Searching for some presets on the net, I came across a link to a page with a forum where people were discussing their experiences with downloaded cracked versions of audio software and VSTi. One interesting thing I found while reading some of the post there about the "cracked" software not working properly is this. Apparently, there is some kind of a guy calling himself "0xdBass" who is releasing every single commercially available VSTi, and post it all over the place. At the same time, this guys (who also used to post some of his own VSTi awhile back at kvr-vst) is putting out non-working releases, sometime even with viruses. I couldn't make it out from the post if that was intentional or not, but seems to be a lot of people making their judgement about some of the great VSTi releases based on not-working crap that guy puts out.

OK, before we start here a big argument about "Yeah! Those guys deserve what they ask for not paying and for stealing", I just thought that it sucks cause some of those "warez" user could be potential buyers of this software. Of course, there are tons of freeloaders that collect all this software, and a number of people who get it and use it for free. But there are also a number of people who will use it without restriction and than will purchase it. I personally didn't know anything about music making until I came across a cracked version of Fruityloops 3.0 a couple of years ago. After using it for a short time and liking all the features, I bought it right away. Now, my music setup grew with software and hardware, but if I would get a "bad" crack of that program, I would probably just delete it of the hard drive....

That's why its sad that some idiot is either trying to make a point releasing bad cracks, or just doesn't know what the hell he is doing. And as a result, he is ruining reputation of lots of audio software developers.

who really gives a shit.

im more concerned about those illegal operations

Oxdbass's notworking releases are the ultimate copy protection

here we go :

sweeped

Native instruments- Now protected by MSBLASTER

i meant

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

but i was using a cracked version of zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
that is why it didn`t work

It's true that some people try out the cracked version of software and then buy it.

It's also true that some people buy software, and then download the crack because they find the copy protection onerous. Dongles, keys, dragons, oh my.

It's a shame that developers feel they have to put copy protection of their software due to theft concerns. Copy protection has scared me out of many purchases. I almost bought Tracktion but couldn't pull the trigger after thinking that every piece of music I made would be hostage to the continued existence of the company making it. What happens if he goes out of business and I get a new computer and can't get a key to run Traction anymore?

I still might buy it, but I'm less eager. A cracked version wouldn't work, either, since half the appeal of Traction is the frequent updates.

Spybot Search and Destroy found "CDilla" on my computer at work. I was tempted to nuke CDilla, then I realized I had to keep it for 3D Max's sake. Ugh.

It's a nasty situation. Mind you, I'm not on the side of the pirates--I'm on the side of the user. (And I'm a software developer as well for the last dozen years.)

Aaarrrgh!
I'm trying to read this and you've gone and fucked it ET.
Isn't it the forum equivilant of a virus to make the page
ultra wide?

As for the cracking issue -
this is the second thread where someone has accused
a KVR member of releasing cracks.
If this is based on evidence then dish
otherwise rumour is not a pretty thing.

I won't buy NI.
The copy protection on that Dynamo got me mad as hell
and I ain't gonna take it anymore.
Every time I loaded it it insisted I insert the CD.
If I ran the VST/DX adapter to update my VST folder
the same thing occured.
You can imagine how that would impact on someone
who likes to try out the Synthedit creations.

I suppose CD insertion is mild compared to dongles
but all the systems are bastards to live with.
I like Cakewalks method where a serial number is used.
Challenge and response isn't too bad if you've got
an internet connection so long as there is no time limit
or limited number of times it can be used.
Let's face it, if all these apps are being cracked why bother?

I know this subject has been done to death
but accusing someone of releasing cracks
is a more serious issue IMO.

Please remove that post that f*cks up the forum pls.

NEA wrote:

Please remove that post that f*cks up the forum pls.

There's a shortlist of thousands.

I rather like my post now - it reads like a bad 6th form poem.

mistertoast wrote:

I almost bought Tracktion but couldn't pull the trigger after thinking that every piece of music I made would be hostage to the continued existence of the company making it. What happens if he goes out of business and I get a new computer and can't get a key to run Traction anymore?

Jules has promised to release Tracktion as freeware if he goes out of business, so in this case it's not a concern. Other companies that aren't so friendly are of more concern to me...

>>Jules has promised to release Tracktion as freeware if he goes out of business...

Hmm. I didn't know that. I'm much more likely to buy it now after hearing that. I'll have to give the demo another whirl.

munchkin wrote:

I know this subject has been done to death but accusing someone of releasing cracks is a more serious issue IMO.

You want a proof? Here it is:

http://www.kvr-vst.com/get.php?mode=show&id=374

Also, if you don't believe me, try to search for "0xdBass" and "warez" on the net or any other p2p programs. That guy is an arrogant a*hole that spreads around "working" demos of the software. All of us here at kvr-vst know what's going on with the latest releases and where to get legitimate demos, others don't know that and download those cracks.

So this has the same name as the cracking team.
Is it possible they might've nicked it?
What if they use 'munchkin' am I gonna get some flak?

I don't believe that "I didn't know it was a crack" stuff.
If someone judges a piece of software on the cracked
version then they are daft IMO.
They won't receive support so it's entirely at their own risk.
Tough luck if things go wrong.
That's not the developers fault.
I'm sure most crack users know this.
And if they don't then they only have themselves to blame.

I quite like that what I write looks like:
Poetry...

munchkin wrote:

So this has the same name as the cracking team. Is it possible they might've nicked it? What if they use 'munchkin' am I gonna get some flak?

Bro, I was trying to make a point and to hear people's opinion by making
my original post. I don't have time to argue about the names of cracked
teams, although I always find it amuzing that those groups had names
such as Oxygen, Radium, Ozone - all the latest M-Audio midi
controllers

I just wrote here whatever I read on the net, and provided a link which
was posted in there refering to kvr-vst. Maybe I was hoping that guy
is still around here and would write his reply with explanation. Or, maybe
"munchkin" = "0xdBass" since you are defending the name so much

i know i know this argument will continue to the end of the world. point is most people dont have the $ to spend on high end quality software. Also I dont like paying hundreds of $ to get a friggin upgrade every year. any software "legit" or "not" can have bugs, so caveat emptor. But trying to stop "illegal" warez is like trying to stop rain from dropping from the sky. Oh ya, you elitist f@ckers who keep ragging on peeps just trying to learn should STFU. those using "w@rez" and eventually buy, yes some peeps do buy after learning and using it. not that im advocating one side or the other. hey were all musicians here, if youre dedicated you will beg borrow or steal to get what you need to get your work done. we all wish we could pay for it but fact is not everyone has the dough to get the stuff. oh btw a lot of people wouldnt even be aware of a lot of commercial software if it werent "pirated". data is like oxygen in the atmosphere. you cant put a price on air now can you (oh you can but i breathe it for free, so far)

vectron quoth You want a proof? Here it is:

Thats proof there's someone with the name '0xdBass' listed a synth here ten months ago. Not that they're necessarily the same person as the rather amusing chappie putting out 'damaged' cracks.

Funnily enough, these days some people dont spend ages thinking up new and original pseudonyms on the net. I only spell it 'Whyterabbyt' these days because in the past 13-14 years there are a hell of a lot of people on the 'net calling themselves 'WhiteRabbit', when originally there was just one.

In fact the other pseudonym Ive been using turns up in a few places as well, and it is obscure..

heh, don't get your hopes up kid'o
Oxdbass won't be returning, and if returning, then kvr-vst is the dumbest place to return to
All the software company's developers are at this forum, well, don't need to use any more words, you get the picture

>>data is like oxygen in the atmosphere.

If you can't afford the high-end stuff, use free stuff or cheap stuff. Don't steal stuff and then make excuses.

The original bluesmen had to make due with a cheap harmonica, a jug, a washboard, or wires strung to shacks to make "guitars." Toughen up a bit. You don't need to rely on, say, a cracked z3ta to get you some big pad sound. Use some work and creativity to get around the money problem.

Besides, I'm pretty sure that "love" is like oxygen, not data.

safeaim wrote:

heh, don't get your hopes up kid'o Oxdbass won't be returning, and if returning, then kvr-vst is the dumbest place to return to All the software company's developers are at this forum, well, don't need to use any more words, you get the picture

On a contrary, do you all remember how the guy from DiscoDSP made an official post here refering to people who cracked his software? He posted a very detailed message telling them what they did wrong when they cracked his software which doesn't work anymore after the crack. So, developers DO care even when their software is being cracked, to make sure its working properly. I'm pretty sure those groups have this site bookmarked to find out what is next on their "to do" list.

http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25202&highlight=oxdbass

the last one about oxdbass - certainly seems to suggest that anti -pro is something to do with the cracking team
but i guess innocent til proven guilty, unless you have a good lawyer

whyterabbyt wrote:

vectron quoth You want a proof? Here it is: Thats proof there's someone with the name '0xdBass' listed a synth here ten months ago. Not that they're necessarily the same person as the rather amusing chappie putting out 'damaged' cracks.

Fair enough - and that was my first interpretation.

But then I had a look at Rain Machine made much later by the same person and it turned out this was made with a cracked version of Synthedit - cracked by, coincidentally perhaps, oxdbass.

Maybe that was just a daft thing to do; releasing a vst made with a cracked programme cracked by that very group with the same (stolen??) name he went by previously. But it seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Not to mention cracking a beta release that's freeware(for now)
I don't get these kids nowdays
ew

vectron wrote:

Or, maybe "munchkin" = "0xdBass" since you are defending the name so much

You see what I mean? If putting my point of view makes me a crack merchant then it's all done and dusted isn't it? Why post this thread if your intentions weren't to start a debate? I honestly don't like the idea that rumours can accuse someone of anything.

If you start a witch hunt don't complain when someone asks why you are frequenting crack forums and know so much about where to find these cracks on P2P. Ever see The Crucible?

You invite opinions and then accuse me of releasing cracks when I disagree with you. FUCK YOU! Who the fuck do you think you are? Judge Dredd? Don't try to hide behind that 'only trying to help the community' shite when you accuse people without hard evidence and diss people who disagree with you.

Just guessing, but I'm pretty sure every cracker or whatever they're called probably comes to this site since it's the most comprehensive in regards to what's going on in the soft synth community. There's almost 8000 members here, and that's not even mentioning all the people who view the site but aren't registered.

I've calmed down now!

Seriously tho! The way this issue is being dealt with is out of order. Accusing someone of a serious crime based on a name is unfair. I have nothing against you personally vectron (apart from you accusing me of releasing cracks) but can't you see how this can spiral into a witchhunt?

Anyone with a personal vedetta could use this forum to accuse anyone of anything. I'm not saying you're doing this but without hard evidence like cracks being released/distributed via this persons ipn or something this accusation is skating on thin ice.

If you have concerns about any member releasing cracks then pm them or else contact Ben. Public accusations like this are not the arena for resolving criminal behaviour IMO.

quodos wrote:

we all wish we could pay for it but fact is not everyone has the dough to get the stuff.

What a load of self serving crap!! So should we all go out and steal expensive cars because we can't afford them? From where I sit, there's no difference between using warez and robbing a bank to steal the money to buy the software. The same goes for illegal music downloading. Stealing is stealing, no matter how much you want to try to rationalize it.

Quote:

oh btw a lot of people wouldnt even be aware of a lot of commercial software if it werent "pirated"

That's their problem! How hard is it to read a music magazine or watch KVR to keep up to date on what's available? (Usually, we know about software that wont even be available for months!) Look at it this way--if you legally use some software that most people don't know about, then it's "your secret weapon". Why should everyone get for free the very software that you paid for, and be able to access what makes your music special? Then "your secret weapon" isn't very unique or special anymore, is it?

............never mind

PPl shouldn't use cracked soft period! Support the developers.

"Stealing is stealing"


Go get 'em tiger

Page two already? C'mon mods, lets nip this shite in the bud shall we

munchkin wrote:

I've calmed down now! Seriously tho! The way this issue is being dealt with is out of order. Accusing someone of a serious crime based on a name is unfair. I have nothing against you personally vectron (apart from you accusing me of releasing cracks) but can't you see how this can spiral into a witchhunt?

Gee, are you serious? First, I thought you were just joking, pretending to be pissed from my comments about who is who. But you are for real

Where the hell did you read about me accusing you of anything? You really need to stick your head back into your arse and search for your sense of humor, man I can understand this "misunderstanding" from people who's english is not the first language, but common? Or maybe, I did hit a nerve and push your buttons too far, so you all winded up with guilt about your warez past? See, I'm joking again. Take it easy, do something relaxing, write a new song or spank your monkey, or whatever will make you happy.

This is a best community on the net for PC musicians, where we're all friends, capish? Take care bro

Kriminal wrote:

Page two already? C'mon mods, lets nip this shite in the bud shall we

so soon dave ???

lets let the kids play a while - keeps them out of our hair

slainte rob

quodos wrote:

point is most people dont have the $ to spend on high end quality software.

True-otherwise it wouldn't be high end,would it?

Quote:

Also I dont like paying hundreds of $ to get a friggin upgrade every year.

It's YOUR choice to update-nobody's holding a gun to your head screaming"Update or die!",are they?Some of my software doesn't get updated because I don't see the value for the money in the update.Others I'm very happy to pay for.

Quote:

Oh ya, you elitist f@ckers who keep ragging on peeps just trying to learn should STFU

So being honest in your business dealings is elitist?Explains a lot about the world nowdays,I guess
Grow the fuck up,man...
ew

What he said!

First the sting then the seduction! It's not a joke to accuse someone of releasing cracks. Don't try the old 'I was only joking' routine after implying I'm releasing cracks. You want us to be mates? Then stop using this forum to make accusations that you can't prove about KVR members. This isn't a joke. You make a serious accusation against this person and then claim it's a joke? C'mon!

As for the head up the arse comment and the not so subtle suggestion that I'm wound up because I'm full of guilt for using cracks. Is that another 'joke?' If you can't make a concrete argument to back up your accusations then don't resort to personal insults. C'pish?

vectron quoth Gee, are you serious? First, I thought you were just joking, pretending to be pissed from my comments about who is who. But you are for real

Probably he is pissed. If you accused me of empathising with crackers I'd give you more of a fucking earful than he did.

Where the hell did you read about me accusing you of anything?

Same place I read your insinuation, same place you left it. Stop pretending there was nothing offensive in what you insinuated.

You really need to stick your head back into your arse and search for your sense of humor, man I can understand this "misunderstanding" from people who's english is not the first language, but common?

So you come here, start chucking accusations around, then when someone says 'whoah, slow down, you have no proof' you start making insinuating comments then think you can get out of the whole thing by saying 'oh it was just a joke'.

I think its you who's got their head up their arse, child.


Or maybe, I did hit a nerve and push your buttons too far, so you all winded up with guilt about your warez past? See, I'm joking again.

Nope, you're making pathetic cheap shots, and trying to cover your ass. Go peddle it somewhere else.

Take it easy, do something relaxing, write a new song or spank your monkey, or whatever will make you happy.

Stomping on fuckwit trolls relaxes me. And guess what category you come under...

This is a best community on the net for PC musicians, where we're all friends, capish? Take care bro

Ummm, no. Go drown yourself 'bro'. Take your accusatory bullshit, your 'jokes' and fake bonhomie and cram them up your rectal cavity before there's a multiplicity of them to choose from.

PULL!...nice shot,Mr.Rabbyt!
ew

By the way, just to show who's the one who does actually condone piracy, lets just have a peek at an earlier vectron posting, shall we:

http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=16563#16563


Remember folks; the guy currently insinuating folk here are software pirates is the guy who started this thread bitching that someone is releasing 'crackd' versions of software that dont work properly.

In other words, vectron is a thieving little fucker, trying to taint everyone else with his own stink, and sulking because someone's pissed in his paddling pool.

Wah-wah-wah.

rough day at work master rabbyt ???

youve been PARTICULARLY vitriolic today i feel

slainte rob

Hmm, when vectron originally said "Or, maybe "munchkin" = "0xdBass" since you are defending the name so much " I thought he was speaking entirely in jest. At least, that's what the wink said to me. Besides, it seemed to me to be the kind of thing that's so obviously ridiculous that it couldn't be taken seriously.

I know I've had troubles when I thought that the wink was understood as "just kidding" and then people fly off the handle at me as if I was serious. Then, when I say "I was just kidding!" they seem to get even angrier.

Is there some sort of emoticon that means "just kidding" to everyone? Some sort of rib-nudging one, maybe?

hmmmnnn - the winking emoticon

seems to have 2 meanings to me [and i use it [ambiguously perhaps because of this] in 2 distinct ways -

1 - just kidding / sarcasm

2 - i know something MORE about this situation than most people reading this

or is it just me ???


slainte rob

I think you're right, Rob. That makes it pretty dangerous. Ban the winking emoticon!

'sperimental4 quoth rough day at work master rabbyt ???

Umm, nope. Yes'day was my first Monday in about two months so it was a bt of a shock, but me's fine today. Why'd'you ask?

you ARE kidding right pough ???

slainte rob

slainte rob

whyterabbyt wrote:

Umm, nope. Yes'day was my first Monday in about two months so it was a bt of a shock, but me's fine today. Why'd'you ask?

spearmint4 wrote:

youve been PARTICULARLY vitriolic today i feel

and i THOUGHT you read and dissected EVERYTHING posted here in great detail


btw - i know how it feels - 2nd day back here too today

slainte rob

Rob, is all that winking humorous, ironic, or, just a tic?

FUCK !!!

TCH

TCH


ARSE !!!

W-W-W-WANKER !!!

slainte rob

I think whyterabbyt hit the nail on the head. It is troll-like behaviour to sting and then seduce. This thread was started as a serious accusation against this person. That can't be laughed away as a joke.

As for the comments directed towards me they are done in so-called jest but I think they're really meant to shut me down. It's an age old ploy so I called vectron on it.

munchkin wrote:

I think whyterabbyt hit the nail on the head. It is troll-like behaviour to sting and then seduce.

I thought that was you who said that...

munchkin wrote:

This thread was started as a serious accusation against this person. That can't be laughed away as a joke.

Hmm. Although he did make the mistake of assuming that OxdBASE (or whatever) is the same person as OxdBASE (or whatever), I thought that his main point was "isn't it a bad thing that some cracks, besides being illegal, are ruining the reps of the devs?"

munchkin wrote:

As for the comments directed towards me they are done in so-called jest but I think they're really meant to shut me down. It's an age old ploy so I called vectron on it.

I disagree, respectfully. I think you're assuming that was his intention. I think that he made a point (badly) of telling you that wasn't his intention. I say this because it's exactly the type of thing that I would say, and I know I would never have meant it in that way. Of course, you may be right and I may be crazy, but I think it's better to ask questions first and shoot later.

munchkin wrote:

I think whyterabbyt hit the nail on the head. It is troll-like behaviour to sting and then seduce. This thread was started as a serious accusation against this person. That can't be laughed away as a joke. As for the comments directed towards me they are done in so-called jest but I think they're really meant to shut me down. It's an age old ploy so I called vectron on it.

Can somebody please close this thread? It was funny first to read this comments from Mr. Sensitive faggot, a.k.a. "Munchkin", but than it just got rediculous. The way how I read this message is that a "wink" means someone is joking. You guys relly have too much free time on your hands to sit here, analyze everything, and try to read between the lines. Just a bunch of whining babies

On that note, I'm back trying to program my Access Virus B synth. After discovering that I can program it with SoundDiver, I decided to keep it! HARDWARE Rules!!!

I agree with you 100% "pough", couldn't say it better myself!

v12 wrote:

I agree with you 100% "pough"

I must say, though, v12, that I don't really agree with you. Not only is jumping into a thread to patronize and insult everybody pointlessly rude, but hardware only rules if it has strings.

v12 wrote:

couldn't say it better myself!

You sure didn't...

pough is oxdbass and experimentfour is paradox

v12 wrote:

Sensitive faggot

Faggot? Yes! Sensitive? No! Go play with your Virus B - not as nice as my Virus C you homophobic prick. Mine's bigger than yours.

pough wrote:

v12 wrote: I agree with you 100% "pough" I must say, though, v12, that I don't really agree with you. Not only is jumping into a thread to patronize and insult everybody pointlessly rude, but hardware only rules if it has strings. v12 wrote: couldn't say it better myself! You sure didn't...

Here we go again. PLEASE, close this thread!!!!!

I'm not seeing any winking there, rtrrdjjrrtddj.

munchkin wrote:

v12 wrote: Sensitive faggot Faggot? Yes! Sensitive? No! Go play with your Virus B - not as nice as my Virus C you homophobic prick. Mine's bigger than yours.

faggot is another hacker team?

pough wrote:

I'm not seeing any winking there, rtrrdjjrrtddj.

did I misspell oxdbass?

rrtdj wrote:

pough wrote: I'm not seeing any winking there, rtrrdjjrrtddj. did I misspell oxdbass?

I don't know. How do you spell it?

pough wrote:

rrtdj wrote: pough wrote: I'm not seeing any winking there, rtrrdjjrrtddj. did I misspell oxdbass? I don't know. How do you spell it?

"oxdbass"

rrtdj wrote:

pough wrote: rrtdj wrote: pough wrote: I'm not seeing any winking there, rtrrdjjrrtddj. did I misspell oxdbass? I don't know. How do you spell it? "oxdbass"

Then the answer is "no."

I know that this have probably been said a hundred times before on this forum, but since this is the first thread I cared to answer to...I say it once again...

Warez/illegal mp3's etc etc are not the same as stealing. It may be moraly wrong, and it's against the law in most contries, but again - it's not stealing. Even in the contries that have laws against this activity, they don't classify downloading a copyrighted program as stealing...getting it from the net and putting it under your jacket in a music store are two very seperated things. The companies behind these products do not lose any money at all when a person download a program instead of buying it. You wanna know why? - beacause the person had no real intention to buy it in the first place. What I mean is, a huge amount of people simply doesn't want to pay hundreds of dollars to get a program when they can download it for free. If a person is prepared to buy a program, she will. If she is not preperaed to do that...she won't..it's very simple actually...sure, that person might instead download an illegal copy of it from the net, but the company does not loose any money, since it's only a copy of the program that's being dealt with here, it's simply not a "real" product....

You wanna know why most people doesn't feel bad about downloading copyrighted material? - beacause it frankly doesn't hurt anybody...to most people, it's a big difference between stealing a car, a product that have a lot of money behind it, and downloading Photo Shop on a p2p program...sure, the cost for developing a product like Photo Shop is high as well, but if a person download something that doesn't "exist" in the real word, how can the company have lost any money? - Sure, it may prevent that same person from saving up some money to get it, but that's a dfferent story really....my point is simply that downloading warez and stealing a real item can't be considered the same thing..simply beacause it isn't...

In an ideal word, we wouldn't even need to have this kinda discussions in the first place, but in this world...often called reality, people are sneaky, greedy bastards who rather get what they want for free, instead of paying for it, atleast when they doesn't feel bad about it...If it's wrong? yes, but that's just how people are, in most situations in life....if you take me as an example, I won't my country to spend a lot more money on the police force in order to prevent crime and to drop crime rates, but at the same time, I brake the law many times a week in different situations, it might be anything from playing loud music at 1 A.M to speeding 10 KMH above the speed limit...and do I feel bad about this?...no....and I'm not alone with this behaviour, everyone acts upon their own belifies and moral views, no matter what the law says, still, most people have something in them that can seperate the "real" wrongs from the ones that are of less interest...such as downloading Britney Spears latest album for your 11 year old daughter...hard to compare that thing with stealing her album in a shop and sell it on the street...

umm, yes i can agree to neptuna.

moreover, it's up to companies how to control warez.

for example, i know somebody who had intentionally warezed old versions of his synths, with no catch (no virus, no any destruction code - fully functional old versions)

some other company use advanced serial protection to prevent warez. clipping features from demo versions helps to prevent warez when those features cannot be "patched in".

warez is also kinda protection against lazy developers - developers should keep their products up to date with the most advanced features to make warezed versions obsolete.

developer should develop product with a knowledge that it will be warezed, so precautions should be taken. it's like AIDS - you take no precautions - you get it.

so . . . neptuna . . .

.

Quote:

since it's only a copy of the program that's being dealt with here, it's simply not a "real" product....

. . . please explain to me the differance between a CD with Photoshop on bought from the store and a CD with Photoshop on it that you d/l from the net and burn yourself? How is one real and the other not?

. . . and if a company ONLY has an online store-front, you say that that company isn't losing anything when someone decides that the fee isn't worth it? That persons and their earnings aren't really real, because their product is either: a) downloadable for a fee, or b) downloaded for free somewhere else, and it is justifiable that if you dont want to buy it, just get it free?

I realize that there is going to be a time when people will be able to live their lives out, without the thoughts and bindings of money, but that is way off. Right now, without money people don't eat, go without education, live in cars. People without money die of simple health problems and get laughed at by people with money.

There used to be a time that if something wasn't worth the money, people would find an alternative, or (oh my GOSH!) go without.

Appearantly, we now have the right to not only refuse to pay for a product, but have it and stroke it, too. I guess warez don't sound too bad, really. . . So . . . Fuck EVERY developer here. I'm going warez. I have better things to do with my money that to pay you for your products. Every new product that comes out . . . fuck it. It's mine before i even know what it does. Sorry, it's not my fault . . . its your own. If your products were better, faster, stronger, thicker, taller, more less-gay i would have paid, or if you had not made it so easy for someone to just crack it, i would have paid . . . but they just arent, and you didn't . . . so fuck you and your families (it's your own fault) i won't fucking PAY!









no wink. schizophrenic, even.

rrtdj wrote:

developer should develop product with a knowledge that it will be warezed, so precautions should be taken. it's like AIDS - you take no precautions - you get it.

The problem with this is: no product's precautions have ever stopped them from being warez'ed. Every program, even with insane c/r or PACE, dongles, etc etc etc. each HAVE been cracked. This is an undisputable fact.

The only software which can't be warez'ed is software that actually needs (DSP or something similar) hardware to be run, such as Creamware or Pro Tools. And even this stuff is pirated by those who just by the hardware somehow and then pirate the software.

I'm just confused as to why companies bother with copy protection anymore? Considering a 0% success rate it seems like a waste of man-hours better spent on additional features or bugfixing...

neptuna wrote:

The companies behind these products do not lose any money at all when a person download a program instead of buying it.

You want to tell that to the FORMER employees of TC Works?TC Electronics closed the TC Works division(their software division)because of people with your attitude.Now,instead of a reasonably priced software product,you have to buy a Powercore board to run their new plugins.
ew

like a moth to a flame
like a couch potato drawn to jerry springer I simply must read these threads.
you know...
if you put poison in someones food its not the same as shooting them in the head because if the poison is in the food and they eat then they're really just poisoning themselves but if you shoot them in the head well...pfft..thats different.
what really really really bothers me above all else is the fact that so many people here spell lose with two o's
whats up with that

they could be yammering on for paragraphs and everything will be spelled perfectly and then there it is... 'in the end you loose' or some such

enough already I say

don't worry munchkin.I still like you
even if vect12..I mean 12tron...I mean vectrov12....oh whatever.

To the Mr...

My point was not justify the downloading of copyrighted material, but to show that there is a great difference between stealing a product and getting it from the net. I think I was clear enough in my previous post about this issue, atleast to the point where a normal person would be able to follow my thoughts..

But once again, let's make an example of a situation in which a person can get hold of a "real" product, without stealing it:

1. You hear the lastest, unreleased Eminem track on the radio.

2. You press the rec buton on your stereo.

- you have now made an succesful, illegal copy of copyrighted material, congrats!

...this operation was illegal for sure, but how can it be called stealing since the company still have as many copies waiting in their darkest rooms to be shipped out all over the world, as they did the they before this happend?...no product loss = no stealing

As for products only released online, the "hand on" approach to the problem is not the same...(naturly). In fact, "stealing" an online product would be impossible in the first place...figure out the rest yourself

I think I've made my point, and if you still can't see what I mean, there's very little to do about it I'm afraid...

opiadream: well, about the lose/loose thing, I seriously don't know, looking at my first post, I can see that I spelt it with one "o" the first time, and two o's the second time...and I have no exuse for it ... tho.. I'm not from England/America/whatever, so English is not my native language...maybe that explains it..

yeah, neptuna.

Quote:

My point was not justify the downloading of copyrighted material, but to show that there is a great difference between stealing a product and getting it from the net.

as you can clearly see, i've got a tight grip on it, now (if its there to take, do it: who cares anyways?) thanks!

Quote:

1. You hear the lastest, unreleased Eminem track on the radio. 2. You press the rec buton on your stereo. - you have now made an succesful, illegal copy of copyrighted material, congrats! ...this operation was illegal for sure, but how can it be called stealing since the company still have as many copies waiting in their darkest rooms to be shipped out all over the world, as they did the they before this happend?...no product loss = no stealing

Sure, but can you record an entire album off of the radio? Errr, Photoshop (wasn't that your example)?

ew wrote:

You want to tell that to the FORMER employees of TC Works?TC Electronics closed the TC Works division(their software division)because of people with your attitude.Now,instead of a reasonably priced software product,you have to buy a Powercore board to run their new plugins.

Thanks for the inside info. Now I know who to blame.
I thought the reason for TC closing their software division was they have more interest in making soft to support their hardware than making simple native effects. But now you have opened my eyes for the truth.
And I never liked their native pack anyway, not too good for the price.


Just one more thing. I extremely dislike zealous "rightous" posts considering software piracy. It is really obvious that:
- There is no real protection: every piece of software will be cracked eventually
- Person that have moral merits or that is music professional will pay for his software anyway
- People using warez are not lost potentional customers. In case there was no cracked software they would not pay for SX or something, they would look for free alternatives.
- If you have ANY kind of company your bussines can go bad...Same with software. Why zealous people are connecting company closing their doors with piracy???

So instead same old stupid "the one that uses warez will burn in hell" and "downloading mp3 is a sin" attitude, can someone actually come out with a usefull solution for this problem that bothers a lot of people?


And yes, Oxd Bass whatever guy IS a cracker...And stupid one too, obviously..

Quote:

Just one more thing. I extremely dislike zealous "rightous" posts considering software piracy. It is really obvious that: - There is no real protection: every piece of software will be cracked eventually - Person that have moral merits or that is music professional will pay for his software anyway - People using warez are not lost potentional customers. In case there was no cracked software they would not pay for SX or something, they would look for free alternatives. - If you have ANY kind of company your bussines can go bad...Same with software. Why zealous people are connecting company closing their doors with piracy??? So instead same old stupid "the one that uses warez will burn in hell" and "downloading mp3 is a sin" attitude, can someone actually come out with a usefull solution for this problem that bothers a lot of people?

i guess its really just too late, huh?

this is just really funny. keep em coming guys... i dont think i could do better myself

-R bert

Thanx opia! I'm glad somebody likes me. Unlike the rest of you. (Huffs) Now I'm going off to sulk in my sensitive way.

My views I have typed in this thread – as it seems to be in context – kind of – scroll down.

http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25084

Regards,

Spe3d

Mr. Mack - I have no further comments, please contact our information desk for more information

neptuna wrote:

My point was not justify the downloading of copyrighted material, but to show that there is a great difference between stealing a product and getting it from the net. I think I was clear enough in my previous post about this issue, atleast to the point where a normal person would be able to follow my thoughts..

Yep, you are absolutely right (from a purely legal point of view) theft (or stealing) deprives someone of the thing taken, in this case the deprivation would have to be of the software not the profits. Breaking copyright (which in effect amounts to the protection of profits from intellectual property) is something quite different.

Now could someone just stop this silly thread Afterall people are starting to get offended and the accusations are pretty wild (not necessarily about the oxd guy).

And Munchkin, of course people here still like you

Michael

munchkin wrote:

Thanx opia! I'm glad somebody likes me. Unlike the rest of you. (Huffs) Now I'm going off to sulk in my sensitive way.

Yeah, do us a favor and go off to suck in your sensitive way, your boyfriend Whiterabbyt is waiting for you. Good night and sweat dreams

v12 wrote:

munchkin wrote: Thanx opia! I'm glad somebody likes me. Unlike the rest of you. (Huffs) Now I'm going off to sulk in my sensitive way. Yeah, do us a favor and go off to suck in your sensitive way, your boyfriend Whiterabbyt is waiting for you. Good night and sweat dreams

I take it the V in your name stands for Vile and insensitive?

Spe3d

v12 do you want to get banned? Keep up the personal insults you homophobe and it'll get too hot for you I promise you.

v12 wrote:

munchkin wrote: Thanx opia! I'm glad somebody likes me. Unlike the rest of you. (Huffs) Now I'm going off to sulk in my sensitive way. Yeah, do us a favor and go off to suck in your sensitive way, your boyfriend Whiterabbyt is waiting for you. Good night and sweat dreams

You managed to get your age and your IQ in your username.

You suppose v12 is Zeb Virtual's new alias?
ew

oxdbass [ LOL] wrote:

I know that this have probably been said a hundred times before on this forum, but since this is the first thread I cared to answer to...I say it once again... Warez/illegal mp3's etc etc are not the same as stealing. It may be moraly wrong, and it's against the law in most contries, but again - it's not stealing. Even in the contries that have laws against this activity, they don't classify downloading a copyrighted program as stealing...getting it from the net and putting it under your jacket in a music store are two very seperated things. The companies behind these products do not lose any money at all when a person download a program instead of buying it. You wanna know why? - beacause the person had no real intention to buy it in the first place. What I mean is, a huge amount of people simply doesn't want to pay hundreds of dollars to get a program when they can download it for free. If a person is prepared to buy a program, she will. If she is not preperaed to do that...she won't..it's very simple actually...sure, that person might instead download an illegal copy of it from the net, but the company does not loose any money, since it's only a copy of the program that's being dealt with here, it's simply not a "real" product.... You wanna know why most people doesn't feel bad about downloading copyrighted material? - beacause it frankly doesn't hurt anybody...to most people, it's a big difference between stealing a car, a product that have a lot of money behind it, and downloading Photo Shop on a p2p program...sure, the cost for developing a product like Photo Shop is high as well, but if a person download something that doesn't "exist" in the real word, how can the company have lost any money? - Sure, it may prevent that same person from saving up some money to get it, but that's a dfferent story really....my point is simply that downloading warez and stealing a real item can't be considered the same thing..simply beacause it isn't... In an ideal word, we wouldn't even need to have this kinda discussions in the first place, but in this world...often called reality, people are sneaky, greedy bastards who rather get what they want for free, instead of paying for it, atleast when they doesn't feel bad about it...If it's wrong? yes, but that's just how people are, in most situations in life....if you take me as an example, I won't my country to spend a lot more money on the police force in order to prevent crime and to drop crime rates, but at the same time, I brake the law many times a week in different situations, it might be anything from playing loud music at 1 A.M to speeding 10 KMH above the speed limit...and do I feel bad about this?...no....and I'm not alone with this behaviour, everyone acts upon their own belifies and moral views, no matter what the law says, still, most people have something in them that can seperate the "real" wrongs from the ones that are of less interest...such as downloading Britney Spears latest album for your 11 year old daughter...hard to compare that thing with stealing her album in a shop and sell it on the street...

Maybe right in a lot of aspects and I hear what you're saying, but there are people who have full intention of buying the software, then find out they can get a free version elsewhere and save £($)xxx and I'm sure there's a lot of guys who would turn to the free version so they can invest in more non-downloadable hardware because it is made possible.

Making software cheaper would be one solution, let's use Micro$oft as an example, if he charged people £20 for the latest version of windows, [ bear in mind Linux is free - and more streamlined code, before you add anything about his need for profit ] it would cut down on internet crime by a massive amount, he's made his money 100x over so why is he still digging for ludicrus profits ? I'm sure everyone would have the legit version if it was cheaper but as it is, he puts it out of reach for your average working class person.

The same can be said for audio software, more people would buy if it was cheaper, here's another example, say you were new to making music and you didn't own a copy of the following software, you'd heard loads of good reports about it and you went in to you local music store and saw Cubase SX on the shelf for £99, you'd snap it up, surely ?

all I'm saying is, a lot of software doesn't need to be the price it is, more sales would come from discounted stock = less online crime, less need for wares etc...

I'm looking at it from a neutral standpoint here, I don't agree with wares, and I also don't agree with overpricing.

stamp out wares by reducing costs.

Just my 2 reverbs worth

i hate getting sucked into these threads! opinions, bah!

i will learn to accept that i don't need to voice differing opinion, just because they're different...

ew wrote:

You suppose v12 is Zeb Virtual's new alias? ew

And who is that distinguish gentelman?

Another homophobic tosser.

munchkin wrote:

Another homophobic tosser.

Can he spell?

Solaris wrote:

all I'm saying is, a lot of software doesn't need to be the price it is, more sales would come from discounted stock = less online crime, less need for wares etc... I'm looking at it from a neutral standpoint here, I don't agree with wares, and I also don't agree with overpricing. stamp out wares by reducing costs.

Very good point here. Look at crime (and I do mean almost all crime) and through careful "social engineering" the crime can actually be stopped. During the 18th-19th Centuries in Britain basic food stuffs were exceptionally expensive so "the poor" stole bread and the result, deportation of those people to Australia as criminals. The better solution was to make bread cheaper and more affordable so that it can be consumed rather than go to waste as a result of insufficient consumption.

Of course companies have to tread a very fine line between sufficient profits to actually survive (and to give their shareholders sufficient return) and to minimise the cost of their product to ensure the greatest possible market share.

One of the best examples of this is in the music software market. Compare the price of Storm, Fruityloops, Orion, and Reason (all software studios in my book) and you will notice huge variation in the price. It would be nice to actually see what the market share ratio is, but provided that the products are of equal quality (and note I only have any experience with Reason but none of the others) then you would expect that there would be more copies of the cheapest product.

My 2c worth for the day.

Michael

>>I brake the law many times a week in different situations, it might be anything from playing loud music at 1 A.M to speeding 10 KMH above the speed limit...and do I feel bad about this?...no....and I'm not alone with this behaviour, everyone acts upon their own belifies and moral views, no matter what the law says,

It may make you feel better to think that, but it's not true. Not "everyone" does that. Many people make the effort to follow laws because respecting a law is a way of being considerate to others by following a social contract.

Now there are certainly exceptions. You would break a law that was unjust. You would break a law to save someone's life. But those considerations are different than just breaking a law for gross personal gluttony.

Solaris: Well, first of all, I'm not that OxBass (or whatever) guy, belive me on this one

second of all - I don't think the reason why so many people download copyrighted material is overpricing, sure, if the products where cheaper, more would be sold, but the real reason is that it's so damn easy to get hold of, in combination with the fact that if lazy humans can get something for free, most of them will....I can get a copy of Logic in 30 minutes, while it would take me several days to order one online, and get it delivered to my door...buying in a street shop is out of the question since I live in such a small town..it would take my hours to get to some place where I can pick up a copy IRL...

And another thing, I don't even think most (software) audio products are overpriced in the first place! - Think about it, roughly, you get amazing products for a quarter of the price as a hardware alternative would cost you..it's damn worh it! ....but the real annoying thing people complain about are the cost of cd's...FFS, people don't think an amazing, timeless album with music that will last for years aren't even worth the cost of 5 beers down the pub?...well...I can only be amazed...

Looks like people have taken my posts in the wrong way, my point was not to defend software piracy, but to react to the "warez=stealing" posts I've read in this topic..

mistertoast wrote:

It may make you feel better to think that, but it's not true. Not "everyone" does that. Many people make the effort to follow laws because respecting a law is a way of being considerate to others by following a social contract. Now there are certainly exceptions. You would break a law that was unjust. You would break a law to save someone's life. But those considerations are different than just breaking a law for gross personal gluttony.

I think that to a point you have actually provien mine (and I suppose Solaris') in that you indicate just how easy it is to brake a law. A good example of a law which is broken by almost everyone in Australia practically everyday is pedestrian's using a pedestrian crossing over a street without the pedestrian giving way to any car, bus, truck, motor bike, horse, or any other mode of transportation on that street.

Breaking laws is not necessarily about "personal gluttony". To return to my previous post, having enough food to eat to survive does not equate to personal gluttony, nor does crossing a street, or playing loud music at 1am. In many of these cases there are often no victims (but I suppose it depends on what music you are playing ) but they are crimes none the less. What needs to be done is to change the social conditions which actually encourage crime and/or deviant behaviour rather than to lock those people away.

And Neptuna, I don't think comparing Software price to hardware is a logical argument to justify that Software is not overpriced. Before this assertion could care any weight you would first have to demonstrate that hardware is not overpriced.

Sorry for the length of this post.

Michael

mistertoast wrote:

>>I brake the law many times a week in different situations, it might be anything from playing loud music at 1 A.M to speeding 10 KMH above the speed limit...and do I feel bad about this?...no....and I'm not alone with this behaviour, everyone acts upon their own belifies and moral views, no matter what the law says, It may make you feel better to think that, but it's not true. Not "everyone" does that. Many people make the effort to follow laws because respecting a law is a way of being considerate to others by following a social contract. Now there are certainly exceptions. You would break a law that was unjust. You would break a law to save someone's life. But those considerations are different than just breaking a law for gross personal gluttony.

no, not "everyone" does that, but I'll put it this way...when I'm out driving down a heavily trafficed street a few blocks from me, I would say that 8/10 drivers drive way too fast, I can also recall that all the people I know have some kinda copyrighted material on their computer, and that all my friends started drinking way before they had the legal age to do so....Most people brake the law in some way or another...why would it be OK to brake a law that is "unjust"? - 'cause your moral belifes tells you that there are no legit reason to follow that law...

And my point was not to hide behind others to justify my "crimes" (...), I'll continue to do what I want, with or without the "support" from the grey mass of criminals we refer to as "common people"...

Quote:

people don't think an amazing, timeless album with music that will last for years aren't even worth the cost of 5 beers down the pub?...well...I can only be amazed...

New timeless B. Spears CD or 5 beers in pub
Hard to make decision here.
Music industry has no problem with selling CDs that have really good music on them...Most of music lovers will pay to have all their favorite bands CDs.
Problem for them is that there are some "evil" parents letting their kids download new song from stupid one hit wonder singer, instead of paying for that...How twisted and unlawfull it is

neptuna wrote:

And my point was not to hide behind others to justify my "crimes" (...), I'll continue to do what I want, with or without the "support" from the grey mass of criminals we refer to as "common people"...

Hey, who you calling gray (or common for that matter)

Michael

M.Armstrong - Well, hardware is often overpriced to begin with. ..tho overpricing is just personal opinions in the end...I think that stuff like the Korg Electribe isn't worth a damn thing, while it's worth twice the amount it costs today to others...

but for me, most software products have a real nice price tag to them, considering how much great stuff you're able to get from them...

MArmstrong wrote:

neptuna wrote: And my point was not to hide behind others to justify my "crimes" (...), I'll continue to do what I want, with or without the "support" from the grey mass of criminals we refer to as "common people"... Hey, who you calling gray (or common for that matter) Michael

..not you of course

neptuna wrote:

MArmstrong wrote: neptuna wrote: And my point was not to hide behind others to justify my "crimes" (...), I'll continue to do what I want, with or without the "support" from the grey mass of criminals we refer to as "common people"... Hey, who you calling gray (or common for that matter) Michael ..not you of course

Oh God, it is a wink... a wink..... oh dear, I should jump out of my office window (or some such rot)

Michael

guess you should !

the have always been my favourite right after the , no matter what forums I go to, it feels good to see the lovely faces of Mr. and Mrs. ..what else can you ask for from a forum?

>>why would it be OK to brake a law that is "unjust"? - 'cause your moral belifes tells you that there are no legit reason to follow that law...

Because there's some hope of overturning that law, as in the case of the social protests that lead to legal reforms in southern states in the 1960s.

You practice civil disobedience on the behalf of others and on the behalf of creatign a better society at large. Stealing to get yourself something for free seems less than noble to me.

When someone makes a synth, they put in the work. They can decide what to do with it. They can give it away or they can sell it. It's their option. If they have decided they want to sell it, but you steal it, you don't have respect for their work, their insights, their sweat, and the family they are trying to support with their hard work.

When my children grow up, I hope that they at least realize the harm they do when they steal. If they steal, I hope they feel guilty about it.

If you're going to break a law, have the guts to go find one that is hurting people.

Michael

toast:

For the last time, I do NOT promote warez in anyway, I'm not even defending this activity (well, maybe some of the things I've said could be turned that way, but that was certainly not my intention). My point was, and still is, that stealing and getting copyrighted material from the net are two completely different things, not only according to me, but also according to the book of laws...that's all I wanted to say really....the whole discussion about the breaking of laws is starting to get out of hand, and very OT....I could continue the discussion, but I won't....if you however want to take the discussion further, let's start another topic, and I'll see what I can come up with...

neptuna wrote:

toast: For the last time, I do NOT promote warez in anyway, I'm not even defending this activity (well, maybe some of the things I've said could be turned that way, but that was certainly not my intention). My point was, and still is, that stealing and getting copyrighted material from the net are two completely different things, not only according to me, but also according to the book of laws...that's all I wanted to say really....the whole discussion about the breaking of laws is starting to get out of hand, and very OT....I could continue the discussion, but I won't....if you however want to take the discussion further, let's start another topic, and I'll see what I can come up with...

I'll be in on that. This could end up being one of the most intelligent discussions on the nature of illegality etc that I have found in a long time. Thanks neptuna, mistertoast etc, for making me think with my grey matter for the first time today (bit of a worry for a solicitor to being saying that while at work )

Michael

pough wrote:

rrtdj wrote: pough wrote: rrtdj wrote: pough wrote: I'm not seeing any winking there, rtrrdjjrrtddj. did I misspell oxdbass? I don't know. How do you spell it? "oxdbass" Then the answer is "no."

I have a better Idea, let's stop arguing about wares and all quote each other instead, it's much more fun and makes cool patterns on the forum

Am I alone in feeling that it is unlucky to rip off software

After all, the purpose of ripping is to make music, which can be anything from rubbish to fantastic.

I feel using ripped gear takes something away from my music.

Easily seen as a superstitious viewpoint perhaps, but I'm keenly interested in the quality of my music.

Making music is a very pure thing for me, a delight.

Using ripped gear makes it feel unsavoury, sullied.

cool idea.

Michael

Solaris wrote:

pough wrote: rrtdj wrote: pough wrote: rrtdj wrote: pough wrote: I'm not seeing any winking there, rtrrdjjrrtddj. did I misspell oxdbass? I don't know. How do you spell it? "oxdbass" Then the answer is "no." I have a better Idea, let's stop arguing about wares and all quote each other instead, it's much more fun and makes cool patterns on the forum

OK....I'll leave this discussion in favour of my bed... have a fun time quoting the night away!

and Armstrong, yeah, let's start such a topic, could get real interesting, seeing how different people react on this (warez) issue, as an example...I only hope that I can keep up with your guys advanced English when things gets real deep...

Just fired up my Kazaa there and who are the advertisers today - well Ebay, the biggest online auction in the world, and creative, the biggest soundcard producer in the world.

Assert your moral superiority and say a great big BOO !! to these corporate sluts.

BOO !!!!!

Oh, and by the way, I have never used illegal software in my life.

neptuna wrote:

Solaris wrote: pough wrote: rrtdj wrote: pough wrote: rrtdj wrote: pough wrote: I'm not seeing any winking there, rtrrdjjrrtddj. did I misspell oxdbass? I don't know. How do you spell it? "oxdbass" Then the answer is "no." I have a better Idea, let's stop arguing about wares and all quote each other instead, it's much more fun and makes cool patterns on the forum OK....I'll leave this discussion in favour of my bed... have a fun time quoting the night away! and Armstrong, yeah, let's start such a topic, could get real interesting, seeing how different people react on this (warez) issue, as an example...I only hope that I can keep up with your guys advanced English when things gets real deep...

see, told you this thread was funny

-R bert

As a software developer, all I ask is that you think about who you may be hurting when you download software. This isn't the RIAA or Britney or Michael Jackson you're ripping off. This is some poor slob that took a mortgage or some 20% credit card loan because he was silly enough to think he could make a living sell cool musical instruments to ungrateful bastards.

And as for whether downloading and using software is called "stealing" or not, that might depend on where you live. But it is certainly breaking the law and it is certainly wrong.

Stealing also encourages developers into an ever-escalating protection racket which takes away from the time they would rather be spending making a synth that SOUNDS better and LOOKS cooler and more inspiring. Go over to the company boards and ask ANY of them whether they would rather be making their customers happier with a cooler, better-sounding synth, or making their customers miserable by coding in a copy-protection scheme.

mistertoast


Do you now or have you ever used illegal software or made illegal copies of music or video ?

Not having a go at you personally here, perhaps you never have, but anyone who has should stop complaining now.

Yes. My guilty past. I had a bit of that action as a youth with Atari 800 software. I knew it was wrong then and I did feel guilty. I stopped. Also, I stole a Pink Pearl eraser in second grade and never forgave myself.

As for music, I have previewed music with MP3s and I think the record industry are bastards. I don't listen to the radio much, so I'm sure I'm one of those rare cases where I buy more music due to file-sharing than I would otherwise buy. What I don't buy I delete from my hard drive.

(On an aside, I shuddered when I read a news story today that said 20% of adults use filesharing to get songs and HALF of them buy less music as a result. Anyone else notice you could swing that statement around via a half-full/half-empty argument? I truly hate the record industry. Why don't they put money into making their stuff more fun to buy and less into suing their customers? I remember Sticky Fingers with a zipper. The White Album with its poster and glossy 8x10s. They actually used their noggins to figure out how to sell things back then.)

I have also used hacked software which I downloaded after I bought it. I hate copy protection.

I am not perfect. But I know right from wrong. I refuse to rationalize my actions or plead "lemming" to make myself feel better. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

neptuna wrote:

Warez/illegal mp3's etc etc are not the same as stealing... it's simply not a "real" product.... You wanna know why most people doesn't feel bad about downloading copyrighted material? - beacause it frankly doesn't hurt anybody...

It hurts me, you tosser.

I don't care about your fucking laws. You ARE stealing from me, and from others.

Your attitude disgusts me.

Very honest answer, thankyou . The reason I posted about Ebay and Creative is if these guys can make money from piracy, it's madness to accuse individuals.

As Mr Bowie said, it's a criminal world. Microsoft have been criminals more or less from day one (cp/m). Politics is a complete racket , and few people would believe that Iraq was anything other than straight stolen.

I happen to own all the music software I use basically because I could afford it very easily when I bought, not sure what I would do now though.

>>As Mr Bowie said, it's a criminal world.

I can try to do right even when I think the world does wrong. I don't blame my bad actions on politians or corporations--they play their own game.

I don't even use Mr. Bowie as a model. However, The Spiders From Mars ROCK!

I wasn't justifying anything, truly. I was merely pointing out that the examples set by those at the top of society are extremely bad and the result is inevitable.

I saw the Ziggy Stardust tour in person. I didn't want particularly to go (I was at school and went with mates ) , but it was magnificent. Bowie had an amazing prescence.

>>I saw the Ziggy Stardust tour in person. I didn't want particularly to go (I was at school and went with mates ) , but it was magnificent. Bowie had an amazing prescence.


F*CK! Color me green with envy.

I think people use warez for different Reasons:

-Some just cant afford the high end Software and they are tempted to use the cracked versions.

-Some people actually collect the warez releases.

-Some use warez to avoid the proctection set by the developers.

-It is said that some groups go as far as to fix the bugs in some of these software, and some people use these because they have less bugs.

-Some people like to test out full versions of software with no restrictions set by demos.

-Some people just use them because they are getting a free ride and don't see anything wrong with file sharing.

-Some people are just plain curious.

-And there those people that are just addicted to downloading warez,they don't even use the software, they get a fix from just owning the file.

vectron wrote:

OK, before we start here a big argument about "Yeah! Those guys deserve what they ask for not paying and for stealing", I just thought that it sucks cause some of those "warez" user could be potential buyers of this software. Of course, there are tons of freeloaders that collect all this software, and a number of people who get it and use it for free. But there are also a number of people who will use it without restriction and than will purchase it. I personally didn't know anything about music making until I came across a cracked version of Fruityloops 3.0 a couple of years ago. After using it for a short time and liking all the features, I bought it right away. Now, my music setup grew with software and hardware, but if I would get a "bad" crack of that program, I would probably just delete it of the hard drive.... That's why its sad that some idiot is either trying to make a point releasing bad cracks, or just doesn't know what the hell he is doing. And as a result, he is ruining reputation of lots of audio software developers.

put it this way, if potential buyers are not smart enough to realise that a crack may also ruin some important code in the software, and they then judge the developer because of some fucked up crack version, then they would most likely be too stoopid to know how to use the software even if they did buy it...you know, ,it would seem to me that those people don't really have a brain? and nor do you, if a "cracked" , "faulty" version of a program puts you off it...

neptuna quoth Warez/illegal mp3's etc etc are not the same as stealing.

Legally, it is generally considered different, that is correct. However that is more to do with inherently outdated legal attitudes to redistributable content.

It may be moraly wrong, and it's against the law in most contries, but again - it's not stealing. Even in the contries that have laws against this activity, they don't classify downloading a copyrighted program as stealing...getting it from the net and putting it under your jacket in a music store are two very seperated things.

The reason they are separated is because of archaic and outdated legal definitions, outstripped by the changes in technology.

There are many other areas where one set of laws are applied, when another set of laws could also be considered to be viable except for differences in legal terminology, eg until relatively recently there was no legal definition of rape for male victims in the UK. That doesnt mean it didnt happen, just that it was called something else.


The companies behind these products do not lose any money at all when a person download a program instead of buying it.

They may not lose actual money right there and then, but what they lose is a possible sale. Multiply even a 1% possibility of a sale across tens of thousands of pirated copies, and it becomes a fact that they will have lost potential sales.

A hundred sales can make the difference between a product surviving, or a small company shutting up shop and going and getting a job writing databases.

You wanna know why? - beacause the person had no real intention to buy it in the first place.

Thats a spurious assumption. If there were no other way of getting hold of it, then some of these people would buy it.

What I mean is, a huge amount of people simply doesn't want to pay hundreds of dollars to get a program when they can download it for free.

What they 'want' to do is irrelevant. At what point do you consider it okay to carry out your own wants irregardless of the consequences.

If a person is prepared to buy a program, she will.

Unless peer pressure persuades them that they can get it for free. And the more piracy is condoned, the more such peer pressure there is.

If she is not preperaed to do that...she won't..it's very simple actually

No its not simple. Saying it is doesnt make it so.

...sure, that person might instead download an illegal copy of it from the net, but the company does not loose any money, since it's only a copy of the program that's being dealt with here, it's simply not a "real" product....


Lack of tangibility does not make something 'unreal'. And overall, yes, they do lose money.

You wanna know why most people doesn't feel bad about downloading copyrighted material? - beacause it frankly doesn't hurt anybody...

Tell that to Ultrafunk.

to most people, it's a big difference between stealing a car, a product that have a lot of money behind it, and downloading Photo Shop on a p2p program...

Because they're continually being told that these are no 'real' products and that no-one is being affected.

Unfortunately its just not true.

sure, the cost for developing a product like Photo Shop is high as well, but if a person download something that doesn't "exist" in the real word, how can the company have lost any money?

Victimisation, mental torture, and bullying dont have any effect that exists in the 'real world'. So is it all alright if I come round to your house, and workplace and make your life a living hell?

Sure, it may prevent that same person from saving up some money to get it, but that's a dfferent story really

No it isnt. It is the story.

...my point is simply that downloading warez and stealing a real item can't be considered the same thing..simply beacause it isn't...

Not in law, no. But the codification of law is flawed in many ways.

In an ideal word, we wouldn't even need to have this kinda discussions in the first place, but in this world...often called reality, people are sneaky, greedy bastards who rather get what they want for free, instead of paying for it, atleast when they doesn't feel bad about it...If it's wrong? yes, but that's just how people are, in most situations in life...

So condoning it and pretending nobody is affected by it is okay is it?

.if you take me as an example, I won't my country to spend a lot more money on the police force in order to prevent crime and to drop crime rates, but at the same time,

I brake the law many times a week in different situations, it might be anything from playing loud music at 1 A.M to speeding 10 KMH above the speed limit...and do I feel bad about this?...no....

In other words, your selfishness outweighs all other considerations.
Fine. I reserve the right to kick your fucking head in for stopping me getting to sleep at 1AM when I have work the next morning.
Because its what fits my 'beliefs and moral views no matter what the lwa says' it should be okay for you, yeah?


and I'm not alone with this behaviour, everyone acts upon their own belifies and moral views, no matter what the law says, still, most people have something in them that can seperate the "real" wrongs from the ones that are of less interest...

Thats okay, kicking in the head of someone who disturbs their neighbours and drives dangerously isnt a 'real' wrong.

such as downloading Britney Spears latest album for your 11 year old daughter...hard to compare that thing with stealing her album in a shop and sell it on the street...

Funny, but although you might get kids who may have nicked one or two things in their life before they grew out of it, you wouldnt have expected to steal albums by the hundred.

But for you, things are the other way around. Nicking one physical object (with all the attendant risks) is worse than completely obliterating the potential revenue from hundreds of album purchases and software items over a persons lifetime. How odd.

V12 - we call that kind of thing 'projection'. Time for you to stop the self-denial and crawl out the closet. Who knows, you may finally get to have sex with a human being after all.

whyterabbyt wrote:

V12 - we call that kind of thing 'projection'. Time for you to stop the self-denial and crawl out the closet. Who knows, you may finally get to have sex with a human being after all.

Sorry whyterabbyt, but most of the people on this board are not freaks like you are. Going back and reading some of your messages, I just realized that I'm dealing with some teenage looser (or someone who acts like one) who has no life. So, this is my last post under this topic.

As for a closet, I'm not denying anything. My wife and I do a lot of nutty things in there. And believe me, we have a lot of closets in our house

Ah bless. It's got an imaginary wife.

Mr. Rabbyt, some interesting points but I will respond.

whyterabbyt wrote:

neptuna quoth Warez/illegal mp3's etc etc are not the same as stealing. Legally, it is generally considered different, that is correct. However that is more to do with inherently outdated legal attitudes to redistributable content.

Actually the legal distinction is quite logical on this issue at least. Theft/Stealing (or to be more correct Larceny) must result in a person being deprived of the article taken. Accordingly software piracy simply cannot be considered as theft as the victim (the "faceless" corporation) has not been deprived of the thing taken ie the software. They have been deprived of sales true but that is not what is taken. Therefore, software piracy cannot be theft. Simple and logical.

whyterabbyt wrote:

It may be moraly wrong, and it's against the law in most contries, but again - it's not stealing. Even in the contries that have laws against this activity, they don't classify downloading a copyrighted program as stealing...getting it from the net and putting it under your jacket in a music store are two very seperated things. The reason they are separated is because of archaic and outdated legal definitions, outstripped by the changes in technology. There are many other areas where one set of laws are applied, when another set of laws could also be considered to be viable except for differences in legal terminology, eg until relatively recently there was no legal definition of rape for male victims in the UK. That doesnt mean it didnt happen, just that it was called something else.

Again sorry but again not quite true on either account The law relating to piracy (or in these circumstances copyright) are almost as old as the British Common Law. While I acknowledge what you say about male rape may be technically correct, the law of sexual assault is not a recent invention of legal systems and has covered male as well as female victims since its inclusion in Common Law systems. In Australia, which is of course based on the British Common Law, the crime of Rape was actually removed as it was far more limited then the law of Sexual Assault.

whyterabbyt wrote:

You wanna know why? - beacause the person had no real intention to buy it in the first place. Thats a spurious assumption. If there were no other way of getting hold of it, then some of these people would buy it.

Would have to agree with you here. Very hard to make this type of assumption without some more evidence.

whyterabbyt wrote:

If a person is prepared to buy a program, she will. Unless peer pressure persuades them that they can get it for free. And the more piracy is condoned, the more such peer pressure there is.

Note quite sure I agree with you at least in respect of if they are active here at KVR, afterall there would seem to be quite a lot of peer pressure here to actually refrain from using warez here.

whyterabbyt wrote:

If she is not preperaed to do that...she won't..it's very simple actually No its not simple. Saying it is doesnt make it so.

Sorry but you will have to do better than that. Why isn't it simple. Please explain on this as I am very interested in the response

whyterabbyt wrote:

to most people, it's a big difference between stealing a car, a product that have a lot of money behind it, and downloading Photo Shop on a p2p program... Because they're continually being told that these are no 'real' products and that no-one is being affected. Unfortunately its just not true.

Sorry but again I would disagree with you because of the above argument regarding Theft/Larceny.

whyterabbyt wrote:

sure, the cost for developing a product like Photo Shop is high as well, but if a person download something that doesn't "exist" in the real word, how can the company have lost any money? Victimisation, mental torture, and bullying dont have any effect that exists in the 'real world'. So is it all alright if I come round to your house, and workplace and make your life a living hell?

Don't even get me started on the concept of the real world. By definition, according to post modern theorists such as Foucault, the real world can only be defined by human perception and therefore reality in itself is subjective and cannot exist out of the human mind. Therefore, to quote the Matrix, what is real?

whyterabbyt wrote:

Sure, it may prevent that same person from saving up some money to get it, but that's a dfferent story really No it isnt. It is the story.

Here here, that is why using Warez is against the law as it breaches the intellectual property rights of the developer thereby restricting their right to sell to the consumer (exploit the customer if they are Microsoft. )

Just my quick thoughts on what I thought were the most interesting parts of your post. Please let's start a separate thread in OT just for this debate, what is theft, is piracy theft, can (and should) there be a distinction made between Software piracy and Music Piracy. These are interesting legal, ethical, and ultimately philosophical questions and it would be very interesting to explore these issues.

Michael

V12 Sorry whyterabbyt

Well thats a good start, but you forgot to grovel like the craven spittleshit you are.

but most of the people on this board are not freaks like you are.

No, but there's a tiresome percentage are spineless toerag freaks like you are.

Going back and reading some of your messages, I just realized that I'm dealing with some teenage looser (or someone who acts like one) who has no life

You mean the kind of teenage loser (that's how its spelled, child) who was relying on pathetically childish homophobic taunts because they had nothing of any worth to contribute except mewling little chunks of putressent self-loathing?

Sorry, retard, that was you all along. And yes yuo're right; you are having to deal with it, you're just not managing it very well. Never mind, when the acne clears up, and that bollock finally drops, then maybe you can get a life, sad and msierable though it might seem to any one else around here. Wont that be fun for you?

. So, this is my last post under this topic.

Good. Fuck off now.

As for a closet, I'm not denying anything. My wife and I do a lot of nutty things in there. And believe me, we have a lot of closets in our house

Now that was funny. So, what you mean is, you live with your mom, and you hide in the closet when you wanna play with yourself.

whyterabbyt wrote:

V12 Sorry whyterabbyt Well thats a good start, but you forgot to grovel like the craven spittleshit you are. but most of the people on this board are not freaks like you are. No, but there's a tiresome percentage are spineless toerag freaks like you are. Going back and reading some of your messages, I just realized that I'm dealing with some teenage looser (or someone who acts like one) who has no life You mean the kind of teenage loser (that's how its spelled, child) who was relying on pathetically childish homophobic taunts because they had nothing of any worth to contribute except mewling little chunks of putressent self-loathing? Sorry, retard, that was you all along. And yes yuo're right; you are having to deal with it, you're just not managing it very well. Never mind, when the acne clears up, and that bollock finally drops, then maybe you can get a life, sad and msierable though it might seem to any one else around here. Wont that be fun for you? . So, this is my last post under this topic. Good. Fuck off now. As for a closet, I'm not denying anything. My wife and I do a lot of nutty things in there. And believe me, we have a lot of closets in our house Now that was funny. So, what you mean is, you live with your mom, and you hide in the closet when you wanna play with yourself.

Isn't it sad that people who pretend to be intelligent and superior are always the ones who denigrate themselves so quickly.
Michael

Marmstrong - new OT thread in response, regarding legal bits... continue rest here?

whyterabbyt wrote:

Marmstrong - new OT thread in response, regarding legal bits... continue rest here?

Sounds good but I'm going to bed. Will check in in the morning.

Michael