(The following has already been said in this forum, but I´ll say it again. )

Some sample producers (Best Service, East West and Zero G) don´t release some of their samples on normal sample CDs/DVDs anymore. Instead they make sample collections (Cult, Morphology, Vapor, Elektrik Piano, Galaxy Steinway 5.1, etc) with every collection locked into its own custom sample player, based on Native Instruments´ Kompakt/Intakt samplers.

That is not good at all. Let me tell you why:

- The NI custom players won´t play any other sounds than their own, hence their name custom players.
- You can't play the samples in Kontakt unless you pay for the 1.5 Kontakt upgrade.
- While you can import the samples into Kontakt, it´s not possible to do that without installing the custom player.
- Since every new NI custom player is a program, it helps clutter the computer registry, eventually risking instability issues.
- You´ll need a new authorization against copy protection for every new custom player.
- You will have to learn a new interface for every new custom sampler.
- Why pay for an extra NI custom player when nowadays most sensible people already has a software sampler (or can get it as freeware) and only need the sounds on a sampler CD?
- If you buy a NI custom sampler today, it is likely to be dead in just a few years. There will be little interest for anyone to update an old custom sample collection when sequencer hosts/computer operating systems, etc, change. A sample CD, on the other hand, will be usable because the sample formats stay the same. (The AKAI format has been around many, many years.) And, like AnotherBob has pointed out, what happens when NI decides that it is no longer profitable to support challenge/response request for old sample collections? What happens when you want to edit a song a few years from now and cannot load up a signature sound because you cannot get past the C/R?
- If the custom players, if not likely, actually get updates, you will have to pay for every one of them.

Whatever the hype says, the NI custom sample players are a concealed form of copy protection. And, from a consumer standpoint, it´s a short-sighted form of copy protection, because the sample player and its samples run the risk of being worthless in just a few years. A sample CD, on the other hand, will be usable even if the software company in question goes down.

So, Best Service, EastWest and Zero G, please release your sounds on sample CDs/DVDs!!

Sincerely

Klagga

The sheer novelty of individual players will still tickle the masses, drawbacks or not. Kids will compete for player collections, & (as an added bonus against warez collectors) the individual collections will tie up file transfer sites, so there are some advantages. You gotta admit, it's clever marketing, shameless as it is.

Ok, better not get Atmosphere, Trilogy, or Stylus either, or anything with the UVI engine either, but Atmosphere is the hottest selling VSTi out there. Hmmm....

Oh, and installing programs that clog your registry which could corrupt it? Oh please, give me a break. Better not install software then! And not every program makes registry entries either.

KvR always gives me a good laugh some days with the logic.

Devon

I can not see a problem with that. The NI samplers are considdered the best (after giga that is).

The advantages are many

1. The samples can be tweaked and customised to make best use of the sampler's capabilities
2. No lost data or wrong layering importing into you own samplers
3. The sampler is included and no need to buy a new sampler if you do not have one yet.
4. The authorosation system is very friendly (You can authorise for 2 PCs and change the code when you change PCs
5. No Pace

And some more I can not think of now.

DevonB wrote:

Ok, better not get Atmosphere, Trilogy, or Stylus either, or anything with the UVI engine either, .... Devon

And sampletank, plugsound, sonic synth... etc etc.

Hi, I am kind of new here in this forum and I am surprised to see how much time some people spend in slating down products of manufacturers. I am a user for many of all these new exciting virtual instruments and I am happy that they are available. I understand that some of you have problems with regsitrations, However, this is the deal since the very first days of Microsoft and Apple and it was never convenient as we all hope. The other side is that when I see the new products EASWEST and Zero-G have released for just 129.95 retail, I have to say that there is nothing to complain at all. it has more samples than the older sample libraries and a great engine included for free. What more can I ask? I am not using KONTAKT, way to complicated and I feel much better suing Athmosphere as it is or Bosendorfer or the great Orchestra Gold edition that fighting with my sampler and loading up samples. Sure everything should be compatible and running within every product availble. But this is a dream and not realistic. I dont blame these companies to try to copy protect their work and I appreciate the huge varitiy I have now to choose from. I haven;t seen that many complains during the times of all the incredible hardware synthesizes, where minor changes had forced everyone to spend anothert 3000 or more to get the "newest" expander or workstation. And where are the complaints about the computers? There is where you loos a lot and have to buy here and there and nothing works togehter. But yeah complaining about a great proruct for under 200.oo makes sense.

I think some people are too young to remember the $100 for .wav's and $200 for Akai disc days. You got MAYBE 650 megs of stuff, if you were lucky. Now, I can get samples, with its own player, programmed to take advantage of the player, and some are cheaper than the old Akai discs. The Akai prices certainly haven't changed over the years. But libraries with 2-3 gigs of sounds for $129 is a steal. Might as well go whine about a disc that's in Roland or EMu format only, because you don't have a sampler than can use them either.

I'm actually quite happy to these these more 'budget friendly' libraries coming out. Atmosphere is great and all, and I bought it, but I know plenty of people who can't afford that kind of cash, so these are great alternatives.

Devon

My two cents worth:

First, while I understand that a lot of folks will want the "raw samples", I myself am more of a composer/performer and not a sound designer.. I want to load up a sound and PLAY DAMN IT, not jack around with the thing for hours before I can get started. So, for someone like me, it's a Good Thing. I think that's a result of starting off my musical life as a guitar and bass player (lol).

Second, as to being obsolete quickly and unsupported, these instruments are no different than any other VST/VSTi I bought. The developer could go out of business, Microsloth could make a version of Windows that my software won't run on, etc. etc. - it's just the way things work (oh well sigh). Same with the hardware I used to own - my U20 was obsolete in a couple of years, and getting parts/support from Roland was a pain (and sometimes impossible) - it's not just a software thing.

And finally, as long as they don't use PACE I'm willing to buy them.

I'm just interested in the software equivalent of my old trusty TG-55, a box with a lot of good presets that I could tweak with minimal effort. These products will do just fine for that.

oh and I remember spending almost 10,000 in one year just for hardware samplers, that are crap now. I could get every available software products just for even less than that. I love these days and all the new products.

woolyloach wrote:

My two cents worth: First, while I understand that a lot of folks will want the "raw samples", I myself am more of a composer/performer and not a sound designer.. I want to load up a sound and PLAY DAMN IT, not jack around with the thing for hours before I can get started.

Can I make one minor statement to that? Make that a minor FEW who want to tweak. Most people don't tweak at all, it's the power users that want absolute control.

Amazing how much hate and discontent there is around here these days. Least most of us oldbies can spot bullshit a mile away.

Devon

stevie97 wrote:

oh and I remember spending almost 10,000 in one year just for hardware samplers, that are crap now. I could get every available software products just for even less than that. I love these days and all the new products.

Ensoniq ASR-10 bought June 1995 for $2600. EMu E64 bought December 1995 for $2765 I think it was? Man, $5000 can get you a lot more than two samplers these days. I'm GLAD those days are over.

Devon

Oh and I forgot to reply to the first topic here,

well on side it should be compatible with KONTAKT and on the other side with free shareware samplers, then it should hold for more than 2 years (I cannot remember one product at all that was good for longer than two years, because Microsoft and Apple is dictating the length of a product circle )

Akai Samples in these days sounds like crap and this wont change. Without the huge job of all these excellent producers we wont having the incredible libraries in these days. I am happy that these limited days are over

However, I just want to say that we all should get back and feel excited about these products.

I think another benefit of a dedicated sample player attached to the sample is it eliminates compatability problems. There is no excuse if the samples do not play in an optimized way in the included sampler.

But I also consider myself to be on the lower end technologically speaking.

JeffN

Even if NI or other sampler manufacturers go out of business, there will always be some who´ll provide real samplers for the widespread sample formats.

Saying "this is just the way it is with computer software" is not serious and will only make things worse, when software developers because of that keep the assumption that nobody cares if their samplers work for just a year or two.

Let´s just see what some people will say a few years from now, when all the expensive NI custom toys are dead and (by the manufacturers, at least) forgotten.

expensive NI toys? I am sure someone is not getting the picture. These products are not expensive and a convenient add on. Hardware samplers were expensive, that's for sure and a good audio computer or a MAC is expensive. Well I am sure that you don't spend money on any hardware at all. You never bought a synthesizer?

Anyway this will continue the path as it has started and it will be much better and more software related in the future. I am very confindet about that.

As an owner of a majority of NI's products, I have to agree with Klagga to use caution when buying NI's custom sample players (or any of their products).

While NI is a big company, I would not say it's a good company. It's approaching (but not quite at) Steinberg in the level of lack of support.

Specifically, I would say I only receive email replies on 2/3 of the email I send them.

They seem to have some troubles coding to PC architectures such as DXi and VSTi. I've seen bugs that affect NI products that never occur on others.

There seems to be a disconnect between the tech staff and the development staff, as bugs reported don't always get fixed (even if they are major).

NI's C/R works, but as all C/R processes are somewhat of a hassle, NI causes more hassles due to updates that don't always work, leading the user to reinstall/uninstall and go through the C/R process many times for the same products.

NI has started a nasty habit of charging for minor updates.

Add all that together, and I'm very weary of buying any NI product that I expect to work for more than a couple years.

I have specific examples to back up each of my comments.


I don't have a problem with other companies that do similar things. For example, Spectrasonics uses the 3rd party UVI engine and they also use C/R, but I don't have a problem with this company. Their products worked out of the box, and their support has been beyond the call of duty to address the concerns of pre-sale customers. I feel confident my investment in Spectrasonics products will last more than 2 years. (Though, I really wish they'd release demo versions of their products or set up some stores with in-house copies. Sigh.)

I'm also going to consider the SampleTank/Sonic Reality series of products as soon as they release a v2 demo.

-Brian

I just love how people get all lathered up in paranoia! The fear of 'what might happen' doesn't, and never will paralyze me from making a purchase of something I want or need NOW. I know I certainly BARELY use my sample CD's I bought in 1995-1999 timeframe. I imagine it won't be different 5 years from now for stuff I buy now. Things get better, you get other interest in what's new and interesting. If not, then you have what you have now, and use it.

Devon

stevie97 wrote:

expensive NI toys? I am sure someone is not getting the picture. These products are not expensive and a convenient add on. Hardware samplers were expensive, that's for sure and a good audio computer or a MAC is expensive. Well I am sure that you don't spend money on any hardware at all. You never bought a synthesizer? Anyway this will continue the path as it has started and it will be much better and more software related in the future. I am very confindet about that.

Expensive is 'relative'. If it's so expensive, then you don't need it, so don't buy it. Pretty simple. There's tons of freeware out there, and nothing is stopping anyone from grabbing a mike, recording your own sounds, or doing your own sound design with freeware synths either. Get crackin' people!

YES I'm being a smart ass, but I find some of the whining rediculous.

Devon

I agree with thenumber23.

The topic is about NI custom sample players. I do not include Spectrasonics in this. That company naturally stand behind its own products.

But it´s hard to believe that NI care as much what other manufacturers do with their custom samplers, and even if NI did, there probably wouldn´t be too much for them to do about it.

To DevonB:

"The fear of 'what might happen' doesn't, and never will paralyze me from making a purchase of something I want or need NOW."

Good for you. You may have the money to spend on custom samplers that won´t work in a few years. I don´t.

But the more people think the same as you, the less do the software developers have to care for the long term usability and stability of their products.

oh yeah IU have to agree paranoia. I remeber days were people came into the music store I worked and were just excited about al these new things. Sure there were problems with almost every electronical equipment but what the hell, it was fun and evweryone used it, regardless if he / she was a pro or just a beginner.

In these days everyone seems to judge over all these bad manufacturers and how much faulty they are. No one questions if there is something behind it and all the good credits someone gets. I am not defeating Native here, I know that they are not best when it comes to support. However, there is no difference to all the other manufacturers. I see three products from Spectrasonices while I see almost 60 with the Native engine. I have to say bravo guys thats a hughe job. I have downloaded the latest updates from their side and it goes into the right direction. I am sure thay will fix the bigs step by step and if not, sure use something else. I am tending to use the tools that offer me the sounds I need while I make music and I am not just collecting goods. Most all my NI products worked in what I did as well as they did in all thes huge productions from others I have listened too. Well again there are critics that are needed to be done but it has to be much more precise and not just saying oh dont buy anything that has a Native Instrument engine included......that is all bullsh...

Others have good experience with their products and their suppoort and some have bad ones. I have bad experience with my Toyota car and I had one with my Audi...yeah these companies are crap as well.
Since my hard drive from IBM blow up I have to say they make crap only. Just examples how easy it is to say how "overall bad" a company or products are.

klagga wrote:

To DevonB: "The fear of 'what might happen' doesn't, and never will paralyze me from making a purchase of something I want or need NOW." Good for you. You may have the money to spend on custom samplers that won´t work in a few years. I don´t. But if more people think the same as you, the less do the software developers have to care for the long term usability and stability of their products.

I love your 'certainty' that they won't work in a few years. What utter bullshit dude. If it works now, and you never change anything on your system it will STILL WORK in a few years. If you want to upgrade, upgrades cost money. If you don't want in that cycle, then don't do it. There's tons of freeware out there that you can freely make music with and ignore the 'expensive' stuff. Good chance a lot of the software that's NOT NI won't be supported either a few years from now too. Focusing on NI specifically for their specific samplers, to me, is honestly making me laugh. What makes you think the others will be any better? What makes you think Spectrasonics will FOR SURE upgrade their engine? They've said they're ditching the old UVI engine for a new custom built one. I'm sure the upgrade will cost money. Stylus upgrade I know will cost money. So what makes that any different from NI? You work for NI and know their business plan that after today, they'll never do another upgrade? Smells an awful lot like 'let's pick on NI' Day around here. No, I'm not exactly tickled pink by some of their support either, but I really haven't had any problems either.

Any more paranoid statements, or holes I can shoot in your theories? Bring 'em on.

Devon

I use most of my sample libraries from 1990 to today. Specifically, I grew up on the Roland Sample Archives for my Roland S-770 sampler. I swapped that with an S-760, then I started using GigaSampler so I converted them from a Roland SyQuest to Gig files using the (not-so-excellent) Chicken Systems Translator. Then, Giga failed to serve my needs so I swapped to VSampler and sfz+ to play Gig files. I'm still able to play those sounds, and even play those songs I wrote 14 years ago! If a new sampler came along, there would most likely exist a solution to let me convert my old libraries to that new format.

With a C/R protected and encrypted library such as Kompakt, forget it! As such, the company behind products such as Kompakt had better score high marks in every regard before I consider using them.

-Brian

DevonB said: "If it works now, and you never change anything on your system it will STILL WORK in a few years." You fail to realize that everyone continuously have to change things on their computers, that´s why software need to be usable and stable for a long time.

It´s because of that I would like people to be aware of the things I´ve already said about the NI custom samplers.

And that´s why I´d rather have the samples on sampleCDs, or that the manufacturers release their samples on sampleCDs also, at the very least.

That way clowns who like to spend money on custom here-today-gone-tomorrow-samplers can do that, and the rest of us can spend the money on more reliable sampleCDs.

But, as I said, the more people think the same as you, the less do the software developers have to care for the long term usability and stability of their products.

I have to give up... Some people just want to complain and say never....lol my grandpa is more innovative than you guys are. I am sure eveyone realizes that when oit comes to computers and software you have to be patient and have to give it time.

If some of you guys still wanna stick with old samples thats fine. to be creative and innovative in these days you need the top sounds and they are available for so little money.

I agree I cannot read anymore "main complaints" It is so annoying to see how negative musicians can be. Well for myself I am happy and I use whatever I like, and if it has to include that there are some problems well I will deal with it. That has happened since my very first guitar I bought with a twisted neck. Someone tells me something about buggy products.

God, you're just SOOOOO certain it'll be gone tomorrow. Ok, whatever. Funny thing is, nothing will change. Just watch.

Devon

Quote:

Funny thing is, nothing will change. Just watch.

You're right - nothing will change. Unfortunately, in my case, that means Kompakt will never be updated to actually work with Sonar 3.1.1 (documented issue on Cakewalk's forums). Amazingly, a fix does exist for every Kompakt player except NI's.

But, since nothing will change, I was forced to shell out $30 to upgrade Kontakt play the content that I paid for in Kompakt.

But you do have a point. Since nothing will change, Kompakt will continue to not run on my system when I upgrade it. Thank goodness I didn't pay money for Kompakt...oh wait, I did!

-Brian

I agree with you. However, it is good that there are others like us having fun with all these new exciting things.

klagga wrote:

Even if NI or other sampler manufacturers go out of business, there will always be some who´ll provide real samplers for the widespread sample formats. Saying "this is just the way it is with computer software" is not serious and will only make things worse, when software developers because of that keep the assumption that nobody cares if their samplers work for just a year or two. Let´s just see what some people will say a few years from now, when all the expensive NI custom toys are dead and (by the manufacturers, at least) forgotten.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but as far as I know (like has been said before) software doesn't expire after a couple of years. If you upgrade your system past a certain point, many things will stop working - some DOS programs don't run on Windows 2000 or XP at this point. So, what are you going to do? Me, I stopped upgrading at Win2K - I have a DAW that's more stable than some hardware boxes at this point, and the lifespan of the PC hardware I have is enough that I'll likely have changed the style of music I make before the motherboard or some other critical component craps out on me.

Now, the product might become UNSUPPORTED, which is a very different thing than "not working". But that's common for hardware and software - try getting parts for a TG-33 from Yamaha and see how far you get. But that doesn't mean the thing got some kind of a signal from space that turned it off the moment it became unsupported.. lol!

Finally, it's best to buy something that works NOW and not expect fixes. If you know it doesn't work in host "X" and you get it anyway, or you don't research to discover it has issues, that's user error plain and simple. I like to ask around on the Tracktion forum if plugin N works, or if possible download a demo. If you get told it works and it doesn't, get your money back. The issue here is that someone ends up being the pioneer if nobody else has tried the product, and pioneers tend to end up in the dirt with arrows in their back.

thenumber23 wrote:

Quote: Funny thing is, nothing will change. Just watch. You're right - nothing will change. Unfortunately, in my case, that means Kompakt will never be updated to actually work with Sonar 3.1.1 (documented issue on Cakewalk's forums). Amazingly, a fix does exist for every Kompakt player except NI's. But, since nothing will change, I was forced to shell out $30 to upgrade Kontakt play the content that I paid for in Kompakt. But you do have a point. Since nothing will change, Kompakt will continue to not run on my system when I upgrade it. Thank goodness I didn't pay money for Kompakt...oh wait, I did! -Brian

Ummm I never said that. I'd be a bit bitter too. Fact is, there is now plenty of libraries now being tied to custom formats. It's happened since the beginning. You've been at this since 1990, so you know this to be true. We'll see if someone comes up with a program that'll allow export to another format. I have a lot of NI products (Reaktor, FM7, Battery, Kontakt Player for GPO, Absynth) and have been lucky to not have any problems with their products, pretty much ever.

Personally, I have more money wrapped up in sample libraries that most people. It a risk I took with Giga, and that's just the way it is. If I never upgrade my machines, I'll still be able to use them. To continue to use the newer libraries, I'll need to invest in Giga 3, which means investing in better machines. I don't have to either, as what I have works perfectly fine now. Just like a synth that I paid $3000 for, it could easily die on me tomorrow, and I'll NEVER be able to fix it. It's a risk. It's up to you to weigh the odds if the risk is worth it to you.

And just because I can import it to another format doesn't mean it'll sound right in the new format without a LOT of effort on my part either.

Devon

These new encrypted players sort of remind me of refills for Reason - you are unable to use them on another platform unless you resample them in a highly tedius process. Some sample developers for Reason have now decided to fix this problem by including the raw .wavs along with the refill you purchase. So if you ever need to migrate to another platform, its possible. THATS responsible marketing.

Just think, NI could have easily made the kompakt players just play raw .wavs instead of encrypted .nki files, but they didn't. It all boils down to a bizarre form of copy protection - which is on top of the already instrusive C/R method.

I would likely buy these only if the sounds were gobsmackingly amazing, like the Spectrasonics stuff. Like for Atmosphere, the quality of the sounds is WORTH the hassle of a closed-platform design. Is NI's stuff that good? I guess it is cheap...

floyd wrote:

I would likely buy these only if the sounds were gobsmackingly amazing, like the Spectrasonics stuff. Like for Atmosphere, the quality of the sounds is WORTH the hassle of a closed-platform design. Is NI's stuff that good? I guess it is cheap...

But NI has nothing to do behind the contents of the VSTi. UVI has nothing to do with Atmosphere either. The developers wanted a player, Native Instruments provided the goods. I'm sure you'd be cussing at another company if they didn't do it.

Devon

True, the contents are not NI's responsibility. My mistake.

To clarify: I think YES these rompler-type synths w/ built-in effects etc. are a great technology - cooler presets can be done and they are easy to use.

I think NO these rompler-type synths encrypting their samples is a big step backwards, and an unnecessary one. If they stored their samples as .wav, you could use their presets in the NI vsti, or 'roll your own'. Why NI is afraid of that, I'm not sure.

"But NI has nothing to do behind the contents of the VSTi." Exactly, that´s why one unfortunately can´t rely on that the NI custom sample players will stay supported for any longer period of time.

When you buy software today, you start a relationship with the software company. What this topic is all about is that because nobody can trust that this relationship is on even terms, it´s better for the consumers if the companies release samples on sampleCDs (or at least for both sample players AND sampleCDs).

That way the consumers would have a more secure investment in the long term. I refuse to believe that any serious musician could have anything to object to this.

klagga wrote:

"But NI has nothing to do behind the contents of the VSTi." Exactly, that´s why one unfortunately can´t rely on that the NI custom sample players will stay supported for any longer period of time. When you buy software today, you start a relationship with the software company. What this topic is all about is that because nobody can trust that this relationship is on even terms, it´s better for the consumers if the companies release samples on sampleCDs (or at least for both sample players AND sampleCDs). That way the consumers would have a more secure investment in the long term. I refuse to believe that any serious musician could have anything to object to this.

Like I trust any company is going to be there tomorrow anyway. It's called reality. It's called risk. Companies go under all the time. Sucks, but that's a fact of life.

Oh, little hint. Because someone doesn't agree with you makes them not a 'serious musician' makes ya look like you're grasping for straws with stupid insults.

Devon

Devon wrote: "Like I trust any company is going to be there tomorrow anyway."

What is it with you who disagree with my plea that the sample companies act more responsible, then??
Who´s side are you on, really?

What strikes me as misguided with the whole "what happens when it's not a supported format in X years?" argument is the fact that people are complaining that too many companies are releasing in this format. Since apparently the *.nki format is being so widely adopted by 3rd party developers, doesn't it stand to reason that in one form or another we'll be able to use these discs? There's a reason you can still use all your old AKAI samples and it has nothing to do with the quality of the format. It's because AKAI sample libraries were so ubiquitous in the days of hardware samplers that it makes sense for other to figure out how to incorporate this format with new technology. Why would *.nki format libraries be any different? Even if NI were to go away (highly unlikely though I suppose not impossible) it's not like their assets are going to be sitting on a storage device somewhere. And even were that to happen, certainly some other developer would step in and work with the format. We already know that can happen.

well the reason while most 3rd party company go for a solution like the nki encrypted file is that they want to copy protecxt their investments. In these days it is more than common to copy a disk for "a friend" and not value the work of others. That is the main reason why they don't offer any "open" sample libraries anymore. If Giga, Steinberg or others would offer the same protection for the content it would be a different thing. How would you guys think of giving away all the music you compose (after a receving a certain professional level). I assume that companies like EASTWEST, Zero-G and all the others have the same reason to go for solution like that. Plus they great idea to offer an engine with the content that gives easy and quick access toi the sounds. It is not the 3rd party companies fault that there is still a problem with the software part. I am sure all orf them try their best to work witrh Native to fix these problems. All of them are in the business for a very long time and are very well experienced with selling content. I assume they had a very good reason to go for this step. It looks to me that the guys here complaining are more against Native itself. I am sure the most have never checked out the great products from these 3rd party companies. If you would have to work as a composer and have the Bosendorfer or the Orchestra from EASTWEST you would appreciate this convenient tool as it is: ready to go. The new product I had bought from the ProSamples Platinum series they have released recently (Vapor, DFH@ and ADRENALINE from EASWEST) have the newest NI engine included that runs much better than their original one. I am sure that this is part of the cooperation and will be available for their own version soon. The MAC side works excellent already. I trust in these companies that they are able to fix things. I know that Steinberg, Emagic, MOTU and Cakewalk had tremendous problems as well with some of their products.
This just as my personal impression and feedback. I am as well in the lucky position not to need any support from them. I use XP and Nuendo and mys sytems allwasy worked fine. The trouble starts when people install several shareware products, that is my opinion

klagga wrote:

Devon wrote: "Like I trust any company is going to be there tomorrow anyway." What is it with you who disagree with my plea that the sample companies act more responsible, then?? Who´s side are you on, really?

Because some wish to protect their property, and most don't give a shit if they can tweak the samples or not anyway. If the majority of the marketplace did care, then we'll continue to see open formats. If not, then we won't. It's not about 'who's side' I'm on, it's about looking at the community as a whole. If this means more tools get into more hands for people to make music at an affordable price, I'm all for it. I'm sorry, but you're going to pay MORE for a sampler than what you pay for one of these libraries.

Much as I might hate copy protection and 'proprietary' BS, it's a fact of business. When you're trying to protect YOUR sizable investment of MANY hours spent and MANY dollars spent making a product from being stolen, I can see why some are going this way. If everyone was perfect little angels and didn't pirate and steal, we probably wouldn't be discussing this at all.

The sampling world has changed DRASTICALLY in the last 10-20 years. Affordable, self contained libraries are a good thing for a lot of people. But if this upsets you so much, vote with your wallet, and don't buy them. No one is twisting your arm to buy this stuff. What about other libraries that are not in the format your sampler supports? Well, you don't buy them either. There is SOOOO much material out there, you should be able to find what you're looking for in an open format. If those developers wish to take the risk, all the power to them. If others don't, all the power to them. I've been involved in large scale productions before, and know how much blood, sweat, and tears go into a product. Having it ripped off within minutes of release is heartwretching.

Also, with protected formats like this, there's more likelihood of MORE material coming out now, and that seems to be pretty evident with the recent flood of NI players hitting the market. Great for the musicians who want more tools.

My point of view on this whole thing? I see both sides of the fence. I see your point. I like open formats too. If I want to change a bad loop point, stretch out samples to correct problems, make my own mix, I can do that with open formats. I can also see the developers wanting to protect their investments, and also skip the headache of 'My disc won't import into product y too well'. There are many evils and good to the whole thing. I see the positives, you only site the negatives. That's fine. We simply won't agree. That's called life on the internet.

Devon

Puffer wrote:

What strikes me as misguided with the whole "what happens when it's not a supported format in X years?" argument is the fact that people are complaining that too many companies are releasing in this format. Since apparently the *.nki format is being so widely adopted by 3rd party developers, doesn't it stand to reason that in one form or another we'll be able to use these discs? There's a reason you can still use all your old AKAI samples and it has nothing to do with the quality of the format. It's because AKAI sample libraries were so ubiquitous in the days of hardware samplers that it makes sense for other to figure out how to incorporate this format with new technology. Why would *.nki format libraries be any different? Even if NI were to go away (highly unlikely though I suppose not impossible) it's not like their assets are going to be sitting on a storage device somewhere. And even were that to happen, certainly some other developer would step in and work with the format. We already know that can happen.

.nki is encrypted. NI isn't exactly giving away the encryption codes. Akai has no encryption. Totally different situations. You won't see cdxtract/translator support for .nki anytime soon...

I give up.

If you don't want it, don't buy it. Get it?

It removes some of the competition for the rest of us who want to make music and get on with our lives. If you want to have a symphony orchestra, just go hire one for $10,000 a day. In the mean while I will sit quietly at home and get much more done for $200. Even if I get to use it once only it is still a bargain. Just - I don't get to use it once only and can use it as many times I want.

But then, maybe that was not what you were trying to say. Maybe you just wanted to vent your air and was to embarrassed to fart in public.

Devon wrote: “If the majority of the marketplace did care, then we'll continue to see open formats.”

My post is just about that I don´t care for the proprietary stuff, and that I would like others who share my opinion to be aware of this.

“it's about looking at the community as a whole.”

That´s exactly what I´m doing, I´m just not letting the software companies do whatever they want without consumers reacting.

“Much as I might hate copy protection and 'proprietary' BS, it's a fact of business. When you're trying to protect YOUR sizable investment of MANY hours spent and MANY dollars spent making a product from being stolen, I can see why some are going this way. If everyone was perfect little angels and didn't pirate and steal, we probably wouldn't be discussing this at all.”

With my post, I send a signal that I personally don´t accept this sort of copy protection.

”Affordable, self contained libraries are a good thing for a lot of people. But if this upsets you so much, vote with your wallet, and don't buy them.”

That´s just what I´m declaring with my post.

“I've been involved in large scale productions before, and know how much blood, sweat, and tears go into a product. Having it ripped off within minutes of release is heartwretching.”

I respect that.

”Also, with protected formats like this, there's more likelihood of MORE material coming out now, and that seems to be pretty evident with the recent flood of NI players hitting the market. Great for the musicians who want more tools.”

No problem with that.

”My point of view on this whole thing? I see both sides of the fence.”

As do I, and I don´t like what I see. I´m worried that the consumers in the long run will suffer if they accept this development without thinking twice.

“We simply won't agree. That's called life on the internet.”

I have no problem with that.

Thanks for clarifying your point in this post, I found it well balanced. Peace.

My specific point was that predicating an argument on "it won't be supported in X number of years" is creating a straw man. Aside from the Who-knows factor, chances are the more of libraries that are released in this format the greater the chance they will be widely supported for the foreseeable future. And, more to the point, it's supported right now. There's nothing to suggest that if/when you buy one of these libraries you won't be able to bung it up and use it as advertised. Past problems with NI? Well, you're not dealing with NI, you're dealing with East-West etc. It's in there best interest to make sure the player is stable and accessible to all their *paying* customers.**

Mostly, I just agree with what Devon. It's not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, it just is. For some users it will be great, for others its annoying.

--

** I'm not implying anything by this; just aping other, more articulate, points made by others regarding copy-protection.

Puffer wrote: "For some users it will be great, for others its annoying."

Again, I want people to be aware of that, whatever the hype says, the NI custom sample players are a concealed form of copy protection.

I also find it, from a consumer standpoint, a short-sighted form of copy protection, because the sample player and its samples run the risk of being worthless in just a few years. That is very annoying.

A sample CD, on the other hand, will be usable even if the software company in question goes down.

Hi

I am pissed because I am not sure if I can use the new 'Zero G Koncept & Function' module!!!

But as people have already pointed out to me - what do you expect if your using a host (Logic 5.5 PC) that is no longer supported.

I think the real issue here though is that (IMO) the majority of people here are 'hobbyist's' not pro users who earn a living from making/producing music -the financial implications for whom are more significant.

If spending £500 on a project for specific software is of no major consequence because I price that into my fee then the longevity of the software is insignificant - where as for the hobbyist IT IS significant and warrants scrutiny.

That IMO is an angle that is so often missed here but should be borne in mind, and might help the contextual stance of the relevant parties that invariably have very different perspectives on what is acceptable for them.

Personally although I am known to gripe; if spending the £500 gets me a release then f... the longevity, but I do see that some purchasers might have a somewhat more skeptical view to letting loose their plastic.

Flipper.

klagga wrote:

Puffer wrote: "For some users it will be great, for others its annoying." Again, I want people to be aware of that, whatever the hype says, the NI custom sample players are a concealed form of copy protection. I also find it, from a consumer standpoint, a short-sighted form of copy protection, because the sample player and its samples run the risk of being worthless in just a few years. That is very annoying. A sample CD, on the other hand, will be usable even if the software company in question goes down.

Well, then simply point out the other UVI engines are doing the same thing. Seems a bit one sided to blast NI and not UVI's, since they are doing the same thing.

Devon

(I know part of this post is a bit off topic - but bear with me )

Is it just me, or is the sampling industry shunning Kontakt? About two years ago I made the painstaking process of choosing a VSTi sampler to upgrade from an ASR-88 into the VST realm. Halion, Gigasampler, and Kontakt were the big contenders. I chose Kontakt because it was the most versatile of all the samplers out there, and Garth at Chickensys recommended it above the others for it potential to provide the best conversion from the ASR format.

However, as time went on after purchasing it,I didn't see as many sample libraries available for the Kontakt format(nki), as I did Giga, Halion, and others. Sure Kontakt can import Halion, Giga, Akai, etc, but imports often suffer from conversion problems - I want the original sample, as mapped, layered, looped, and crossfaded damn it! So it strikes me curious when I see a sample library available in Halion, Giga, But not Kontakt???? Another interesting tidbit - Mach Five, Halion, and Vsampler, as well as others - import everything BUT Kontakt.

That's why I was very pleased when NI announced the EastWest and Zero-G alliance. Finally some sample developers were paying attention to Kontakt! It didn't bother me that they were to be custom packaged with Intakt of Kompakt, since these custom players were said to be compatible with Kontakt(I hope this turn out to be true) - who cares if you have to install them to use them - Hard drives are cheap and getting bigger all the time, and I store most my sample libraries on HD anyway.

So Klagga, quit your bitchin about NI, since as I see it, other sample libraries are just as proprietary and exclusive since they don't accomodate the Kontakt format.

original flipper wrote:

I think the real issue here though is that (IMO) the majority of people here are 'hobbyist's' not pro users who earn a living from making/producing music -the financial implications for whom are more significant.

Exactly! Let me twist your angle though. Spending $129 on Vapor for example gives me EVERYTHING right up front. I get the sounds and the player, and not the hassle of imports if my sampler (in my case, Giga) doesn't support it natively. If it was a sample disc in Giga, I'd have still needed to lay out cash to buy it. Or buy Kontakt. Or buy HALion. Any of those aren't cheap propositions. Any of their content that you can buy is not cheap either. So there is additional outlay right up front. For what? To get to edit the samples? Again, not many people do that. But if I want that priviledge, I've got to pay. To me, this seems fair. Charge me less, and lock it down, or charge me more and have it unlocked.

Devon

well it looks to me that you are pissed that Emagic is no longer supporting or continue to develop the Logic for PC. I agree that this is a pitty and the main issue. Companies like Native or others don't have a choice because they are not getting the support from Emagic to let it wokr smoothly. It is not fair from my point of view to throw the ball against NI while it is an Emagic issue.

I am just guessing not judging

stevie97 wrote:

well it looks to me that you are pissed that Emagic is no longer supporting or continue to develop the Logic for PC. I agree that this is a pitty and the main issue. Companies like Native or others don't have a choice because they are not getting the support from Emagic to let it wokr smoothly. It is not fair from my point of view to throw the ball against NI while it is an Emagic issue. I am just guessing not judging

...psssst.... hey.... dude.... don't start on that thread. It's like bringing up the Virus, aliasing, or TB303 on here. You'll regret it.

Devon

oki doki.........

Hi

That is a separate issue - supporting extinct host's!

I can live with that.

I am beginning to accept that EVERYTHING and life is just a fleeting moment.

If I want to use the software I may have to start using a second host and start weaning myself from Logic PC - it is worth it; in as much as I just want the tools that will get the job done.

That is the issue - what do you want to achieve and what are you prepared to do to get it.

I genuinely feel that this post has in some way expanded my appreciation of the quintessential reason for ...... hang on ...I am getting mixed up with the 'What would you do with £1,000' post ; which degenerated into a thesis on maria guana.

Flipper.

original flipper wrote:

Hi I am pissed because I am not sure if I can use the new 'Zero G Koncept & Function' module!!! But as people have already pointed out to me - what do you expect if your using a host (Logic 5.5 PC) that is no longer supported. I think the real issue here though is that (IMO) the majority of people here are 'hobbyist's' not pro users who earn a living from making/producing music -the financial implications for whom are more significant. If spending £500 on a project for specific software is of no major consequence because I price that into my fee then the longevity of the software is insignificant - where as for the hobbyist IT IS significant and warrants scrutiny. That IMO is an angle that is so often missed here but should be borne in mind, and might help the contextual stance of the relevant parties that invariably have very different perspectives on what is acceptable for them. Personally although I am known to gripe; if spending the £500 gets me a release then f... the longevity, but I do see that some purchasers might have a somewhat more skeptical view to letting loose their plastic. Flipper.

Eventually, you will get tired of using a host that is supported by fewer and fewer new releases, and find another one. It'll be expensive, and a big learning curve, but that's the way of the world. That part of the discussion is bleedin' obvious. The other part (about software ROMplers), is far more grey.

well, BFD is a sample player, and i have dealt with other drum sounds in other samplers, and none can be as integrated or as intuitive as this one!!!

klagga wrote:

Devon wrote: “If the majority of the marketplace did care, then we'll continue to see open formats.” My post is just about that I don´t care for the proprietary stuff, and that I would like others who share my opinion to be aware of this. “it's about looking at the community as a whole.” That´s exactly what I´m doing, I´m just not letting the software companies do whatever they want without consumers reacting. “Much as I might hate copy protection and 'proprietary' BS, it's a fact of business. When you're trying to protect YOUR sizable investment of MANY hours spent and MANY dollars spent making a product from being stolen, I can see why some are going this way. If everyone was perfect little angels and didn't pirate and steal, we probably wouldn't be discussing this at all.” With my post, I send a signal that I personally don´t accept this sort of copy protection. ”Affordable, self contained libraries are a good thing for a lot of people. But if this upsets you so much, vote with your wallet, and don't buy them.” That´s just what I´m declaring with my post. “I've been involved in large scale productions before, and know how much blood, sweat, and tears go into a product. Having it ripped off within minutes of release is heartwretching.” I respect that. ”Also, with protected formats like this, there's more likelihood of MORE material coming out now, and that seems to be pretty evident with the recent flood of NI players hitting the market. Great for the musicians who want more tools.” No problem with that. ”My point of view on this whole thing? I see both sides of the fence.” As do I, and I don´t like what I see. I´m worried that the consumers in the long run will suffer if they accept this development without thinking twice. “We simply won't agree. That's called life on the internet.” I have no problem with that. Thanks for clarifying your point in this post, I found it well balanced. Peace.

Klagga, FWIW, a lot of the big-name Hollywood folks, who use GigaStudio primarily, agree with your position. There has been a huge debate over on the Northern Sounds forum, where a lot of them hang out. The gist of it is... support whichever side you like with your dollars. If enough people support "open" sample libraries, then they will continue to exist. There are quite a few sample producers who still make a point of *not* using the ROMpler approach... if they continue to make money, don't you think they will continue to make products? There are good reasons for both kinds of products to exist, as has been pointed out in this thread. The "soft" ROMplers are currently a fad, but they'll probably always exist, because it is cheaper for developers to make them. We'll see if they actually provide any real piracy-protection.

Go here:

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB3

and search for threads started by Bruce A. Richardson since the start of the year. There have been several very long debates on this very issue. The topic has been worn out, but you might enjoy the points of view.

Here's a couple of sample thread links, but there are more than this...

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=8578 0&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1026 41&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

Devon -

Do you have Vapor yet? If so, does the library consist .nki files organised into directories or is it just a big encrypted data file like the Spectrasonics plugs? This is important to me because if I can load these libraries in Kontakt then this really is the best of both worlds - use the lightweight little player when I only want to repro sample content, load into Kontakt when I want to mangle...

Ta

The only beef I have with them is that I don't like the GUI!!

I cannot get along with Kontakt, I am waiting for MachFive.

- Devon wrote: “Well, then simply point out the other UVI engines are doing the same thing. Seems a bit one sided to blast NI and not UVI's, since they are doing the same thing.”

EarthTones wrote: “So Klagga, quit your bitchin about NI, since as I see it, other sample libraries are just as proprietary and exclusive since they don't accomodate the Kontakt format.”

One thing at a time. Just because there are others that may do the same, doesn´t matter. I´m talking about the NI custom samplers right now, and NI:s responsibility.

- Devon wrote: “But if I want that priviledge (to get sample CDs), I've got to pay. To me, this seems fair. Charge me less, and lock it down (in custom samplers), or charge me more and have it unlocked (in sample CDs).”

The problem is that, as far as I can see, if consumers don´t react, many of the best samples will in the future only be available locked down in custom samplers.

- Green Red Brownell wrote: “If enough people support "open" sample libraries, then they will continue to exist.”

That´s the point with my post, to show my support for open sample libraries, and make both manufacturers and consumers aware of the long-term consequences of the NI custom sample players.

- Sepheritoh wrote: “If you don't want it, don't buy it. Get it?”

If you don´t like what I write, don´t read this topic. Get it?

It's important we post our opinions and don't just silently "not buy" something that we don't like.

Perfect example of customer complaining leading to results: Izotope Ozone. Many BBS's erupted in dissent and controversy when Izotope slipstreamed PACE into their products, and Izotope responded that they would remove it, all within 2 weeks!

Ironically, considering the topic title, the more people who reply to this thread (either pro or against it), the more people who will read it. That's good - people will make their own decision about the products (either for or against it), but at least they will be informed about their decision.

-Brian

I'm for open-ended sample libraries!

F*ck this VSTi player situation...

Amberience wrote:

The only beef I have with them is that I don't like the GUI!! I cannot get along with Kontakt, I am waiting for MachFive.

Well, you're in luck, because the front page of KvR has the announcement of the PC version of Mach Five. Or did you already see that?

Personally, I'd wait until we hear reports about whether it really works, and whether the disk streaming is included.

Green Red Brownell wrote:

Personally, I'd wait until we hear reports about whether it really works, and whether the disk streaming is included.

Did the Mac version come with that at all? Last I heard was 'it's coming.... sometime... maybe...' for disk streaming.

Devon

DevonB wrote:

... What utter bullshit dude. If it works now, and you never change anything on your system it will STILL WORK in a few years.

What utter bullshit dude. Harddrives crash. Motherboards go dead. People have to reinstall operating systems and software. What happens when NI decides that it is no longer profitable to support C/R request for 1000 old sample collections? What happens when you want to edit a song 5 years from now and cannot load up a signature sound because you cannot get past the C/R? I don't have an old Akai sampler anymore, but I have my old CD's and I have 6 options, hardware and software, when I need to load those CD's. What will my option be on all these NI encoded instruments?

Thenumber23 wrote: “It's important we post our opinions and don't just silently "not buy" something that we don't like.”

AnotherBob wrote: ”People have to reinstall operating systems and software. What happens when NI decides that it is no longer profitable to support C/R request for 1000 old sample collections? What happens when you want to edit a song 5 years from now and cannot load up a signature sound because you cannot get past the C/R?”

Very good points!

Cheers

Klagga

I just read "ELEKTRIK PIANO Out Now".

There are still a lot of bugs in KONTAKT 1.5.2, NI can you fix them instead of bringing out new products !

These custom samplers look like cheap marketing, rather than making the Kontakt sampler stable.

Focus on QUALITY and not quantity, PLEASE!

Anders

some questions and answers

Q: what are these awful bugs in kontakt 1.52 that NI really must fix ? - and lets face it elektik piano is just kompakt with some included samples

A: the warez versions of these romplers are just the original with a supplied key generator - so if NI stop supporting c/r - you can always go to kazaa

andernils wrote:

I just read "ELEKTRIK PIANO Out Now". There are still a lot of bugs in KONTAKT 1.5.2, NI can you fix them instead of bringing out new products !

Did it ever occur to you that in a 60+ employees company the people creating sample maps and a GUI for the Elektrik Piano might be completely different people from the ones who program and fix bugs on Kontakt?

"what are these awful bugs in kontakt 1.52 that NI really must fix ?"

Well, visit the NI forum for Kontakt and you´ll soon find out what I´m talking about.

"Did it ever occur to you that in a 60+ employees company the people creating sample maps and a GUI for the Elektrik Piano might be completely different people from the ones who program and fix bugs on Kontakt?"

Did it ever occur to you that the head of the company/CEO should prioritize better so the product -including both programming, bugfixing, etc - as a whole is good. Nobody is complaining on the individual NI employee. It´s the head of the company that should reconsider what is important for Kontakt.

andernils wrote:

dr.wackler wrote: Did it ever occur to you that in a 60+ employees company the people creating sample maps and a GUI for the Elektrik Piano might be completely different people from the ones who program and fix bugs on Kontakt? Did it ever occur to you that the head of the company/CEO should prioritize better so the product -including both programming, bugfixing, etc - as a whole is good. Nobody is complaining on the individual NI employee. It´s the head of the company that should reconsider what is important for Kontakt.

I guess you didn't quite get my point: The point is that even if the management put absolute top priority over all products to Kontakt (which, beside Reaktor they do actually, 'cause those two are their top products and they have the GigaStudio market in mind as well), even then certain routines in Kontakt's code could only be re-programed, fixed or whatever by the people that are familiar with that code - and for sure these are not the people who created the Elektrik Piano sample maps.

ericj23 wrote: "the warez versions of these romplers are just the original with a supplied key generator - so if NI stop supporting c/r - you can always go to kazaa"

Great, we´ll all just have to rely on warez then. I feel safe already...

I try to tune in to your thinking of free upgrades (bugfixing excluded) but can't quite get it.

Let's say you bought the top model Ford escort in 1995 and in 1999 Ford comes with a revision housing several new features, Ford should upgrade your car to the 1999 model for free?

As far as the custom samplers going to be obsolete quickly, that's relative. If you (with the exception of security updates) don't change your os or get to the point you can't replace defective hardware anymore, the sampler will work. Why not stop yelling at the audio software companies and tell the OS and hardware industry to keep things backwards compatible?

andernils wrote:

"what are these awful bugs in kontakt 1.52 that NI really must fix ?" Well, visit the NI forum for Kontakt and you´ll soon find out what I´m talking about.

Don't you really mean your evangelising someone ELSE's problems & can't list you own?

"I heard this, & I head that.."



Give us facts, highlight specific bugs, upload samples of glitches. Don't get in here & harp about someone else complaining when you are not even remotely able to asses thier level of competence in even USING Kontakt properly..How do you know they're not just ignorant of proper use?

How do I know YOU are?

How do you know I am?

And if it's REALLY fucked up..why not just ask ew to fix it..he's modding on the Absynth official forum..maybe he can help out the Kontakt guys..according to you an NI guy is an NI guy..I mean what's the difference, it's all a hive mind, right?

HI

Another angle; If you have a bit of commercial success and make £/$20,000 over a couple of years from the use of the Romplers would you then consider that you had got a good return on your investment?

Too many people expect their (this) hobby to have the answers to all these questions - why not just focus on making music, pushing the envelope in the hope for a payoff.

If its just a hobby and nothing more just go buy a sampler that reads AKAI and VIOLA - you can keep and use your sample collection until you drop dead.

I don't give a crap if I can't use Koncept & Function NI/Zero G rompler (which I got a while back)in 2 years time because I make music today for tomorrow, in the hope of getting the tune released - I am always looking for the next 'tool' to enhance my potential, why worry about being locked down to the rompler - use it, abuse it, become one with it - then after it has earn't you a couple of grand throw the fucker away and move on.

What is not said enough here is that these tools, SX, LIVE, Logic, NI ECT are aimed at people that make (or are trying to make) a living out of music - aren't they? If they are not then who are they made for a hobbyist - WTF is that - do people actually spend thousands of pounds on this stuff to pass the time?

If someone offered me a program for £500 that would time out and eat my hard-drive in 6 months time but would help me go to another plane of compositional excellence - I would be there like Carl Lewis on steroids - and not look back.

Flipper.

I've got 'PSP Adrenaline' and 'Wired - Elements Of Trance'. They seem to work well and I like most of the sounds.

My criticisms are:

1. I can't find the DFD ext update for either of them.

2. Updates aren't exactly co-ordinated even though NI handle this side of things.

3. Never sure if or when we'll get the latest Kompakt/Intakt updates.

4. The sounds can't be installed in Kontakt - each VSTi has to be installed seperately.

I'd use them more if NI resolved issue number 4.

Beware of your own fears, that is all. There is nothing wrong with C/R when so many people don't pay for their tools. Blame it on your pal, the guy with the nice car that never buys software because he is too cool for that. Blame it on the P2P networks, and the parasites on them. Funny thing is that people think they are ripping off NI when they use pirated versions of these librarys, but no they aren't, they are ripping off the producers that made the lib, and it is being sold for them by NI and others. They have bills to pay, mouths to feed, and if you can't pay, don't play with it.

Pirates are the scum of the creative world, I'd wipe them all out in one swing if I could get them to stand in place.

Glau

glaucomys wrote:

Blame it on the P2P networks, and the parasites on them.

Uh..what's worse, the parasites or those that feed them?

The software has to get INTO their hands from SOMEONE..

Quote:

4. The sounds can't be installed in Kontakt - each VSTi has to be installed seperately.

all you have to do is install the standalone version of the soft and open it up - then all is good in kontakt 1.5 and your vst folder ain't cluttered

I wonder how it comes that a 5 months old thread gets reactivated!
Do you guys (i.e. SlimstA) just randomly pick out any old thread or how does it work?

I have NO respect for a company that releases "updates" that do nothing MORE than *ADD* 'challenge & response' registration to software I bought 2 or 3 years ago!!

NI can blow their brains out their ass. Fu*kin' weasels.

sickle666 wrote:

glaucomys wrote: Blame it on the P2P networks, and the parasites on them. Uh..what's worse, the parasites or those that feed them? The software has to get INTO their hands from SOMEONE..

Good point, but it takes only one copy to spawn across the p2p networks and end up in a bunch of shared folders and then the parasites spawn it unconcerned as they search out the next crumb of someones soul they can devour. There should be daily arrests of these fuck heads, but I'm not even gonna go over that edge.

This is a great discussion. It was really interesting to read it.

My opinion. I want opened sample libaries....with the option and possibility to use it in every sampler, I want. I like Kontakt very much with its great fx possibilities, but for only playing instruments, I use my Exs24, because it isn´t so cpu hungry, more stable and its easy to use.
And in live situations I must admit, that I trust my good old EMU Ultra Sampler more, than a notebook running a buggy Intakt/Kompakt Player.
I won´t buy any vsti Loop player, because I don´t like the gui of Intakt at all.Its so small.I use recycle to slice up loops and can export them in every important format to reuse the files in the exs24 for example.
I think the best way to provide the samples is an opened format(NO CONTAINER FILES)with the option to use the included sample player...
I understand the importance of specialized players.
Orchestra and string libaries profit from an included player environment. But It isn´t neccesary.
Look at garritan, sonic implants or vsl...

At last, it is a real pity to see every company is only releasing new vsti libaries.Elab, Zero G, Spectrasonics and so on...

SD

klagga wrote:

(The following has already been said in this forum, but I´ll say it again. ) Some sample producers (Best Service, East West and Zero G) don´t release some of their samples on normal sample CDs/DVDs anymore. Instead they make sample collections (Cult, Morphology, Vapor, Elektrik Piano, Galaxy Steinway 5.1, etc) with every collection locked into its own custom sample player, based on Native Instruments´ Kompakt/Intakt samplers. That is not good at all. Let me tell you why: - The NI custom players won´t play any other sounds than their own, hence their name custom players. - You can't play the samples in Kontakt unless you pay for the 1.5 Kontakt upgrade. - While you can import the samples into Kontakt, it´s not possible to do that without installing the custom player. - Since every new NI custom player is a program, it helps clutter the computer registry, eventually risking instability issues. - You´ll need a new authorization against copy protection for every new custom player. - You will have to learn a new interface for every new custom sampler. - Why pay for an extra NI custom player when nowadays most sensible people already has a software sampler (or can get it as freeware) and only need the sounds on a sampler CD? - If you buy a NI custom sampler today, it is likely to be dead in just a few years. There will be little interest for anyone to update an old custom sample collection when sequencer hosts/computer operating systems, etc, change. A sample CD, on the other hand, will be usable because the sample formats stay the same. (The AKAI format has been around many, many years.) And, like AnotherBob has pointed out, what happens when NI decides that it is no longer profitable to support challenge/response request for old sample collections? What happens when you want to edit a song a few years from now and cannot load up a signature sound because you cannot get past the C/R? - If the custom players, if not likely, actually get updates, you will have to pay for every one of them. Whatever the hype says, the NI custom sample players are a concealed form of copy protection. And, from a consumer standpoint, it´s a short-sighted form of copy protection, because the sample player and its samples run the risk of being worthless in just a few years. A sample CD, on the other hand, will be usable even if the software company in question goes down. So, Best Service, EastWest and Zero G, please release your sounds on sample CDs/DVDs!! Sincerely Klagga

in other words...blah blah blah blah

ATS wrote:

klagga wrote: (The following has already been said in this forum, but I´ll say it again. ) Some sample producers (Best Service, East West and Zero G) don´t release some of their samples on normal sample CDs/DVDs anymore. Instead they make sample collections (Cult, Morphology, Vapor, Elektrik Piano, Galaxy Steinway 5.1, etc) with every collection locked into its own custom sample player, based on Native Instruments´ Kompakt/Intakt samplers. That is not good at all. Let me tell you why: - The NI custom players won´t play any other sounds than their own, hence their name custom players. - You can't play the samples in Kontakt unless you pay for the 1.5 Kontakt upgrade. - While you can import the samples into Kontakt, it´s not possible to do that without installing the custom player. - Since every new NI custom player is a program, it helps clutter the computer registry, eventually risking instability issues. - You´ll need a new authorization against copy protection for every new custom player. - You will have to learn a new interface for every new custom sampler. - Why pay for an extra NI custom player when nowadays most sensible people already has a software sampler (or can get it as freeware) and only need the sounds on a sampler CD? - If you buy a NI custom sampler today, it is likely to be dead in just a few years. There will be little interest for anyone to update an old custom sample collection when sequencer hosts/computer operating systems, etc, change. A sample CD, on the other hand, will be usable because the sample formats stay the same. (The AKAI format has been around many, many years.) And, like AnotherBob has pointed out, what happens when NI decides that it is no longer profitable to support challenge/response request for old sample collections? What happens when you want to edit a song a few years from now and cannot load up a signature sound because you cannot get past the C/R? - If the custom players, if not likely, actually get updates, you will have to pay for every one of them. Whatever the hype says, the NI custom sample players are a concealed form of copy protection. And, from a consumer standpoint, it´s a short-sighted form of copy protection, because the sample player and its samples run the risk of being worthless in just a few years. A sample CD, on the other hand, will be usable even if the software company in question goes down. So, Best Service, EastWest and Zero G, please release your sounds on sample CDs/DVDs!! Sincerely Klagga in other words...blah blah blah blah

Well, ATS, thanks for your input.