitive keyboard is a major obstacle regardless of how good the sample set.

I'm sure the best midi orchestrators here spend more of their time midi editing to death than they do actually playing.

DevonB wrote:

All's your software is doing really is indicating to a real player how to play the violin.

Devon, I'm answering this very hurriedly because I can't stay online long (my son's in his end-of-semester crunch and has to hog the Internet).

I'm not so sure about your statement above, because I HEAR differences when I apply articulation effects; it's not just indications of how to play for a printed score. But I'd be game to try a test if you're game to try one.

Might you be willing to put together a few short one-voice-line midi files with nothing done to them--flat velocity, no note-shaping or pitch bends, etc.--that are representative of various violin (or viola) articulations (named, maybe, by how they should be played, e.g., marcato) and then, also, your renditions of those articulations using your orchestral setup? Nothing else added...just to be instructive. No rush on this, but just sometime reasonably soon.

Perhaps some of us here could get into doing a comparison of how our different software and instruments behave when applied to those midi files. (Andreas, you game?) Maybe Ben would even give us some temporary upload space to share them?

Because I'm not a musician familiar with the complexity of violin playing (although I'm trying to learn from my own orchestration book), I'd want to be able to hear what the real pros here think fine articulations are before I attempt to effect them myself using my meagre setup. I could learn from this. I think many of us could...and it could help some make the decision of what to buy.

Yes, you'll 'hear' a difference, but it's not the same as actually having the violin ACTUALLY doing that particular articulation. Let's do what Garritan has then - Sustain Vibrato, Non-Vibrato, Sordino, Tremolo, Trills, Detache, Marcato, Spiccato, Portato & Pizzicato.

We've been having some pretty major thunderstorms here every nite here this week, and it's supposed to continue into next week, but I'll see what I can do. MP3 at 128k should be fine to hear what's going on for a difference. Who would like to host the file? Kevvvvv interested? Seems like something that's up his alley.

Devon

kevvvvv wrote:

Just adding to the fray as I've had a chance to try Halion Strings. Here's the rub: To get the best sound you have to learn to play the mod wheel to control the sample layers. But this is incredibly difficult. Try it. It's like bowing on the mod wheel. OTOH, just using HAL Stgs in velocity sensitive mode sounds v ordinary by comparison. This raises the whole issue of playing instruments with a velocity sensitive keyboard. In spite of what Devon says, Hal stgs sounds v good when played with the mod wheel. Possibly other sample sets benefit the same way. Either way, a velo sensitive keyboard is a major obstacle regardless of how good the sample set. I'm sure the best midi orchestrators here spend more of their time midi editing to death than they do actually playing.

Oh yes, these guys spend about half their time editing and half writing. Just the way it is for orchestral. Not all the Giga libraries are 'only' mod wheel affects per articulation. Some are key switched, which is hitting like C, C#, D, D# on the lower registers of the keyboard to get it to switch. Least with sequncing, it's easy enough to do your pass on the keyboard, then do another pass to switch the articulations, and 'glue' them together. I wouldn't mind hearing a 'better' example of the HALion strings though, besides what Steiny did. I hate listening to almost always 'non-realistic' uses of the libraries, compared to the 'average' user. If you've listened to enough demos, you know what I'm referring to.

Devon

Any files need hosting ... send them over

k g

Oh, and Devon, when you get it together to do this--again, I know it's extra time you may not have right now--please put a few guidelines (on things like tempo and documenting instruments/software used) with it so we'll all be on the same page with it and anyone can figure out what's been done. Just zip it up.

I think this will be a very instructive exercise. And, kevvvvv, thanks for offering to host this.

it's such a hard decision to make.. and so subjective..

one man's heaven is another man's scapey bow and all that

i think i will cough up for the Akai GOS until the EXS is available... by then i should be able to have listened to more ... either VSL or QLSO..

and maybe prices will have melted a little...

Well guys hi everyone and thank yuo so much!!!!!!

Great, i have a hugh list of synth and libraries. I grouped them and here they are: further suggestions, commetnts or whtsoever are welcome!!!!

SOFTWARE:
SampleTank XL - Gigastudio - Jeskola XS-1 - Garritin Lite -
Edirol Orchestral
coming out: Absynth 2, SampleTank 2, The Cube, X-Phrase

String sections:
Symphonic libraries:
Garritan Orchestral Strings (Lite edition) -
Symphonic String Collection from Sonic Implant -
VSL - BH Cello - Violin STRAD V1 .soundsite.net
Symphony Strings www.kirkhunterstudios.com -
steinbugs halion string edition
Symphonic Orchestra Volume 1 Strings

Solo strings:
Kirk Hunter Solo Strings - Dan Dean Solo Woodwinds
www.dandeanpro.com

Brass :SAM Horns, SAM Trombones
Bigga Orchestral Brass - Dan Dean Solo Brass - Kirk Hunter
Brass Ensembles - Dan Dean Brass Ensembles - Symphonic
Orchestra Volume 3 Brass

Various:
Mini Vitous library - Kirk Hunter Flute - Dan Dean Woodwinds -
symphonic Orchestra Volume 2 Woodwinds -
Symphonic Orchestra Volume 4 Percussion - SAM Horns-QLSO

Various Links:

Garritan www.garritan.com - Symphony Strings www.kirkhunterstudios.com - http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-155
VSL www.vsl.co.at - QLSO Strings www.soundsonline.com

sampler:NI Kontakt or Steinberg Halion2 + miroslav's samplecd's http://www.ilio.com/miraslov/master/index.html
Or http://www.ilio.com/vienna/cube


C u!

Rob

dkistner wrote:

Oh, and Devon, when you get it together to do this--again, I know it's extra time you may not have right now--please put a few guidelines (on things like tempo and documenting instruments/software used) with it so we'll all be on the same page with it and anyone can figure out what's been done. Just zip it up. I think this will be a very instructive exercise. And, kevvvvv, thanks for offering to host this.

Well, I left the general tempo around 120 bpm. The articulatiosn are on the thread that I chose in what order, and this was with Gigastudio with Garritan Strings Lite.

Devon

fitch wrote:

it's such a hard decision to make.. and so subjective.. one man's heaven is another man's scapey bow and all that i think i will cough up for the Akai GOS until the EXS is available... by then i should be able to have listened to more ... either VSL or QLSO.. and maybe prices will have melted a little...

I wouldn't count on those prices 'melting' anytime soon, Claire. That's just what I've heard so far.

And the heaven/scapey bow this is too true. I have a hard time believing some people that they think something is 'so wonderful'....

Devon

What kind of reverb are you lot using with orchestral arrangements? Are you relying on the ambience included in the samples?

I just had a look at SuperConductor and it does sound very good with the string quartets, but there's no way of telling what the full product is like in terms of sound quality.

Also, the demo doesn't allow export of midi files - I'm wondering the extent to which SuperConductor can add realism to midi files - how much of the extra simulated expression is retained after export?

chagzuki wrote:

I just had a look at SuperConductor and it does sound very good with the string quartets, but there's no way of telling what the full product is like in terms of sound quality.

I worked with SuperConductor Pro for several years. I can answer questions about it, but we should start a new thread. Wanna do that?

Yes. It doesn't look very easy to get into/user friendly, so that'd be good.

I'll start one.