I have a desktop PC and a laptop machine and most vsti's with challenge response copy protection allow you to use at least two installs. Now the hard drive on my desktop machine died, so I replaced it, re-installed Windows XP re-installed my apps, and vsti's, Now cannot use a bunch of my bought and paid for vsti's since I can't get codes until a warm body is around to respond to my emails since I've exceeded my limit. Whoever thought of this copy protection schemes really knew how to screw with people. Guess I'll wait till tomorrow to try and make music again, good thing I'm not on any deadline.

/rant off

which plug(s) was it?

But it stops piracy! Stops crackers dead. Best thing anybody ever did. Saves money. Protects YOUR investment. It's all good.

Mighty_Hero wrote:

which plug(s) was it?

I have several that use this scheme, Atmosphere, Stylus, Sampletank, V-Station (which is the one I'm currently waiting on).

pough wrote:

But it stops piracy! Stops crackers dead. Best thing anybody ever did. Saves money. Protects YOUR investment. It's all good.

I agree some kind of protection is good for the companies, I prefer the ones that check the CD w/Serial Number upon installation only, like the ones from NI do (Absynth, Pro-53) and also hate the ones that do random CD checks like Moog Modular V.

that was a joke of coarse

pough wrote:

But it stops piracy! Stops crackers dead. Best thing anybody ever did. Saves money. Protects YOUR investment. It's all good.

synthetica wrote:

.... Whoever thought of this copy protection schemes really knew how to screw with people. Guess I'll wait till tomorrow to try and make music again, good thing I'm not on any deadline. /rant off

It would be nice if people would/could update review entries to replace "unknown" copy protections as appropriate.

I refuse to buy challenge-response software, which at this point has eliminated any new-update NI software, Atmosphere, Stylus, Sampletank, and V-Station for starters. The only thing "more unacceptable" is Pace.

topaz wrote:

that was a joke of coarse

I kinda thought so but you never know around here

Challenge and Response is definately the worst! Well dongles are bad too IMO, and I definately won't buy a dongle protected plug-in, so I guess dongles are really the worst. What sucks about Challenge and Response though, is the downtime when for some reason you can't get an authorization when you should be able to (had this problem with IK), then the changing of hardware requiring a new code, and limited amounts of codes issued. Come on, it doesn't help anyone and really just pisses off registered users. My favorite forms of copy protection are (in order) no copy protection at all, and a CD check at install only. At least most of the smaller devs stick to the former, and thats why I still prefer indie developers over the big boys (aside from the pricing).

What amazes me is people still knowingly buy this added benefit, Like a benefit of a challenge and response, I mean that just beggars belief.

Hi I need to have a few days off while you get round to authorizing my purchased licensed software.

What they should introduce too is the customer rebate scheme. Hi its now been a few hours since my request for an authorization and according to the new rebate scheme any authorizing that takes longer than five hours means for each hour over that you the software vendor gives me money. Heck can you emagen they would be out of business in two days.

The Pace, buy our software we have PACE. PACE is COOL, PACE can really fuck up your computer, it comes at a price, we the software vendor needs to support you the customer, for this the price goes up. Support cost money, you the customer pays us the money and we support you. You will need support we the software vendor have introduced PACE.

The dongle, heck it broke, so buy another one. OK silly me the customer will oblige. Oh! that’s real good of you software vendor going to send me a new dongle, ok how long. Only a couple of weeks. WOW!

The computer hardware lock----- you system has changed, you took something out or put something in. You are a not who you say you are, upgrade, reinstall. HAHA!

Buggered if I am going to mess around with all that.

Spe3d

I will not say that I refuse to buy software that uses challenge responce, but I try to avoid it. Right now I have GigaStudio, Tassman, LoungeLizzard, SampleTankLE, and now Reaktor 4. Tassman and Reaktor 4 evolved into that format. (The Tassman 3 that came with Sonar XL had no protection.) I would love to pick up Atmosphere, Trilogy or Stylus, but not enough to deal with another channelge-responce system.

I did not realize V-Station used challenge responce. How about the Cube? If not, that will be my determining factor in choosing it over VStation. Also, anyone know what the Plugsound series uses?

Robert

Didn't we go through this before?

My suggestion is that we compile a list of all the software that screws you in one way or another when you purchase it. Not just copy protection schemes, but things like Image Line and the Fruity Loops box scam (they get more than $5 from each boxed version, I asked somebody from cakewalk). That way we can have a knowledge base of this info readily available before we make any more boneheaded purchases (also avoiding the "evils of copy protection" threads).

Just my take on the whole matter.

7XL

It would be nice if the instrument section here had accurate copy protection information. Atmosphere and Trilogy are listed as Serial Number under the copy protection information. Reaktor still lists dongle and Tassman just says unknown.

Robert

Rabid wrote:

I did not realize V-Station used challenge responce. How about the Cube? If not, that will be my determining factor in choosing it over VStation. Also, anyone know what the Plugsound series uses? Robert

Cube is serial number per http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20824&start=15

Plugsound and VStation are both C/R. That's why I struck Plugsound from my list, even at the attractive price they were running not long ago at Guitar Center.

I'll speak with my dollars, esp when I already have more VSTI's than I can justify (and just bought Angelina).

Doug

7XL wrote:

Not just copy protection schemes, but things like Image Line and the Fruity Loops box scam (they get more than $5 from each boxed version, I asked somebody from cakewalk).

What do you mean by this? Who gets the money, and why is it so bad that someone gets $5 when something is sold? It sounds like you're saying that Image Line/Fruity make $5 when they sell a boxed version and they don't deserve that much, but you must mean something else... no?

I think he is referring to a post in which someone from Imageline stated the reason they don't include free upgrades to the box version is because they only make $5 per unit on those.

Robert

Let me clarify that. image Line sells a boxed version of Fruity Loops for more money, they give you 1 upgrade, then they want more money for the "free" lifetime upgrades.

When asked about this they claim that they lose money on the boxed version. When I asked somebody at Cakewalk, they informed my the IL approached them about selling FL, and even with Project 5 coming out they still wanted them to sell it. I also learned that they, IL, get something like $70 dollars from each boxed version, not the "small amount" that was claimed. when we sat down and did the math we figured out that theywere getting the same amount of money if you opted for the lifetime free upgrade path.

They went on to claim that it was justified because you got a free synth (Dreamstation that I already own as a SONAR user) and some free samples(wow). And boxed users also get a manual (although the one that is included in the program seems to be better writgen).

Well from where I sit this is just bogus.Why? Because the boxed version cost more.

I went on a rant about it a few months back, but I just let the matter drop. They do make a good product, I just wish they would not try and snow the general public.

7XL

The menu on the left here at KVR would like nice with another option that said copy protection and had a list of what all known vsti copy protection schemes used (hint, hint, nudge, nudge)

And to add to that list anything by AAS, they have the most rediculous copy protection that I've ever seen. You get to register it once. Then you have to contact them if you need to reinstall it.

Bad driver screwed up your system on Friday, you have a recording gig on Saturday, they want to use the Tassman DXi (free with SONAR), you furiously rush to reformat your laptop (used for synths and loops in SONAR), you go to reinstall the 3.01 Tassman update, "No More Authorizations for This Serial", you clienet says he understands but walks away unsatisfied, you feel like crap.

That is what happened to me.

The same thing with the Lounge Lizard.

at least some companies let you register something twice before they screw you.

I know one product that I will not be recommending to anybody, I don't care how good it sounds.

7XL.

some of the above posts are not fair I feel.
Saying you won't buy software because you have to type something in, is a little harsh......I own all 3 plugs from spectrasonics, and have NEVER had to "wait" on a response.....it's automated from their site!
I installed trilogy and within 4 minutes, had my new code......same with stylus and atmosphere, in which I already used the other 3 up before due to hard drive crashes, installation on an exes laptop, and my original installation.
now PACE can be bad, so here I agree..........but even the challenge for sampletank was not bad......again I used all my other versions up as well, and simply called jason.....taken care of.
it really is not this bad as some have said

Mighty, for me it's a combination of two things:

1) When it IS bad, it's VERY bad. Initially, things go okay (see the forum for Waves products to see when things go bad from the get-go) but like 7XL said, having a gig and NEEDing a new code means a potential loss of money and credibility. Bottom line: using these products can mean your name is mud. Oh, and if they go out of business, who will be supplying new codes?

2) Challenge/response or no challenge/response, there will be cracks. So what's the point? All it ends up doing, really, is punishing the paying customers. So how do I want to treat a company that willfully punishes me for buying their product (a product that can make me look bad, as per reason number 1)? Well, I want to punish them right back by not buying their product.

These are the reasons that I feel so strongly about this. Sure, things work just fine for a lot of people and for a lot of the time, but it would work better even more often if there weren't bad copyright protection schemes programmed into things.

that is fair to say, most people have no trouble, but some do.....I can agree with this, and needing a plug RIGHT then as well.
I was saying we all can't blanket this registration as a whole, as being bad.
for me, if I am waiting or something isn't right......I'm on the phone with someone.....you would be surprised how quick sometimes you get an answer by talking to someone, verses waiting it out

True. Waves support is bad by email and nonexistent on their forums. I hear they're good over the phone, but since they work the same hours that I do, I've never found out.

But I think that my points make it clear (to me, anyways) that we (or I) can blanket this method of copyright protection as bad. Bad for the people who pay for it. I don't know how anyone can see it as even remotely positive. Not even the people who sell the software. I wonder if it's just for insurance or legal purposes?

It kind of reminds me of this!

pough wrote:

Mighty, for me it's a combination of two things: 1) When it IS bad, it's VERY bad. Initially, things go okay (see the forum for Waves products to see when things go bad from the get-go) but like 7XL said, having a gig and NEEDing a new code means a potential loss of money and credibility. Bottom line: using these products can mean your name is mud. Oh, and if they go out of business, who will be supplying new codes? 2) Challenge/response or no challenge/response, there will be cracks. So what's the point? All it ends up doing, really, is punishing the paying customers. So how do I want to treat a company that willfully punishes me for buying their product (a product that can make me look bad, as per reason number 1)? Well, I want to punish them right back by not buying their product. These are the reasons that I feel so strongly about this. Sure, things work just fine for a lot of people and for a lot of the time, but it would work better even more often if there weren't bad copyright protection schemes programmed into things.

Why skip out on good products because the copy protection sucks? It's so darn easy to pick up the cracks to just about anything. So what you do when you legit buy a product, make sure to get the crack along with it, and just skip the nightmare altogether after you did your first registration. I have no guilt whatsoever working around their stupid copy protection when I already own and paid for the product.

Really, does any developer on here care if I use a crack or key generator for their product when they already have my cash, honestly? Or would any of them dare answer my question? It only stops the casual user from getting an illegit product, but doesn't stop the determined.

Devon

That's a good point, Devon. I would have no troubles using cracked versions of products I bought, except three things: I'm bad at finding them, I don't really trust the people who make them and they come out even later than the already long wait for updates. I know the Waves products, in particular, are well known for having legit users using cracks. I don't, personally, for the three reasons mentioned above.

Using a crack on a registered product does not send a message to the developer. In fact it lets them off the hook with the lack of complaining they recive from the consumer plus the lack of support requests.

Also by using a crack you are in fact a supporter of pirated software, you are playing into the thoughts of the crackers.

The biggest crime is being done by the software vendor who incorporates these schemes.

And I simply will not be forced to use a cracked version of anything and likewise I will not support the software vendors who offer any type of crappy customer service. Its one thing that can really piss me off, and that’s not an easy thing to do I might add.

I don’t support software crackers nor do I support the companies who incorporate these fucked up schemes. Is my feeling on this showing through yet!


Spe3d

Yup.

The things is, I bought some of this stuff before I had even heard of these shit copyright protection schemes. I know I sent a few emails saying how much I hate it, but now I either have to use them or let them sit on my shelf. Either way, the company already has my money.

DevonB wrote:

So what you do when you legit buy a product, make sure to get the crack along with it, and just skip the nightmare altogether after you did your first registration. I have no guilt whatsoever working around their stupid copy protection when I already own and paid for the product.

Man, Devon, you hit that one on the head.

I feel the same way, by the way. I would never use a crack unless I was a registered user of that version of the program. And I've never had to use a crack to get around copy protection schemes that made it difficult for me to use software I've paid for. In part because I just don't buy software that I know ahead of time uses those schemes, SampleTank being my first (and probably last) exception.

But I'd have no guilt whatsoever about installing a "backup crack," because I would not have stolen anything from the company...although it could in some cases be argued that they stole time and good faith from me. And if a company wants to drag paying customers into court and sue them for using cracks of the exact same thing they paid good money for, I say, "Go for it! Give it everything you've got! Let's set a precedent here!" God, they'd lose from the bad word of mouth alone, no matter what the judgment was.

Mighty_Hero wrote:

that is fair to say, most people have no trouble, but some do.....I can agree with this, and needing a plug RIGHT then as well. I was saying we all can't blanket this registration as a whole, as being bad. for me, if I am waiting or something isn't right......I'm on the phone with someone.....you would be surprised how quick sometimes you get an answer by talking to someone, verses waiting it out

I don't have a problem with registering software. I have a problem with machine-configuration-dependent registrations, because at the moment I don't have the luxury of a dedicated music machine (although that could change). In some cases, reinstalling the OS forces reauthorization*. In other cases, it may be triggered by adding an extra hard drive to hold all your gigs of samples.

And while I have been fortunate to not have to deal with music software vendors over the phone, I *have* dealt with other vendors... on hold... long distance... on my dime...**

Doug
* and the three R's of Microsoft are "Reboot, Reinstall, or fixed in next Release"
** yes, I work In I.T.

For those who are interested, I STILL don't have my Auth codes for V-Station and no response to emails, etc. Also the only number they list is for the UK and I am in the US so it would be an expensive phone call. Guess I won't be buying anymore Novation products since I can't even use the ones I already paid for.

pough wrote:

But it stops piracy! Stops crackers dead. Best thing anybody ever did. Saves money. Protects YOUR investment. It's all good.

Yeah right... I have yet to see ANY copy protection that was not cracked... it's an excuse to screw legit customers, that's what it is...

Yes... it was a joke, I get it...

Anyways, synthetica, would you mind telling us which plug is causing you the trouble? I though that most of the challenge/response plugs allow at least for a couple of days usage without the code (so that the customer has at least time to resolve the issue without totally being screwed)!?

c_huelsbeck wrote:

... it's an excuse to screw legit customers, that's what it is...

It's not an excuse to screw legit customers. I can't imagine that anybody would actually want to do that (even though that's precisely what they're doing.) I don't think they're evil. Just stupid^H^H^H^H^H^Hmisguided.

pough wrote:

c_huelsbeck wrote: ... it's an excuse to screw legit customers, that's what it is... It's not an excuse to screw legit customers. I can't imagine that anybody would actually want to do that (even though that's precisely what they're doing.) I don't think they're evil. Just stupid^H^H^H^H^H^Hmisguided.

In most cases it is... for example, it is used by a lot of software makers to try to enforce single machine licensing. Some allow for 2 installs and some good-hearted developers even allow more than that, but if I have a studio full of system linked machines I guess I have to buy more than one license... I personally don't see any difference between that kind of usage and using multiple instances of a plugin on one machine... it's a classic example of control... the music industry is trying the same kind of limiting the customer what to do with legit music downloads, the whole digital rights managment stuff... what makes me angry is that I really care about using legit software, but I get screwed and limited by doing so... the crack-user next door just laughs and takes the easy ride...

In my view only ImageLine handles the challenge responce system well. I can install FL on either of my home PC's, my laptop, and my work computer. When I upgrade a computer or recover from a crash I can install again with no problem. They can monitor the IP address of those installs and see that only two addresses have been used. One for home and one for work. The flaw may be with people who change ISP's frequently, but I have heard no one with a valid complaint about registration problems with FL.

Robert

Rabid wrote:

In my view only ImageLine handles the challenge responce system well. I can install FL on either of my home PC's, my laptop, and my work computer. When I upgrade a computer or recover from a crash I can install again with no problem. They can monitor the IP address of those installs and see that only two addresses have been used. One for home and one for work. The flaw may be with people who change ISP's frequently, but I have heard no one with a valid complaint about registration problems with FL. Robert

Bad for dynamic IP addresses, which is what? Most of the internet?

Devon

Rabid wrote:

In my view only ImageLine handles the challenge responce system well. I can install FL on either of my home PC's, my laptop, and my work computer. When I upgrade a computer or recover from a crash I can install again with no problem. They can monitor the IP address of those installs and see that only two addresses have been used. One for home and one for work. The flaw may be with people who change ISP's frequently, but I have heard no one with a valid complaint about registration problems with FL. Robert

Last I heard, the C/R on FL Studio was only on 4.0 - my 4.1 didn't have it, neither did my 3.56. Guess they learned from the issues raised... (and yes, their policy was much more reasonable than many).

Doug

Sonic Foundry do this very well. It's automatic, and allows thirty days of unlimited use without authorization any way. They also allow a lot of re-registrations beofre they ask you to email or phone. When I phoned, they agreed with me that Windows can require up to weekly re-installation, and doubled the number of re-registrations allowed before the next call.

If all comanies followed this model, I would actually prefer it to many other methods - no CD swapping, very easy installation (with a fast internet connection).

e.