Ok, some might think it's pointless, but I'd really like a soft synth/drum machine that emulates the classic dance drum machines. I'm of thinking something like the Novation D Station. Not just samples but tons of control. I already have the native Orion drums generator and DR-008, and I've tried stuff like Ers drums and Drumatic, but they are not quite there. This could probably be implemented in some sort of DR-008 module (which would be way cool), or novation could do a software port of their hardware synth. There are loads of 303 emulations that strives to get the sound right, but as far as I know there are no direct 808 and 909 emulations (Rebirth possibly, but I want VSTi)?. If this really is pointless and I should stop gibbering, then just point me to some excellent 808, 909 kits/samplecds.

The Wizoo Platinum 24 Electronic Drums (AKAI Format) are all 808 and 909 samples and are truly excellent....apparently it's the only one to be endorsed by Roland.

It's also on sale for $30 right now at www.wizoo.com - Hard to say no to, I'm very happy with it.

Best wishes,

LG

I thought the 808 and 909 kits that came with the Linplug RM3 were pretty good. Not a true emulation, of course, but I suspect that anyone who really wants that sound either has the original or a good sample set.

-David, who used to own a 707 and doesn't miss it.

It's only Akai s1000 though, so sadly not compatible with anything I have. The Orion sampler is s5000/6000 only. Perhaps Novation will follow the release of their Bass Station vsti with a DStation vsti. Keeping my fingers crossed.

It's an interesting question. It doesn't seem as if people are as interested in nailing the 808 or 909 as they are the 303. Samples aren't the same thing because they can't be automated in the same ways as a synth.

You're tried not just Drumatic but also Drumatic 2, right? That's my favorite synth drum VSTi at the moment. (The ErsDrum is very distinctive and only works now and then in a mix for mem but when it works, it really works.)

I bought the Computer Music with the CM505 on the disc and was quite disappointed. Not a single patch lived up to the crummiest Drumatic 2 patch. But I had some luck when sending it through GreaseTube, of all things! Go figure.

well, since novation are on the vsti craze, i wouldn't be surprised if they released the drumstation (seriously)
not that i'd have any use for it, there are plenty of capable 909 samples floating around...matched with an rm4 = heaven:)

speaking of novation, i hope they release a supernova vsti. that would make me cream my jeans

Hey Breakpete....

You can convert them using a tool like CDXtract, Extreme Sample Converter, etc. Does the Orion sampler support SF2 or any other format? Hopefully one of these tools can convert them into a format that you can use. At $30 these samples are a real steal!

In fact, I want to take a moment and pimp Wizoo's Platinum 24 series. I also own the Latin Percussion volume, paid $99 USD for it, and and IMO it's worth it's weight in gold. I've converted a lot of the samples and moved them to a smartmedia card so I can trigger them right out of my Yamaha drum trigger module for live playing, and they sound better than any of the built-in sounds. If you ever need a good library of latin percussion multisamples, I don't think that you could do any better.

Cheers,
LG

I can hook you up with some 24/96 samples of my 808 if you like, I will need to record them, but that shouldn't take too long.

people who really want/need a real emulation aren't looking for samples. if somebody would come up with a good 808/909 emulation, i'd be happy as well. and yes, i've already got tons of 808/909 samples. NO, i don't need any more.

hint: the thread "i'm looking for a nice 808/909 drumsamples" is somewhere else.



ronny

Quote:

hint: the thread "i'm looking for a nice 808/909 drumsamples" is somewhere else.

So very sorry if my OT comments offended anyone. I'll find a different thread to take my suggestions to.

Good job policing the posts Ronny, perhaps you have Moderator aspirations somewhere in those Pries of yours.

Take a deep breath,sir!Nothing to get fired up about!
I think he was referring to this thread;
http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13196
ew

Ah I'm just being snarky on purpose because I'm in a cheeky mood today....just a couple hours away from a 4-day weekend at the cottage....

Nothing fired up over here )

gohei's got a 909 up.. dunno how he did it but presented as 909 emu.

what about the waldorf attack. it is a vst drumsynth with 808 and 909 presets though i can't say how close to the originals it is, but it is not samples at least

Weren't the 909's shakers, tabourine, and hi-hat/cymbal sounds all sample based?

The 909 kick and snare are easy to recreate with Attack (or just about any synth) as are the 808's Kick, snare, and hihats. That 808 ride cymbal escapes me though... I don't think Attack can do it for some reason.

I do wish Attack had a larger selection of samples to choose from. You cannot reproduce those crappy (but oh so good...?) 909 hihat samples with Attack.

I think FruityLoop's DrumSynth does a wonderful job - but I don't think you can get it as a VSTi.

What host are you using. Included with Sonar is the Sound Canvas that's supposed to sound exactly like the original sound canvas.

I vote for a REAL 808/909 emulation as well.

Hey anoraks,

THANKS!

When they finally make a perfect emulation of an x0x I'll be able to make some decent music.

Keep up the pressure on the developers.

Was there something so terribly wring with Propellerhead's Rebirth 338? It's got the plague and people forgot to tell me about it? Or it is THAT horrible compared to the original? I've never heard the original, so I can't commment, but I played with it like 5 years ago. Pretty decent, or so I thought. It's got 808, 909 and a 303.

http://www.propellerheads.se/

Devon

DevonB wrote:

Was there something so terribly wring with Propellerhead's Rebirth 338?

Just this:

Breakpete wrote:

Rebirth possibly, but I want VSTi

But the typo makes it look like "wiring" instead of "wrong" so it ends up making a strange sort of sense...

DevonB wrote:

Was there something so terribly wring with Propellerhead's Rebirth 338? It's got the plague and people forgot to tell me about it? Or it is THAT horrible compared to the original? I've never heard the original, so I can't commment, but I played with it like 5 years ago. Pretty decent, or so I thought. It's got 808, 909 and a 303. http://www.propellerheads.se/ Devon

Good enough for musicians, Dev. Maybe not for synth spotters.

having used both rebirth and a real 303 /808, I can say that the software is 95% authentic sounding for most uses, and rebirth is slightly "smoother" sounding. I still have my 808, but it mainly collects dust now, I play with it everyonce in a while, and use it for percussion through many efx.

My feeling is that people think that since rebirth is close to 6 years old, there is no way it can be a viable alternative for a 303. Maybe I just don't understand, since I find little use for either instrument, and think that finding new sounds is more fun than recreating old, overused ones...

i personally think rebirth is awesome but has one problem...it's not vsti/dxi and i use fruity most of the time. i wish they would simply release all of the rebirth system in modular vsti/vst components...an 808, 909, 303, PCF filter, compression, delay, and distortion.

i can't really see why they are resistant to this idea except that with all of the hosts they have to support the technical aspect might become time consuming. although with the demand they could probably cash in on a dead program. in any case, the 808/909 on rebirth are awesome and i usually end up just rendering and slicing in flp.

There a nice 909-type ensemble in the Reaktor user library called CL-909....now this I use a fair bit although I am not sure how close it is to the sounds of the 909. Loads of control though which is what I like

PatchArena wrote:

There a nice 909-type ensemble in the Reaktor user library called CL-909....now this I use a fair bit although I am not sure how close it is to the sounds of the 909. Loads of control though which is what I like

Yeah,and the version Chris put up either last night or today is even more fun
ew

I'm a bit behind with the Reaktor ensembles....I think I'll go and see what I'm missing now...thanks for the tip-off ew

Sample sets of both machines here:
http://spec.ch.man.ac.uk/~ashley/drums.html

If I remember correctly, only one of the 909's sounds was sample-based.

Quote:

If I remember correctly, only one of the 909's sounds was sample-based.

The crash, hihat's and ride are samples. All the rest is synthesized.

PJ

These threads are always funny:

"I want a real emulation - not a fake emulation!"

Forever,





Kim.

the quote below is from the PropellorHead web site
now that's how a talented company does a real emulation
don't sample or study the sound on the output end, look at how it makes the sound

I don't get this whole emulation fever. I own an old Oberheim Matrix 12. My wife would never let me get rid of it. I like it, but I think something like Albino goes in the same direction and actually sounds better. It's probably only recently that anyone could consider implementing the modulation matrix available on something like the Matrix 12.

And hey, I'm still trying to figure out why drums sound so good in FL Studio. I ran some Pro Audio wav kits through Project-5's Velocity and FL Studio and they sound a lot better in FL Studio, but even with considerable manipulation (which is one of the wonder of FL) they don't sound as good as the kits that come with FL (including the 808 and 909 kits) and I can't coment because I don't know what they're 'supposed' to sound like.
My simple conclusion is good drum sounds result from the combo of quality drum synth and (pre-compressed?)samples. I like drums with some boom, slap and snap and until I can afford to go with Linplug RM-IV, FL Studio has enough for me.

Introduction - What is this thing?

ReBirth 2.0.1 is the software reincarnation of two analog bassline synths and two classic drum machines. ...

Does all this sound like a miracle? Here's how we did it: Instead of sampling the sound, we "sampled" the actual synth hardware. It was a question of analyzing the mysterious inner workings of the analog design, and then creating at mathematical model of it, incorporating practically every nuance. Then we converted this theoretical model into lightning fast computer code. So fast that it runs on the computer you already have. No customized cards, DSP chips or other expensive accessories are required.

I would recomend the Waldorf Attack. One of the few real vsti drum synths around. One of the best kept drum synth secrets in my book. I think most people don't know what it is really like cos there is no demo available.

Waldorf deemed it so good that they invested in makin a hardware version of it. Now that is the first time that has ever happened. Hardware emulatin software

But for electronic drum sounds I don't use anything else. Admittedly the 808 and 909 kits aren't 100% exactly like the real thing but it is a drum synth all the same with lots of knobs to tweak. Plus it is great for little fill in FX and it is a good bass synth too.

Attack does take a little while to get into but if you follow the manual it is no trouble. All you need to understand is the audio routing and the control routing signals. Any time that you invest in it you will definately reap the benefits. The manual also has tutorials on how to create the 808/909 sounds yerself.

If you are into the electronic sound then it is very good for that. Not forgetting all the other kits too. The Attack sits good in a mix aswell.
I like the way that if you want to add some extra bass to yer kick you just set one of the ocs to be a low sine wave to give it a real thumpin sound.

Cos it is a synth it means you can modulate ALL the controls nicely from sequencers that support automation like Orion or Cubase SX, it also supports midi cc's aswell. I find this can give a beat loads of feel and variation.

Other synth drums I like are the Reaktor 3 da Holy Drums [I think that what they are called...] real simple, Kick, Snare, Hi-Hat trio that do the lot with a real bite.

Failing that try the SynthEdit community, bound to be someone who will make a pretty good 808/909 even if it sample based underneath.


enjoy.

Harry

Drumatic was ment to be an 808 emulation... Getting the perfect sound was too difficult so i changed the plan a bit...
It still can get close on most of the sounds, but i won't call it an emulation because there's much more to tweak then in the 808.

I personally don't like Attack because of the sound quality.
I think it sounds a bit harsh and thin... also... where's the bass in the kicks?
Did you ever get a decent clap out of it?
I only like the hihats with the very cool sample based hihat oscillator.

I'm mostly looking for simple electronic drum sounds... Attack is way to complex for that.

PJ

e-phonic wrote:

Drumatic was ment to be an 808 emulation... Getting the perfect sound was too difficult so i changed the plan a bit... It still can get close on most of the sounds, but i won't call it an emulation because there's much more to tweak then in the 808.

What makes the 808 so hard to nail?

For example..
-The oscillators are actually self resonating filters... You'll need the right filter for that in SE.
-I had troubles when I tried to make the really stable sounding click at the beginning of most sounds... you can hear this best with the bassdrum.
-The correct filtered noise for the snaredrum...
-THE CLAP!!!! (aaarrrrgg, very difficult) I have a nice one in Drumatic but it doesn't sound like the 808.
- The hihats... these are made of 6 (or 8, don't remember) detuned square waves, filtered with band and high pass filters.... 6 oscillators means a high CPU load for only one sound...
... these are just a few things i had troubles with...

PJ

Quote:

I own an old Oberheim Matrix 12. My wife would never let me get rid of it. I like it, but I think something like Albino goes in the same direction and actually sounds better. It's probably only recently that anyone could consider implementing the modulation matrix available on something like the Matrix 12.

i HAVE AN aLBINO. iNTERESTED IN A TRADE???

I'll free you from that horrible Oberheim and we'll both be wery happy.

I'm a frequent reader of Sound on Sound, and earlier this year the Synth Secrets series talked about synthesising drums, with explanations of how the 909 and 808 did it. Of particular interest was the section on bass drums, which can be found here.. in short:

The bassdrum of the 909 is a sawtooth wave that goes through a waveshaper (resulting in an almost sine wave, but with a slight bit of harmonics that give it the distinctive 909 sound), mixed with a short pulse for the click.

The bassdrum of the 808 is a bridged t-network (which is a sort of self-oscillating oscillator), mixed in with the actual trigger signal (a cv pulse), through a lowpass filter. It also goes slightly flat over time.

As you can see, both circuits use non-standard designs, which is why they are hard to emulate with normal drum synthesisers. Rebirth's 909 and 808 are actually samples, some of which are fed through filters.

Quote:

the quote below is from the PropellorHead web site now that's how a talented company does a real emulation don't sample or study the sound on the output end, look at how it makes the sound

Nonsense like this always raises a smile. After all, the "emulated" 808/909's in Rebirth are nothing more than a multisample - and you can replace the samples with anything you like when you do a mod.

Nothing like a nice bit of marketing hyperbole though - no-one yet as far as I know is doing component-level modelling to such a level where we're doing PSpice-type stuff in realtime. Most people are doing what you could call block-level modelling, where the oscillator/filter/envelope sections etc. are emulated as "black boxes" where we know the control signal inputs and the generate the appropriate output by whatever algorithm is appropriate to our technical needs (speed, complexity, quality etc.).

A good example is the 808 hihat circuit. If I was going to model this, I'd set up some square wave oscillators at different frequencies, ring modulate them and then pass them through a high pass filter. This gives a very good approximation of the 808 hihat and cymbal and can easily be realised in a Reaktor ensemble or suchlike. We're certainly not going down to the level of modelling individual Schmidtt triggers but we're simulating the overall block diagram very well.

For emulated drums, I always rather like the ErsDrums modules back in the Buzz days. A lot of these sounded very authentic to me - and I believe that Andreas has done a VSTi version which is probably worth checking out. Of course, DR-008 is the daddy though: MDA's Paul Kellet designed much of the drum emulation in this software and that should be enough of a recommendation for anyone

Regards
Dave

Muon Software Ltd wrote:

no-one yet as far as I know is doing component-level modelling to such a level where we're doing PSpice-type stuff in realtime.

I posted a few musings about this a while ago. http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16470&highlight=spice

Have you looked into spice modelling Dave? If so, how far away from having the required processing power do you think we are?

It's true the Buzz ErsDrums are great. The VSTi ErsDrums is great, too. But Drumatic 2 is my current favorite of all. It's my default drum machine, but sometimes I'll switch to ErsDrums for a change.

Is Dr008 really any better than Drumatic?

I think we're a long way off. The problem is not really to get a sample-rate circuit simulation going, the problem is then removing the inevitable aliasing. You'd have to run the simulation at a very high multiple of the target sample rate and decimate with a near-perfect low pass filter to remove the aliasing from a component-modelled oscillator.

I can see something like this maybe working well for filters though, except there's stuff like moog ladders which have zero-delay feedback loops. That sort of stuff doesn't work in the traditional filter maths way and I don't see how zero-delay feedback loops could be implemented in something like Spice either - although having said that I'm no expert on this subject.

Regards
Dave

Found this, but there doesnt appear to be a download link



http://www.vastny.evilconspiracy.com/vr909.php

From this site:

http://www.vastny.evilconspiracy.com/products.php

Hmmm...might not be worthwhile getting a whole sequencer in order to have a synth but:
I find the Muzynth in Muzys makes for a splendid drum synth too!

Marco

Kriminal wrote:

Found this, but there doesnt appear to be a download link http://www.vastny.evilconspiracy.com/vr909.php From this site: http://www.vastny.evilconspiracy.com/products.php

This one looks nice, too bad it ain't possible to download

Actually, now that Roland have released their VariOS hardware with 303 emulation software, perhaps 808 and 909 synths will follow. Too bad it's £999.

Anyways, thanks for all of your suggestions. The Orion sampler does support SF2, so I can convert cds like the platinum 24 electronic drums with the appropriate software. For now though, I'll just make do with what I have and keep a steady eye fixed at novation.

Btw, Muon Software Ltd, seeing as you just released the great Tau2 bassline synth, why not take a look at the drum side of things too?

Quote:

Btw, Muon Software Ltd, seeing as you just released the great Tau2 bassline synth, why not take a look at the drum side of things too?

We've thought about it (Neutron was *originally* intended as a modelling drum synth like Attack) - I've even researched the 808 exteremely closely and started to develop a base of measurements etc. No doubt if I got an 808 into the Muon studio we could very easily figure out the finer details and develop a software emulation same way we did with the 303.

Thing is though, I personally think that software like DR-008 does it so well that there'd be little point. Believe me, if you want synth drum sounds or sampled drum sounds, this is the software you want. Angus doesn't pay me to say this but he probably should

Regards
Dave

Actually, I already have DR-008 and I like it, but it's not dedicated to purely do the 808 and 909 sounds. Also I'd like the GUI to be in the spirit of things. While I admire the DR-008 GUI for it's ease of use, it's not very inspiring to look at. For me that is actually an important aspect of the software (although ease of use is much more important), as it makes me want to delve a bit deeper into it. I know it's purely psychological and has nothing to do with sound quality, but I think a lot of people feel the same way. The GUI issue will probably be sorted in a later version of DR-008.
I guess what I'm saying is that for this kind of job I'd like a one trick pony.
I have no doubt though, that should FXpansion decide to release a combination of samples and custom built modules with the spesific aim to create a realistic of 808/909 emulation, it would probably be very good indeed.

safeaim wrote:

Kriminal wrote: Found this, but there doesnt appear to be a download link http://www.vastny.evilconspiracy.com/vr909.php From this site: http://www.vastny.evilconspiracy.com/products.php This one looks nice, too bad it ain't possible to download

Ah....I found the download link - it seems like the font for the download link was colour white (the same colour as the background). Damn this is a sweet plugin

Quote:

Ah....I found the download link - it seems like the font for the download link was colour white (the same colour as the background). Damn this is a sweet plugin

uuh.. i cannot find it! where is it?

There is no link, i checked the source on each page, nothing there. They are projects in developement, bar one, the 303 emulator.

erm....sorry

I really like Orion's Xr-909, but saidly enough it isn't available as Vst instrument so I'm forced to use Orion platinum which unfortunatly is quite limited compared to Cubase sx.
Xr-909 is simple and just gives me those particular sounds I need, with a little EQ and the Waves C4 plugin it just makes the perfect bassdrum.

PatchArena wrote:

erm....sorry

What ?
Just give us the damn link

Pleas

I think there's something to be said for one-trick ponies here. What I like about Tau2 is that the controls pretty well match the 303.

erm....sorry


Whew!!.....I was starting think I was a COMPLETE idiot!!

Cheers.....CL

Kriminal wrote:

Found this, but there doesnt appear to be a download link http://www.vastny.evilconspiracy.com/vr909.php From this site: http://www.vastny.evilconspiracy.com/products.php

Doesn't appear to be a valid link whatsoever - DAMN !!!

Superwave are developing both TR909 and 808 emulations. I think it is to be called the Superwave RT909, or something. I believe that they will be released before Christmas along with their new synths.

There's one little problem with emulating e.g. a 909. A friend of mine started writing a 909 emulation, he got the kick, the clap, the rim and snare quite well after a few days BUT the cpu usage... Don't dare asking about that. The ton of filters you need to exactly achieve the same sound costs cpu more than "just" drums should afford.

So, whoever makes the 909 authentic become real has got to be a real optimizing freak.

Ronny

I think he means the whole machine, like with a pattern sequnecer and all.