Hey its great that logic users are getting all these plugins for free, it can only be progressive. If it includes sculpture and utrabeat well ... It looks like they are going for the Pro Reason crowd .. But really all these plugs are good and bad from different aspects.

Apple are encouraging developers to do OSX and AUs, and yet we now see that logic users have 80% of NIs portfolio, making logic users less likely to want to purchase NI products, or other similar AUs.

On the otherhand stein/cake could worry and watch new users and existing users suddenly migrate to this new platform, because it is clear the emapple have a guided strategy regarding digital audio and integration, whilst microsoft do not. We make well see more plugins bundled with a sequencer package.

Truly the Logic fx and instruments shit all over cubase SX bigtime for the same price.

Lets hope it leads to better things for all of us, without emapple putting some developers under financial constraints.

I have always stated that NI are stupid and missed an opportunity, they should integrate all their products more closely, and sell everything for about $800, each year rather like a subscription for $200 updates and new instruments/plugs and soundware are added to the package. This is a no brainer because you more likely to generate a sufficient larger cash flow that is sustained.

B.

Price, money....

So when is it about the music or the art or the knowledge? Or heck, even the technology itself.

Seems first thing people think of is money.

Bah.

-R bert

bluey wrote:

Apple are encouraging developers to do OSX and AUs

Damn... It's sad to see VST get pushed aside...

bluey wrote:

On the otherhand stein/cake could worry and watch new users and existing users suddenly migrate to this new platform, because it is clear the emapple have a guided strategy regarding digital audio and integration, whilst microsoft do not. Truly the Logic fx and instruments shit all over cubase SX bigtime for the same price.

And I don't want a Mac anymore... Used to think of them as cool, but nowadays Apple seems to be all about dirty marketing schemes... I very much prefer open standard plug-ins and computers.

Quote:

On the otherhand stein/cake could worry and watch new users and existing users suddenly migrate to this new platform, because it is clear the emapple have a guided strategy regarding digital audio and integration, whilst microsoft do not.

I thought it was the other way around....more users are leaving their Macs and migrating to PCs. If you were considering a new system and host - the choice would be a) a PC and choice of every host out there except Logic, with all the VST and DX plugins that there are...or
b) A Mac at twice the price, and a choice of Logic or.........errrr Logic. And a vastly diminished choice of plugins.

I would think Stein/Cake and everyone else are laughing all the way to the bank myself..?

Personally the complete caboodle for 1000 seems pretty good to me

A sequencer where you dont need ANY external kit - BUT

Logic really does have a lot of flaws depending on how you work - no latency compensation on sends for example kinda limits your ability to use it for the final mix alongside the likes of SIR or a powercore

Now this is a minor thing to many people but to those who need it (ME!) well I aint ever spending thousands on an emapple product.

Now im sure they will sort this but cubase sx 3 - the one with the vst 3 standard for sidechainable plugs (and presumeably a whole bunch of good ones to go with it) - will be out at the same time

For my money and my way of working (OK pissing about )ill stay PC just now

This looks like the epitome of apple hype - our product is as good as anyones but it costs more - but you dont have to set anything up - cos its easy

ericj23 wrote:

but you dont have to set anything up - cos its easy

Where's the end? "you don't have to think, because it generates music itself"?

Think if that bundle would be on the PC...

Quote:

b) A Mac at twice the price, and a choice of Logic or.

prices for decent wintel/lintel/amd dual workstations aren't lower, can be up to 10.000euro.

for home pc's yes.

mauseoleum wrote:

prices for decent wintel/lintel/amd dual workstations aren't lower, can be up to 10.000euro.

Can be. If you're a complete mug.

Nope I've got my intellistation pleasantly discounted.

But prices are in this range. Check lists.

mauseoleum wrote:

Nope I've got my intellistation pleasantly discounted. But prices are in this range. Check lists.

If anyone in the UK wants one at half this price I'm yer man.

And I'll still make a fortune.

echo

Actually I think it's great news for Logic owners. Of course, if I were developing for a platform where the only major player not supporting a new standard was that same major player who imposed the standard in the first place, I might be considering an exit strategy.

Quote:

If anyone in the UK wants one at half this price I'm yer man

eh, shame - if only you were a cute sweet little blonde ....

Durk wrote:

ericj23 wrote: but you dont have to set anything up - cos its easy Where's the end? "you don't have to think, because it generates music itself"?

We have those already. Aren't they called
MP3s?

Well,

Logic, ES1, ES2, SpaceDesigner, EVD, EVB, EVP, EXS24, EVOC and damn a lot more I guess, for 999 bucks isn't really that bad. - And the upcomming instruments and effects, especially the amp simulation and Sculpture sound outstanding (first hand info, I've joined the NAMM presentation).

If you buy these for another platform... well, above list used to be about 3000 or so bucks, so you get a decent Mac for free now...

Being a plugin developer, well, it won't hurt me as much as others. I don't have plugins that directly compete with Emagic's stuff. - I think it's the opposite. People will upgrade for 199 bucks and have enough money left to spend on cool + creative stuff, frontmost from the independent developers that do things differently

Cheers,

Urs

Thats the spirit!

Apple shits on developers!? Bluey, that's good news!

Urs wrote:

Well, Being a plugin developer, well, it won't hurt me as much as others. I don't have plugins that directly compete with Emagic's stuff. - I think it's the opposite. People will upgrade for 199 bucks and have enough money left to spend on cool + creative stuff, frontmost from the independent developers that do things differently Cheers, Urs

Hello Urs,

I know your brilliance by virtue of your plugs javascript:emoticon(''). You're completely right in this case. There is no zero-sum game in various developers vying for the consumer's money. If the latest, greatest plus do that one thing we all NEED right now, we'll spend the dough. Just because Logic now comes with a few nice plugs, doesn't mean that third party plugs are doomed.

However, I see too many developers making the same freakin' virtual analoge with a different GUI. Few sound that great (and fewer work properly). Let's get creative folks and go to the next step. Make something worth learning how to play. Make something that allows for expression in a way never before realized. We, the musicians, will continue to buy, learn, and create. Synergy is the best way to describe the relationship between developers and musicians.

Urs, you couldn't have been more correct...

Now here's to creativity! javascript:emoticon('')

uhm err isnt that called......competition ?

well if they take NIs market away than thats completly NIs fault if they cant get up their product line. Apple isnt a goverment-subventioned computer company,....and AudioUnits are just like VST a free standard.

about encouring developers....with every OSX Version comes a complete developing package with compilers, debuggers, documention etc....all you need to start coding on OSX is your brain....

the whole thing with emagic being bought by apple and turned into a one platform one standard environment really makes me depressed. when ever a company acts like that, someone looses. Apple have done things in a shady, and very propietary way before, and it always bites them in the ass. I have nothing but respect for people who use (and can afford )mac, but I can't help but hope that this situation turns out the same way. there was a time when I was curious and though about saving up for one, but those days are long gone. I just have so little respect for them now.
But that's okay. I am happy with a system that can be endlessly customised, configured, improved, runs just about everything, can even emulate other systems happily, and gives me access to the bios, etc etc etc. And if apple DO manage to fuck up the marketplace like they want, I will just keep making my own fucking pluggins anyway. So, sad if it happens, but nothing good ever lasts anyway. We'll get by just fine

Frankly I find it amazing that so many people will complain about such a fantastic deal, and even more amazing that they are surprised or disappointed that companies will do anything they can to grab as much market share as possible. That's capitalism for you. If Apple successfully reduces other companies market share in this way, its not Apple's fault, it's the fault of other companies for not offering a product of comparable quality at a comparable price.

I also have little doubt that there will always be someone making a competing sampler or another VA softsynth or another whatever.

I agree with contrast. It's about market share, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. NI is after market share, so is Cakewalk, as are the smaller 'cool' developers like Ohmforce. If Apple wants to discontinue Logic for Windows, then so be it. If it turns out to be a good move, fine. If it comes back and bites them in the ass (like seems to be happening), then they will have consequences to deal with. But in the end it's the competition for market share that drives companies to push harder and put out better products.

BTW, I also happen to think Logic Pro 6 is an outstanding deal, they are practically giving away those incredible instrument plugins. In a way, it almost looks like a desperate move. Too bad the G5 won't let me use my Creamware card, I would have actually considered getting one.

k-tronix wrote:

Synergy is the best way to describe the relationship between developers and musicians.

yes! i wanna be bionic! let's have some VST code put into our genetic codes... add some DSPs to our brains... infrared MIDI controllers in our eyes...

Like they say, 'note on c#5 sysex hex string!'

k-tronix is right that dev isn't a zero sum game. But when you see a large number of items bearing a resemblance to partners (now competitors) products being bundled in with the main system, you don't have to be paranoid to think of windows. But predatory pricing isn't really my beef, it's the way that eMagic themselves don't release their stuff as AU.

With Regards to apple sh*tting on developers - sorry but that is the biggest load of tripe I've ever heard.

Stop for a second and take a look at GarageBand - this will come pre-installed on every Mac sold from now on. How many more potential customers do you think this will generate for AU developers?

Funny how 'EmApple' does somthing like this, and people call it "competition". When M$ did it, they were demonized for it, and SUED.

Norbert wrote:

Funny how 'EmApple' does somthing like this, and people call it "competition". When M$ did it, they were demonized for it, and SUED.

So true.

Microsoft "forces" you to use their browser... Though you can freely remove it, use another and reconfigure windows to default /EVERYTHING/ otherwise.


Apple forces you do to /EVERYTHING/ apple, unless you are lucky enough to get something like yellow dog.. in which case apple tells you to fuck off and drops any support they had to begin with.

Heck, Microsoft even develops for mac, their main competitor next to linux (who's a much bigger danger to them anyways). When was the last time apple made something windows-oriented besides that stupid music thing?

Note: my intel/amd-based machines all work flawlessly 99% of the time... I know how to use them and often freely abuse them. My apple machines (3, all belong to my wife).... constantly crash, bug out, apple offers shitty support... unless you really arent trying to do much with the mac. Great machine long as you do EXACTLY what apple tells and expects you to... try to do anything useful and it goes ap(pl)e-shit. Now Im not very good with OS X at all, but the stuff Ive seen happen in it Id never DREAM of happening on any of my windows or linux based machines in a million years.

Of course, microsoft bugs XP... they give you a free update anytime you want it in a veyr convenient manner. Apple fucks up? Well, must've been your fault.. time to a PAID upgrade and lose all your dox/files etc..

-R bert

jawohl herr R.R. - but macusers are hypnotised with elegant shiny curves of their boxes and aquarius anyway.

who cares?

Norbert wrote:

Funny how 'EmApple' does somthing like this, and people call it "competition". When M$ did it, they were demonized for it, and SUED.

You hit the nail on the head. I can't help but imagine that if Microsoft bought Pinnacle/Steinborg, and ditched VST in favor of DX, that there'd be incredible unrest. Instead, Apple buys Emagic, tosses out VST in favor of AU and apple zealots think it's the bees knees.

All in all I don't think EmApple's moves have helped their cause. The recent CM user survey didn't show Logic in the top three, and in the soft studio portion, FLStudio (windows only) beat out cross platform 'rival' Reason. You'd think that in this particular category, Reason would beat out FLStudio sheerly based on the fact that it was the only cross platform option I'm personally aware of, but this wasn't the case.

Dumping their 'added value' into the market seems to be a very reactionary response. It simply cannot bode well in the long term for anyone involved, apple or not.

Oh stop your whinging. Maybe you PC users can convince Steinberg to give you more instruments if you whinge louder to them..

Correct me if I am wrong here but...

Apple developed Quicktime for Windows
'That stupid music thing" the iPod has sold more than any othe MP3 player and more than any other apple product.
iTunes was developed for Windows
Apple invented the laptop
Apple invented the PDA
Apple was the first computer manufacturer to offer their computers in a choice of colours
Apple was the first major computer maker to incorporate USB into their systems
Apple was the first to incorporate multimedia applications into their operating system and ship them as standard
Apple invented Firewire
Apple laptops were the first to offer built in "Wi-Fi" capability
Oh and Apple invented Windows (Lisa anyone?)

as TIME puts it: "Nobody, not even Jobs, saw what was coming next: that Apple would create the look and feel of every desktop in the world and start our love affair with the personal computer. "

Oh yeah and what's that thing you have your hand on to scroll down? A mouse? Apple invented that too..

So much for Apple never developing anything for the Windows world. You'd still be typing C:/ were it not for Apple.

Lady J wrote:

Apple was the first computer manufacturer to offer their computers in a choice of colours

ah yes, the important stuff....

Robert Randolph wrote:

Norbert wrote: Funny how 'EmApple' does somthing like this, and people call it "competition". When M$ did it, they were demonized for it, and SUED. So true. Microsoft "forces" you to use their browser... Though you can freely remove it, use another and reconfigure windows to default /EVERYTHING/ otherwise. Apple forces you do to /EVERYTHING/ apple, unless you are lucky enough to get something like yellow dog.. in which case apple tells you to fuck off and drops any support they had to begin with.

Oh that's why BSD Unix and X11 comes standard on all apple computers..
Does Micro$osft support Linux?

Quote:

Heck, Microsoft even develops for mac, their main competitor next to linux (who's a much bigger danger to them anyways). When was the last time apple made something windows-oriented besides that stupid music thing?

See my message above.

Quote:

Note: my intel/amd-based machines all work flawlessly 99% of the time... I know how to use them and often freely abuse them. My apple machines (3, all belong to my wife).... constantly crash, bug out, apple offers shitty support...

Perhaps if you learned to use them properly...I've had no crashes under Jaguar and If you clean up your extentions under OS 9 you shouldnt have any there either.

Quote:

unless you really arent trying to do much with the mac. Great machine long as you do EXACTLY what apple tells and expects you to... try to do anything useful and it goes ap(pl)e-shit. Now Im not very good with OS X at all, but the stuff Ive seen happen in it Id never DREAM of happening on any of my windows or linux based machines in a million years.

What happened? It sounds like either a) you dont know how to use it or b) you have a dodgy machine because I have never had any problem with OS X. What are these 3 apple computers? I've had OSX on a 350Mhz iMac, a 500Mhz IBook a 900 Mhz iBook and a 1.25Ghz Daul G4. I never had any problem with crashing...

Quote:

Of course, microsoft bugs XP... they give you a free update anytime you want it in a veyr convenient manner. Apple fucks up? Well, must've been your fault.. time to a PAID upgrade and lose all your dox/files etc..

Microsoft is just plain annoying and they put bugs in your system alright. Spyware that you have to disable after installation. By the way ever use Software Update on Mac? I guess not since you made the ignorant statement above that all apple upgrades are paid upgrades. The only ones that are paid upgrades are major changes to the OS, ie from OS 7 to 8 or 8 to 9 or 9 to X or X to Jaguar or Jaguar to Panther...


Don;' worry, when Apple releases 10.5 Lioness for Wintel boxes sometime in the next couple of years you will have nothing more to whinge about. But actually you willl. You will whinge that apple gave you a CHOICE of OS that you have to PAY for (gasp) when Linux is "free'.

Quote:

-R bert

Quote:

Oh yeah and what's that thing you have your hand on to scroll down? A mouse? Apple invented that too..

I can't confirm where I know this, but I KNOW this is wrong.

cheers

dw

Kriminal wrote:

Lady J wrote: Apple was the first computer manufacturer to offer their computers in a choice of colours ah yes, the important stuff....

In a grey/white/beige world with grey/white/beige days who wants a grey/white/beige computer?

i don't. Apple computers have one thing over generic windows computers. Personality. Apple has won design awards for this.

A computer should fit into a room, not be an eyesore.

By the way Kriminal, in Trilogy i noticed a patch named 'Kriminal Bass' were you the inspiration for that?

dusted william wrote:

Quote: Oh yeah and what's that thing you have your hand on to scroll down? A mouse? Apple invented that too.. I can't confirm where I know this, but I KNOW this is wrong. cheers dw

Right, so which personal computer was the first to use a mouse?
Come on... If you KNOW its wrong tell me why its wrong,..

Lady J , Apple didn't invent the mouse or the the GUI, it was Xerox (I believe)...and Apple bought it or licensed from them...

Maybe Apple was the first succesful company to commercialize the GUI and mouse, but for sure they didn't come up with the idea in the first place , it was Mr. Douglas Engelbart.

Apple fanatics...

GUIs and the mouse were both Xerox PARC creations if I remember correctly. Apple may have popularized them but they're not Apple inventions.

As for the rest of it, well, you can argue whether Microsoft or Apple is worse I guess. But all big companies do this stuff, nobody is going to change it, it's just the way it is. If it pisses you off, write your congressman. If you refuse to buy the product, well that's admirable I suppose, but it's not going to discourage anyone because (in the US) it's pretty much impossible to operate a large, successful business in any other way. Might as well enjoy the benefits IMHO.

Lady J wrote:

A computer should fit into a room, not be an eyesore.

Depends if you use it as a tool or a decoration

Lady J wrote:

By the way Kriminal, in Trilogy i noticed a patch named 'Kriminal Bass' were you the inspiration for that?

Well, i havent received any money, so i guess not

Lady J wrote:

Right, so which personal computer was the first to use a mouse? Come on... If you KNOW its wrong tell me why its wrong,..

I don't like entering a pissing contest, but my inner geek just screams to get out here.

The mouse was invented by Douglas Engelbart in 1963 at the Stanford Research Institute. He received a patent for it in 1970 as a "X-Y Position Indicator For A Display System". It was further developed by Xerox PARC, and used commercially in their Xerox Star computer.

A graphical user interface was first used (commercially) on the Xerox Star, released in 1981, which was the main inspiration for Apple's Lisa (the forerunner of the Mac). Xerox Palo Alto Research Center is behing many of the inventions that we take for granted in computing today. (GUI, WYSIWYG, laser printers, desktop computers, ethernet etc.)


On a side note I would like to add that it's a strange thing how platform choices quickly turn into religious wars. I am a happy agnostic in that regard

m|7o wrote:

Apple fanatics...

Better than 'One OS to rule them all'

Lady J wrote:

Oh stop your whinging. Maybe you PC users can convince Steinberg to give you more instruments if you whinge louder to them.

Whyever would we want to do that? There is so much excellent freeware for Windows.

Lady J wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong here but...

Some of the things you say are true, but much is bollocks, but I suppose things like the C64, Amiga and certainly the "Prime" machines were before your time (now, primos, that was a great OS!). You talk about dogma, and yet you seem one of the most biased posters in this thread.

Go ahead and buy your digi-mega-system because somebody told you that it's "professional". But might I humbly suggest that you learn how to mix first, I'm sure that would do you a lot more good in your career.

Kriminal wrote:

Lady J wrote: A computer should fit into a room, not be an eyesore. Depends if you use it as a tool or a decoration

Thus proving men really are from mars.

Why can it not be both? Why must it be one or the other? Why should tools be ugly?!

Oh an while we're at it, no tools in the kitchen please!

Quote:

Lady J wrote: By the way Kriminal, in Trilogy i noticed a patch named 'Kriminal Bass' were you the inspiration for that? Well, i havent received any money, so i guess not

Ask spectrum... He may have your check

Lady J wrote:

Kriminal wrote: Depends if you use it as a tool or a decoration Thus proving men really are from mars. Why can it not be both? Why must it be one or the other? Why should tools be ugly?!

Ooooh! I'm from Venus! I bought a power drill the other day, it is pink and has beautiful lace trimmings. It looks absolutely gorgeous, so I usually keep it on the coffee table in the living room.

Lady J wrote:

Thus proving men really are from mars. Why can it not be both? Why must it be one or the other? Why should tools be ugly?!

thus proving women care more about looks than functionality.

Mines blue and grey BTW

CaptainMark wrote:

Lady J wrote: Oh stop your whinging. Maybe you PC users can convince Steinberg to give you more instruments if you whinge louder to them. Whyever would we want to do that? There is so much excellent freeware for Windows.

So then stop complaining about Apple. What apple does shouldnt affect you. I dont give a ---- what microsoft does because it 90 percent of the time doesnt affect me.

Quote:

Lady J wrote: Correct me if I am wrong here but... Some of the things you say are true, but much is bollocks, but I suppose things like the C64, Amiga and certainly the "Prime" machines were before your time (now, primos, that was a great OS!). You talk about dogma, and yet you seem one of the most biased posters in this thread.

Oh really? what's bollocks then? Facts are facts. Maybe I got it wrong that apple invented the mouse and GUI but the Xerox Star was hardly a widely adopted personal computer. And the C-64, did not have a mouse nor GUI and the Amiga was post-Apple Lisa...

Quote:

Go ahead and buy your digi-mega-system because somebody told you that it's "professional". But might I humbly suggest that you learn how to mix first, I'm sure that would do you a lot more good in your career.

Funny, how many records have you sold? I suggest you learn how to write something people actually want to hear. Mixing is for engineers and I've learned a lot as far as that goes. Why am I buying a system like that? -Because I can-

When you sell some of your music come back and talk to me about mixing.

Lady J wrote:

Funny, how many records have you sold?

Hahaha. Quite a few.

Lady J wrote:

I suggest you learn how to write something people actually want to hear.

Hahahaha. Good point.

Lady J wrote:

Mixing is for engineers and I've learned a lot as far as that goes.

Hmmmmm, if you say so.

Lady J wrote:

Why am I buying a system like that? -Because I can

I'm sure that's a very good reason.

Lady J wrote:

When you sell some of your music come back and talk to me about mixing.

Been there, done that. And I still think you could do your music more justice if you would improve your mixes, but if you know better that's fine with me.

Lady J quoth Correct me if I am wrong here but...

Uh, okay. But purely in the interests of pedantry you understand.

Apple developed Quicktime for Windows

True

'That stupid music thing" the iPod has sold more than any othe MP3 player and more than any other apple product.

Possibly true.

iTunes was developed for Windows

True

Apple invented the laptop

False. The first portable machine was probably the Osborne. The first proper laptop appears to have been by Grid Computing.

Apple invented the PDA

The first 'pocket wordprocessor' was the Microwriter in 1980. Amstrad released their PenPad before the Newton was available.

Apple was the first computer manufacturer to offer their computers in a choice of colours


Possibly. Cant verify.

Apple was the first major computer maker to incorporate USB into their systems

Still checking. However I can confirm that the first major manufacturer to ship USB2 as standard was Gateway.


Apple was the first to incorporate multimedia applications into their operating system and ship them as standard

Bad example, IMO. The multimedia applications arent actually part of the OS as much as they are bundled with it.

But what date are you claiming for that please?

Apple invented Firewire

True.

Apple laptops were the first to offer built in "Wi-Fi" capability

True, although WiFi cards were already available for PCs.

Oh and Apple invented Windows (Lisa anyone?)

Very wrong. Apple pretty much copied the entire idea for the Lisa GUI from Xerox systems after their people were shown round PARC.

since we seem to be talking teck now... could somebody tell me if there are other companies that make apple compatible machines besides apple? You know how there are a million companies that make every posible color, shape, capability, and configuration of PC... or you can just build your own in about an hour... is there the same situation to any degree with mac? If a person wanted to go cross-platform, but isn't rich, can that person get a clone or custom build one?


Also, just as an aside: I was reading some computer "biography" sort of thing the other day and it said that apple's rethinking the personal computer design philosophy was brought about by the huge "custom PC" scene. People were turning their machines into beautiful things.

Actually, I feel like joining in here...

USB was a common feature on PC motherboards well before Apple had it. However, it wasn't until 98 that an unpatched Windows operating system supported it, which held up adoption.

What did drive adoption was the iMac having neither legacy/conventional connectors nor standard features like floppy drives. USB meece became an extremely popular item (helped along by the quality of the iMac's mouse...)

Laptops and PDAs? Well, it all depends on what you mean. Each has been through about a million variations, some of which have been successful (this applies to the iPOD as well, of course). With laptops, the issue was always just getting the size down, with PDAs, to look at a truly successful example (i.e. one you could actually use, you're talking the Psion Series 3 or the Palm 4).

As for the choice of colours, well, that's the sort of question that doesn't have a sensible answer, because it assumes a business model the rest of the world doesn't really have. I believe there are Taiwanese sweatshops who have produced different sorts of cases for years, though.

Anyway, Apple have in particular cases, helped to drive adoption of technologies (Airport, USB). They've always defined themselves by being about style. Nothing wrong with that. Something wrong with actively doing over your 3rd parties, mind...

i'm just curious after reading bits of this thread
can anyone tell me which side sold more 'units'
in the last couple of years
PC or mac
haven't a clue
just assume more people are buying PC's

Reg Parc XEROX...

AFAIK the guy who invented the GUI was at Parc, but they wanted to drop the idea. So he left Parc and joined Apple...

Urs

opiadream wrote:

i'm just curious after reading bits of this thread can anyone tell me which side sold more 'units' in the last couple of years PC or mac haven't a clue just assume more people are buying PC's

That's as dumb "British cars are worth less than German, because Rollce Royce sells less units than Volkwagen"...

Urs

I think you're all out of your f.....g minds. This is a typical kvr discussion. The wintel haters against the emapple haters. Noones gonna change any others wiev even a fraction here. Stop your pointless arguing and DO SOME MUSIC THE WAY (and on the system) YOU SEE BEST FIT FOR YOU!!!!!!!
Everything else is pointless.
Kim

HelgeG wrote:

Lady J wrote: Kriminal wrote: Depends if you use it as a tool or a decoration Thus proving men really are from mars. Why can it not be both? Why must it be one or the other? Why should tools be ugly?! Ooooh! I'm from Venus! I bought a power drill the other day, it is pink and has beautiful lace trimmings. It looks absolutely gorgeous, so I usually keep it on the coffee table in the living room.

that was hilarious

didnt Walt Disney invent the mouse in the 30's?

Kriminal wrote:

didnt Walt Disney invent the mouse in the 30's?

No. BT did. And sampling.

nuffink wrote:

Kriminal wrote: didnt Walt Disney invent the mouse in the 30's? No. BT did. And sampling.

Ha! And P.Diddy invented the remix and J.Lo inveted 'booty'.

hehe this could go on forever.

it's always gonna be here
all the time we have pc's and mac's.

one will always lust after what the other side has

I have a friend that uses a mac system and every time he pops over to the studio he lusts after the performance and power and choice I have here but still sticks by having his mac .

"it's industry standard you know"

"pc's are unstable, oh but yours never crashed yet ?"

the biggest mistake emagic made (imo) was to drop pc and vst support that caused more divide and snobbery
and jilted users than anything else before.

everyone is loyal and will praise there platform untill they get shat on, lose money, and get forced into using only certain instruments/fx or even worse forced to use an old o/s.


(Marcus Miller - The Ozell Tapes ROCKS so hard on mac or pc)

Kim Olesen wrote:

I think you're all out of your f.....g minds. This is a typical kvr discussion. The wintel haters against the emapple haters. Noones gonna change any others wiev even a fraction here. Stop your pointless arguing and DO SOME MUSIC THE WAY (and on the system) YOU SEE BEST FIT FOR YOU!!!!!!! Everything else is pointless. Kim

well apple surely didnt invent the mouse or GUI..but they were the first to make it available to a bigger audience..same goes for GUI, USB. On the other hand, but im not sure what does that prove ???

Quote:

didnt Walt Disney invent the mouse in the 30's?

then, people invented cats, because they were scared of them nasty mices. then mices invented dogs. but people complained about pit-bulls for being too sharp.

from reading included in tech magazines, these boxxes are supposed to be popular for media production in last couple of years. (maybe apple designers got some ideas here, too)

http://www.boxxtech.com/

realmacgeek quoth well apple surely didnt invent the mouse or GUI..but they were the first to make it available to a bigger audience

Well, bigger than Xerox's yes. But you could also say (if you really wanted to be twisted) that Microsft technically took Apple's ideas and made them it available to a bigger audience still...

Kim actually has a point, but in the absence of a rational discussion, I'll quote Bill Gates to Steve Jobs about the "look and feel" lawsuit:

"Just because you broke into PARC one night and stole their television doesn't mean I can't break in and take the video."

Lady J wrote:

Thus proving men really are from mars.

You got it wrong there, Lady J, girls go to Mars, become rock stars!

Jojo (off to Jupiter)

spoonboiler wrote:

could somebody tell me if there are other companies that make apple compatible machines besides apple?

There used to be a couple of Mac clones for a very short while. Apple changed it's mind about tolerating them very quickly. Hence, no more Mac clones.

Urs wrote:

opiadream wrote: i'm just curious after reading bits of this thread can anyone tell me which side sold more 'units' in the last couple of years PC or mac haven't a clue just assume more people are buying PC's That's as dumb "British cars are worth less than German, because Rollce Royce sells less units than Volkwagen"... Urs

He just asked which sold more, he didnt say it made either better by being more popular.

chris

cptgone wrote:

spoonboiler wrote: could somebody tell me if there are other companies that make apple compatible machines besides apple? There used to be a couple of Mac clones for a very short while. Apple changed it's mind about tolerating them very quickly. Hence, no more Mac clones.

And this is my major gripe about apple. Wintel at least has huge amounts of competition on the hardware side, constantly driving down prices and pushing the envelope of features. This means more choices at better prices, and an incredible amount of customizability. Personally, I couldn't fathom getting some way over priced box (however pretty, and that's a relative thing anyway) and not be able to mod it all to heck and really make it mine.

cptgone wrote:

spoonboiler wrote: could somebody tell me if there are other companies that make apple compatible machines besides apple? There used to be a couple of Mac clones for a very short while. Apple changed it's mind about tolerating them very quickly. Hence, no more Mac clones.

Actually Apple started the whole Mac Clone market to try and compete with windows but it failed, i guese cause they were still more expensive than equivelant PCs. Or mabey because PCs already had most of the market and its very hard to get people to switch once they are comfortable.

chris

Whats the differance between a PC and a MAC user?

A PC user would tell Bill Gates to fuck of he he knocked on their front door.

A MAC use would let Steve Jobs in, let him shag their wife and still find it inovative.

chris

It was Jobs that put the kabosh on mac clones when he rejoined the company, it had been run by some ex pepsi executive.

B.

bluey wrote:

It was Jobs that put the kabosh on mac clones when he rejoined the company, it had been run by some ex pepsi executive. B.

I think I read that he killed them off because the clones hadnt actualy increased apples market share, they were just more competition for apple, rather than more competition for PCs.

chris

Yep, Bluey's Right!

The whole PC/MAC thing is decided by one factor, how many PC owners and how many MAC owners are involved in the conversation!

How democratic.

dusted william wrote:

Quote: Oh yeah and what's that thing you have your hand on to scroll down? A mouse? Apple invented that too.. I can't confirm where I know this, but I KNOW this is wrong. cheers dw

Xerox invented the mouse and the first mouse-driven GUI.

_oswald wrote:

dusted william wrote: Quote: Oh yeah and what's that thing you have your hand on to scroll down? A mouse? Apple invented that too.. I can't confirm where I know this, but I KNOW this is wrong. cheers dw Xerox invented the mouse and the first mouse-driven GUI.

No shit, sherlock.

Umm, _oswald, you may wanna check this out - http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa081898.htm

MACS ARE PCS, GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS

for goodness sake, man. It's either windows vs OSX, or powerPC vs x8x

-R bert

Robert Randolph wrote:

MACS ARE PCS, GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS for goodness sake, man. It's either windows vs OSX, or powerPC vs x8x -R bert

You've come to the threshold of the topic of semantics versus communication. We all know the PC's refer to Windoze machines, but I hate typing Windoze. I, along with countless others, shall continue to use PC when referring to one and Macs when referring to the other. Accept this as a widely accepted term even though it may not be necessarily codified.

Anyhow, Macs are more than PC's!

whyterabbyt wrote:

Umm, _oswald, you may wanna check this out - http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa081898.htm

Thanks man, that's most definately a good read.

nuffink wrote:

No shit, sherlock.

Pfft. Be nice to a man with SARS or I'll cough it up on you, digitally.
<here's to hoping my new anti-biotics work>

On an on-topic note, I do find it fascinating how many companies will claim to have invented an item. For instance, one of my teachers at college had a shirt from the Apple store that said 'We invented the mouse' and although I was not truly correct on the invention by Xerox (thank you whyterabbyt for the link) it did get his panties in a bundle to hear that his shirt was 110% false because he couldn't grasp the concept that the shirt was a marketing ploy and by no means I am crucifying Apple for the claim, god knows Ford would claim to have invented the wheel. Just a fascinating topic, that's all

I think the most telling fact is that Steve Jobs and his henchmen walked into a place that had developed (though not necessarily invented) a windowing system with a mouse, ethernet networking, laser printing, object-oriented programming and WYSIWYG. What did they decide to take away with them? Just the windows and mouse, please.

Now that's innovation and vision!

I have to say, though, that Steve Jobs is at least more visionary than Bill Gates. And they're both much smarter than the boneheads at Xerox, who were sitting on a goldmine and pulled the plug. Why, who would ever want any of the things listed above? Maybe laser printing, but certainly nothing else.

_oswald wrote:

whyterabbyt wrote: No shit, sherlock. Pfft. Be nice to a man with SARS or I'll cough it up on you, digitally.

I think nuffink said that, because it was mentioned by almost 5 others earlier in the thread!

Do you've really SARS?

Before the great divorce, when Emagic scraped off its PC users, the fundamental market battle was between Emagic and Steinberg. Steinberg opened up ever-wider consumer-end markets with products like MyMP3, Cubasis and Clean. Emagic, conversely retrenched into its fanatical pro user niche. When Apple bought out Emagic, it cleared the field on the PC front for Steinberg, and thus the conditions were set for Steinberg to feel it no longer had to worry, tomorrow belonged to it, along with 30,000 disenfranchised PC Logic users.

You can’t understand Apple at all unless you look at the iPod. The iPod is the single biggest selling consumer product Apple has produced in ages. So important is the selling of these units to Apple, it makes no money whatsoever on putting RIAA controlled music across the web.

I’ve said, at least three times before on this forum, that DAW based music tool production cannot function in a piracy environment until the makers of audio tools partner with the makers of audio to promote their music. This, in my opinion, is precisely what Jobs is building towards, a universe of iPods where the Apple download site gives the independent music maker a massive platform from which to distribute tracks and probably get as good, or better, a pay-per-play than was dreamt of in MP3.com.

A single horizontal market in which they know that the maker has paid for the production tools and in which they know the listener has paid for the music, and the labels can go hang. And you know, given that Steinberg has lost the plot, I think Apple could really make this work. Apple will probably be the dominant independent production platform of choice for the struggling musician within two years because, at the end of the day, Apple could give you distribution, and, with the fullness of time, promotion within a highly sophisticated group of music buyers.

I should have bought a Mac. I should have bought a Mac.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/main_news.cfm?NewsID=7747

Apple's recent audio related announcements are "very welcome" and are likely to encourage "increased growth at the consumer end of the market", according to Emagic UK distributor Sound Technology's managing director, David Marshall.

Last week's Logic announcements, and Apple's update to SoundTrack, joined the company's recently announced GarageBand application, repeating the segmented approach to market-capture that it revealed with its digital video products: Final Cut Pro, Final Cut Express, and iMovie.

Marshall told Macworld of his appreciation of Apple's audio strategy: "GarageBand is very welcome. With this new consumer-focused application Apple is making everyone aware that they can make their own music and is therefore opening up new markets for us. This news will help to grow the market for audio."

He added: "The audio market has been growing year on year for at least the last seven years at the professional end. Now we will see increased growth from the consumer end."

so I guess I should just sell my fucking box then. If only mac people are going to be able to profit from their music, then I am stuffed. How on god's green earth is the "struggling musician" going to afford a mac? my salvation has been reasonable priced and extrememly powerful hardware that I can build myself, and reasonably priced softsequencers and masses of freeware to choose from. If your prediction is right then I might as well just unplug the fucker right now.

In actual fact windows as you know may be finished and windows future may be linked to component ware, ie specific builds of windows built for specific application tasks, and driven by 3rd parties other than microsoft. This has already been hinted at. The huge mama that windows xp is ... encompassing everything may be over.

Oh and its all about choice ... the ipod may be the biggest selling MP3 player I dont know .. but its the Ipod vs 100 and more other devices that work on PC. There are similar devices that are cheaper, have higher sound quality, more disk space and twice as much battery power than the Ipod now, and there has been for over a year. Jobs convinces and dubes the loyalists that they invented digital audio, just like all the other mac dupes and innovations that apple "invented". Look how fucking dumb lady J is to come out with that revisionist technology history.

B.

I thought it was more like 70,000

HanafiH wrote:

along with 30,000 disenfranchised PC Logic users.

Robert Randolph wrote:

MACS ARE PCS, GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS

Ehh, no. Macs are expensive new age designer dildos.

Bluey, why dont you just go get stuffed? The fact is nearly everything i said was true. The only things i got wrong were the GUI and the Mouse and the fact that the guy responsible for both ended up at Apple when Xerox failed to move units ought to be worth something.

Fact: apple invented Firewire.

You can go home now.

bluey wrote:

In actual fact windows as you know may be finished and windows future may be linked to component ware, ie specific builds of windows built for specific application tasks, and driven by 3rd parties other than microsoft. This has already been hinted at. The huge mama that windows xp is ... encompassing everything may be over. Oh and its all about choice ... the ipod may be the biggest selling MP3 player I dont know .. but its the Ipod vs 100 and more other devices that work on PC. There are similar devices that are cheaper, have higher sound quality, more disk space and twice as much battery power than the Ipod now, and there has been for over a year. Jobs convinces and dubes the loyalists that they invented digital audio, just like all the other mac dupes and innovations that apple "invented". Look how fucking dumb lady J is to come out with that revisionist technology history. B.

Banjostar wrote:

Robert Randolph wrote: MACS ARE PCS, GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS Ehh, no. Macs are expensive new age designer dildos.

and another lie that mac tried to spread was that they were the first 64 bit consumer machine (g5) when it was in fact the afore-mentioned Boxx systems that beat them by months. Boxx is a Windoze/Linux/Unix machine, sometimes referred to incorectly as a PC.
LJ- if you are going to be so nasty to people you might want to get your facts about that other stuff right first. You kind of come off like a bit of a hag, and I know that's not true so it's a shame. If we are discussing fact and not opinion then there's no reason to get all pissed at people; facts can be checked, and hopefully people learn that way.
Best,
G.

quote: from the mac observer:

"[7:00 AM CDT] Q&A With Apple & IBM Execs Challenges 64-Bit Desktop Exclusive, No G5 Laptops Soon
by Daniel Miller



Digital Video Editing's Charlie White caught Apple's Jon Rubinstein (Senior Vice President of Hardware Engineering) and IBM's Chekib Akrout (Vice President, PowerPC & Networking Technology Development) by surprise during an interview at the recent WorldWide Developer's Conference.

White challenged Apple's claims of the PowerMac G5 being the world's first 64-bit desktop machine. From the Q&A:

DMN: Now, you're saying it's the first 64-bit desktop machine. But isn't there an Opteron dual-processor machine? It shipped on June 4th. BOXX Technologies shipped it. It has an Opteron 244 in it.

Rubinstein: Uh...

Akrout: It's not a desktop.

DMN: That's a desktop unit.

Akrout: It depends on what you call a desktop, now. These… From a full desktop per se, this is the first one. I don't know how you really distinguish the other one as a desktop.

DMN: Well, it's a dual processor desktop machine, just like that one.

Akrout: It's not 64, then.

DMN: Yes, it's a 64-bit machine with two Opteron chips in it. It started shipping June 4th.

Akrout: That we'll double check, but in my mind, it wasn't.
..."

i have apples in my garden, where they belong.

it's IBM inside the fancy box, maam.
fancy box is a shell for fancy people.

wanna something realy out-of-this world?
look at new SGI's - like they jumped out of
some Jules Verne movie. Just imagine that -
what impact on your creativity would that be?

They also had an advertising campain about how they were the first Risc based personal computer. Acorn threatened to sue them and they had to cancell it.

Chris.

Durk wrote:

_oswald wrote: whyterabbyt wrote: No shit, sherlock. Pfft. Be nice to a man with SARS or I'll cough it up on you, digitally. I think nuffink said that, because it was mentioned by almost 5 others earlier in the thread! Do you've really SARS?

Nah. I do have a bit of a respitory-thing going on (which I am getting anti-biotics for today) but I could cough up whatever-I-have and run it through an A/D convertor and send it out over the Intarweb

Nothing on-topic to add though. *cough*

well look at that (right from HP's newsletter)

people have just too much time

http://www.softspb.com/dev/articles/pocketcluster/index.html

where are my old sharp calculators? I'll cluster them immediatelly

Lady J wrote:

Bluey, why dont you just go get stuffed? The fact is nearly everything i said was true. The only things i got wrong were the GUI and the Mouse and the fact that the guy responsible for both ended up at Apple when Xerox failed to move units ought to be worth something.

Absolute bollocks, nearly earything you said was either wrong or irelevant. 40% wrong 40% irelevant.

The realy inovative things like Windows, The Mouse, PDAs and Laptops, were not invented by Apple.

Which only leaves the irelevant stuff, who on Windoze gives a toss about Quicktime or iTunes? Or coloured PC cases?

chris

Lady J wrote:

You can go home now.

Hmm... You're in the UK. Bluey is from the UK but lives in the Netherregions. So if Bluey goes home... yeah, I don't think you really want that.

huh its clear from these thread just how bad Apple really is ... a culture of lies and mistruths bred within the company policy for years ... in fact the next mistruth to be spread will be that jobs mother is actually the virgin mary and apple never had their name influenced from the beatles !

Apple didnt even invent firewire either, firewire is not an innovation or invention, it is merly existing technology brought together and rebadged, just like most technology.

In fact Apple have developed ... nothing, just like Microsoft, just rebadged and took for their own, and they have their army of the faithfull to proclaim their lies and mistruths to the world for them !
Like I have always maintained a large portion of mac users are in fact "cultists" in every sense of the world. Its no secret that all scientologists are mac users.

B.

This has turned into a mac vs debate which is pointless. Its all the fault of the mac users who are acting like pricks. I merely wished to discuss apple in this context alone, and their sinister behaviour, which I feel is decremental to all.

All I am seeing is a sleazy company that is at the top with the worst of them, fucking everybody over in their path with lies and mistruths in their little utopian planet In fact they are no worse nor better than microsoft, nor the greed executives at Enron.


Regards,
Bluey.

Urs wrote:

opiadream wrote: i'm just curious after reading bits of this thread can anyone tell me which side sold more 'units' in the last couple of years PC or mac haven't a clue just assume more people are buying PC's That's as dumb "British cars are worth less than German, because Rollce Royce sells less units than Volkwagen"... Urs

ask a simple question get a really simple-minded response.
I wasn't making any implications about the quality of either I was simply asking what is selling more these days.

Wow Nice thread!

Well I think I can say something bout PC's and Mac's since I worked in Silly-Con Valley for seven years as a Systems Adminstrator.

First off, Apple HQ in Cupertino is not all that nice loooking as you drive down Highway 280. Sure, it has ipod & G5 posters plastered all over it but who cares?

Though macs may be cute and fuzzy, they're also pretty piles of high priced junk that offers no flexability as in reguards to choice of software or hardware. Let's face it, the windows world has more software and hardware variety than apple offers - hands down.

Why is it that I could go into a Computer Superstore like Fry's Electronic's and see thousands of windows software apps as opposed to only a few hundred in the Mac Isles? Everybody is always saying that Microsoft has a death grip on the PC industry which may be true but if you think Microsoft is bad, Apple is much, much worse.

With Apple, all the hardware is closed not open. I get a nice feeling knowing that all my Systems are hand built by me. I know exactly what goes into My PC's. Harddrives, Motherboard, Processor, DVD burner, memory, etc, etc. I alone decided as to what level of quality componets that will reside in my aluminum box.

At the end of the day, it's always about money and how much bang you can get for you money. Right about now, I can get a killer monster pc for under $2,000 that would smoke Macs in comparison as to what you can get with pc's. Dolllar For Dolllar, Pound For Pound, PC's (specially hand built pc's) will always kick Apple's ass.

The only reason why people at this point are using mac's now is because they have to due to Apple and Digidesign's whore affair with each other.

I don't like Mac's and I don't like Protools.


Period.

-Juanito

Thanks for sharing, Juanito.

spoonboiler wrote:

LJ- if you are going to be so nasty to people you might want to get your facts about that other stuff right first. You kind of come off like a bit of a hag, and I know that's not true so it's a shame. If we are discussing fact and not opinion then there's no reason to get all pissed at people; facts can be checked, and hopefully people learn that way.

Isn't that always the way.

I get called 'fucking dumb' and when i respond in kind i am a nasty and get called 'hag'. Yet bluey can go on with his racist b.s. and no one cares.

Lady J wrote:

I get called 'fucking dumb' and when i respond in kind i am a 'hag'.

Finally, some facts!

It's always fun to go back in time and see who insulted whom first. It's usually the person who retaliates who gets the penalty. Or wait. That's hockey. Oh well. Unlike hockey this is all virtual so it can't be settled with a good old bench-clearing brawl.

Shame.

For those of you that don't know this, Lady J is a very Beautiful Black Woman who likes to rock out very hard.

Rock me Bay Bay!!!

- Juanito

Juanito wrote:

For those of you that don't know this, Lady J is a very Beautiful Black Woman who likes to rock out very hard. Rock me Bay Bay!!! - Juanito

Even if you hate macs i love ya juanito hay, is that puerto rican?

Lady J wrote:

Juanito wrote: For those of you that don't know this, Lady J is a very Beautiful Black Woman who likes to rock out very hard. Rock me Bay Bay!!! - Juanito Even if you hate macs i love ya juanito hay, is that puerto rican?

Naw babe. 100% Pure Mexican love for yah!