This is getting to be a bit of a hobby horse, but this really is getting farcical IMHO.

I mean I've already told you the story where I (amongst a whole load of other people) paid extra for Sonar XL so we could get Tassman, only to get a braindamaged DXi version that was buggier than a body farm.

And then discovered that to get a working version, we'd have to pay for the 'Full' version, ie the VST. And if we paid for T2, then we would get the upgrade to version 3 for free.

Of course T3 was totally incompatible with presets for the old version, which I can no longer use, except for the aforementioned DXi version which isnt actually usable. And then everyone else who had T2 got V3 for free anyway.

And then AAS announced that V4 was coming, which seemed to consist of features that were promised to existing users as a point revision of V3. And its priced at $100. For tempo-syncing of LFO's, and use as an effect, it seems. Wow.

Meanwhile, AAS have just announced a new offer. If you own a Clavia Modular (or G2 or microModular) then you can 'crossgrade' to Tassman3 for $200. And you'll get a free update to V4 as well.

Isnt that nice? Give your money to another company, be that NI, Nord, or (I think at one point) Propellorheads, and AAS will give you Tassman half-price, and let you update for free. Hand money to AAS several times over a couple of years, though, and you can just watch everyone else get the same software as you, for nothing, whilst they continually ask you for more money still to give you the features they'd already told you you would get.

There's it has to be said that there's nothing like treating your existing customers well. And this is nothing like treating your existing customers well.

That's pretty sh*tty Rabbyt... I guess you've already tried contacting an AAS rep and discussing the situation...

I've never dealt with AAS, but I don't think I'd want to now...

I have to agree wholeheartly that this is crap. I am happy to pay for a substantial update to a product but this takes the piss. I shall be voting with my wallet and if everybody else does the same then I think they will have to have a rethink.

Tassman 3 is one of the nicest sounding synth out there but my tolerance only stretches so far.

Resonance wrote:

Quote:

I've never dealt with AAS, but I don't think I'd want to now...

ditto. does anyone from AAS's camp ever come to the forums here?? just curious. sorry whyter, i'd be pissed too.

lates

t-willy

I dont want to pour salt in your wounded feelings about AAS but as a Reaktor user I get free updates even for major updates. I think this is a major reason why users spend time creating and sharing their synths/fx to the community.

cheers
Strooder

Well if you wanted the library - Reaktor 3-4 was a paid update but it was a substantial update so therefore, worth the money.

for the record.. there are many new things in v4

"bigger synth and preset library, audio input processing, a new output stage (sync, delay, reverb and a recorder) and performance mode (synth + preset + output stage)"

according to email from AAS I recieved..


but I agree, it can be a moneypit of sorts.. to me I think they should have called the newest version as version 3.5 instead of 4 but what do I know..

I feel with you on this issue WR. They are not the only company who like to screw their existing customers. This cross-grade thing has become a bit of a marketing fad.

Just a question here: if you cross grade from Clavia, do you have to forfeit your licence in some way when you crossgrade?

Glad Im not the only one that feels that AAS are being a bit shoddy again.
I mean its not that I have any problem with paying for upgrades, nor that new buyers of a product about to be updated get a grace period for the update; its just that I've been suckered into thinking I'd need to pay for upgrades because things were broken that AAS just didnt fix, and then they gave away V3 anyway, but promised updates to the paying owners, and now those updates are being put in V4 instead.

VitaminD quoth bigger synth and preset library, audio input processing, a new output stage (sync, delay, reverb and a recorder) and performance mode (synth + preset + output stage)"

To me, that reads like a couple of new modules, and basic enhancements to some others. Not what I'd call a $100 upgrade, to be honest. Certainly not compared to, say, Reaktor.

BTW I've already got Reaktor, lex_strooder, and I was heftily impressed with NI's update policy on V4... so no salted wounds here

Sepheritoh quoth Just a question here: if you cross grade from Clavia, do you have to forfeit your licence in some way when you crossgrade?

nope....

i hate the software upgrade cycle.

hate IT!

FRRRIIGGGN HATE IT!


thats why i'm half thankfull NI takes FOREVER to upgrade thier software..

whyterabbyt wrote:

VitaminD quoth bigger synth and preset library, audio input processing, a new output stage (sync, delay, reverb and a recorder) and performance mode (synth + preset + output stage)" To me, that reads like a couple of new modules, and basic enhancements to some others. Not what I'd call a $100 upgrade, to be honest. Certainly not compared to, say, Reaktor.

AHEM...

VitaminD wrote:

but I agree, it can be a moneypit of sorts.. to me I think they should have called the newest version as version 3.5 instead of 4 but what do I know..

Yeah, I got that

But the way they seem to be going, I could see them asking $50 for that 3.5, which didnt work properly as a DXi or in 'Performance Mode' or whatever the hell it is, then another $100 for V4 which fixed all the bugs,then giving away the update free to V5 to folk who crossgrade from FL Studio or a Korg Electribe or something.

Gah.

Wow, I'm impressed. The most "straightforward, non-whiny, the customer really is getting it in the ass" message I've read on here in a long time. Wish more threads were this thought out and thoughtful like this.

I agree, that is bullshit. I also thought the Sound Forge 7 upgrade was a farce too, and never did the upgrade either. I'm getting much more choosy in what I upgrade or not.

Give 'em hell though, as this is a sorry excuse for customer service.

Devon

It's a reason for me to stay away, and I have whatever they need for that upgrade.

And this is not the first time this subject has been brought up and so soundly agreed upon.

I think most developers are fair but to get beta-ware which is what you are essentially getting and paying for it isn't right. Sorry to hear they're sticking it to their users. I was wrong about Reaktor 4, it was a fair decision on how that worked out but botched in terms of marketing.

I don't want to get negative at musicFAQ but this may be an issue to explore, more like who does right by their customers. I think a list that doesn't have the name on it says a lot without slagging anyone.

VitaminD wrote:

for the record.. there are many new things in v4 "bigger synth and preset library, audio input processing, a new output stage (sync, delay, reverb and a recorder) and performance mode (synth + preset + output stage)" according to email from AAS I recieved.. but I agree, it can be a moneypit of sorts.. to me I think they should have called the newest version as version 3.5 instead of 4 but what do I know..

I never got an email.....

basic channel wrote:

VitaminD wrote: for the record.. there are many new things in v4 "bigger synth and preset library, audio input processing, a new output stage (sync, delay, reverb and a recorder) and performance mode (synth + preset + output stage)" according to email from AAS I recieved.. but I agree, it can be a moneypit of sorts.. to me I think they should have called the newest version as version 3.5 instead of 4 but what do I know.. I never got an email.....

It was a personal message from AAS... this is why.

I quote: "I think it looks like a gigantic lavatory!" unquote.

It's probably silly of me to bring this up in this particular thread, but hey, maybe it'll spark some ideas. Wouldn't it be interesting if a lot of us at KVR banded together and used the boycott method on product issues that genuinely suck according to a concensus? I mean, a nice little database & newsletter, a little bit of organization, a little bit of time to debate and mull over the strategy, and then we might actually have ourselves a common voice that has some pull on getting issues like this addressed. Activism works on a lot of levels, if only as an educational tool. Perhaps it could be a "Consumer Union" of some sort.

I recently saved $600 dollars by being a very squeaky wheel. It gave me pause about this type of issue.

Any thoughts?

-Shane

x_bruce wrote:

It's a reason for me to stay away, and I have whatever they need for that upgrade.

Makes one wonder if AAS will do with V3 what they did with Tassman2 - eventually refuse to issue C/R auth codes. Admitted, it was free to go to V3, but given they weren't at all compatible...

Doug

DevonB wrote:

I also thought the Sound Forge 7 upgrade was a farce too, and never did the upgrade either.

Amen to that. There were a handful of features that I would have paid the upgrade price for, and not one of them was in SF7.

Sh@ne S@nders wrote:

Wouldn't it be interesting if a lot of us at KVR banded together and used the boycott method on product issues that genuinely suck according to a concensus? -Shane

Yeah a similar thought occured to me about boycotting products with unruly copy protection schemes, but as someone pointed out we Kvr users are a fairly small percentage of the market, so the protest may be ineffective.

Hi,

a bit OT but:

I have a MicroModular, do you think it's worth paying 199$ for a Tassman v3 (and v4)?

I'll have to check it out but (soundwise) I hear great things about it.

K

edit: after downloading the demo - demo install wants me to input some reg codes - nothing about it in the downloads page. weird, it's only a demo, damn it.

soulata wrote:

Hi, a bit OT but: I have a MicroModular, do you think it's worth paying 199$ for a Tassman v3 (and v4)? I'll have to check it out but (soundwise) I hear great things about it. K edit: after downloading the demo - demo install wants me to input some reg codes - nothing about it in the downloads page. weird, it's only a demo, damn it.

If Tassman was $19, I still wouldn't pay for it. Too many nightmare stories, and I never have enough time to truely play, so not worth it. The presets are very uninspiring. If you REALLY want to make your own stuff, that's where it opens up, but... I'd rather have a Nord instead.

Devon

Sh@ne S@nders wrote:

It's probably silly of me to bring this up in this particular thread, but hey, maybe it'll spark some ideas. Wouldn't it be interesting if a lot of us at KVR banded together and used the boycott method on product issues that genuinely suck according to a concensus? I mean, a nice little database & newsletter, a little bit of organization, a little bit of time to debate and mull over the strategy, and then we might actually have ourselves a common voice that has some pull on getting issues like this addressed. Activism works on a lot of levels, if only as an educational tool. Perhaps it could be a "Consumer Union" of some sort. I recently saved $600 dollars by being a very squeaky wheel. It gave me pause about this type of issue. Any thoughts? -Shane

It can backfire –



Best regards,

Spe3d

Thanks DevonB

This demo copy protection sucks, even if Tassman is ok. I have a MicroModular, it's sweet (only 4 voice max poliphony, tho).

K

I really hated AAS's copy protection scheme, and irrespective of how well done their products are, I'll vote how I feel about it with my wallet. I encourage others to do the same.

The copy protection on Tassman 3 does stink to high heaven. I received news of the free upgrade for Sonar XL users and thought, "What a good deal!" But when I tried to register it I couldn't. After repeated goes I stopped. Mailed support and got no reply. Mailed again - no reply. Gave up!

I could be using it now if that damn CP wasn't so awkward. I've uninstalled Tass 3 as it's completely unusable without a reg key.

Never been that interest by Tassman. Lounge Lizard, on the other hand, interests me. However, threads like this make me want to go the Scarbee route to EP perfection.

DevonB wrote:

soulata wrote: Hi, a bit OT but: I have a MicroModular, do you think it's worth paying 199$ for a Tassman v3 (and v4)? I'll have to check it out but (soundwise) I hear great things about it. K edit: after downloading the demo - demo install wants me to input some reg codes - nothing about it in the downloads page. weird, it's only a demo, damn it. If Tassman was $19, I still wouldn't pay for it. Too many nightmare stories, and I never have enough time to truely play, so not worth it. The presets are very uninspiring. If you REALLY want to make your own stuff, that's where it opens up, but... I'd rather have a Nord instead. Devon

i'm so glad someone brought up the shitty presets issue, cause i thought tassman 3 had some of the worst in the biz. just so uninspiring. actually, imo, version 2 overall had better presets, yet, alas, they could not be used in T3. go figure. what REALLY pisses me off, is that AAS publibly PROMISED the t2 presets to be converted to T3, and it just never happened

Phaedo wrote:

Never been that interest by Tassman. Lounge Lizard, on the other hand, interests me. However, threads like this make me want to go the Scarbee route to EP perfection.

My thoughts exactly. I'll probably get both, cuz as good as Scarbee Rhodes is, Lounge Lizard is tweakable, offering a broad palette of EP sounds.

What's the copy protection on Lounge lizard anyway?

JD

flugel45 wrote:

What's the copy protection on Lounge lizard anyway? JD

C/R (not pace)

munchkin wrote:

Mailed support and got no reply. Mailed again - no reply. Gave up! I could be using it now if that damn CP wasn't so awkward. I've uninstalled Tass 3 as it's completely unusable without a reg key.

I am really sorry to hear that. If you whish to install Tassman again, send me an email at eric@applied-acoustics.com

I'm thinking that between the Rhodes, the WEP and the new plug-in, I'm going to have enough sounds for one lifetime...

Hi

What's WEP?

k

soulata wrote:

Hi What's WEP? k

http://www.scarbee.com/products/wep/index.php

Probably

Thanks Ben

I think it makes more sense to buy LL than the sampled versions of whatever EP, Rhodes, Wurly, it's so good (and inexpensive compared to what you'd have to buy otherwise).

Maybe not the most accurate sound but hey, I never had a wurly or rhodes anyway (but did carry one upstairs to my small studio - don't wanna do it again)

k

The thing is, LL is inexpensive and flexible, but going back to the original discussion, if you keep getting the product cease working because the C/R has been taken down by AAS. So I'm thinking I'd prefer to buy a better product with no hidden costs.

Besides, I've completely fallen in love with the sound of the Wurlitzer. Listen to "Tear" by RHCP. (Or the Logical Song... )

Geez, I was able to buy both a Rhodes and a wurly for less money than scarbee wants for their sample sets...

S_A_P wrote:

Geez, I was able to buy both a Rhodes and a wurly for less money than scarbee wants for their sample sets...

that was a few years back, right?

I can't find a decent rhodes for under 500$ now.

k

I got my rhodes in 2001, got the Wurly last June I think. Neither was mint but both were in very playable condition. Both instruments were listed on ebay, but they were local, so I contacted the seller and made an offer. 200 for the rhodes, 150 for the wurly. I think the idea of shipping these beasts scares most sellers...

For me, it's not really an option. Maintenance, recording, space and (frankly) correcting the damn MIDI recording all add to the TCO. God I hate that term...

The space is the killer, though. There's nowhere to put one.

Phaedo wrote:

The thing is, LL is inexpensive and flexible, but going back to the original discussion, if you keep getting the product cease working because the C/R has been taken down by AAS. So I'm thinking I'd prefer to buy a better product with no hidden costs.

Tassman 2 used the PACE copy protection system. Since it was expensive and not effective, we have decided to build our own copy protection mechanism. We are aware that there is some amelioration to be made but our copy protection system is here to stay.

Eric @ AAS quoth We are aware that there is some amelioration to be made but our copy protection system is here to stay.

You mean like do a one-off recompilation of Tassman2 with the PACE stuff stripped out and make it available to people who want to use their old projects and presets?

whyterabbyt wrote:

You mean like do a one-off recompilation of Tassman2 with the PACE stuff stripped out and make it available to people who want to use their old projects and presets?

Not really. We don't have the ressources to do that.

Eric @ AAS wrote:

Phaedo wrote: The thing is, LL is inexpensive and flexible, but going back to the original discussion, if you keep getting the product cease working because the C/R has been taken down by AAS. So I'm thinking I'd prefer to buy a better product with no hidden costs. Tassman 2 used the PACE copy protection system. Since it was expensive and not effective, we have decided to build our own copy protection mechanism. We are aware that there is some amelioration to be made but our copy protection system is here to stay.

How does the new system differ – is it still hardware based?

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

Double post –

Spe3D wrote:

How does the new system differ – is it still hardware based?

The PACE solution that we used was not hardware. Both solutions use a Challenge/Response mechanism. The difference resides in the fact that we have the full control of it.

Quote:

You mean like do a one-off recompilation of Tassman2 with the PACE stuff stripped out and make it available to people who want to use their old projects and presets?

Good point Rabbyt! I lost T2 when I did an OS re-install, hard drive install. I am getting a bit of use out of T3, (now especially with the new Saturn 6!)I was hoping that the T2 synths would eventually be converted to T3. Honestly haven't had enough resolve to try to re-install T2, especially now that I am PACE free in my new installation. Since AAS committed to converting the old instruments, this would be the LEAST they could do, IMO.

regards
Brando

Eric @ AAS wrote:

Spe3D wrote: How does the new system differ – is it still hardware based? The PACE solution that we used was not hardware. Both solutions use a Challenge/Response mechanism. The difference resides in the fact that we have the full control of it.

I think the question was more along the lines of:

Is the C/R mechanism more like FLStudio and VSampler where it's not per/machine locked or something more closely tied to the specific hardware.

I think quite a few are suspect of C/R for many reasons, including that their freedom is restricted in terms of the software's use.

Personally, I'd probably continue in the AAS product line if it's C/R adoption was more like FLStudio and VSampler, and I'd guess that you'll probably grow the customer base more.

Eric@AAS quoth Not really. We don't have the ressources to do that.

How hard could it be?

Quote:

Not really. We don't have the ressources to do that.

AAS committed on your own forum to converting the old instruments to T3 when that product was introduced, when I, and a lot of other users upgraded to T3.
You guys go up swinging for a home run, but all I see are foul balls. There are companies with fewer resources that are capable of providing far better service. Even freeware suppliers.
You will never get another penny from me.
History:
SONAR 1.0 XL version DXi
Upgraded to version 2.1 Standalone/VSTi/DXi
Upgraded to version 3 Standalone/VSti/DXi
Version 4 - Not a Chance

Brando wrote:

AAS committed on your own forum to converting the old instruments to T3 when that product was introduced, when I, and a lot of other users upgraded to T3.

Yeah, we also offered the service to convert synths that were sent by users. But, how many synths did we received: zero.

So, get over it, it won't happen.

Quote:

So, get over it, it won't happen.

It's going, it's going, it's....another foul ball!
Welcome to the world of AAS customer service.
Get over this...!

Quote:

Yeah, we also offered the service to convert synths that were sent by users. But, how many synths did we received: zero.

BTW, what I and other users REPEATEDLY asked for was for YOUR OWN T2 synths to be converted for use in T3...surely you were not waiting for someone to send you your own synths...

Words fail me.

You've yet to sell me on Lounge Lizard, by the way.

Eric @ AAS wrote:

Yeah, we also offered the service to convert synths that were sent by users. But, how many synths did we received: zero.

In ohter words, that left you with plenty of time to convert your own synths, right?

V.

PS: when you're in a hole, stop digging.

Eric @ AAS wrote:

Brando wrote: AAS committed on your own forum to converting the old instruments to T3 when that product was introduced, when I, and a lot of other users upgraded to T3. Yeah, we also offered the service to convert synths that were sent by users. But, how many synths did we received: zero. So, get over it, it won't happen.

Words fail me as well.

Eric@AAS quoth Yeah, we also offered the service to convert synths that were sent by users. But, how many synths did we received: zero.

So, get over it, it won't happen.

So are you saying that you didn't convert your own synths because no-one sent you theirs?

Or that no-one sent you theirs so you've withdrawn the offer to do conversions, and the fact that you never converted the old T2 stuff is merely coincidental.

And the reason I never sent you my own stuff for conversion...? Because I wanted to see how well you were able to port the T2 stuff. And you hadn't actually told us that T2 authorisations were going to be stopped, leaving us permanently without the ability to reauthorise it. Remember?

But if you're not prepared to port stuff for us, then why can't you give us information on how to compensate for the massive change in the effect of module parameter values since T2.

Quote:

And you hadn't actually told us that T2 authorisations were going to be stopped, leaving us permanently without the ability to reauthorise it. Remember?

I didn't know this - so if I wanted to reinstall my version of T2, I couldn't? WTF?

Brando wrote:

Quote: And you hadn't actually told us that T2 authorisations were going to be stopped, leaving us permanently without the ability to reauthorise it. Remember? I didn't know this - so if I wanted to reinstall my version of T2, I couldn't? WTF?

No surely not

Is this true? That old customers actually don’t have the ability to use a product they licensed from you due the C&R employed – I take it all the upgrades are free at least?

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

Eric @ AAS wrote:

The difference resides in the fact that we have the full control of it.

Care to guess whether your customers find that a good idea?

V.

T2 used PACE. AAS no longer pay for PACE so no more authorisations will be issued, apparantly.

That means if you change anything which PACE picks up on as a change of machine ID (could be a new mobo and CPU, could just be a hard-drive defrag) then T2 will stop working and you will not ever be able to get it a new reauthorisation for it.

Yes, T3 was a free upgrade for T2 users. But remember, T3 wont load, or use, old T2 synths, at all.

In other words, you cant use T2, and you cant use old synths from T2 in T3. You can't even convert them by hand, because the parameters are so wildly different.

Look, you paid them money for the software and they decided to handicap it forever. Why can't you just get over it? Why is this such a big deal? I mean it's not as if you paid to use it or they needlessly ended its ability to function, is it?

Oh...

Well when I install everything on my new PC I'll just hunt down that T2 crack. And if you don't like it Eric...get over it.

A paying customer who thinks your lack of support stinks.

This seems like a perfect example of how draconian copy protection schemes might end up screwing the end user, who's forked out their hard earned money, in the long run.

Additionally, it's also a good reminder to not purchase software based on yet unfufilled promises.

Lesson learned, and I'll be sure not to repeat my mistake twice. Trust is something easily broken and difficult to regain.

Quote:

Lesson learned, and I'll be sure not to repeat my mistake twice. Trust is something easily broken and difficult to regain.

Agreed.

All right, calm down...

Brando wrote:

BTW, what I and other users REPEATEDLY asked for was for YOUR OWN T2 synths to be converted for use in T3...surely you were not waiting for someone to send you your own synths...

I would just like to point out that many Tassman 2 synths are already available in the Tassman 3 library, and most of them have been improved in T3.

Many synths that have not been converted have been replaced with more powerful synths of the same type. For example, T2's "The Vibes" synth has been replaced with "Ultimate Beam", T3's "Balafon" is a much improved version of T2's "African Xylo", T3's "String with Pick" and "String with Plate" can do sounds like T2's "Finger Bass", "Guitar", "Koto" and much more. These are just a few examples. We also got rid of the Tassman 2 synths that couldn't be opened in the builder because that defeated the purpose of Tassman...

Of course, we did not convert absolutely all synths and presets, and those that have been converted don't sound exactly the same because many modules have been rewritten and improved in T3. We're sorry about that. (well, we're not sorry about improving the modules! ) But unfortunately, it's too late to change the fact that T2 presets are not compatible with T3. It was a design decision (a bad design decision in retrospect) that was taken almost two years ago, but no amount of work on our part can change that now.

And we're also really sorry that you can't unlock Tassman 2 anymore; we learned our lesson and we stopped using Pace. Rest assured that you will still be able to install and unlock Tassman 3 after Tassman 4 is out because we have full control over the unlock mechanism of Tassman 3.

Don't worry, we don't want to "screw our existing users". I feel bad for those who want to re-install Tassman 2, but we did replace it with the more powerful Tassman 3 for free.

ageis wrote:

This seems like a perfect example of how draconian copy protection schemes might end up screwing the end user, who's forked out their hard earned money, in the long run.

Yes, it is.

This is why we don't use Pace anymore and we developed our own copy protection. We didn't want the same thing to happen to Lounge Lizard and Tassman 3 users.

Spe3d wrote:

Is this true? That old customers actually don’t have the ability to use a product they licensed from you due the C&R employed – I take it all the upgrades are free at least?

Yes, it is true, and yes, the major upgrade to Tassman 3 - where Tassman was almost completely rewritten to sound better, be easier to use, work better as a plug-in, be more CPU efficient and work on Macintosh - was free for Tassman 2 users.

Benoit @ AAS wrote:

ageis wrote: This seems like a perfect example of how draconian copy protection schemes might end up screwing the end user, who's forked out their hard earned money, in the long run. Yes, it is. This is why we don't use Pace anymore and we developed our own copy protection. We didn't want the same thing to happen to Lounge Lizard and Tassman 3 users.

Yes, but what if the next ice storm actually takes you guys out? Who is going to support this custom protection thing? That's what many customers worry about. Well, not ice storms in particular, but support for a product going away entirely when said product has a little timebomb built-in.

pough wrote:

Yes, but what if the next ice storm actually takes you guys out? Who is going to support this custom protection thing? That's what many customers worry about. Well, not ice storms in particular, but support for a product going away entirely when said product has a little timebomb built-in.

Now that we have our own copy protection, there's no reason why we would stop unlocking old products. With the system used in Lounge Lizard and Tassman 3, we are no different than any other software company that uses challenge/response or dongles.

And don't worry about ice storms; Hydro Quebec worked very hard on its grid after the ice storm in 1998. Don't forget that Quebec was not touched by the great blackout in the northeast last summer!

But aren't there better security measures than CR anyway? It has been shown that CR just doesn't work. Why alienate users with such a dated and ineffective security system?

You missed the point entirely, but congratulations on your optimism...

Benoit @ AAS wrote:

Now that we have our own copy protection, there's no reason why we would stop unlocking old products.

How about you get bought and the parent company decides to kill the product? I hear Opcode had a really nice sequencer.

V.

Does V4 put Tassman where the VL-1 was a decade ago? Does it put Tassman beyond where the VL-1 was a decade ago? What's the story?

pough wrote:

You missed the point entirely, but congratulations on your optimism...

Well, let's just say that I dodged the point

Of course I'm optimist, I just bought a house. This should give you an idea of the confidence I have in AAS. We had problems in the past, especially in the transition to Tassman 3 and with shoddy technical support in the first half of 2003 (everyone was working hard on T3 and Lounge Lizard 2 and we didn't have enough time for good support), but we do learn from our mistakes.

And now for something completely different:
(or rather for the point you were probably trying to make)

TennesseeVic wrote:

How about you get bought and the parent company decides to kill the product? I hear Opcode had a really nice sequencer.

Funny you should mention Opcode; I wanted to talk about them too. People are often afraid that a company that uses challenge-response will go out of business and then they won't be able to reinstall their software. But the thing is, a company doesn't just disappear when it goes out of business: some other company (usually a big one) ends up with its assets. As you say, the new company sometimes decides to kill the old product line, and that's what Gibson did with Opcode's software. However, you'll notice that www.opcode.com is still up and users can still download the last versions of Opcode's products. It's not possible to buy them anymore, but existing users can still upgrade to the last version if they have to reinstall their systems. If Opcode had used a challenge-response system, I'm absolutely sure you would be able to unlock their programs right on that web page.

Really, the new parent company has two choices: leave the unlock system on a server to allow existing users to reinstall the software, or remove it and suddently have all the users of all the products of the old company screaming at them and swearing they wouldn't buy any product from them anymore. Look at what happened here when people learned that it was not possible anymore to unlock Tassman 2 even though we gave them Tassman 3 for free and AAS is still alive and well. Keep in mind that there aren't many Tassman 2 users...

And even if the new parent company was dumb enough to decide to put the unlock system offline, I'm sure that a generous user or an ex-employee would offer to host the system for free on his personal web server. When it's an in-house copy protection system, it costs nothing to do that and it makes people happy (well, maybe not happy, but at least it keeps them from being angry... )

Now, as a user, I don't really like challenge-response copy protection because I think it's an unnecessary hassle and I don't think it's very effective (I'm not the one who decided to put that in Tassman, you know...). However, for the reasons I mentioned, I don't think it's possible that I would end up in a situation where I wouldn't be able to unlock some old piece of software if the company that made it went out of business (provided, of course, that the company developed its own copy protection). I think that the worse that could happen is what happened with Tassman 2 - and we only ended up in that situation because we did not control the copy protection system...

I've been reading the instruments forum on K-v-R for a long time - I wish my first posts could have been in a more positive discussion. Oh well... c'est la vie...

Do you think it is right to have an unlock system that offers no trial period? Also, Does V4 put Tassman where the VL-1 was a decade ago? Does it put Tassman beyond where the VL-1 was a decade ago? What's the story?

Benoit,

I just want to tell you that I think your posts were quite good -- direct and straightforward (and with an appropriate touch of humor, too ). I, for one, appreciate it -- thanks.

Btw, I'm a Tassman and LL customer and went through the whole Cakewalk Tassman DXi -> Tassman 2 VSTi -> Tassman 3 cycle.

So, hang in there and keep posting!

I hate to bring this point up again, but it's probably worth taking a look at the cakewalk user posts in regards to the c/r copy protection that launched with the included vsampler 3 product.

The response was overwhelmingly negative. The C/R copy protection was changed to a slighly less restrictive C/R copy protection scheme (where you still do the C/R part, but the response code is good irrespective of machine). Judging by the response, I would imagine that the net result was that it drummed up more business for vsampler 3 than it would have had it kept the more restrictive C/R.

Generally, I think I can say with some confidence that the folks around here (aka the paying customers) take care of people who feel take care of them (via recommendations, word of mouth, hype, patches, etc...)

I also appreciate the more recent responses.

Benoit @ AAS quoth Look at what happened here when people learned that it was not possible anymore to unlock Tassman 2 even though we gave them Tassman 3 for free and AAS is still alive and well. Keep in mind that there aren't many Tassman 2 users...

No, you you effectively 'recalled' T2, by preventing people from being able to reauthorise it, and you replaced it completely with T3. If you're going to prevent anyone from using an earlier version of your product, then giving them a different version doesn't mean it was free. It means you've substituted something else for the thing they paid for. So we did effectively pay for T3. Except some of us paid a lot more than others, and wound up in exactly the same place.

If a VCR is recalled by the manufacturer and you get a different model in return, then the replacement isnt 'free'. You paid for the original one, so a replacement, or a refund, is your right.

But what you're saying is that we should be grateful that we got a completely new product in return for our old one. No mention of the fact that the new one was completely backwards-incompatible, by the way.
And it seems as though you think we shouldnt be bothered by the fact that any and all projects or work we did with T2 [i]cannot ever[i] be worked on properlyagain, because we cant use the synth, and we cant load the presets. So there's no way of getting those particular sounds played ever again.

If someone sold you a VCR, then recalled it and replaced it with a new model, and then you discovered it couldn't be used to play your old tapes, I dont think platitudes about how great the new model was would make a difference, do you?

I mean you make it sound like I should be grateful for T3. So:

Thanks for supplying a DXi version of Tassman2 to Cakewalk which didnt actually work properly in the host it was bundled with.
Thanks for charging me for a 'full version' upgrade just so the product was usable in Sonar, without ever fixing the DXi bugs.
Thanks for giving me no advance warning that T2 authorisations were being abandoned.
Thanks for taking 2 months (and multiple emails to you) to actually inform me of the fact that T2 authorisations had been abandoned.
Thanks for making T3 completely incompatible with T2 presets.
Thanks for failing to provide any information on the incompatibilities on your website.
Thanks for failing to respond to any queries about the incompatibilities on your forums.
Thanks for promising to convert the T2 library, and not doing so. ('new improved versions' dont help me with old tracks).
Thanks for taking a fortnight or more to answer questions on your support forum, assuming you actually answer them at all.
Thanks for promising new features (like LFO sync-to-host) in a mooted point-revision update of T3, but deciding to put them into T4 (at a $100 upgrade price) instead.
And finally, thanks for leaving me with work I can never finish.[/list]

whyterabbyt wrote:

If a VCR is recalled by the manufacturer and you get a different model in return, then the replacement isnt 'free'. You paid for the original one, so a replacement, or a refund, is your right.

And in this case the replacement VCR is VHS when the original was Betamax

Martin

whyterabbyt wrote:

I mean you make it sound like I should be grateful for T3. So: Thanks for supplying a DXi version of Tassman2 to Cakewalk which didnt actually work properly in the host it was bundled with. Thanks for charging me for a 'full version' upgrade just so the product was usable in Sonar, without ever fixing the DXi bugs. Thanks for giving me no advance warning that T2 authorisations were being abandoned. Thanks for taking 2 months (and multiple emails to you) to actually inform me of the fact that T2 authorisations had been abandoned. Thanks for making T3 completely incompatible with T2 presets. Thanks for failing to provide any information on the incompatibilities on your website. Thanks for failing to respond to any queries about the incompatibilities on your forums. Thanks for promising to convert the T2 library, and not doing so. ('new improved versions' dont help me with old tracks). Thanks for taking a fortnight or more to answer questions on your support forum, assuming you actually answer them at all. Thanks for promising new features (like LFO sync-to-host) in a mooted point-revision update of T3, but deciding to put them into T4 (at a $100 upgrade price) instead. And finally, thanks for leaving me with work I can never finish.[/list]

Wow - makes Steinberg customer support look like ConcreteFX.......

I'm just glad I (fortuitously) bought T3 and not T2.

Did AAS really promise to convert all T2 instruments to T3 ? If so then T2 customers do appear to have been well and truly butt-fucked with a cactus.

BC

Quote:

If so then T2 customers do appear to have been well and truly butt-fucked with a cactus.

Having failed to pay a large gambling debt during last years holiday to Las Vegas, I well and truley know how that feels.

As for Tassman.

Chalk up another disappointed customer who after upgrading my motherboard and CPU experienced loss of T2 use which meant I had to abandon a project I`d been working on for 2 months.

I still hold onto that project file in vain hope that one day they`ll covert their synths.

I`m not holding my breath though.

Quote:

All right, calm down...

I am calm - Now bite me.
This is one bridge I am very happy to burn.

basic channel wrote:

Wow - makes Steinberg customer support look like ConcreteFX.......

You know you've been hanging out at KvR for too long when you understand that joke.

-David,

Hi there

I've never beem used as a metaphor for good service before (or is it an analogue or perhaps a simile ), wow

Cheers

Jon : ConcreteFX

Concretefx wrote:

Hi there I've never beem used as a metaphor for good service before (or is it an analogue or perhaps a simile ), wow Cheers Jon : ConcreteFX

I think it's a simile served on a bed of sarcasm

AAS probably isn't listening.

A few noths back I had a similar problem. All I wanted to do was to get my copy of Lounge Lizard reactivated. I went to their website entered in the code and was told that there were no more authorizations for this user. I emailed them and they said they would take care of it. That never happened. I emailed them again and they simply refused to email me back.

So now you're left with a very pissed off customer (who happens to be a retailer and talks to quite a few of my friends in the industry). I don't recommend thier products to anyone. If somebody ask me my opinion of them I tell them "Great product, some of the worse customer service that I ever had to deal with, buy something else."

This is a prime example of the flaws with the call/response authorization scheme and of how to slowly kill a great product.

Maybe one day they'll pull thier heads out of thier asses.

Quote:

If so then T2 customers do appear to have been well and truly butt-fucked with a cactus.

Quote:

Having failed to pay a large gambling debt during last years holiday to Las Vegas, I well and truley know how that feels.

Ouch?

7XL wrote:

Maybe one day they'll pull thier heads out of thier asses.

Did you use the same language in your mails to them? Strange, I'm always friendly and always get a mail back (from any developper).

Peter.

7XL wrote:

AAS probably isn't listening. A few noths back I had a similar problem. All I wanted to do was to get my copy of Lounge Lizard reactivated. I went to their website entered in the code and was told that there were no more authorizations for this user. I emailed them and they said they would take care of it. That never happened. I emailed them again and they simply refused to email me back.

This would be a non-issue if the program ran in demo mode for a number of days like the Waves plugs.

7XL wrote:

AAS probably isn't listening. A few noths back I had a similar problem. All I wanted to do was to get my copy of Lounge Lizard reactivated. I went to their website entered in the code and was told that there were no more authorizations for this user. I emailed them and they said they would take care of it. That never happened. I emailed them again and they simply refused to email me back.

I find it really surprising that it was not done and even more surprising that you never got an answer the second time you asked. Did you write to support@applied-acoustics.com or to someone directly? Answering to activation requests sent to support@applied-acoustics.com is one of our priorities. The last thing we want is for our customers to be unable to use the software they bought after they run out of keys and for retailers to be unable to set up demo stations.

As I said before, we did have some problems with technical support in 2003, but things have improved a lot since then. We are listening and doing our best, you know... It's just not possible to please everyone.

Benoit,

Can I cut to the chase and ask what is new in Tassman 4 and can you explain why it is worth the quite hefty upgrade price.

Yes, please address the question:

"Does V4 put Tassman where the VL-1 was a decade ago? Does it put Tassman beyond where the VL-1 was a decade ago? What's the story?"

pschelfh,

No I didn't use that language with them, and I am accustomed to getting my calls returned promptly.

Quote:

As I said before, we did have some problems with technical support in 2003, but things have improved a lot since then. We are listening and doing our best, you know... It's just not possible to please everyone.

That's a start, at least you are finally acknowledging the fact that there was a problem and that you are making attempts to fix them.

Yes I emailed support, as I said earlier, I got a response, but the follow through was absolutly horrible.

And since I have "gotten your ear", take this from me as a retailer, not as an end user, you really should look into redoing the way that your call and response works. When it becomes a hassle for the people selling your product (Having to explain to your customer the cryptic way that your call and response system works, "don't reformat your drive before a gig or a session", and the ensuing phone calls when they can't get the thing to work at 6 PM because of a computer crash or what have you).

Take a hint from the people that posted here, they are your customers and the ones that will make the decision with thier hard earned cash.

And I'm not even going to go into my Tassman 3 problems.....(I can install Sonar on 2 machines, but I can't even get an authorization for the first machine because of a need to reformat after having some system issues)

baggio wrote:

Benoit, Can I cut to the chase and ask what is new in Tassman 4 and can you explain why it is worth the quite hefy upgrade price.

http://namm.harmony-central.com/WNAMM04/Content/Applied_Acoustics/PR/T assman-4.html

"Tassman 4 will offer musicians and sound designers a broader range of creative possibilities with an expanded synth and preset library, the possibility to process live audio inputs and sync to host capability. Tassman 4 also includes new functionalities for the management and design of presets such as an output effect section, new effect modules and a performance mode."

Here's what I don't get...

There have already been threads on KvR to the effect of that the user's were told certain things would be coming down the pike and were never delivered. They've also felt abandoned by AAS in terms of support. Then there's the draconian C/R implemented, and users who have been adversely affected by it's particular management and implementation (even if it is in house). In short, I would guess that a portion of the user base has abandoned the product much like they have felt abandoned by AAS. In addition, I would guess that the user base will have difficulty growing based on past performance. (these are only guesses mind you)

Only time and actions will tell us how this story will end.

7XL wrote:

No I didn't use that language with them, and I am accustomed to getting my calls returned promptly.

Sorry for my remark then!

Peter.

whyterabbyt wrote:

Thanks for supplying a DXi version of Tassman2 to Cakewalk which didnt actually work properly in the host it was bundled with. Thanks for charging me for a 'full version' upgrade just so the product was usable in Sonar, without ever fixing the DXi bugs.

I made several projects with it, I had it working nicely in Sonar. There were some issues with PACE drivers but after the correct update to PACE drivers, all worked fine for me.

whyterabbyt wrote:

Thanks for giving me no advance warning that T2 authorisations were being abandoned. Thanks for taking 2 months (and multiple emails to you) to actually inform me of the fact that T2 authorisations had been abandoned.

To be honest, I don't know many companies that give major free upgrades to bundled products. Tassman 3 was given free to all Sonar customers.
I had not much troubles converting my old presets and projects to Tassman 3.

whyterabbyt wrote:

Thanks for making T3 completely incompatible with T2 presets. Thanks for failing to provide any information on the incompatibilities on your website.

With 0 T2 presets received in their request for converting to them to T3, I think it is quite fair for a company doing a major upgrade focusing on other aspects.

whyterabbyt wrote:

Thanks for promising new features (like LFO sync-to-host) in a mooted point-revision update of T3, but deciding to put them into T4 (at a $100 upgrade price) instead.

I never heard of that promise. AAS always told me that it was not going to happen soon (at the T3 time).
I think it is fair for new features to be integrated in major upgrades and ask for a price.

I don't get what is the deal with this thread.
I bet that if you buy Tassman 3 now you may get a free upgrade to Tassman 4 (like all other companies are doing).
Why are you expecting AAS (why particulary AAS ?) to give free major upgrades over a one year period (I can't remember when T3 was out...) ?

Does V4 put Tassman where the VL-1 was a decade ago? Does it put Tassman beyond where the VL-1 was a decade ago? What's the story?

Rik wrote:

I don't get what is the deal with this thread.

I think the point(s) can be surmised as:

1. Poor support and communication have languished the existing userbase.

2. The copy protection schemes employed (be it PACE in the past or their current in house C/R) is restrictive and has helped contribute to point #1.

3. perhaps some have asked for a 'free lunch' but I don't think that's the particular point of the thread.

I guess is that we're all concerned over past performance relative to future investment. By their own admittance, AAS has pointed out that their support has not been as good as they'd like. I think we're all attempting to ascertain if it's worthwhile to fork over more money to them for their updates and continue as customers, or walk away. Hopefully this thread (although excited at times) will at least give the folks at AAS a hint as to how their customer base might feel. What they do with that is up to them.

pschelfh wrote:

7XL wrote: Maybe one day they'll pull thier heads out of thier asses. Did you use the same language in your mails to them? Strange, I'm always friendly and always get a mail back (from any developper). Peter.

i must admit I have always gotten prompt, within 24 hours replies from AAS. when i sold tassman 3, when i transferred LL to pc then back to mac etc.....

But i really hope they are listening to one of the points made in this thread about their zero trial period c/r. PLEASE make it 7 days so at least in the event of a website problem etc the software can still be used in an emergency

Quote:

From another forum: I got my Tassman 3 through the AAS web site as the upgrade available to Sonar 1 XL users. I've recieved email confirmation that since I purchased it after Jan 1st, I'm in line for a free upgrade to Tassman 4, expected in April or so.

I purchased tass-3 in the same route, but earlier. I have received no emails.. So whats my options/cost now if any, should i decide to upgrade?

I think the point is that "upgrade" is a pretty misleading term for an instrument that allows the use of none of your existing tunes.

Rik quoth I made several projects with it, I had it working nicely in Sonar. There were some issues with PACE drivers but after the correct update to PACE drivers, all worked fine for me.

Then you seem to have been quite lucky, because I found the DXi to be unstable and unreliable. The most obvious issue for me was that as soon as it received any pitchbend information, T2's audio engine would shut off completely. That was never fixed for the T2 DXi. The wrapped VST worked perfectly, though.

To be honest, I don't know many companies that give major free upgrades to bundled products. Tassman 3 was given free to all Sonar customers.

In the case of the other singular example where that happened, Reaktor 4 was a significant update from R3. Apart from some new sequencer modules, the major changes in T3 was the fact that it was a rewrite with little new core functionality. I dont consider it a proper upgrade, since it didnt particularly add much that was new; it just enabled AAS to fix their bugs. It also, as I have pointed out several times in this thread, wasn't backwards-compatible which means that it couldnt be used to replace T2. Reaktor4 loads R3 ensembles fine. Vaz Modular 3 loads VazMod2 synths fine. They are upgrades. T3 was a replacement product, not an upgrade.

I had not much troubles converting my old presets and projects to Tassman 3.

Then you must be remarkably patient, or remarkably lucky, because after building a 1-for-1 replica of existing synths, and 1-for-1 copies of the preset setting, then the resulting sounds were completely different between the original T2 version and the T3 port. This has been verified at the AAS forums; the underlying module code would appear to have been rewritten, and so the parameters do not behave the same way.

With 0 T2 presets received in their request for converting to them to T3, I think it is quite fair for a company doing a major upgrade focusing on other aspects.

Again, I have to ask, why does the fact that no-one requested a conversion of their own synths mean that AAS is free to abandon their promise to convert the synths shipped with T2?

I never heard of that promise.

That doesnt mean it didnt exist.

AAS always told me that it was not going to happen soon (at the T3 time).
I think it is fair for new features to be integrated in major upgrades and ask for a price.

I think it is fair for major new features to be integrated into major upgrades, but not when you have already told your user base that those features would be part of a point revision update of T3.

I don't get what is the deal with this thread.

I noticed.

I bet that if you buy Tassman 3 now you may get a free upgrade to Tassman 4 (like all other companies are doing).

Yup, if you sidegrade from Reaktor or a Nord Modular for $199, you'll get the upgrade to V4 for free. Thats what prompted this thread, which you don't appear to have read that closely. AAS seem to be more interested in trying to attract new 'crossgrade' users than adhering to promises made to existing users.

Why are you expecting AAS (why particulary AAS ?) to give free major upgrades over a one year period (I can't remember when T3 was out...) ?

Im not, Im pointing out to people that they have a long history of actions which have caused nothing but issues for their existing users, and that those issues dont particularly seem to be of concern to them.

Quote:

Im pointing out to people that they have a long history of actions which have caused nothing but issues for their existing users, and that those issues dont particularly seem to be of concern to them.

Get over it (Insert Sound of Crowd disappointment from yet another Foul Ball...)

whyterabbyt wrote:

Reaktor4 loads R3 ensembles fine. Vaz Modular 3 loads VazMod2 synths fine. They are upgrades. T3 was a replacement product, not an upgrade.

Anyone looking for an alternate modular to Tassman would be well advised to check out Vaz Modular 3. Such juicy sweet sounds! Can you say Type C 4 Pole Low Pass Filters?

And MadGav is always on the Patcharena Vaz forum and
their own site:

http://www.patcharena.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=15

Not only does he offer the type of top quality support that you would expect, but he often shows us a glimpse of new ideas such as Sine modules with Phase Modulation (ala Yamaha FM), that sound like:

http://www.martinfay.com/sounds/PMPatch.mp3

as well as multistage envelope module, etc and seems to welcome active user feedback.

As far as I know, STL (Vaz company) is only Martin (MadGav ) and Greg.

Quote:

I had not much troubles converting my old presets and projects to Tassman 3. Then you must be remarkably patient, or remarkably lucky, because after building a 1-for-1 replica of existing synths, and 1-for-1 copies of the preset setting, then the resulting sounds were completely different between the original T2 version and the T3 port. This has been verified at the AAS forums; the underlying module code would appear to have been rewritten, and so the parameters do not behave the same way.

I can confirm the rabbyt's claim.

I was working with Liquih of DashSignature to convert their old T2 instruments to T3. I did the initial build and setup work, Liquih did the fine tuning. Neither of us could get the instruments anywhere close to how they should sound. We found that a module that was in T2 did not necessarily bear much similarity to the same named T3 'equivalent'. So we discovered real early that T2 to T3 would not be a smooth conversion, if at all.

Secondly, Whyterabbyt was good enough to email me the t2 instruments that had been posted in the Applied-Acoustics.com user area. Same again-some modules and sub modules transferred, but most instruments simply did not work in T3 as they had in T2.

T3 is almost totally different from T2, and conversions are an exercise in futility.

The more I use Vaz Modular, the less I want to use T3, for all of the above reasons and more.

Quote:

why does the fact that no-one requested a conversion of their own synths mean that AAS is free to abandon their promise to convert the synths shipped with T2?

Many users probably did not ask because at that point they simply figured that it was futile to even bother trying. Why didn't AAS simply convert as many T2 patches as possible? Their very own user library
has been up now for a few months and AAS has posted very few if any T2 conversions. That would seem to indicate that coversions are either next to impossible or very low priority for them.

Quote:

Anyone looking for an alternate modular to Tassman would be well advised to check out Vaz Modular 3. Such juicy sweet sounds!

Agreed- Vaz3 kicks @ss!

db wrote:

Anyone looking for an alternate modular to Tassman would be well advised to check out Vaz Modular 3. Such juicy sweet sounds! Can you say Type C 4 Pole Low Pass Filters?

If it is comperable, then MadGav should shoot in here with an irresistable crossgrade offer us unhappy folk can't refuse

ageis wrote:

db wrote: Anyone looking for an alternate modular to Tassman would be well advised to check out Vaz Modular 3. Such juicy sweet sounds! Can you say Type C 4 Pole Low Pass Filters? If it is comperable, then MadGav should shoot in here with an irresistable crossgrade offer us unhappy folk can't refuse

Go ask him and find out, who knows? You might catch him in a generous mood?!?

Someone should record a song called "Get Over It" featuring only T2 instruments.

Only they can't.

ageis wrote:

db wrote: Anyone looking for an alternate modular to Tassman would be well advised to check out Vaz Modular 3. Such juicy sweet sounds! Can you say Type C 4 Pole Low Pass Filters? If it is comperable, then MadGav should shoot in here with an irresistable crossgrade offer us unhappy folk can't refuse

Vaz sounds great, I like the concept, but I don't know that it's much for the physical modeling that Tassman was known for. It strikes me more as competition for Reaktor, or the next step up from a powerful semi-modular like Tera2.

Doug

dougsyo wrote:

I don't know that it's much for the physical modeling that Tassman was known for. It strikes me more as competition for Reaktor, or the next step up from a powerful semi-modular like Tera2. Doug

The point was that