|Author||Topic: try the new sytrus|
Posted: 4th April 2004 17:50
its very goood
I just wanted to make some focus on this
it has a clean and nice sound
Posted: 4th April 2004 17:59
link please !
Posted: 4th April 2004 18:17
omg i soooo getting this synth on pay day.
Posted: 4th April 2004 18:19
I like it too. The pad presets, with little adjustments here and there, really have a great character to them.
Posted: 4th April 2004 18:27
iam lazy so plz give me a link...
Posted: 4th April 2004 18:29
|. . . - - - . . .|
Posted: 4th April 2004 18:29
Lex you Lazy git
Posted: 4th April 2004 18:30
Posted: 4th April 2004 18:30
Posted: 4th April 2004 18:48
Sorry if I'm pessimistic, but do we really need another FM synth? The market is way over saturated with romplers, analog, and fm synths. When are developers going to foucus on more "inventive" ideas? That is why I commend virsyn, camel, and NI for trying to break new ground.
Posted: 4th April 2004 19:03
Erm, just please at least look at the screenshots before you shit on it?..
It's not an FM synth. It's a synth capable of FM as well. In addition to all kind of other neat stuff (waveshapers, creating oscillators from partials, 3 serial/parallel filters, plucked string physical model, mega-supersaw with super unison).
Posted: 4th April 2004 19:35
According to sytrus.com it is based on 6 FM operators and only has two filters. I don't see anything about phsyical modeling and you can route audio though it. Not to start a war, I was just stating it was no big deal. Doesn't seem to be anything "new".
Posted: 4th April 2004 19:39
If I didn't already have Rhino, I'd probably be jumping on Sytrus now, esp since FLStudio is my host.
I may still do it, but it's not a priority. But I do like the sound, and I'm aware of who some of the sound designers are (Hi Tim!)
Posted: 4th April 2004 20:15
"2 filters" must be a typo. It has three filters in both the VSTi demo and the registered FL Studio version.
What's new? Image-Line have lent their skills toward crafting an affordable monster-synth. If you aren't already FM7 or Rhino owners, Sytrus is ideal. The quality for $70 is hard to beat.
Beyond FM, it's a six-oscillator subtractive synth, it allows creating waveforms via additive harmonics, it has a white noise source, a plucked string generator, randomized unison modes, 3 stereo delay lines and a multi-voice chorus.
Posted: 4th April 2004 20:20
I don't know why it says 2 filters - if a screenshot (and my own copy) clearly have 3 filters.
I also don't know what FM oscillator means. I understand that FM can describe an interaction between oscillators, sure. But FM oscillator has no meaning.
But aside from obvious mistakes in marketing delievery - your post does not have any point nor insight aside from pure negativity.
Posted: 4th April 2004 20:51
I'm asking for someone to tell me what is so special about it? Plain and simple. It doesn't appear to offer anything of intrinsic value. You act like I'm talking about your sister or something, sorry. I own a lot of vsts, alot!! I messed with the demo and wasn't too impressed, thats all.
Posted: 4th April 2004 20:59
I've not tried the synth, but to be honest, I'd rather have Imageline spend more time into improving the sequencer, rather than focusing on synths.
I'd be taking a shot in the dark here, but I'd bet that majority of people who use FLS rely on 3rd party synths for the bulk of their work rather than built in fruity generators.
I'd rather see cool ala cubase node based automation than a synth.
Posted: 4th April 2004 21:33
I've just tried the demo. Indeed, Styrus seems to have some power. One thing I have noticed, however, is a distinct "ladder" effect whenever I engage a pitch wheel - this happens on a ton of the presets in the demo version - not sure if it happens in the full-up version. It was very disappointing. It was even happening in the pads - blah. The one place I did not notice it was on the Theremin preset - if it had, that would have nixed the synth totally for me.
I really hate to say it, but every time I use an IL synth outside FL, I always find some little artifact that makes me drop it for something else close. As much as I like Wasp inside FL, I really dislike it outside - there's an audible sort of pop on key release...
Jury's out on this one. The price is good, the demo presets illustrate what Styrus can do...but that IL "not quite there-ness" shows up again..
Posted: 4th April 2004 21:48
Good presets - though not 100% sold on the pads - good sound, good cpu usage, good price. I'm interested, even though I own Rhino. This one looks easier to tweak.
However, did I miss the mono legato mode or is it really non-existant in this synth?
Posted: 4th April 2004 22:14
The "Cube" is God... all I can say. But I bet sytrus will evolve down the road. Gol has done some way cool work on it and I will buy it when I have the bux. The CPU usage is great and you can open multiple instances of it without any noticeable drain on your processor. I wish it had a standalone version though because I don't like having to open up a host just to work with synth patches and tweaks. My humble opinion only.
Posted: 4th April 2004 22:29
I thought this two minute doodle turned out OK. It's 10 instances of Sytrus and nothing else except an instance of Fruity Delay. It's also mostly presets with minor changes to them.
Being able to use 10 instances of anything is a good sign, plus there is a decent palette of sounds here that seem to compliment each other well. I think my P4 2.4 averaged around 50% as this played. It choked in one spot during live playback because I had my latency set to 128.
Posted: 4th April 2004 22:34
somebody please explain the purpose of 64x oversampling to me
Posted: 4th April 2004 22:37
Oversampling is used during the analog to digital (A/D) and digital to analog (D/A) conversion processes in a digital recorder, sampler or playback device. Essentially, the sampling rate of the converter is multiplied to a very high rate (i.e. 4x oversampling puts the rate at 176.4 kHz). This accomplishes two things: First, it allows the anti-aliasing and anti-imaging filters on the converters to be much more gentle, which reduces phase distortion. Second, in a 4x oversampled system, it results in a 6 dB drop in noise (other rates result in more or less noise reduction).
Posted: 4th April 2004 22:43
thanks for the explanation.. I was wondering about the 64x part of it. Because there is no analogue part in there, I don't get how one would need lower noise.. also 2x oversampling is enough to get rid of anti-aliasing filters doing anything anywhere near an area thats audible to humans. is it not?
Posted: 4th April 2004 22:47
Could be marketing, I'm not totally sure. That might be why people say it sounds so "clean".
Posted: 4th April 2004 22:54
Hey Shane - Not bad at all! Did you dump that directly out of FLS as an mp3?
P.S. - You should have added this into the K-v-R game song!
Posted: 4th April 2004 23:30
don't worry, image line, your fearless defenders will keep all criticism at bay, no matter what!!! No matter how generous or constructive the criticism, it is still fruity-treason! and it will not be allowed anywhere. First, we will play the victim: "why are you guys always shitting on fruity?" if that doesn't end any useful discussion, we will resort to the slippery slope and other tricks of invalid argument, and, failing that we will crush all descent with sheer number of posts, and shrillness of tone. We will resort to getting a topic locked it we have to!!! Onward image line soldiers; Fruity is perfection, and perfection is the fruit of image line.
Posted: 4th April 2004 23:35
The VSTi/DXi versions will be $179 (although it remains $79 for FL Studio users).
jmc (FL Studio)
Posted: 4th April 2004 23:35
Oh, yeah... I am glad to hear that it is out as a VSTi/DXi. That's way cool, I will check it out in my new sequencer to see if it works as well as the native version.
Sure is an interesting synth, and very clean sound indeed.
Posted: 4th April 2004 23:40
I don't know if you develop anything yourself but developers HAVE to change doing what they're doing from time to time or they 'dry out'.
I'm sure you'll *love* what's coming up next in FL
btw. Please consider that now we're getting the distribution of the boxed version working the way it should, we can't release new versions every 3 months or all the shops would be sending back the boxes they have on the shelves immediately.
Sytrus (for instance) is nice to fill the gap inbetween releases. BeatCreator is next.
Posted: 4th April 2004 23:55
lol, hey its not april 1st anymore!
<= whats with teh 180 bucks Jean Marie?
Posted: 5th April 2004 00:24
Just the fact that we didn't set up the shop yet for the VSTi/DXi versions (just got back from the Messe) so if you're fast you'll save $100
Posted: 5th April 2004 05:02
Kind of still tempted...
But when I 've messed about with the demo in FLS - it's got a pretty healthy appetite for cpu cycles.
Has this been improved at all ?
Posted: 5th April 2004 05:32
i can hardly believe someone got 10 instances runing on a P-4 2.4 gHz -- that's what I have and on 3 note chords I'm seeing momentary cpu spikes in FLStudio up from the acceptable 11-13% up to 20-25%. These spikes usually hit on attack or release. The pad Hell went to 35%.
I ran rhino on FLStudio for comparison and most pads (except some of Tim's early efforts) hung at 10-13% and didn't exhibit this same sort of spiky behavior. I don't know if this is an artifact of preset design or the sound engine. It'll b every interesting if ImageLine has time, interest an dresources to acknowledge and/or address this problem. (But then maybe it's just me.)
I like the sound -- it's a little sweet and warm for fm, but not too sweet -- still has that edge. The presets are really usable, nothing really complex or layered, but it certainly brings a sound to FLS that wasn't there before.
I really like some of the fm piano presets, but I can't see burning 25% of the cpu for a good dx7 rhodes patch.
$79 seems a good price, but $179 for non FLS users seems steep to me in the current market. I'm assuming if you buy the $79 version it's a fruity plug (working only in FLS). otherwise you're paying the extra $100 to be able to use it in any host.
I'll be sticking with my old reliable FM Heaven and rhino and still leaning toward buying FM7 someday -- because I do like fm synths, but I have to draw the line somewhere.
Others opinions and cpu mileage may vary.
Posted: 5th April 2004 05:37
we met at the music fair on thursday. It's good to see that you made it back home in one piece
Posted: 5th April 2004 06:04
That almost didn't happen ... as that fucking truck started aquaplanning at 160km/h
Posted: 5th April 2004 06:37
Glad you're OK JMC.
Take care man!
Loving Sytrus VSTi and DXi. They are a treat in Sonar.
Posted: 5th April 2004 06:38
Do they work in Sonar ? Users have reported crashes in Sonar.
Posted: 5th April 2004 06:51
NO crashes yet for me with the DXi. I will try to push it harder harder then.
Posted: 5th April 2004 06:53
AFAIK (JMC can confirm) - Fruity plug will also come with VST/DX versions as well. Except you can only buy Fruity plug if you own FL.
Posted: 5th April 2004 07:05
180 seems a bit steep to me as well......
Posted: 5th April 2004 07:08
Considering it's $350 ($250 street) for FM7 ...
Posted: 5th April 2004 07:11
I tried the demo for Sytrus and found it to be quite impressive. I won't buy it tho, at either price, it just made me determined to get to grips with Rhino.
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 5th April 2004 08:06
the web site is still under construction (JM put it online before we went to the musik messe), and there still are lots of mistakes. The one responsible will be hung.
Posted: 5th April 2004 08:13
I paid $179 for my copy of FM7 before the price went up. Now it can be found for $229 and sometimes you get the extra patchs thrown in. I don't mind paying that price for a VSTi that sounds good AND is highly CPU efficient. That will be the breaking point for me. How efficient is Sytrus compared to FM7?
Posted: 5th April 2004 08:28
Sytrus uses more CPU. Alot more in some cases.
During development it was decided to where possible err on the side of better soundquality and more power.
As a user - you have opportunity to reduce CPU usage by turning off some things - but this is not hardwired and is up to you.
|Mr. Slater's Parrot|
Posted: 5th April 2004 08:49
I bought Sytrus when it was first released. I understand that I should be able to get the VSTi/DXi versions now that they are released. I've been looking through the FlStudio site, but I don't see where to get the VSTi/DXi versions of Sytrus. Any pointers?
Posted: 5th April 2004 08:53
DL the demo and run your FLreg.
Posted: 5th April 2004 08:53
Sytrus is da bomb - especially when heard through my Genelecs, so I'll be buying it for sure.
Additionally, I think developers have to 'forward think', in that people will be upgrading CPU power - as always - so what is eating CPU cycles now will be dog piddle tomorrow. Notice that most major new software releases of good products strain the CPU. If it didn't we'd all be stuck with 8-bit crap because developers didn't have the nads to push the envelope.
P5 10Ghz here I come!
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 5th April 2004 09:03
as I already told, sytrus is as fast as it could be. It DOES eat a lot of CPU, but not more than it should. I wrote my inner loops in optimized asm & took care of every possible optimizations.
You just need to be aware that with some settings you can be running up to 18 internal voices per voice, that oversampling means processing x times more samples, etc.
|Mr. Slater's Parrot|
Posted: 5th April 2004 09:04
Got it -- thanks!
Posted: 5th April 2004 09:07
There're different opinions regarding the CPU usage in synths.
I've seen some claim that for that "killer" sound they will not care if it takes 100% CPU - they'll bounce it. The sound is what's important.
Some claim the opposite.
Personally i believe in scalability - a somewhat linear raise in CPU consumption based on what i am trying to do and what features i choose to use. Which i think Sytrus satisfies quiet well.
Posted: 5th April 2004 09:20
people will always want a richer sound that uses less cpu. it's all a matter of tradeoffs and scalability as you say.
if it sounds good enough to you that you're willing to pay a cpu price or a little inconvenince to bounce a track, all the better. or if you're willing to get less of a sound, to save some cycles...
my only concern was anybody buying it without realizing this may be an issue and ImageLine has addressed this and in a very responsible and upfront manner.
congrats on a nice fm entry. the more fm the better. hope your considerable base of users is inspired to create some killer presets, cause that's when interest really gets rolling.
Posted: 5th April 2004 09:24
Just as with everything Imageline produces - you have an option to download a demo. In fact - demos from Imageline are always very fair to the end product and are always carefully designed to introduce least inconvenience possible so that your experience is as close to the real thing as possible (without giving it away for free).
Posted: 5th April 2004 09:33
I'm sorry - I don't understand what you mean when you say that? I have done this. It's still a demo, so what changes when you rerun your FLS reg? (my momma threw me out with the garbage but the garbage company has repeatedly warned people "Please don't put anything stupid and harmful in the garbage can...")
Posted: 5th April 2004 09:37
If you have the FL Sytrus you can download the VSTi/DXi demo and run your FL regcode to unlock it.
Posted: 5th April 2004 09:53
I tried the demo, and with a few exceptions the presets seemed fairly generic, but what really impressed me was the excellent sound quality. Can someone more knowlegeable than me please explain why this synth just sounds "better" than a lot of others?
Posted: 5th April 2004 10:14
If you are not a registered Sytrus user then you need to become one.
I had already acquired Sytrus with FLS 4.51 so my reg already had the data.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Posted: 5th April 2004 10:19
FM can make some really nice evolving textures, and by design (because of the need for multiple operators) it tends to produce that more often than subtractive synthesis unless the developer creates many stages of envelopes/oscillators for you to control. That may have something to do with it. FM can sound really alive, though in that chilly sort of way.
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 5th April 2004 10:30
you wrote it yourself: it's the sound quality. Generic patches are a good thing, they're usable in songs.
I think we have both: generic patches & 'show off' ones. I mean, we have simple short blips, simple textures, but when you use them in a melody you realize they're much more useful than anything more complex.
We also have strange & complex pads, which are cool and still usable. And finally 'show off' presets (mostly the 'sequence' ones), that show you what the synth is capable of, but aren't very usable and maybe too recognizable.
So I think we have our load of strange presets if it's what you're looking for. I had to filter out some because I considered them too weird, but with the freedom of Sytrus it's very doable.
What Sytrus has over FM7 is the oversampling. FM7 has (AFAIK) no way to get rid of potential aliasing, and oversampling is the only way in an FM synth.
What Sytrus has over most synths is the tweakable unison, one of the most featured multipoint envelope/LFO/mapping editor, on many parameters.
Then you have 6 operators, FM & RM, 3 SVF filters (parallel or serial), 3 delay lines (parallel or serial), a good chorus, editable waveforms (and not just a bank). Several synths have those already, but not everything at the same time.
If you want to check out the best presets, play with (VSTi-version shorter names):
SynthStr-Formant (good formant filtering)
SynthStr-Fat texture (rich texture)
ShSynth-Bas. sub w. LFO2
ShSynth-Trance pluck 2
ShSynth-Basic distorted (for 303-alike dist basslines)
Plucked-Magnetic fields (play a chord)
Pad-Ambiance 2 (hold a chord)
those were the ones I was demoing the most at the musik messe
Posted: 5th April 2004 10:49
I'm a registered FLStudio XXL owner,and i can't find the feckin Sytrus VSTi version!
Where is it?!
Posted: 5th April 2004 11:05
Posted: 6th April 2004 21:49
Tried your procedure, Pheleep. Didn't work. Still says "Trial Version" and has intermittent noise. Is this supposed to work for XXL version purchasers of Sytrus?
Posted: 6th April 2004 23:24
Hmmm, I already had the FLS version, downloaded the vsti demo (after I found it ) installed and it came up as registered. I didn't need to request a new reg code.
Posted: 7th April 2004 00:05
I am quite disappointed. It looks so sexy...but beneath some good presets most of the sounds are not exciting. Forgive me...but for me it sounds like a bad FM7 copy with 4 times more CPU load.
Probably a matter of taste. I hear already the people throwing mud on me ...
Posted: 7th April 2004 00:15
The good presets indicate it is very capable, just needs to be programmed well. Not that i'd know how, i find the bastard very intimidating, so i haven't used it much yet! But the rhythmic presets are fantastic
Posted: 7th April 2004 00:18
I agree, it is way too proccessor heavy for what sound comes out! I tried the demo and got board half way thru the presets. Next!
Posted: 7th April 2004 00:24
Yup....I didn't want to disturb your party...perhaps I had too high expectations.
The price is OK...but they should work on a CPU optimization.
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 7th April 2004 05:26
Sytrus is very capable of the same as what FM7 does and much more. I just didn't include FM7-like presets because I don't like any of its default ones. But if you can name some you do like..
as I wrote it's as fast as it could be.
Btw the minimum required CPU isn't too high. I have a 2 or 3-years old athlon XP 1700, and it certainly works comfortably on it. But of course, P3 owners can probably forget it.
Posted: 7th April 2004 06:09
I was on the fence about this synth as well, especially since I alredy have rhino. But even though programming this is pretty complex, this is a synth that is extremely capable and has a very characteristic sound to it.
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 7th April 2004 06:22
-see the matrix as a 'mixer'. To output an oscillator, tweak its rightmost (out) knob.
To output (route) an oscillator into a filter, tweak the filter knob corresponding to that oscillator. Of course you now need to output the filter as well, or route it to another filter.
Same for the effects.
-volume envelopes are rather important. Tweak them carefully. Don't set up a too long release or (as in any synth), you'll quickly end up playing 100 voices, and unless you set a max polyphony (unlimited by default), it'll eat all your CPU.
-start using filters. Subsynthesis is easier. Use 'synth string - basic' as a start.
-don't think you suck because you can't predict what FM will do when you tweak something. I don't think anyone really can. Feedback using a sine will give a nice saw-like sound. But with more complex shapes and 'algorithms', it can be very unpredictable.
-and read the help files which contains some guidelines
Posted: 7th April 2004 07:26
Thanks fo rthe tips gol, I actually just regged it yesterday, and hadn't gotten to play with it too much just yet. The mixer paradigm makes sense, and should help me out. I had some nice growly basses coming out of it yesterday. good stuff.
Posted: 7th April 2004 07:30
To suggest that Sytrus is a "bad copy" of FM7 is silly. It possesses numerous architectural and design improvements that I've wanted to see in FM7 for a long time and has fantastic sound quality. While I'm only just exploring Sytrus for the first time, I have already stumbled across brilliant advantages that always felt limiting in FM7. For instance, I had always wanted the ability to set up panning envelopes to create more moving, evolving sounds. Sytrus' envelope system is more powerful than FM7 on several levels and I find it's waveshaping capabilities more flexible and fun to use. Obviously, it's much more advanced in the filters department too, which I have yet to explore, but I have already perfectly replicated several of my favorite patches from FM7. One thing to keep in mind though when trying to imitate FM7 is that the operator modulation amounts appear to be scaled differently. Sytrus seems capable of much more extreme modulation values by almost 70% (from what I can tell by ear anyways), so keep this in mind when making patches if you're accustomed to programming FM7. I've only just begun to explore Sytrus, but I think it's brilliant so far.
-Tronam (hopeless FM synthesis fan)
Posted: 7th April 2004 07:33
Sytrus is cool! You can "modulate" unoriginal boring sounds!! I call it the "rerun" synth of the year..
Posted: 7th April 2004 07:48
We've been at 'rerun synth of the year' for how many years now? 10? 20? Please, show me something that's totally 'new' that is new.
Posted: 7th April 2004 07:52
Posted: 7th April 2004 08:12
Excellent Gol - Thanks. I am running five instances of Sytrus on my P4PE 2.6 and it's kickin major buttocks, so I can't understand the complaints about CPU load - especially when you tweak it properly. But I can only use the demo version because as a musician I struggle to even eat properly.. Just buying FLS last month killed me. One day, if I am lucky, I'll be able to buy it cuz I think it's definitely worth it. Good work man.
In Der Tat Sie haben Weggeschafft hier gutes Schaffen ich lieben Sie rein tönen!!
Posted: 7th April 2004 09:19
Although I did a quite a few of the presets for Sytrus, after I downloaded the VSTi version and running it in EnergyXT, I was amazed at the CPU load: very good on my 2.4Ghz ! There are a few patches which can be optimized ( might be some of my own :-)As previously mentioned, the synthisis structure is staggering. Lots of modulation possibities, the envelopes are intuitive, excellent filters, as well as a 3 bank EQ to beef up the sound. The DX7 import is not bad as well, and you can get very usable sounds from importing regular sysex files ( see my dx7 page http://tamw.atari-users.net/dx7.htm )Also, the mod matrix controls have +/- control, which create different effects. A little goes a long way! When I was doing my presets for Sytrus, I actually analyzed real Dx7 patches ( from my good ol Atari Dx-heaven program by Dr T)and found that it can be done, but the controls are very sensitive! What was an 80 on a Dx7 was a +4 on Sytrus, so I went by ear. The envelopes I could copy as well. So several of my patches ( such as Vangelis, my fav patch) is a direct copy of my own DX7 patches.
All, in all, I think Sytrus is unique, and should not just be considered FM, but can do many different synthisis types including good ol Analog!..you don't need to use the FM functions at all!How about having 3 osc stacks per filter all detuned! A very FAT sound! But I also found you can create fat sounds using only two oscillators: add chorusing, and subtle effects, and good envelope programming, and you can get a good sound from very little.
Thats my 2 Cents...glad the VSTi version is out!
Posted: 7th April 2004 10:00
Thank feck for that, I thought I was deaf or stupid.
Still managed to get one preset into the release version.
Posted: 7th April 2004 10:13
Don't give up on this, after some time it's possible to get along quite well with FM. My first FM year was pretty much trial and error, right now I'm at a point where I find it quite intuitive...
Posted: 8th April 2004 08:27
Does anyone know how to configure the operator oscillators so that they are free-running, like in FM7? Is this even possible?
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 8th April 2004 08:34
it's the 'global' checkbox
Posted: 8th April 2004 08:46
Much appreciated, Gol! I assume then that since the 'Global' checkbox is unique per operator, whichever operators with this option turned on will be perfectly in sync with one another, but will be free-running and independent with it turned off?
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 8th April 2004 09:58
no, when off it always starts from the same phase. When on, it's free-running.
I chose 'global' because I use the same in the LFO section.
Posted: 8th April 2004 10:34
Oops! I guess my logic circuit failed me this time (it's not the first time and won't be the last). Thanks for the clarification.
Posted: 8th April 2004 10:56
How can I assign CC# to knobs or the X/Y Controller? Anyone tried this yet?
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 8th April 2004 12:03
the VSTi version publishes its automated parameters. The XY mod are also linked to MIDI modulation and breath CC's
Posted: 8th April 2004 13:29
Time for an uninformed opinion......
Played around with Sytrus last night and really liked it. Obviously, its similar to Rhino (which I have been very close to buying for some time now) in a lot of ways.
First impressions were that I prefer its sound over Rhino. Just first impressions though, so don't read into that too much. In general, it sounded pretty nice, and looked like it had some stuff that Rhino doesn't. For instance, it looks like it had panning envelopes per osc. Is that right? Anyway, so it sounds good.
The interface seems to be laid out very well. Its clear and easy to navigate around.......but.....now for my biggest gripe about Sytrus......I run my system at 1280*1024 on a 19" monitor and this synth looks....ummm....tiny?....I know a lot of people don't like plugins hogging the whole screen (Arturia stuff?), but surely this could have been a bit bigger? I just found editing to be a bit of a pain - for example, altering harmonics....Am I just a whiney bitch or does anybody else agree with this?
As it stands I think I may be slightly more likely to buy Rhino as I think in the long run its interface is less likely to annoy me - even though I prefer the sound of Sytrus. As a sidenote I think Rhino will also be skinnable soon - allowing repositioning of controls too.
DISCLAIMER: This is a completely uninformed opinion based upon using Rhino Demo for a while and Sytrus demo for an evening
Posted: 8th April 2004 13:32
Just re-read my post and thought it sounded a little too negative on Sytrus. So, just to rebalance my comments a little - it does sound COOL! Rhino too! Try the demos.
Posted: 8th April 2004 14:04
Just trying the demo - its lovely. I was trying to get the XY controller to work with my Korg joystick controller though but the cursor just seems to hug the edges and won't go into the middle - any idea whatI can do about this? - I assume I've done something wrong.
Posted: 8th April 2004 17:44
Thanks, man. It has a mood going for it, but not much more. I really need to stop playing around with gear and get my compositions finished.
No, I wrote out a wave and then converted to an mp3 using Adobe Audition.
Posted: 11th April 2004 03:10
Did anyone mention Sytrus now imports DX7 patches?
Posted: 11th April 2004 07:00
Tim did. He also gave a link to his site with a whole bunch of patches. But perhaps if you posted a Floopbert, it would help em' remember
Posted: 11th April 2004 07:02
Ouch ! poor FM7 ...
BUT : microtuning via scala or tun files please, bigger GUI ( for some elements to have a normal size )
And a FM7 presets import !
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 11th April 2004 11:21
I wanted to build this in FL itself, but it would quantize the pitch offsets up to a cent, so I'm not sure it'd be the best. It would also work on the FL version only, I have no plan to add microtuning to the Sytrus VSTi.
Now is microtuning really useful for other things than tempered scales, which (if I understood their use correctly) aren't that useful if you have a chorus that smoothes the potential 'beats' you hear with some chords?
Posted: 11th April 2004 12:08
I use microtuning most of the time with VSTi's that support it because one tuning is some frequencies available with same intervals ; with those microtuning files you can have access to all the " unreachable " frequencies.
Ethnics is the first thougth but you can have some that " distort " the keyboard like spreading it across 50 - 2000 Hz for instance with any interval you want.
I'am just an user of those files, no time for digging Scala.
Especially for FM / AM this can produce many many more timbres with a single preset.
I " tune-shift " very often : it's very important and potent feature ( for me at least ) + it's really spreading ...
Tobybear said it wasn't hell to implement ( he's a strong proponent and also made Scala Converter : a .scl to .tun converter)
FM7 has a crude microtuning editor ( no thanks ! ) and Rhino imports .tun files, Sytrus no ? boooh !
Posted: 11th April 2004 12:10
Sytrus sounds great! But, what it is as compared to some of the great synths I can download for free Styrus is a bit overpriced to me. Maybe when there are no other studio budget concernes I'll pick it up.
Non-the-less, as I said above, it does sound great!
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 11th April 2004 12:22
actually you CAN do microtuning in Sytrus, but I agree that it's probably too boring:
you just need to edit the keyboard mapping for the pitch. If you switch the 'global pitch' checkbox, you just need to do this for the first oscillator.
You need a good sight and patience, but when you're done, you can still save your map and re-use it in other presets.
If you set the pitch env accuracy to, say, 50 cents, you already have a lot of accuracy vertically.
Check the 'Drum - kick' preset, you'll see that the keyboard covers a small pitch range.
Posted: 11th April 2004 12:39
Gol, is the interface likely to change at all, or are you pretty set with how it is? After a weekend of use I love this synth, but still wish that some parts of the UI were bigger. I appreciate that I may be in a minority (it looks OK in 1024*768, and maybe a lot of people like to use presets rather than program/tweak), but it seems such a shame for what *could* be one of my favourite synths.
At the moment I'm still on the fence about spending $180 for something that I love/dislike
Posted: 11th April 2004 13:22
Fine but not enough !
Fortunately, speaking of Tobybear I totally forgot about his own Microtuner Midi plugin, part of the Midibag : http://www.tobybear.de/p_midibag.html the PDF said it should work in FL.
Hopefully and as said in the PDF it works in my SX 2 !
But more clicks to do obviously ... grrr !
There's also a link for developers : http://www.tobybear.de/d_tuning.html including Scala Converter
Should think about a donation soon.
Posted: 11th April 2004 13:33
Finally with the GUIs of Sytrus and Microtuner side by side, I have no excessive clicks + Microtuner supports drag & drop of files sooo ...
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 11th April 2004 14:42
I'm set to 1280*1024. I have something against oversized UI's.
(but maybe it could be a prob at that res with a blurry CRT)
it can be down to $49 if you buy everything from IL, or down to $79 if you own FL.
Posted: 11th April 2004 20:45
Thanks for the reply, Gol. I share your view on oversized GUIs (as I mentioned in my earlier post, where I mentioned another company's style). In hindsight, it would probably help if I was more detailed - as I can get by with most of the UI. Its just a couple of items that I do consider important.
As I'm fiddling around with sounds I'm coming back to the harmonics editor to fine tune each osc. These are 3, 2 and 1 pixels wide (I think) and can be really tricky to alter. A more useful editor could easily fill the main window used for envelope editing. How this could be incorporated into the UI and still have a logical flow to the user I do not know ........ maybe if the harmonics were tabbed per osc (just like pan/vol etc. are)?
Anyway, sorry to be running away with ideas for your app that you would probably have no intention of doing I'm just trying to be constructive about it as I really do like Sytrus a lot and think that it could be one of the best things out there. Thanks for programming this!
Oh, finally, I'm a non-FL user. On the online store it says:
----Sytrus FM Synth (Fruity) US$ 79
----You get the Fruity, VSTi & Dxi version.
You get the VSTi and DXi too? Do you have to enter an FL registration code to get it at this price (because the alternative is the $179 price)? I'm just trying to figure out the cheapest way I could buy the VST.
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 11th April 2004 21:48
I must say I'm not sure since JM mailed me some days ago about setting both prices to $179.
But normally: it's $179 for non-FL customers, and $79 for FL customers.
So you could as well buy FL and add Sytrus for the same price. I'll ask JM to confirm.
Posted: 12th April 2004 00:16
Not really. Our backoffice software will just refuse your order when it detects you don't own FL (and ordered the $79 version).
Anyway. In order to take away the confusion we're probably gonna do a blowout sale at $79 to all FL users and than just keep one version at $179.
Posted: 12th April 2004 01:08
i have FM7 and still not impressed with sytrus. IMHO...but may have evolve over time. fm7 to me still have way more features. and GUI is a little better....
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 12th April 2004 08:01
Posted: 12th April 2004 10:29
Really? To me, Sytrus seems to be the most featured FM synth out there. Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with some of the others(I haven't played around with FM7 as much as Rhino, Sytrus), but this seems to have so much more programmibility. Especially at the oscillator level - multi-point envelopes for vol, panning, controllers. Three filters that you can use as low, band and/or high-pass.......variable oversampling..... There definitely are some nice things about the other FM synths that this doesn't have, but I think I'd rather have the features of Sytrus. Anyway, just my opinion
Seems like the best thing for me to do if I want to buy Sytrus is buy FL ($99) and then get Sytrus ($79). Even if I don't use FL (I'm a Tracktion user so I'll just use the VST version) I'll still be a registered user and it may mean I get discounted prices on synths in future.
Posted: 12th April 2004 10:51
That's a good buy. Fruity running through Tracktion via ReWire makes an awesome drum machine, and you get access to a load of other interesting synth engines to boot.
Posted: 12th April 2004 10:57
What is it with you guys and pricing? Having a slight greed fit or something?
First 79 bucks for both, then 79 for fruity and 179 for the non FL user version, now you're talking about 179 no matter for whom?
I bought sytrus... I like it.. but please.. get real on the pricing policy, this is more than putting off.
Posted: 12th April 2004 11:52
From what jmc mentioned earlier (blowout sale of $79 to registered FL users) it seems like that price will be around for some time......who knows how long. For FL-users, I think that's a very, very good price. I guess it just means that you need to buy soon if you want to get Sytrus at the reduced rate.
Anyway, I need to go check out what the $99 FL gives you versus the $149......
Posted: 12th April 2004 12:10
Yeah, it would be nice if you would clarify what you mean by "way more features". As a longtime FM7 user, I am very curious.
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 12th April 2004 12:24
First, it's much more than real, since it's still lower than the competiting synths.
Then, been there done that, it appears that you need to have a price aligned on the competition if you want to be considered as serious. FL-customers are used to low prices, but VSTi customers aren't.
I've read a lot things like 'a $99 app can't obviously do as much as a $399 app', or 'the reason FL is cheap is because of the lower quality mixer/DSP/hidden compressors/[insert other BS here]'.
So by pricing it the same as the competition, I claim it to be as good as the competition.
This way, if you think that the competition is better, then buy it instead. I don't even want the price to be a factor here. Except for FL-users since I'd like it to be more used in FL.
Posted: 12th April 2004 12:37
Does running FL via Rewire offer an advantage over running it as a VSTi?
Posted: 12th April 2004 12:39
I dont really give a damn what the price is, but the point is you keep changing it.
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 12th April 2004 12:41
it hasn't changed yet, it's still the same original price for the FL version, and the same recent price for the recent VSTi version. It's only a discussion about changing it.
Posted: 12th April 2004 13:19
Valid point......an example is Tracktion.....its laughable that this very intuitive and powerful program, that only costs something like $80, probably has a fraction of the user base that the more established sequencers have. I guess we're willing to write things off as cheap n' nasty if they cost much less than a similar product.
Posted: 12th April 2004 13:30
just funny that - considering you are pro and try to reinforce that image - you discuss your pricing policy with your emmployees/affiliates in a public forum and after you already released the vsti, and already changed the price once.
It would make imagline customers feel a lot more confident about the products they acquired if you guys wouldn't do this stuff in public, and furthermore decide on a price beforehand, not after you released. This currently looks like some "lets try to make a cool synth in SE - hello world" project. Doesn't really do sytrus justice.
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 12th April 2004 13:53
how does it? I spent more than 6 months on this synth. After this, the price is JM's business. I just told him that it'd better be priced according to the competition.
Do you think there's a REAL justification behind the price of a VSTi, other than the alignment with the competition? When you made a VSTi, you set it the price that people can afford, and not higher than the competition. Whatever it cost to make.
Do you really think that a $800 compressor plugin cost more to make than a $200 synth? Of course not, but if the compressor is better than the competition, people are likely to spend more to get it. What I'm saying is that the price of a plugin isn't carefully thought as you'd believe it is.
If according to JM, a $79 price is fine, then let's do it for FL users. But as I'm confident in the quality of the plugin, as JM believes that the VSTi market is too small, as there are more benefits in setting a high price than a small one, and finally as it still ends up cheaper than the competition, then I see no reason not to set that price.
And I don't want to improve the image of the plugin, I just want people to consider trying it. I prefer to hear 'it's too expensive for what it is' rather than 'it's crap, but it's cheap so it's ok'.
Posted: 12th April 2004 13:57
xRavenx, to be fair to them, some of the discussion has been in response to my questions on the price as I wasn't sure of the best/cheapest way for me to get the VSTi. They've tried to be honest in their answers, and admitted that it was a little confusing - which is when jeanmarie said they might, at some point, make it $179 across the board.
Posted: 12th April 2004 14:10
I wasn't debating sytrus' quality. I bought it so obviously I find it's good.
I'm not debating how much time it did cost to make sytrus either.
But I find that you guys shouldn't discuss pricing on a public forum, and not change it over so often. 179 bucks from the start with an announced x-day special for FL users, thats perfectly fine. But this looks like you guys change pricing every week.. always for the more expensive.
Posted: 12th April 2004 15:19
Maybe the Sytruses ( Sytruses? Sytri? What is the plural? ) are selling faster than they can make them.
Posted: 12th April 2004 21:13
For me, no matter how good a VSTi is I will never purchase if it's over the $100 mark. As a long-time Image-Line customer, I was surprised by the price for entry.
However, I can confirm that the $99 FL Studio is very good. It lacks the wave editor and ASIO recording, but I expect users who use another host won't need these. Everything else (most generators, fx, internal controllers, automation, instrument layering) is still in there.
My take on the pricing:
Sytrus alone for $179 = too much
FL Studio for $99 = superb
FL Studio for $99 + Sytrus for $79 = a solid deal
I think FL Studio itself (layered samplers, 3xOSC's, granualizers, internal controllers, with automation and fx) is a far deeper tool for synthesis than most realize. The combined pair of FL Studio and Sytrus is a stunning amount of synthesis power.
Posted: 12th April 2004 21:51
jzero, if you can do complete productions in a sub $100 environment with sub $100 synths congratulations. No snide comments meant.
I use several sub $100 synths, many do not hold up in a mix. There are reasons why some synths are expensive. Also, when you get to that range you are getting the equivilent of several synths in the sub $100 range.
However this is a ongoing discussion.
Styrus sounds overpriced. I didn't upgrade to FL Studio as I have other sequencers I'm more comfortable working in. FL was a great drum sequencer. IMO it is gaining features a bit too fast, almost like the FL guys want to ramp up the prices to commercial sequencer levels. They are getting pretty close if you buy the packaged extras, a concept I've disliked for years.
Best of luck to those using FL Studio and doing the upgrades. Styrus is a decent enough sounding synth but honestly, some people seem so tied into a certain way that they would justify any price or compare features in such a way as to justify their purchases.
Usually people with really expensive synths do this but it seems a trend with FL. I was a longtime user but stopped at Studio. As stated before, it's a good setup if you like working in it. It was always somewhat not my thing and as the costs rise there's nothing to keep me as a customer.
Posted: 12th April 2004 23:50
I can and I do. The production values I can acheive with FL Studio are superb. This is because a) I've audio engineer training/experience in my background and b) the software is powerfull. Statements like that one you just made are the reason why JMC's pricing increase is justified. Despite quality, software is not deemed pro without a "pro" pricetag. That's aggravating because the consumer loses in the end.
"Hold up in a mix" is a very subjective evaluation that depends largely on the engineer mixing. The dollar is a bit weak now, but are you saying that impOscar, Vertigo, Discovery (all at 100pounds or less) are somehow less in quality than say Native Instruments products?
In reference to Reaktor, agreed. I'm not convinced for other high-end products.
The feature comparisons in this thread are legitimate. Sytrus has a very similar feature-set to FM7. As to your "justifying purchases" comment, that's unfair. The implication here seems to be that I'm over-valuing FL Studio, attempting to influence other purchasers because I need to feel better about my own purchase... Uh, no. I value the quality of Image-Line products so I mention this in threads from time to time. I truly believe the extent of FL Studio's synthesis capabilities are largely underated and underutilized.
Posted: 13th April 2004 01:19
First off, what are you debating in monetary form? You mention sub-$100 pound, that's sub $170 dollars!
Styrus can't compare to Rhino. Rhino can convert DX-7 patches and do a hell of a lot more. Price - $100. I'm not saying it's bad, just not the premire FM synth some make it out to be.
As for pricing, I'm poor, I can't afford exensive equipment and when I do get something I put a lot of detail into learning about it. As a reviewer I know a good amount of what most synths on the market do. I've reviewed or will review about 80 VST instruments this year. I'm also a sound engineer, as in the last job I was able to work at was as a sound engineer and composer. I no longer work due to disability, but that has nothing to do with my ears or capabilities as a recording engineer and mastering specialist.
I will not name specific synths as I have no desire to be rude and say negative things about their synths capability to hold up within a mix without harmonically being saturated by more precise synths. FM-7 always comes through no matter what it's used for. You hear a larger range than it's fundementals and a couple overtones.
As I said before FL has never suited me personally as a complete production tool. It works for you which is great. Statements like mine have nothing to do with other people's decisions. If you put any time into knowing me you'll see I dislike people out to turn a quick buck, or pound or euro. But I do like companies that put a lot of value into their $225 (street price) plugins. VirSyn and their staple of excellent synths for example, Rob Papen/Lin Plug with Albino 2,
rgc:audio's lineup, BigTick's Rhino which is a beast of a synth at $100 USD.
And btw, screw anything that claims to be professional. Professionals don't much care what gets used as long as it works, but ask them about FL. If they know about it they aren't going to think much. In fact, beyond Pro Tools they won't give a damn because they are pretty much stupid when it comes to computer based equipment.
You mention impOSCar. It is a great synth. I beta tested it and think it's worth well beyond it's price. It's a favorite in my rig but in the U.S. we are talking $170 for purchase, not below 100 pounds. Keep the transactions straight. And while we're at it, most expensive plugins aren't above $190 USD store price. Can't speak for discoDSP products, can't afford them.
And in regards to Sytrus - I said it was good sounding. I said that some people find it necessary to defend FL products. That's been going on for years when all upgrades were free and it hasn't changed. I did not write or imply jzero personally does this, read what I said again without being defensive.
I don't intentionally affiliate with companies intentionally. Of course, I have my favorites but when it comes to being honest I can be. Right now I have the luxury of getting to understand and write about some of the best synths I've come across hardware or software. The last thing I would be is disrespectful to developers. I have too much respect.
Have a look at some of the work we are currently involved with at my site, the url is in my sig. I give away "product" that could fetch a decent price on the market. That's my way of doing a kindness to companies that trust me to do write the best review money can't buy.
Maybe I stepped in at a bad time in the thread, sorry if that is the case, but you are talking to someone that will use ConcreteFX products over Native Instruments, they don't make anything above $70 and if you want to talk value look there, or at Dash Signature. These two companies are keeping prices down and making high quality synths. But by the same token I'll laugh all night if you tell me Vaz Modular 3 isn't a brilliant program and worth every penny, or TERA 2 which does five different types of synthesis to make one of the highest value for dollar synths out there. And it runs right beside Dash's EVE which may run beside fxspansion's BFD which if you've never used will change a lot of people's perception of what value is within a drum instrument.
I like good sound. And again, I never said Sytrus wasn't good. I said there is a lot of justification going on about it. Fact: for $12 more you get much better bang for the buck with Rhino. You get some incredible patces to start you off. I am biased in that I beta tested Rhino 1 and have started testing Rhino 2 which will also add user samples. Upgrade cost? $0.00.
It's not like FL wrote the book on quality and customer satisfaction. In fact, I stopped using FL because I watched them behave, in my opinion, unprofessionally here at K-v-R and up at their own boards.
I was a FL paying customer. I didn't see FL Studio doing anything better than Sonar 2.2 let alone 3.x Producer. When FL gets the Maxx series and Lexicon reverb quality in Sonar then we can talk. Until then Synapse got my upgrade money instead of FL. It's just as personal and reasoned as you see your opinions.
I respected yours, try to respect mine.
Posted: 13th April 2004 01:40
... and *that's* of course a valid reason to change hosts
Damn. Now I'm unprofessional again
jmc (FL Studio)
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 13th April 2004 01:41
like what? just write a dozen things it does more & I'll write a dozen sytrus does more
[and it's not to diss, it's just that telling what FM7, Rhino, or others have over Sytrus can help me improving it]
Posted: 13th April 2004 01:52
I think a lot of ppl are easily put of the behaviour/attitudes of devs on forums. Sometimes its difficult to have a sensible conversation on a board such as this, type doesnt come across the same as a face to face conversation, so sometimes words can be taken the wrong way.
All boards FL/Synapse/Cubase have probs like this, but at the end of the day, its down to the devs to be adult and keep control, and not rise to the bickering.
Sometimes that doesnt happen, and arrogancy takes over, thats where the probs start...
Coffee, black, two sugars please
Posted: 13th April 2004 01:59
Hello FL Team,
I just noticed that in your "fruity" sytrus (79$ one) description on your site... One can read :
"You get the Fruity, VSTi & Dxi version."
I think that's a mistake, or did i miss something ?
BTW, i'm also surprised with this 179$ price...
Posted: 13th April 2004 02:02
It's incredible indeed.
I'd *pay* to have a personal answer from any of the developers of the apps I use/love/dig/... (Photoshop, Max, Delphi, ...) but instead people start shouting because feature x or y isn't implemented on the spot.
As you know (or not) we used to do adult games (indeed : filming girls on blue screens and having fun with the result in Premiere) but stopped this as it didn't bring in enough money and the whole scene was pretty boring.
Well I have to say I had to redefine the meaning of boring when we got into the music scene. Hour long debates about the price or look of a synth or about why stuff is TOO expensive now the $ dropped vs the Euro, ...
I was under the impression the music scene was about about gigs, chicks, bikes & fun ... until we got into it : We just did Namm in LA & The Music Messe in Frankfurt and I believe we counted 6! woman worth looking at (2 of which we brought ourselves ).
Can you all please have some fun and produce some music (with our without IL products) ?
Posted: 13th April 2004 02:05
Not really. At first we didn't have a VSTi/DXi version so we could only sell the synth to FL users (@ $79 WITH the promise they'd get the VSTi/DXi version for free when it was done).
When we released the VSTi/DXi versions we set up the $179 price (for non FL users).
Guess we're gonna keep up the $79 price for another month for FL users and then have one single offer at $179 [edited] to avoid all the confusion.
Posted: 13th April 2004 04:55
jmc, roll your eyes, but customers are paying attention. You think it's not important yet respond to my statement. What's the point if it doesn't matter.
I seem to be the only person concerned. Ok, you tried to show how unimportant it is or how stupid I am to bother being concerned with how a company acts. Got your message but already knew it.
gol, be honest, do you want to waste time writing out a hundred reasons why Sytrus is better than the synth I stated was better? What could be so important to make you want to do that? So I'll chalk it up to you trying to make a point. Here's where I would leave the issue.
I like other synths over Sytrus. You don't agree and neither of us will. I can agree to disagree and hope you can as well.
Had I reviewed Sytrus it would have been favorable. At $179 there is no way I will be purchasing it and somehow I don't think I'd get a NFR version to review. But understand, I have no agenda or axe to grind. I just don't agree and some very innacurate things were being said so I politely challeneged the statements.
I hope things go well for any independent company and that Sytrus and FL Studio do well. I do jmc, whether you believe it or not. I'll go one better, Sytrus won't be mentioned in a negative way at the site. You have my word here. You may think otherwise but even though you've lost me as a customer I'd defend FruityLoops in a heartbeat in terms of it's quality and use. I have in the past as I've recomended. We won't run the FL article that was scheduled, who needs the headache of waiting for someone to object to the correct amount of homage paid it.
Posted: 13th April 2004 05:23
What do you mean ? What did you want me to respond to ?
It's really scary to see how everything is always turned around and seen as a personal attack if it doesn't really sound the way one expects.
Anyway. All I was trying to say is that we're no gods or anything. We just try to deliver a decent product and IMHO we're doing a great job at it. If you don't like it just don't buy it.
We're not forcing anyone to buy/like/use our products (at all). On the contrary. All chargebacks cost us an extra $40 on top of the money that's withdrawn so by all means : DON'T buy our products if you're not 300% sure you like it. I mean this.
Don't worry : We're doing quite well with FL and the new stuff we have up our sleeves will blow everyone out of the water by the end of the year.
About Sytrus : We have the advantage of a very loyal FL user base so any decent synth we do will sell a couple of 1000 in the first 6 months. Not sure about the success as a VSTi/DXi though but a lot of people seem pretty enthousiastic about it so who knows ...
What are we talking about here ? Who's 'the site' and who are 'we' in this ? Can't really follow anymore (but that's probably because getting about 400 mails/day). Can you ellaborate ?
jmc (FL Studio)
Posted: 13th April 2004 05:56
I'm a registered FLS user as of last month. I like it. But I am also an experienced product marketer.
One thing I am afraid of is that FLS will become the "shell" for a lot of high-priced add-ons that most of we working musicians and electronica composers will have to sweat big time/dollars to buy.
So far, I love FLS and as long as Gol and JMC respond to critique in this forum, it goes way big and cool in their favor - as far as I'm concerned.
But I can't afford to buy Sytrus - plain and simple. I am using the same FM7 & V-Cube (with updates) I bought a year and a half ago. Even though I would love to have Sytrus, there is a declining value in any new synth that doesn't offer heaps more than what we all bought a year ago - at least not for that price. So I think IL needs to think about this.
That said, I WANT to have Sytrus, but instead I sent some donation money to some free-vst developers for their fine (and rather prescient) efforts in developing stuff we all really really need - like good delays and raw FX engines, etc..
Sytrus is a GREAT SYNTH!! But for the bux, so is my FM7 and my Cube, and with a few add-ons, I can't really hear much difference at all - saying this with the utmost respect for Gol and his inestimable talents...
My point? Sytrus should be no more than $15.95 for registered FLS users, and I am both worried (see marketing philosophy blurb above) and pissed off that it's not.
Again - Let me highlight my point:
...there is a declining value in any new synth that doesn't offer heaps more than what we all bought a year ago - at least not for that price. So I think IL needs to think about this.
**Now, after I have said all that, I bet I'll never get any beta invitations from JMC again!!
But I DO love my FLS...
Posted: 13th April 2004 06:12
Don't worry : We just licensed over $30.000 of DSP & other stuff that will be available for free in the next release.
We're not here to make everyone that already owns FM7 spend another $179 (it won't be worth it).
We just wanna convince people who are considering buying a new synth that there are other (and very capable) alternatives.
Posted: 13th April 2004 06:27
Thank you for that response. You stated it in a public forum, so I will hold you to it!!
No, Gol's work is immaculate and - dare I say - inspired, and I love Sytrus - and yes - it is a very credible first-buy for new-entrant FLS users (or those that are a bit more cashed up than me)!
That said, I play with the demo all the time - and I admit that I cheat by dumping it to wav files to use in some other stuff (when will the IL hit-man arive at my house?).
But I still have an issue with the price. If you sold 10,000 units at $15.00 each, that would be $150,000.00 dollars US - surely enough to cover the development costs (I have lived and loved in Copenhagen). AND - as per your own statements in previous threads here, 80,000 purchases would be the norm...
Hmmmm... No wonder you drive a Porsche!
Posted: 13th April 2004 06:42
when you respond to me I questioned why you bothered doing so if it wasn't all that important to you. I wasn't asking any additional questions, just rhetorical ones.
I was trying to not continiously plug the site but it's called musicFAQ and is located at http://www.musicfaq.net. I'm the owner and the last thing I wanted to do was argue with you at all, let alone at K-v-R.
I can not state this enough, although for me there are other programs that I would use as an overall solution that doesn't mean I don't respect the work done in FruityLoops and it's various synths. I would never have purchased it, SimSynth and Wasp had I felt this way.
We are still a bit shy of content but are working constantly. In fact, too much for me. I have m.s. and frequestly get so tired I fall asleep 15 minutes or so at the computer/music area of my flat and feel ill for a couple hours. Repeat 2 - 4 times daily.
I need to make some music That is what is important, don't you think? That we argue a bit less and make music.
My webmaster and occasion reviewing partner and I do most of the work. I really am working on learning upwards of 80 synths and although it's a task it's also a privilige, I was a recordinig and performing artist. Losing that ability was horrible but I've been given a second chance and am enjoying all these wonderful synthesizers that are being developed. I stand in awe of developers for the work I could never imagine doing. Several reviews are complete, some synths and programs plus related articles need further study. Until we have a bullet proof site I'm trying to hold back on going public.
My experience with most developers has been cordial to downright friendly. As I said, despite what transpired in this thread I couldn't write a negative review on a instrument that I thought was interesting, in this case Sytrus. We stay positive, I wrote the rule and live by them as do any contributors to musicFAQ.net.
I am saying that no matter what kind of relationship we have you need not concern yourself with us, we would never go negative, nor is there reason to. As you've noted, you have a lot of units out there. People like your product. I used FL for a couple years too. But I will not back down on this - I make my decisions based on how companies act towards happy and unhappy customer. Frequently there seems to be intense and irrational reaction when anything is questioned about FL and it's products by people on the site and ocassionally by you. You seem to think this is a stupid gesture on my part by not dealing with your company any further and I have no problem with this. It's a choice I made and if you re-read what I wrote most of it was harmless and not intended to start a big fight.
I was looking for someone to do an in-depth article and review on FL studio, our reviews feature interviews with the developers and songs using the synth/software to give a good idea of how things work in context. I don't think you trust me to do right by you and I can't personally do the article, I have no means to purchase almost any VSTi, especially at $179, even if it comes with a fully functional work environment.
I hope this explains things. There are no hard feelings on my side. I wish everyone invloved the best of luck. Keep the independent spirit alive!
Posted: 13th April 2004 07:21
Of course. The only problem is that a typical VSTi will rather sell 300/year than 10.000 and for $4.500 we can't pay Gol for 6 months you know. Luckily the FL user base gladly makes up for the difference
Where did I ever state that ? We gathered a little over 25.000 FL customers (in 6 years) and FL outsells our VSTi/DXi plugins about 500 to 1 so ...
We have been driving Porsches for 10 years before FL studio (or even Image-Line) existed.
Please note that we have been (and still are) doing a whole bunch of products (like Vision, Portfolio, Company, RealTime, EquityExpert, Blokken, Fact2000, EZGenerator, Private Investigator, EatThis, ...) since 1987 that don't have anything to do with music.
If you wanna do some research just check out :
Now consider that the development, marketing, box & add design, distribution, ... for ALL of the above is/was done by about 5 people.
Posted: 13th April 2004 07:26
So where is this porn stuff you used to do?
Posted: 13th April 2004 07:26
On the contrary, I love how Imageline treats their customers!! Maybe i'm an oddball, but I purchased FL for what I can do with it. And what I can do with it changes on average 2 to 3 times per year, always in a positive direction!!
You want to know how they treat you?? Look at the release notes for every update they've done, and just about for free!!!
True, they're not your traditional business folks: they actually have a ton of fun making what they want. I'd rather reap the benefits of that, than reap the benefits of traditional business men: upgrade costs, new replacement products which do the same thing but cost you an arm and a leg (again and again), who then take that money & sponser a forum that caters to all your needs: to reap ideas for their next product, so that they can charge you again, and again, and again. We've all seen this, paid over for a different version, different format of a software that we've already had bought.
I hope JMC & the FL crew keep what they're doing & not turn into what we all may think we want them to be!
my 2 cents.
Posted: 13th April 2004 07:32
In that case you shouldn't have any problem in digging up a couple of those intense & irrational reactions do you ?
It must really be the language barrier (being natively dutch speaking with French as second language) as I can't recall any outburst that could lead an existing customer to buy another host.
Anyway. I'm REALLY curious to see what kind of remarks made you dump our products.
jmc (FL Studio)
Posted: 13th April 2004 07:36
I didn't even consider those lost 5 years.
The problem is that most of those products don't run under XP so nobody carries them anymore.
Anyway. Just google :
... for more info.
Here's the cover for PornTris (I'll see if I can dig up any others).
jmc (FL Studio)
Posted: 13th April 2004 07:38
Here's the game that started & funded Image-Line :
SCSI for the adult content.
jmc (FL Studio)[/list]
Posted: 13th April 2004 07:47
OK. I could swear I saw you quote that figure in sales before in this or another forum (I will try to find the quote), but no matter - that's not the real issue & I hope you guys make zillions and own 10 Porches each! And I am already an EZGenerator user, so no need for the products detail but 'tac' for it anyway... Perhaps you have failed to note in previous posts that I am a generally outspoken satisfied customer of yours - and have even recently been accused of being on your payroll for defending a certain IL product...
However and be that as it may, what I want to know is, where is the auto-erotic porn synth download these days?? You know - the one where the virtual babe plays your flute??
All in good yooman yoomer...
Posted: 13th April 2004 07:59
You probably won't believe it but we (also) 'invented' the TeleVibe (a device that made any CRT or LCD display communicate with an [usually erotic] toy).
This enabled producers of video's to interact with the toys of the one watching the movies.
The main customers here were (as usual for new stuff) the adult industry but we also had very satisfying responses from toy makers that could then make a doll do stuff based on what's happening in the movie.
Anyway. We sold this for $1.000.000 in stock to Private (stock that multiplied by 3 in the months after the deal) on the condition we could get it patented world wide ... which apparently wasn't possible because of a conflicting patent someone filed in 1979
jmc (FL Studio)
Posted: 13th April 2004 08:10
DAMN!!! I suppose it's way too late to be a
I have to say, with the ultimate end-product of Image Line's commercial persuits being FLS, then God Bless Pornography!!
Posted: 13th April 2004 08:14
It may be the language issue.
I didn't dump your program, I bought it as a supplement to my other sequencers. When there is a use for it I would use it. I've used other sequencer/hosts since 1990 and had to train people on them. I like Sonar and if I had a Mac, Digital Performer. They work in a way I relate to. But I used FruityLoops for years now and have put in a good word at other sites as well as at gigs where audience members would ask about the drum and rhythm parts, we even credited you guys on two X Space CDs.
As I said, best of luck, Sytrus sounds good and appears to be your best synth currently.
I don't have time to dig throgh the archives to find exact quotes. You expect me to substatiate the things you said a year ago? I don't see the point and don't have the time.
If you feel I said something terrible please take it up with site management. Maybe this will offend you as well... A review from amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005LKXV/qid=108186838 9/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl65/103-0065205-9592632?v=glance&s=softwa re&n=507846
thats all I could dig up within a reasonable time, and that's the end of it.
I told you I was fair towards your product but you have to continue this argument at all costs as if there is some way to win it. This illustrates my point. You don't know when to stop. This is as far as I'll go hunting to make my point. Now move on, I'm not going to diss your products, you don't have to worry about what musicFAQ does.
I don't want to argue with you jmc. Although you lose my respect at times I stil respect what you and gol have done.
Posted: 13th April 2004 08:45
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sytrus can import DX7 too. Also, Rhino is listed at $130 on BigTick's site. I apologise if this sounds nitpicky or I'm trying to find faults in anything you've posted. I just thought that they were fairly important things to bring up as there is a big discussion about the pricing and features.
Posted: 13th April 2004 08:49
Not that I wanna drag this any further but this is what we always get : "You're a bunch of arrogant bullies ..." and when we ask to point us where we are so rude it either gets silent or people suddenly "don't have time for this kinda stuff" (ignoring they just wasted A LOT of time in the same thread).
Euh. A couple of minutes ago you tell us "But I will not back down on this - I make my decisions based on how companies act towards happy and unhappy customer. Frequently there seems to be intense and irrational reaction when anything is questioned about FL and it's products by people on the site and ocassionally by you." and when I ask you what you're talking about you bail out ?!?!
Must be the language barrier as well but over here we call this kind of behavior just 'impolite'. Anway forget about it.
jmc (FL Studio)
Posted: 13th April 2004 09:00
So now suddenly you want 179 bucks
Hahahahaaa...thanks for this very entertaining thread!
And congratulations to your complete reality loss!
Posted: 13th April 2004 09:03
Not suddenly : Just since we released the VSTi & DXi versions.
You're welcome but it's our sense of reality that made us price the VSTi at $179.
jmc (FL Studio)
Posted: 13th April 2004 09:06
All due respect x_bruce but your reacting a little strangely here. During the course of this thread you have been asked to substantiate two very reasonable points (What can Rhino do that Sytrus cannot. What were the intense and irrational reactions exhibited in the name of FL). This you have failed to do... instead acting like you've been attacked and pushing your website.
Take it easy man. Think about it: the time you spent typing replies to messages regarding a synth you do not even want could have been far better spent - it sounds like you have lots of more interesting things to do.
On a more relevant note - I can recommend Sytrus as a great synth. Definately worth a look at.
Posted: 13th April 2004 09:33
There's very little mystery and it's pretty transparent what is going on: Imageline chooses to reward their existing userbase, who can order Sytrus for as low as 49$ (as part of XXL).
A nice little kickback to the FL comunity and loyal customers (which by the way contrary to the constant rumors spread on KVR - is alive and kicking with hundreds of posts a day and generally good and productive behaviour).
Nothing wrong with that, working for Victoria Secret you get to buy panties at the substantial discount as well.
Sytrus pricing is aligned according to competition. If you don't like it - you really don't have to buy it.
Posted: 13th April 2004 09:42
Ah yes, very true, but people get their panties in a bunch around here when the price more than doubles in a very short period of time, esp if they were considering buying it, and didn't have the cashola at that very moment.
Posted: 13th April 2004 09:59
Thats ok, there's no shortage of plugins they can buy.
I am pretty sure prices will change many times during the lifetime of the product - they'll get a chance to pick it up some other time if they still wish too.
People act like it's some kind of insulin their life depends on and tripping over each other trying to voice yet another opinion.
Posted: 13th April 2004 10:43
You've been here almost 3 years, has that changed at all? Hasn't in the last year I've been here. The board is just growing too fast now.
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 13th April 2004 10:59
but what's hard in telling what you prefer in other synths? How can I improve it if you don't bother to?
It's like I read that FM7 has so many more features, I ask which ones, and get no reply..
Posted: 13th April 2004 11:07
It's a deal
Posted: 13th April 2004 11:08
Well gol, the only feature I would want (and you may not see the point, which is fine) would be to add a wave/sf2 file import a'la Rhino or crystal. It would be fun to FM a Rhodes off of some strings or a drum kit. The results may or may not be very musical but may be good for atonal noise making.
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 13th April 2004 11:13
yes it is!
I was thinking about adding sample loading to Sytrus, then kinda gave up, because musically it wasn't that useful.
But you're right, maybe for drums or weird things..
Posted: 13th April 2004 11:20
ooooo SAP, thats a cool idea. i wouldn't mind having that on Sytrus. I like weird things
Posted: 13th April 2004 13:08
Or you can consider paying same 179$ except getting FL (99$ version) and Sytrus (79$ since you are now FL customer).
Yeah it's a con to get you to buy FL.
Posted: 13th April 2004 13:16
It's not a con... it's an incentive. Heck, I don't see how FL could possibly be a detriment to anyone's virtual studio, especially considering it's remarkable Rewire/VSTi/DXi/Standalone flexibility.
Posted: 13th April 2004 13:45
I am just trying to gain trust of KVR humanoids by communicating in KVR native language. You know, conspiracy-ripoff-con-shadowgovernment-speak.
Posted: 13th April 2004 14:01
Ok, first off I've discussed all I will discuss with jmc via PM.
I have maybe 2 days a week where I can work - period. I won't spend any of that time going through year old bbs files among other things.
I also wanted to protect my work at my site but that seems not possible. So lets get this over with.
Rhino may have gone up in price, I didn't know. Thank's for pointing it out. Here goes:
I like Rhino's sound better
When 2.0 comes out it will import user samples.
It's filter is exceptional compared to most synths imo. I do not think Sytrus' filters are as capable in dynamics nor do they have the ability to sound warmer than traditional digital synths.
By using AM and FM Rhino has a lot of character which is expressed not only in leads but in it's evolving pads and rhythmic elements.
READ THIS CAREFULLY. I prefer Rhino's sound with and without effects vs Sytrus. Does this mean I dislike Sytrus? No. In fact, as stated several times now I would have given it a very favorable review but I still think Rhino has a unique sound that few synthesizers touch, let alone replicate.
Sytrus is what it is. FM7 is a DX7 with some modification but as I said in my FM7 review, it's a bit old. For DX7 conversions it's a great synth. I don't care much for DX7 conversions so it doesn't matter to me. I care for a synth's character.
Rhino has extensive multi matrix capacities and it's workflow is very fast once learned.
Besides beiing a good synthesizer it has the capacity to go beyond FM and in particular with it's warmer subtractive filter has an eerie capability of getting warm analog type tones and when I say analog type, I don't mean it kind of sounds like analog. I mean if it were played with other analog synths I doubt there would be many people if at all who'd be able to tell.
With it's ability to use six oscillators and to cross modulate it also comes close to phase modulation.
So we have phase modulation, FM, AM and a strong subtractive element.
The effects are excellent.
It is a VST, DXi and standalone.
BigTick has an impeccable record of quick tech support and listening to his user base. He has always shown great respect and he has at times taken shit for things that were not the fault of his instrument.
The layout while not the prettiest thing to look at is very functional. It is single form and tabbed as needed.
The waveshaper can make a complex, useful waveform out of a sine wave.
Currently there are a multitude of small sampled waveforms. I believe there is a tool available to make your own. In version 2 you will import them directly and the limitations will be far smaller. I'm under NDA, there's only so far I can discuss without having to ask 'tick first. But you will be able to do things to samples that go beyond the SY99 implementation and this is a key part of the product. Seeing as it will be out soon although I don't know the date but can confirm it's in very good shape beta wise, I'm at a disadvantage as I can only discuss the older version.
Things that strike me most about Rhino:
sounds like a boutique hardware synth, balanced sound with a big bottom and smooth high end.
Easy to set up for use with hardware controllers
While capable of playing FM it is a bonus rather than a major feature and that is very important about this synth.
Considering it's capabilities the amount of CPU is acceptable. The biggest mistake new programmer make is throwing the kitchen sink at patches. They might sound good but they are capable of being tweaked to make Rhino fairly efficient.
What am I missing? Two multi segment filters defined by the user. 18 preset filter modes. User learn of controllers...when using the oscillator matrix you have the six possible oscillators, two amplitude modulators, two filters and mixture of the raw waveform vs the convoluted timbres. Around 30 basic oscillator types in 1.0, again, 2.0 soon which allows samples.
16 position step sequencer with randomizing, veleocity and note length. These can be tied to a proram or switched around as you can load and save them. Don't remember offhand how many cam with the synth. I always sue my own. Step amounts can be from two on up to sixteen. I love this page because you can set up some elegant to eerie rhythmic timbres.
Im forgetting a bunch of stuff...
Six assignable controllers per patch, as it can be a stand alone instrument and controlling things live is always good. Back to the waveshaper, it is not super intense but more subtle. If you want intense you can get there but the emphasis on most controls are balanced towards musiciality rather than specification padding which looks great but has issues to say the least.
The effects are available in two seperate sections. Effects are a whole other game. If you choose yuo can use them to save CPU. One very nice aspect is switching effects routings. Consider reverb and delay. Put delay after reverb and you get a warm sound with the degree of delay used, reverse this and youget a enveloping kind of modulated wash of sound. There 18 filters, 2 which are ringmodulation and distorting. There are tons of alternative tunings available through scala format.
There are 640 stock presets and many more avaialble.
Rhino is capable of all types of sounds from basses/leads to pads, fx and an organic sound that features what was best about Korg and Roland sample playback devices although there are no multisamples here and to call Rhino an FM synth is short changing it.
Ok, those are a few good things about Rhino. Gol, feel free to explain why Sytrus is better. I don't think you can because there will be people that simply will not like one or either of the synths and of course people who like one more than the other although that seems to be a "try at your own risk" proposition on this thread.
I don't know all that Sytrus can do but I got a very good chance to work through it. As I stated many times but seemingly hasn't been paid attention to, is I think Sytrus would have gotten a very good review had we done it. However, until the VST/DXi versions are out - or has this happened yet? - there's no way to objectively compare. By this I mean trying both VSTis in different VST/DXi hosts.
gol, this is directed to you specifically. You appear to have coded Sytrus and I congratulate you on a fine job. Just because I like something else more means nothing. It is strictly personal taste. I don't care if a synth costs a small fortune there are some synths that do unique and special things from freeware upwards to very expensive synths.,
For me to update to Sytrus I'm paying $179. I'll take it on the person who said Rhino is $130. It's less expensive, it's ready now and it is undergoing some substantial upgrades. It is proven in the software I might use and what I always use. It was mature after it's first update but came into it's own at the 1.0.9 update. The Rhino developed a personality that made me consider the FM7 unnecessary and I like the FM7.
Seriously Gol, if in some way I seemed to diminish you acomplishment I'm sorry for that. I've stated it it several times now but since you really wanted some justification of Rhino's merrits I'll say it again. I think developers are interesting people with a rare gift. They have brought a tremendous amount of hapiness to my life.
Why I didn't want to do a comparison. It's not fair to BigTick Audio to go head to head with another company especially since their spocksperson is not the one doing the comparison. It makes me uncomfortable as I'd hate to have missed some crucial points 'tick might have been able to expand upon. This might not seem important to you but I do respect you guys and hate the idea of playing off one another, especially since I think Sytrus and Rhino are partially compatible but also very different synths. Please, if you must explain why you think Sytrus is the better synth remember you are talking of someone's work as discussed by a technically oriented person, not the devloper. Should there be any animosity please also keep that away from your discussion. BigTick makes their synths, you guys make yours.
I hope that explains one big reason for not wanting to do this. Secondly, to answer why I will not dig though 12 - 15 months of substantiating posts regarding behavior that was not likeable to my tastes this whole post exemplifies it.
I don't think it's simply me. I've gotten a couple emails asking why "those FruityLoop guys want blood". What am I to say, no, I don't feel like these people are all over my ass? I do feel that way.
And now to some a familiar story but to some faces here an eplaination of why I resent the time spent on this thread. I have multiple sclerosis. I do not feel well a majority of the time, like now. The day started reasonably well and I had hopes of getting work done on some articles for musicFAQ.net along with a better user interface. Instead most of the day has been spent trying to diplomatically remove myself from this thread. It is not that I don't believe what I said but becuase I've been getting 2 reasonable days a week and five bad ones for the last four months. This is relatively good compared to before new treatments but it is a serious setback for me. So when I do have a decent day I like to take advantage and do work or possibly get out and enjoy some outdoor weather.
I deal with unbelievable physical pain, a 5 year headache that lasts 24/7 even on a 'good' day and difficulties moving my arms and legs. So responding to complex posts is not a great way of using my time. But I brought myself into the issue and I'm attempting to finish things, that and I'm starting to get sick. Perhaps some of you think this is bullshit or an excuse. You wouldn't want to know what I thought of you in that case. Nor do I want pity, save it for someone you don't want to argue with. You want to know why it's so hard to respond? Easy. Right now I can't make out the letters on the screen, they are a blur and glasses nor any operations will help. I spend more time correcting text because my hands shake, but I want this over, so I'll put up with that. Chances are 50/50 that I won't be able to get out of the chair without assistance becasue I've spent the day dealing with this issue. I could have avoided it and lost no face but I'm doing this for the opposite reason. I do not say things I do not believe and I don't say things without backing it up. Unfortunately I refuse to dig through the dirt for the proof of poor attitude, but I don't need it as that combative attitude is evident and reads loud and clear.
Remember, I tried several times to extricate myself in the hope of saving my decent day and because I genuinely don't want to argue with Image Line. But that seems to be something that no one can let go. So you have the synth statement and I resent the hell out of the people that demanded it. If you have the lack of taste and decency and start beating up on a synth because you are pissed off at me, any of you, then you are not worth putting one iota of attention to. I'm far from perfect but as I've demonstrated I have not made it a habit of going to war with the FL users and worse, developers.
I lost most of a day because you folks had to have your answers and because my behavior anywhere I'm at matters. I feel I must be honest and specific especially if I cause an uproar. So you've got the remains of my first decent day. Hopefully you know why I like Rhino. You can't possibly expect me to like an instrument I haven't spent much time with and don't have a license for. That said, I do work with a lot of synths and even on terrible days I force myself to learn things, even if it's learning how to work with more complex synths and even more arcane programs that I hope will eventually open new doors for some of the people reading this thread.
From the discussion, I suspect some of you wouldn't care if I dropped dead two minutes past this post. Take that as a direct comment on what I think of you and the mob mentality that somehow comes up when someone dares speak their mind about FL.
Gol, if you still think I'm being unreasonable we have nothing futher to say. You don't have a concept of what it's like having to deal with some of you from my standpoint. And Gol, it really makes me sad to think you would consider me someone who isn't fair about your work. For the last time, had I had the chance to review Sytrus it would have been very positive because there are many good things about it, but that doesn't mean I have to want it for $179. That's less than $50 away from the GPO or East/West Orchestra libraries, either of which are vastly better deals. If you don't use classial instrumentation that might make the libaries worth nothing to you. Our difference, I try to be objective. There wasn't a time Sytrus had a bad thing said about it.
This revovles around another issue which will not resolve it appears no matter what I do.
Enjoy your days, I'm pretty much done in on mine.
Posted: 13th April 2004 14:06
Have you learned NOTHING on here? You forgot to add -virus- to the list. Sheesh. Ameteurs.
Posted: 13th April 2004 14:08
Woah!, looks like i've really missed something here.
To be honest, i'm not gonna sift through all these pages of posts, I don't want to become part of any flame war I wasn't even aware of, I'm just gonna respond to the title thread instead
So my opinion of Sytrus, I've only been using it a little so far and just been dabbling with the FM side of things for now (both inside fruity and standalone version in Cubase SX), but I was immediately struck by the sound of it!. A nice thick substantial sound. This seems to be a running theme of the very latest soft-synths comming out of late.
I really feel we're hitting a major turning point this past year with soft-synths that have really substantial 'clout' and sound meaty, ya know what I mean. Whereas in the past I may have felt hardware synths still had that kinda edge. I just don't feel that way any more and hardly touch them.
Comparing FM7 and Rhino to Sytrus, i've tried all three, gotta say Sytrus is the one that's inspiring me the most, the adjustable over-sampling is a really nice touch and does make a difference.
Great synth, recommend it to anyone wanting a taste of FM synthesis (and indeed RM synthesis etc, but as I say, still just playing around with it!).
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 13th April 2004 14:37
so you don't really know much about it
but you did write:
and instead of telling what the 'hell of a lot more' is, you subjectively compare filter qualities.
Except for sample loading, all of the features you wrote (matrix FM, AM, waveshaping, etc) are done by Sytrus as well. Even DX7 import (which I don't consider good compared to FM7, but I don't know for Rhino)
Posted: 13th April 2004 14:43
x-bruce, dont waste your time, seriously mate
Posted: 13th April 2004 15:11
I finally gave up on this thread because I cannot understand the point of the argument. Sytrus seems to be anohter option and options are always good. As a FL Studio owner I would grab it, except that I already have FM7 and Rhino. But for all those FL owners who do not have FM7 or Rhino, again, a good purchase.
And I don't think there is anything coded into FL that makes it sound worse than any major DAW. It is not the sound quality that makes it different, it is the work flow. Not everone works the same, so again, a variety of options are good. I can understand how FL Studio owners may be defensive. Many times Pro Tools and EMagic owners tell me that my Sonar 3 progream is second rate. But Sonar fits my needs.
|. . . - - - . . .|
Posted: 13th April 2004 15:24
Posted: 13th April 2004 15:28
FM synthesis sucks.
Posted: 13th April 2004 15:49
FM synthesis sucks.
Thats because Tracktion's poor sound engine really cannot handle the warmth, depth and Virus-like qualities of it.
Posted: 13th April 2004 15:49
Oh, don't be coy. Tell us how you really feel.
Posted: 13th April 2004 15:53
AnotherBob, everything you stated is correct. I didn't want to do this comparison, it was demanded of me by the FL guys.
Kriminal, I can't remember the last time I lost my cool towards a two individuals let alone a company.
My mistake was being polite. It won't happen again.
gol, read the synth discussion you insisted on again, you asked for a list of things Rhino did, nowhere did you mention specific rules, you didn't say give me a technical discourse, you asked 100 things I thought were great about Rhino. I think I outlined Rhino quite well although I have no idea how many issues I discussed.
How are you doing phase distortion synthesis? I see a bunch of traditional FM stuff, and I'm not cheapening your work - for the 5th time, it's a nice sounding synth but get your facts accurate.
And filters make or break a synth. Rhino's are so wildly capable they deserve mention again. The filter on 1.09 is gorgeous sounding. Analog synth designers should iquire about it, that's how good it is.
And since everyone insists FM-7 isn't as good (!!!) how about this. I would suggest to any potential Sytrus users to purchase Reaktor Sessions and download many of the numerous DX7 clones in the libary. Sound quality and import are excellent and you get a few hundred synths that you'll find more than useful in Fruityloops as a VST instrument or standalone. I will personally selecct straight clones, modified clones including a synth ew and I worked on, kind of like a modern SY-99. I'll even do an article on getting good classic synth sounds in Reaktor/Reaktor Sessions. If you just can'd deal with that crappy old FM7 sound. we'll help you put together a nice step by step synth with a filter effect and a good multieffect.
See gol, I don't mind trying to make the peace but when you distort what I say and know the circumstances under which I've writen them you rate zero respect as a human being. I know you have no use for me so it's a I Ching thing. Balcance is restored.
Congratulations, you are officially the first company I wouldn't talk to again although if there's public sentiment later on and someone wants to write a FruityLoops Studio with all the works review it will get the same treatment as all other vendors although you have lost my respect and I wash my hands of anything you do
Posted: 13th April 2004 15:56
Posted: 13th April 2004 16:16
Classic. So classic.
Posted: 13th April 2004 16:49
Posted: 13th April 2004 16:53
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 13th April 2004 17:26
depends what you're talking about.. how do you do this in Rhino?
Sytrus has envelopes/LFO's for each of the osc phases, but I haven't seen it used yet. You can set up an LFO to vary the phase of a playing osc.
If you're talking about non-interactive phase dist, then there's one kind in the waveform editing ('skew').
Posted: 13th April 2004 17:59
I tried the demo and I must say it's filter(s) comes very close on particular presets to Vanguard's filter(s).
One of those trancegate presets is a good example on how warm it's filter sounds.
I think developers are really closing the gap between VST's and Hardware synths lately (like Access's Virus ).
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 13th April 2004 18:20
honnestly, I think that when people say that they like a filter, they're more often talking about how that filter is articulated. To me the filter slope and how it's enveloped matter much more than the type of filter.
I made the 'brass - smooth' preset after I was told that Sytrus couldn't do Vanguard-style presets, and I think it's convincing.
ok, I had indeed asked you to come up with a dozen of things Rhino does (this was more asking about things that Sytrus doesn't, but anyway), so my turn to give features:
-multipoint envelopes, multipoint LFO's, both with automation, key/velocity/mod/random/unison mappings (yes you can control each of the voices in the unison)
-oversampling (only known way to avoid aliasing with FM or waveshaping)
-6 oscillators, with envelopes on panning/volume/modulation multiplier (from other oscillators)/pitch/phase, DC offset removal, attack click removal, free-running..
-plucked synthesis with control on its damping filter
-osc waveform tweaking controls
-3 filters, in parallel or serial, 12 to 36dB, with low/band/high controls, and automation/envelopes on each
-3 waveshapers, with automation/envelopes on its mix with the dry signal
-FX bus, with envelopes on its input
-3 delay lines, serial or parallel, stereo phase offset, invertion or ping-pong
-full-featured chorus (I think it's great)
-FM & RM matrix
-velocity soften mode
Posted: 13th April 2004 19:38
Yikes, I can't believe I read through this whole thread when I should really be working on my taxes. The only way to recover was to fire up FLStudio and let the beautiful sound of Sytrus sooth my mind.
Seriously, Sytrus is an amazing synthesizer. As a FLStudio owner, it is a nobrainer. I am surprised to hear that some users won't even buy it at the XXL sales price. Come on people, what are you thinking?
I was never inspired by the FM7 synth sound and I was not inspired by the Rhino demo either but maybe that has to do with the patch selection. Anyway, at $79, I thought Sytrus would compete very well against Rhino. As much as I love Sytrus and all the ImageLine products, I think that $179 is the wrong price. The closest competition is now $50 cheaper and it is getting upgraded with wav import. Match the Rhino price and let them go to war. Yes, us FLStudio owners want to see some blood!!
Posted: 13th April 2004 22:40
Good luck with Sytrus. I still think its good and it interested my until the price went to $179. After all is said and done, we still disagree but I feel no need to continue arguing.
I hope you continue to develop new and continued interesting synths. As mentioned many times your work is impressive no matter what our opinions are otherwise.
As for other issues brought up I think the way this thread was conducted illustrates what I originally stated.
Posted: 13th April 2004 22:48
It indeed was another typical showdown of the Image-Line well-known "frequent intense and irrational behavior"
Anyway. I hope they'll find a cure for your medical condition soon as all things aside nobody deserves this.
JMC (FL Studio)
Posted: 13th April 2004 22:55
jmc, there are lots of people worse off than me. I hope one day to convince those doing well to put some money to charity. I do, it's much better than giving it to the church. (can hear a whole new series of responses being written ).
Good luck with Sytrus. I hope you consider the price but you've got to do what keeps you in business. $79 was an attractive price!
Posted: 13th April 2004 22:55
Ok after trying Sytrus, I've changed my mind to:
FM Synthesis **threads** suck.
Posted: 13th April 2004 23:38
OMG!!! It´s too expensive!!!! I won´t buy Sytrus and I must write 18 pages about it. My destiny is to argue about VSTi´s as we all know they are the most important pieces of software ever known to mankind.
Posted: 13th April 2004 23:45
nice to see at least one member has read and digested fully the K-v-R code of practice ...
Posted: 13th April 2004 23:48
Yep. I have seen the light :p
Posted: 14th April 2004 00:56
With the phase envelope.
'Tick (how did I get myself in there ?)
|tony tony chopper|
Posted: 14th April 2004 01:02
so playing with the phase envelope IS useful? Sytrus has one, but it's only there because it was easier to leave it (I only wanted phase mod mapping). I never got anything interesting out of it, but I'll give another try.
Posted: 14th April 2004 01:17
Yes it is useful. To tell the truth, I was never able to get anything nice from it myself, but Daniel has made some lovely PWM-type sounds from it. Then again, he is a master sound designer