Recently I played about with some basic synth modules [osc,filter etc...] as individual VST/i inserts in Orion Platt.
By using the F/X send and insert I can build some basic modular synths with apparently unlimited (cpu wise) numbers of modules.

Is there any interest/market for simple modular synth construction in you own host program!

Should I build more modules and release them.
Any comments please.

Regards
Etric

EVM Synths
http://www.sinte-virtual.com/evmsynths

etric,
if you look at some of the threads in the tracktion forum, which with its rack filters is an ideal host for building the modular systems you describe, you'll see such 'building' block vsti's already being developed.
so the answer to your question 'is there any interest' from me is a big yes please !!!
as for how big a market? dunno

Can you expalin this a bit more for the hard of understanding please

yes!!!

>>Can you expalin this a bit more for the hard of understanding please<<

Essentially, I to build synthersizer modules.
Oscillators,filters,Envelope followers,F/X,Amps,Noise Sources,Wav/sf players
etc... you know, all the component modules that go into the making of one big 'honkin' modular synth and release them as individual vst inserts with a common GUI.

In you own host (orion,fruity,traction,cbase,'whatever you got') you can interconnect them any way you like according to how you host manages F/X send and insert.
CPU wise, you only use what you load-up.

In a nutshell. Build you own modular synth!
You are each limited by you own host you use.

Regards
Etric

evmsynths wrote:

>>Can you expalin this a bit more for the hard of understanding please<< Essentially, I to build synthersizer modules. Oscillators,filters,Envelope followers,F/X,Amps,Noise Sources,Wav/sf players etc... you know, all the component modules that go into the making of one big 'honkin' modular synth and release them as individual vst inserts with a common GUI. In you own host (orion,fruity,traction,cbase,'whatever you got') you can interconnect them any way you like according to how you host manages F/X send and insert. CPU wise, you only use what you load-up. In a nutshell. Build you own modular synth! You are each limited by you own host you use. Regards Etric

I think thats a fantastic idea! It means that people can use the skill they already have with their chosen host, instead of having to go and get a degree to use something like reaktor or synthedit. Ok, an exageration, but you get the point!

Go for it fella, we're all behind you (lurking in the bushes )

evmsynths wrote:

In you own host you can interconnect them any way you like according to how you host manages F/X send and insert.

Orion Platinum here. Have you tried chaining them in the Multi FX holder, or the Band Split?

>>Orion Platinum here. Have you tried chaining them in the Multi FX holder, or the Band Split?<<

No.!
But the real advantage is that as each host interlinks it inserts in a different manner we will all have different methods to create synth structure using a tool we already know.
I will go play with the FX holder you mention and I also look at traction users (thanks hengy}. I can see this is not an origional concept. Seldom are these days !

EVM

Sounds like a pretty cool concept actually. You could really get some very complex things happenning without too much CPUsage. [I may have to copyright that terminology.]

With Tracktion it is even easily possible to share the created synths with others

also biggup the awesome Energy XT as host skinned with a complimentary look of EVM modular synth.

sounds really interesting to me.

would like to try it.

Hate to burst BONES' bubble, but the overhead of moving audio plugin-to-plugin within a VST host is probably a bit higher than would occur within a single application.

Not that thats a reason not to do it mind; just that it will be a bit more 'CPU expensive' to do it.

It'd presumably also have to be monophonic.

Plus I am guessing that this would only be a valid approach with hand-coded plugs, as SE ones carry a lot of excess baggage for such a project in their dlls.. Interesting concept though, but i feel that it might be better as a half-way house approach ..ie. A choice of 3 or 4 types of oscillator banks a choice of filter banks some with LFO's some without.. etc etc.. In your experiments have you been able to route the control signals as well as the audio ones?

This sounds to me like an ideal project for a team approach, but with everyone having the use of the same set of graphic widgets etc.. (nothing like robbing somebodies else idea, is there?!!?? ) Still its got me thinking which is always a dangerous thing!!

It's worth it for the "what if" factor alone.

The idea of a fairly simple modular approach to sound within a host is great - if you go a standard that all hosts can benefit from.

I just tried something similar in FL Studio and Sonar the other day. The oscillator part wasn't possible but by using sine or other fundemental waveforms and adding plugins like modules it worked well.

You may want to consider some combo type modules as whiterabbit has a point about CPU use, particularly in effects which many have started accepting as a way of working anyway. No harm in doing individual ones for those that don't want to get any more complex than necessary.

Perhaps the best thing would be to make your own VST shell that allowed components to be simply selected and moved about in the audio chain. Keep it simple as you were discussing, but build a framework so the CPU use would be moderated.

That is if you have the time or desire?

whyterabbyt wrote:

It'd presumably also have to be monophonic.

not sure why, sub modules could add stereo image, or mix different mono oscillator feeds into stereo, all possible in tracktion at least, and i guess you could use sidechains in other hosts

After initial testing I have running...
Multilple instances of the 'same' polyphonic oscillator and two different filter types all as simple insert effects.
5% Cpu orion platt XP 1700+

I can see the only limitations as being you own host.

Imagine quickly constructing a monosynth with 'say' 8 Osc running in ultra fat unison or a polysynth with four or more sample players using different sounds.
(I did 4 note unison mono easy)

Do not get me wrong here. I am not talking Moog Modular, just the ability to interconnect modules from a selection of many (say 10-50) in a way outside of the preset synth architecture.

I will work out the details and post as open source.

Ian.
Control signals between units are handled by Dave Haupts excellent midi munger but I think I can see a way of working without this also.

Regards
Etric

evmsynths wrote:

Ian. Control signals between units are handled by Dave Haupts excellent midi munger

ah... good thinking batman

The thing is, you can be talking about the most exciting synth there is as:
1. even novices can learn to build
2. some effects are so special that if they are in the signal chain they make mediocre sounds interesting, any Ohm Force, Camel Audio or 'fill in the blank' plugin can do some fantastic sound manipulation.

In fact, there are synths starting to be built around traditional subtractive (and other forms of synthesis) that use effects that are as simple or heavily complex as the actual patch.

Check out Ohm Force's Symptohm Melohman for reference. For that matter look at FL Studio's individual plugins within their mixer. It's very effective to see which effects are chained together after the oscillator, amplifier, filter. Truth be told, I've done a lot of experimentation with bland samples and changing them into soundscapes with automated effects, from freeware upward.

I'd really urge you to consider making some macro type modules instead of staying completely modular. Give newbies a chance to learn with the idea of signal flow.

In any case, it's a great idea and I wish you the best of luck. I hope you'll keep us informed of your project.

Damn, whenever you think you've got a great idea someone else has already come up with it!

BTW Modulr has some interesting stuff in the tracktion forum called called 'building blocks', these fit in nicely with this idea. In fact if you read through the post related to these things, Modulr actually has a very similar concept to the modular system. Also he 'hand codes' in Delphi, so I think he should be told about this! He may well be able to come up with some CPU saving bits and pieces!

One last thought, can't we just petition jeff to make Synthedit a VSTi/VST effect? Now that would be something special!

there are programs that are modular and realtime, unfortunately I can't remember them off the top of my head.

VAZ Mod 3 can pull that trick off and it's the easiest modular imo. Problem is it's not cheap and it is getting more and more powerful so it's not likely to come down in price anytime soon. otoh, it's also a 16 channel fully modular synth and mixer that's a VST host, client and rewire program.

whyterabbyt wrote:

Hate to burst BONES' bubble, but the overhead of moving audio plugin-to-plugin within a VST host is probably a bit higher than would occur within a single application.

Hey fuckface, read the original post.

I think this is a great idea for all the things mentioned: teaching tool, modular tool, community tool. Way better for things than the NEXT BIG SYNTH imho. Incredible creative potential.

Ok.

Uploaded dev mode Oscillator and filter.
Please test in you hosts and let me know if it works!
In orion I install both as instrument but other host may be different.
Known bug is oscillator gain multiplexing in poly mode due to host channel routing but I can fix this later.
Orionsetup.jpg shows 2 osc + 2 filters running in parallel.


Regards
Etric

http://www.sinte-virtual.com/evmsynths
--> goto seps page

great idea!
Modules seem to be working ok in Logic 5.5.1. I tried oscillator as instrument and filter as insert and then moved filter to a bus and both worked fine.

BONES wrote:

Hey fuckface, read the original post.

mike skinner wrote:

Woa Leave it out Are you smoking something ? Leave it out Mike just leave it We cannot have that behavior in this establishment Its not worth it mike Leave it out Just leave it Dont touch me Dont touch me im alright

slainte rob

BONES wrote:

Hey fuckface

Bones, we allready have seen photographs of you and of Mr. Rabbit thus we know WHO actually the 'fuckface' is!

BONES wrote:

whyterabbyt wrote: Hate to burst BONES' bubble, but the overhead of moving audio plugin-to-plugin within a VST host is probably a bit higher than would occur within a single application. Hey fuckface, read the original post.

I've said this before, and i'll say it again - fat people are supposed to be jolly!!

Get with the program

maybe make the oscillators multi-out with the ability to select which outputs are enabled?

jens wrote:

BONES wrote: Hey fuckface Bones, we allready have seen photographs of you and of Mr. Rabbit thus we know WHO actually the 'fuckface' is!

Seen your pic too twatlips...

ladies, ladies, calm down eh? Have a bit of decorum. sounds like a cake that does.

evmsynths wrote:

Ok. Uploaded dev mode Oscillator and filter. Please test in you hosts and let me know if it works! In orion I install both as instrument but other host may be different. Known bug is oscillator gain multiplexing in poly mode due to host channel routing but I can fix this later. Orionsetup.jpg shows 2 osc + 2 filters running in parallel. Regards Etric http://www.sinte-virtual.com/evmsynths --> goto seps page

Hi etric,

tried the osc and filter in EnergyXT,

work fine, but when used in polymode and I hit more then one note I get a heavy distortion, should it be so? ( I´m not very familiar with modular systems, beside Reaktor, where I use mostly .ens from others)
I tried with 3 osc and 4 filter ( 2 filter lined serial).
It would also be nice to have a more precise pitch adjustment.

Keep up the good work, it is really superb.

Hengy wrote:

whyterabbyt wrote: It'd presumably also have to be monophonic. not sure why, sub modules could add stereo image, or mix different mono oscillator feeds into stereo, all possible in tracktion at least, and i guess you could use sidechains in other hosts

wtf.
I think whyterabbyt is talking about number of voices = polyphony, or in fact the lack of it, rather than number of channels.

Kriminal wrote:

jens wrote: BONES wrote: Hey fuckface Bones, we allready have seen photographs of you and of Mr. Rabbit thus we know WHO actually the 'fuckface' is! Seen your pic too twatlips...

did they convert you to being gay?

Quote:

wtf. I think whyterabbyt is talking about number of voices = polyphony, or in fact the lack of it, rather than number of channels.

true, brain fuckup on my part, must think before posting

and yes rabbyts right about the polyphony

Some dude made some individual modules with synthedit a while back

http://mysite.freeserve.com/synthedit/mogue/moguemodular.htm

Oscillators, filters, sequencers etc. basically everything youd find in a modular synth, perfect for use in eXT and Tracktion. Unfortunately the GUIs are really big

Awww, did ickle wickle BONESY get out the wrong side of his beddy-boos? Awww.

Anyways, back to the actual subject, and for the attention of the actual grownups here...

Somebody mentioned MIDI-MUNGER as an option for getting around what I said about it having to be monophonic. Not sure that thats an option, unless you've got a host that can handle plugins with multiple inputs, multiple outputs and some kind of 'control data' stream. You've also got potential issue there with passing stuff as part a feedback path, and with any parallelism, all dependent on the architecture of your host...

Now, it seems like it might be quite easy if we could just get everyone to buy energyXT and use that inside their host

The homebrew alternative, though, could maybe be to simplify it to something like Spark FXmachine, ie an NxN grid of 'slots', with each slot able to host one unit or VST/i, with audio data automatically passing left-to-right. The ideal situation might actually be if someone was able to write a module for SynthEdit that could load and host a VST/i!

I guess each module/unit also needs to be able to handle MIDI processing within itself, or else you need some kind of centralised 'controller' dishing out control values to the other units, which would up the data transit required between units.

Good! It seems to work on other varied hosts and systems.
This stuff is just a very rough test. Obviously I will fix the poly distortion (gain multiplexing) and other problems but now I know it works I can do a proper job with many more modules.
I will set up a new page soon and add source codes to each module so other developers can jump onboard.

I think these things should be free because they do not threaten the market for complete synth products.
All good fun eh!

Oh yes, and please stop swearing at each other. I am a great advocate of peaceful coexistence, good will to all and doctor can I have another injection now please...

Regards
EVM

>>Somebody mentioned MIDI-MUNGER as an option for getting around what I said about it having to be monophonic<<

-Me. Not poly but data routing. different issue and solved!

>>The ideal situation might actually be if someone was able to write a module for SynthEdit that could load and host a VST/i! <<

-SE already do this!

>>I guess each module/unit also needs to be able to handle MIDI processing within itself<<

-No. Only generators and things for Midi data stream. The rest is just audio processing.

>>Some dude made some individual modules with synthedit a while back
http://mysite.freeserve.com/synthedit/mogue/moguemodular.htm<<

-Yes. I am doing basically the same but a little more hi-tech.

EVM

evmsynth quoth Me. Not poly but data routing. different issue and solved!

So how does it deal with it then?

-SE already do this!

SE isnt itself a VST/i though. And .dll's you host in SE-built plugins are statically bound. I was talking about being able to load a VST/i 'dynamically'.

>>I guess each module/unit also needs to be able to handle MIDI processing within itself<<

No. Only generators and things for Midi data stream. The rest is just audio processing.

Hmmm, how do VCA's know when to trigger, or VCF's know what centre frequency to track then? And it does kind of restrict your flexibility if you cant, say, assign the modwheel to delay feedback...

evmsynths wrote:

Good! It seems to work on other varied hosts and systems. This stuff is just a very rough test. Obviously I will fix the poly distortion (gain multiplexing) and other problems but now I know it works I can do a proper job with many more modules. I will set up a new page soon and add source codes to each module so other developers can jump onboard. I think these things should be free because they do not threaten the market for complete synth products. All good fun eh! Regards EVM

This will really be a great adventure, I imagine some nice possibilities with the modules.