I've been thinking about investing in one real hardware synth to complement my VSTi and these both sound like attractive options. I'm looking for something versatile with a really rich analog sound that's not too expensive.

Any opinions or experience with either of these? The mp3 samples I've heard online are impressive but I can't really tell from the samples how they'll really sound in person.

Andromeda=expensive...

I use my old CS-10 (200$) and it´s phatter than momma
If you find any...old analouges are usually worth it.

kuniklo wrote:

I've been thinking about investing in one real hardware synth to complement my VSTi and these both sound like attractive options. I'm looking for something versatile with a really rich analog sound that's not too expensive. Any opinions or experience with either of these? The mp3 samples I've heard online are impressive but I can't really tell from the samples how they'll really sound in person.

I don't have any personal knowledge of the Ion at all, but this a link to Electronic Musician's review of the Ion:

http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_alesision/index.htm

If you do a site search, you will find one for the Andromeda, too. They thought it was very overpriced. You would save a lot of money with the Ion.

Larry

if you got the cash for an A6 maybe you should also look into a sunsyn, omega 8, virus c, nord 3 or a G2.


if you go over to sonic state.com pretty much every one except one dood bashes the the A6 they say it has slow envolopes er something....

And I also know a lot of brilliant keyboard players who absolutely swear by it, and having played one, I admit that if I could afford it, I would have it (that would be the Andy).

My 1 and a half cent :

i own a Nord Rack 3, Ms2000r and a ION... and i must say i LOVE the sound of the ION, it has the best and punchier bass of the 3....

warbug wrote:

if you got the cash for an A6 maybe you should also look into a sunsyn, omega 8, virus c, nord 3 or a G2. if you go over to sonic state.com pretty much every one except one dood bashes the the A6 they say it has slow envolopes er something....

I think I'm willing to spend up to about $2000. The Sunsyn and Omega 8 look killer but they're both about twice that usually, aren't they?

I wasn't overly impressed with ION at the shop. I think if you choose your vst's wisely, you will acheive pretty much what it does for much less. i think the A6 is in a different class all together but considering the money you are willing to spend I would lean toward an Access synth myself. Don't get me wrong, the A6 is a monster but the Access stuff has the best filters in the industry IMHO and it sounds as fat as anything out there.

Ive always said that when it comes to synths in this price range, you will get quality gear regardless...but it's the sound of the synth that should make your decision...listen to them all, play them and then decide....

dano

But for gods sake don´t tell the shop assistant that you have 2000$ burníng a whole in your pocket...he will undress you with his eyes

eh...I mean the wallet! he will undress your wallet!

kuniklo wrote:

warbug wrote: if you got the cash for an A6 maybe you should also look into a sunsyn, omega 8, virus c, nord 3 or a G2. if you go over to sonic state.com pretty much every one except one dood bashes the the A6 they say it has slow envolopes er something.... I think I'm willing to spend up to about $2000. The Sunsyn and Omega 8 look killer but they're both about twice that usually, aren't they?

yea they are about 2500-3000 used. there is something else that may be of interest. macbeth mx2(i think) its a new analog rack thinger. some guys makes in his basement. they run about 1500. OR maybe even an elektron monomachine it has like 6 different synthesis styles.

[quote="danielmm"
Ive always said that when it comes to synths in this price range, you will get quality gear regardless...but it's the sound of the synth that should make your decision...listen to them all, play them and then decide....

dano[/quote]

Wise words!!!

nord G2 is what i'd get

if i had the money (which I don't so there's a sticking point already..) and was going to buy a true analogue synth probably the A6 or Moog Voyager. the downside of the Moog is it's monophonic. The plus side is it's so damn cool (esp if you go for a blue-dial version), sounds phat as you like and erm, is a moog.

V/A... Virus C or NL3 -if you're feeling creative, go for the new Nord Modular kbd instead - but if you're going to go for VA, you may as well get a powercore, Virus plug-in, z3ta+, Reaktor3 and save yourself $1k in the process...


benw

I adore my andromeda. i'll never sell this baby. What a sound...

love the programming too ... twiddle a knob and the associated page come up on the LCD automatically.

Am about to buy an extra card for it to start saving the lovely patches i made with it..

it gets used in conjuction with my fave combo of absynth and atmosphere..

what a trio..

... can't give you a link to the stuff i've been using it on because i'm not ready to spill the beans on my new CD yet

Also own a MS2000R and the andromeda has the definate edge on sound.

well ... if you have some vst ... and you need THE analog sound then go with Moog Voyager.
A6 is beautifull but still far from the incredible fat&aggressive Moog sounds. I played both... and this is my opinion. I hope you avoid any virtual hw out there because they sounds only a "bit better" than vst... so invest your $$ on real hardware more then in "metallic dressed software"

A moog a day keeps the doctor away...

Don't buy a used Ion. Many of the early releases are the victim of a bad batch of pots.

Robert

Voyager? No thanks. Considering it comes with a 'get one tuneup free' card for the first year TELLS me there's issues. I'd rather go with a www.synthesizers.com modular. A single oscillator on that thing blows EVERYTHING I've heard out of the water for richness.

Devon

DevonB,

Have you compared the Dot Com modular to a Doepfer? Just curious, I wish I could go have a listen to both of these monsters. I've yet to try either one.

Getting back on topic: The Omegas are still an option in your price range. You don't have to go for the mighty Omega 8, you can definitely afford an Omega 2. I picked one up on ebay in perfect condition for $1400. I daresay it sounds even richer than my beloved Creamware synths.

Joxer the Mighty wrote:

DevonB, Have you compared the Dot Com modular to a Doepfer? Just curious, I wish I could go have a listen to both of these monsters. I've yet to try either one.

I've only had my mitts on the Dot Com modular, so I can't commment on the Doepfer. The Dot Com certainly has 'something' there that's missing on everything else I've heard. Is it worth getting your panties in a bunch like the Virus crew does? Nope. But I promise you it does sound better than a Virus.

Devon

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I'm going to try to demo an Andromeda and an Omega 2 and see what happens.

It turns out that one of my co-workers has an Andromeda so I'll probably try that first.

Thanks Devon, I've been thinking of getting a modular and have narrowed it down to either a dot com or a Doepfer.

Kuniklo: Check out www.studioelectronics.com, they've got some nice mp3 demos of their synths. Be sure to check out the ATC-X and SE-1X too. Keep one very important thing in mind, they are monosynths, and the Omega 2 only has 2 notes of polyphony. The Andromeda definitely has the edge when it comes to polyphony.

Also keep in mind, even the best analog still sound a bit boring without effects too. The Dot Com still was beefy with NO effects, but add a bit of reverb or a delay, and it came alive. I can only imagine adding multi effects to it!

Devon

i've tried the ion and the andromeda several times in the stores. while this is not exactly an ideal testing condition, i got a pretty good idea of how they sound in comparison to each other and to the majority of the va market.

compared to most other va's the ion sounds far more realistic to me. as many have said, the ion is the va for people that hate va's. it sounds far more like a good analog than like a good va. (imho, the latter has developed into its own sound catagory over the years.)

when i was thinking about buying an ion back in december and january, the synths were plagued by quality control problems. the ones in the shops were exhibiting the same problems as those regularly posted to the ion email list. this scared me off...so i bought a DSI evelover and imposcar instead.

these problems may have been sorted out by now though. i havent kept up with it so i dont know. i remember hearing that at as of the winter namm, alesis had discovered the source of the troubles and were taking care of it. but before buying one, it would probably be best to do some research into whether or not its actually all been taken care of or not.

now the andromeda...that, to me, made every va in the room sound clearly digital and fake, including the ion. i was so shocked at the difference (having never tried a high end analog before) that i had to experiance this on several occasions and check to make sure the shops mixers were not setup in such a way as to screw up the comparison.

the A6 has so much body, depth, richness, and depth to its sound. and it can be so smooth too.

when i first tried the A6 i thought "yeah, thats a really nice sound." but it really was not until i reached over and started playing va's, that i had always liked the sound of, that the degree of difference really hit me. it seems strange, but i think the reason the quality of the A6's tone didnt hit me quite so strongly at first because it just sounded like it should. it sounded right. so it was not until i reached over to the next keyboards and started playing synths that were "trying" to sound analog that the difference became clear.

if i had the money, there is no question...i would buy an andromeda.

-ugo

hang on a mo - somebody here mentioned getting a card to store patches on the Andromeda So....does the Andromeda not support patch dumps or some kind of midi transfer?

My god, I thought storage cards were a thing of the past. I really would have thought a several thousand dollar synth could transfer patches or banks.

kritikon wrote:

hang on a mo - somebody here mentioned getting a card to store patches on the Andromeda So....does the Andromeda not support patch dumps or some kind of midi transfer? My god, I thought storage cards were a thing of the past. I really would have thought a several thousand dollar synth could transfer patches or banks.

Well, perhaps if someone wants to use it AFK (away from computer) this would be useful?

Doug

kritikon wrote:

hang on a mo - somebody here mentioned getting a card to store patches on the Andromeda So....does the Andromeda not support patch dumps or some kind of midi transfer? My god, I thought storage cards were a thing of the past. I really would have thought a several thousand dollar synth could transfer patches or banks.

it does support the patch dumps.. to the "User" set 128 patches there..

the other 2 banks are set in stone... you can just tweak..

the card.. is a smart media type thing... you can store you own stuff on there as well.. an extra to what you already have...

i like that idea better than transferring the patch dump..

just my way of working

ugo wrote:

.... when i first tried the A6 i thought "yeah, thats a really nice sound." but it really was not until i reached over and started playing va's, that i had always liked the sound of, that the degree of difference really hit me. it seems strange, but i think the reason the quality of the A6's tone didnt hit me quite so strongly at first because it just sounded like it should. it sounded right. so it was not until i reached over to the next keyboards and started playing synths that were "trying" to sound analog that the difference became clear. .... -ugo

A very astute and dead on statement. If you spend time with a Prophet 5, MemoryMoog, Rhodes Chroma, Roland Jupiter8, Alesis A6 or any other good polyphonic analog you really begin to develop an ear for analog. Even with the MiniMoog and the virtual counterpart it is easy to tell the difference in a good lead. Bending a note while adding a bit of modulation makes a nice sound on the virtual Mini, but the true Mini sings. (Not sure if anyone understands what I am trying to say with that statement.)

Robert

fitch wrote:

it does support the patch dumps.. to the "User" set 128 patches there..

Would the A6 make a good controller as well? Do all the controls transmit MIDI? I'm thinking about picking up a one of those new Keystation 88s but if the A6 works well as a controller I might just get it for double duty.

If I had the money I'd quite like a Nord modular 2 or a VSynth - don't hear much about the VSynth here but it looks interesting to me.

Rabid wrote:

A very astute and dead on statement. If you spend time with a Prophet 5, MemoryMoog, Rhodes Chroma, Roland Jupiter8, Alesis A6 or any other good polyphonic analog you really begin to develop an ear for analog. Even with the MiniMoog and the virtual counterpart it is easy to tell the difference in a good lead. Bending a note while adding a bit of modulation makes a nice sound on the virtual Mini, but the true Mini sings. (Not sure if anyone understands what I am trying to say with that statement.) Robert

To put it bluntly, VA's still can't touch what a real analog can do. Does it stop you from writing music? No. Does it sound different? Yes. Does it matter? That's up to you.

Devon

DevonB wrote:

Voyager? No thanks. Considering it comes with a 'get one tuneup free' card for the first year TELLS me there's issues. I'd rather go with a www.synthesizers.com modular. A single oscillator on that thing blows EVERYTHING I've heard out of the water for richness.

I don't think it necessarily has issues; tuning drift is just the nature of the beast. Maintenance tunings have always been a part of owning a Moog. Sure they could use more stable oscillator technology, but then it wouldn't sound like a Moog I'm guessing. I for one am glad they haven't sacrificed tone for convenience.

20 years ago I thought that tuning a MiniMoog was a headache, but not as bad as trying to keep it in tune while performing on stage. Then I bought a MemoryMoog and found the joys of trying to tune 6 times the oscillators. Made even worse with having to zone in on note, scale and range (or what ever the three points of tuning was called). With the MiniMoog you used a screwdriver to turn recessed pots from the back of the panel. In the MemoryMoog you had to open up the case and use a very small screwdriver to adjust little bitty plastic pots on the circuit board. It was a horrible weekly process that convinced me to sell my MemoryMoog and get a DX7.

I really wish I had that MemoryMoog back. At least the Chroma had an auto-tune feature.

Robert

Whatever you do, make sure your choice doesn't come down to whether it's a VA or analogue. For me, I can't afford to spend a big chunk of money on a monophonic synth. For my music, all my gear needs to play more than leads, basslines and quirky chirping R2D2 sounds....and I'm not bashing the Moog fans out there because those are awesome machines...it just doesn't suit me.

It sounds like your best bet is the A6....they are not 5 grand anymore and you are getting a great analogue synth......anyone who dumps 2000-3000 bucks on an analogue, because it's an analogue is an idiot without having thought it through. There's nothing "wrong" with the sound of VA's, there's nothing wrong with blowing into a bottle to make music. It's the sound you are looking for that makes the difference....not what produces it. theres a big difference....don't get sucked into buying something that everyone thinks is cool but is of no use to you!

dano

If anyone's got the moolah to buy an Andromeda, then they may as well splash out the little extra it costs to get a distinctive VA as well and have the best of both worlds.

kritikon wrote:

If anyone's got the moolah to buy an Andromeda, then they may as well splash out the little extra it costs to get a distinctive VA as well and have the best of both worlds.

I think I'm going to try and find a place to demo some of this stuff hands on. I'm pretty happy with the sound of my better VSTs and a hardware synth would have to sound significantly better to justify the extra expense and hassle. There is something appealing about a real physical instrument too though.

That really is the best thing to do: try the stuff out yourself. And there's definitely something about having a real physical instrument as opposed to software. Moving knobs and sliders is not much fun (to me anyway) when you're doing it on a computer monitor.

DevonB wrote:

Voyager? No thanks. Considering it comes with a 'get one tuneup free' card for the first year TELLS me there's issues.

I've had one for a year already and it's not had any tuning problems whatsoever.

I actually bought it, ironically, because I liked creamware's minimax so much. When I first got it, the two (on pretty extensive testing) sounded fairly similar so I put my purchase down to nostalgia - I've wanted a minimoog for over 15 years and it felt amazing to have its successor in my clutches (I wondered if this was the ageing synthesist's equivalent of the sports car purchase ).

However, each day's fiddling with it brings me new riches and I am amazed by how different it sounds some days from others: the texture of the oscillators is so rich and beautiful (I really wish more synths offered waveshaping rather than fixed shape oscillators) that even simple sounds out of it never get boring.

What is more, it is definitely improving as it ages: when I first got it there was a certain tightness to its sound but this has been replaced with growl and cream aplenty I'm certainly no longer in any danger of confusing it with the minimax. It's quite simply the best sounding synthesizer I have ever heard.

p.s. I haven't heard dotcom (and I don't even want to lest it induce fatal G.A.S.), but doepfer has an fantastic range of modules at pretty affordable prices...

i'm sick of hearing about what the fuckwits at sonic state think about Andromedas. "Too Slow Envelopes"- what bullshit.

Try out the Andromeda for yourself.

I don't know of any normal people that could say a bad word about it after spending time with it

kuniklo wrote:

fitch wrote: it does support the patch dumps.. to the "User" set 128 patches there.. Would the A6 make a good controller as well? Do all the controls transmit MIDI? I'm thinking about picking up a one of those new Keystation 88s but if the A6 works well as a controller I might just get it for double duty.

I really like the keyboard on my A6...really nice velocity and aftertouch 'feel'. The ribbon controller is fantastic (great for screwing around with sounds). All the knobs transmit NRPN messages (14bit) so if your softsynth can cope with that then it makes a great tweaking controller. In theory you can convert the NRPN's to CC's with something like midiox...though my softsynths have been somewhat neglected since getting the Andy (3 months for me).

The A6 is the kind of synth you buy and keep forever, and learn everything it can do (which is a lot!)...each patch has 1400 parameters! And you are getting something unique that can never be replicated in a softsynth (unlike all the 'hardware' VA's out there).

cheers.

suthnear wrote:

DevonB wrote: Voyager? No thanks. Considering it comes with a 'get one tuneup free' card for the first year TELLS me there's issues. I've had one for a year already and it's not had any tuning problems whatsoever.

Good, nice to hear from a 'longtime' owner of one. I'll update my memory bank in my brain to reflect this reference. It does seem the dot com's stay in tune better though, even shipping across the country! Trying to remember what Scot said how little off the osc were when he got it. Like only 1 of the 6, and barely?

Devon

DevonB wrote:

Good, nice to hear from a 'longtime' owner of one. I'll update my memory bank in my brain to reflect this reference. It does seem the dot com's stay in tune better though, even shipping across the country! Trying to remember what Scot said how little off the osc were when he got it. Like only 1 of the 6, and barely? Devon

Indeed, my main Dotcom system was carted over 1000 miles and only one of the six oscillators was out of tune, and even then it was only a bit sharp. No more detuned than the amount I might use to "fatten" up the sound. It really is a remarkable machine. I know of at least two died-in-the-wool Moog Modular owners who have sold off all of their Moog stuff and replaced it with the Dotcoms. I think they are nuts, but it does sound amazing. I have ousted almost all of my vintage stuff after getting it simply because the sound of those "classics" just doesn't compare. It took four of my Jupiter's oscillators in unison to even approach the richness of sound exhibited by a single Dotcom oscillator. And the Dotcom price is really very reasonable...a three oscillator system will not cost more than a Voyager. And when you have it, you will be amazed at the love and craftsmanship that goes into it. Hand built equipment is like home-made soup. Once you have tried it, you need a pretty good reason to go back to the mass-produce stuff in a can.

Scot,

How does the dot com sound compare to other modulars? I'm really torn between Doepfer and dot com. Ever compare the two?

I remember reading everything on their site a couple years ago. At that time I got the feeling that the factory made other things for profit, and made the modular synths for the enjoyment of makig modular synths.

Robert

Roger Arrick also runs a robotics company.

Joxer the Mighty wrote:

Scot, How does the dot com sound compare to other modulars? I'm really torn between Doepfer and dot com. Ever compare the two?

I have compared the Dotcom with most available modulars, and the Dotcom was heads and tails above most modern modulars. The Doepfer is a special case. For the most part, the Dotocm's sound just blew away the Doepfer's...It was bigger, richer and just had more presence...but the fact is that there are a lot of modules available for the Doepfer line, so naturally, it is way, way more flexible...The Dotcom is very much a "Moog-lovers-synth", and there aren't too many exotic modules available for it. The Doepfer line has lots and lots of wonderfully weird modules available...so you can probably get weirder, faster, and with fewer modules on the Doepfer. I am not saying that you can't probably make the same sounds with the Dotocm, but it will take more modules and more patching.

On the other hand...you get what you pay for, and you don't pay much for the Doepfer. It is fairly flimsy in comparison to the big fellas and that was one of the things that put me off the Doepfer initially. Not to mention that the power supply powers far too few modules, and you will be buying new power supplies if you intend to extend a Doepfer system too far. Still, they do sound good, and that modules list is certainly tempting. The "okay" build quality is tempered somewhat here in the US buy the distributor, who will gladly replace some of the more "questionable" bits with higher quality stuff. For a price of course.

Now, I aint knocking the Doepfer stuff, and I almost certainly will add some to my own studio in the near future (there are modules in the Dotcom for coneecting to those teeny little 1/8" jacks). The variety of Doepfer stuff available makes it very tempting (as does the price point).

You really can't go wrong with any modern modular...and I have nothing but praise for the Dotcom stuff. Worth every penny.

I took advantage of Guitar Center's 30 day no questions asked refund policy to take home an Alesis Ion and put it through its paces. While I have to say it does sound great and I'm really liking the directness of a real physical synth I don't think it really sounds significantly better than my better VSTs. If anything, I think I prefer the sound of CS-80V to the Ion.

So, I think I'm going to take it back and start scouting around ebay for an Andromeda. Anybody got one they want to sell?

Joxer the Mighty wrote:

Roger Arrick also runs a robotics company.

Yeah, and I am one of many people who thought "Arrick Robotics" was a WAAAAY cooler name than "Synthesizers.com". Many folks I know insist on referring to their systems as "Arrick Modulars".

They are a great company...very small group of people, and as I said, everything is hand built. This is part of the difference in quality. Kind of like how a Manley pre sounds better than a Presonus, you know? Arrick loves this synth, and it shows.

kuniklo wrote:

So, I think I'm going to take it back and start scouting around ebay for an Andromeda. Anybody got one they want to sell?

Did you ever find one (Andro) locally to tinker with? and if not dont you think it would be a wise thing to find one to tinker with before making a committment?

VitaminD wrote:

kuniklo wrote: So, I think I'm going to take it back and start scouting around ebay for an Andromeda. Anybody got one they want to sell? Did you ever find one (Andro) locally to tinker with? and if not dont you think it would be a wise thing to find one to tinker with before making a committment?

I haven't been able to find a local shop that stocks them at all, unfortunately. This is a little surprising for the S.F. bay area given that it's such a haven for electronic music and analogue anoraks, but no luck so far.

Thanks Scot, your post helps. You brought up the other thing that concerns me about Doepfer: build quality. Hmmm...dotcom is sounding more and more like the way for me to go.

Thanks again!

Joxer the Mighty wrote:

Thanks Scot, your post helps. You brought up the other thing that concerns me about Doepfer: build quality. Hmmm...dotcom is sounding more and more like the way for me to go. Thanks again!

Since I've had my hands on one, I certainly have to say myself the build quality is there. Feels good, the knobs feel great, the jacks feel solid, and it looks like someone actually cares about the build quality.

Devon

Joxer the Mighty wrote:

Thanks Scot, your post helps. You brought up the other thing that concerns me about Doepfer: build quality. Hmmm...dotcom is sounding more and more like the way for me to go. Thanks again!

You won't regret it, if you do... Me, I am in love with the sequencers. I bought two of them and they can be locked toether or even chained end-to-end for forty-eight steps. In addition, it is a breeze to trigger them via a MIDI note sent through the keyboard's built in MIDI-to-CV...though you might want to get the actual MIDI module...it is more elaborate. I need to grab a few of those m'self...

Don't forget the two big advantages an A6 has over a modular, polyphony and patch memory.

Robert

What type of pitch bend and modulation control does the Synthesizers.com keyboard have? It is hard to tell from the picture. It almost looks like levers.

Robert

Quote:

Don't forget the two big advantages an A6 has over a modular, polyphony and patch memory.

Fortunately I've got all my bases covered when it comes to synths and polyphony. If I get a modular it's for no other reason than to have fun.

Quote:

You won't regret it, if you do...

Oh, I have a pretty good feeling you're right, lol. How do you like the dotcom keyboard? Is there any advantage to using it instead of another keyboard controller?

Joxer the Mighty wrote:

Quote: You won't regret it, if you do... Oh, I have a pretty good feeling you're right, lol. How do you like the dotcom keyboard? Is there any advantage to using it instead of another keyboard controller?

No, I got it purely for aesthetic reasons. it is your basic, run-of-the-mill analogue synth keyboard...not aftertouch, mod wheel, pitch bend, nuthin'. It aint horrible for what it is, but it isn't much. If you don't feel inclined to "complete the look", it can easily be skipped in favor of one of the MIDI-to-CV converters. Then you will have more money left for modules.

One note: If you buy a system, make sure to add the Ladder style filter. Though it is simply a Moog-style LPF, it sounds wonderful! The State Variable filter is more versatile (offering LPF, HPF, bandpass and notch filtering), but the State Variable filter's LPF isn't as sweet as the Ladder filter. Or get both (that's what I did). Oh, also, there is no dedicated LFO (the oscillator can be switched down to LFO speeds), so take that into account when ordering oscillators.

Joxer the Mighty wrote:

Thanks Scot, your post helps. You brought up the other thing that concerns me about Doepfer: build quality.

I have had a doepfer for over three years and have had no problems in this regard whatsoever. I use my modular a lot and have experienced neither crackly pots nor dodgy patch points (the main crit usually). All my knobs still travel properly and smoothly.

Plus, it has a very active user list where Dieter Doepfer regularly solicits module ideas, input, etc, from users. And that range of modules. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm. As a brief taster, look at:

http://www.doepfer.de/a1013.htm
http://www.doepfer.de/a107.htm
http://www.doepfer.de/A1491.htm
http://www.doepfer.de/A137.htm

But there are loads more. And I think that doepfer recently upgraded their basic PSU as well...

But Scott has got me well tempted about dotcom.

p.s. I think that the continuing success of VSTis has actually been a significant part of the resurgence of analogue modulars. There are a number of reasons for this:
- quality: all but the most cloth eared can hear the superior tone produced by discrete components for certain types of sound.
- relevance: before modular synths really were rolls royce items. You had to have a lot of money (and a lot of other equipment) before you could buy a modular synth. Very few people wanted to go the walter carlos route of recording a single note of a chord at a time. Now VSTis supply a lot of the bread and butter at a massively reduced cost. This means that you can pass a disproportionate amount of your budget to speciality items. Modern audio software also means that they are easy to record as well.
- performance: with every softsynth being automatable to the nth degree, modular synths reintroduce significant levels of performance back into the process. I often have to record several takes of a sound before I find the right combination(s) to comp into a track.

I love modular synths

Yep, some of those Doepfer modules look very, very enticing. And it's good to hear that you haven't had a problem with build quality.

Agh! Decisions, decisions...

You need to understand that with modulars, you can mix and match too. Buy some .COM stuff now (yes they're very nice) and a rack of Doepfers as you expand (and you WILL! trust me The only catch is you need some sort of cable adapters to go from the .COM 1/4" cables to the Doepfer 1/8" ones. I bought a whole bunch of very cheap surplus 1/4" to 1/8" cables (can't remember where but a little net research will find them for you). Modulars can be an expensive hobby - but worth it.

... and also I had tons of Doepfer over the years and only ended up with two bad jacks and no other problems to speak of. The jacks are more delicate but careful patching is the key I think (don't grab a handfull of cables and yank them all out at once

krhen wrote:

You need to understand that with modulars, you can mix and match too. Buy some .COM stuff now (yes they're very nice) and a rack of Doepfers as you expand (and you WILL! trust me The only catch is you need some sort of cable adapters to go from the .COM 1/4" cables to the Doepfer 1/8" ones. I bought a whole bunch of very cheap surplus 1/4" to 1/8" cables (can't remember where but a little net research will find them for you). Modulars can be an expensive hobby - but worth it.

Yeah, this is the best approach...a little of everything. And you actually only need to get a Dtcom Connecter Interface module to make the connections between the two. Actually, they even sell a dedicated 8 x 8 Minijack module...

Personally I opted for the cable solution because each patch is a point that introduces noise, impedance and/or capacitance changes and possible connection problems. With soldered cables its one connection from point A to point B. Not to mention that the module takes up precious rack space in your modular that could be used for much cooler functioned modules

krhen wrote:

Personally I opted for the cable solution because each ... module takes up precious rack space in your modular that could be used for much cooler functioned modules

Couldn't agree with you more. I made up a whole bunch of 1/4" to 1/8" cables to connect the doepfer to the voyager.

Joxer the Mighty wrote:

Agh! Decisions, decisions...

If you're having a hard time, don't go here or here. And most certainly don't go here or, worse still, here. Unless you have a looooot of money that you don't want any more

Are the components from these different manufacturers generally compatible with each other? Can you mix & match modules?

Quote:

f you're having a hard time, don't go here or here. And most certainly don't go here or, worse still, here. Unless you have a looooot of money that you don't want any more

Unfortunately stuff like Modcan is out of my price range.

suthnear wrote:

Joxer the Mighty wrote: Agh! Decisions, decisions... If you're having a hard time, don't go here or here. And most certainly don't go here or, worse still, here. Unless you have a looooot of money that you don't want any more

You bastards! Modular gear lust is the last thing I need.

... but I think I have it now.

Jacks and Power Supplies are the biggest concern, but if you go with a separate rack from each manufacturer for each the power supplies are not an issue. Going from 1/4" to 1/8" isn't a problem but Banana jacks (Serge, Modcan, Synthia) are a bit of a different beast because they don't have both a signal and ground connection for each lead - but its nothing that can't be overcome (.COM has a 1/4" to Banana connector converter). Banana jacks have the added benefit of being self-multiples, meaning you can stack them to form multiple connections, rather than using a Multiple module, which is basically just a one-to-many jack set. IMO if you can find some of the out-of-print Wiard 300 series blue Celtic modules they are worth their modular weight in gold!

(don't even mention Buchla or Technosaurus now

of course there's also Analogue Systems and Analogue Solutions, oh! and Blacet makes fantastic stuff too![/url]

How much manual tuning would a .com system require? What tools are required to do this?

Sorry if this is a FAQ. I looked around on their website for a while for an answer.

A couple more links sites for the modular fans...

http://www.modularsynth.com/

and for the hardcore...

http://www.synth.clara.net/resources.html

http://home.debitel.net/user/jhaible/hj.html
Jürgen Haible's site. This bloke knows his shit.

Even though my preference is for softsynths I love that this stuff is going on. There must be more people making modules now than ever.

Quote:

You bastards! Modular gear lust is the last thing I need.

I know the feeling. All I can say is thank god I'm single. I don't see how in the world I could have justified a modular back when I was married. I don't think, "But don't you hear how 'up front' the sound is compared to a VA???" would have cut it.

Joxer the Mighty wrote:

Quote: You bastards! Modular gear lust is the last thing I need. I know the feeling. All I can say is thank god I'm single. I don't see how in the world I could have justified a modular back when I was married. I don't think, "But don't you hear how 'up front' the sound is compared to a VA???" would have cut it.

Well, this is my predicament exactly. I've got about three or four justifications in the running. A beautiful modular certainly has a lot more style than another noisy beige box at least.

Quote:

How much manual tuning would a .com system require? What tools are required to do this?

all of it Thats the tradeoff with analog gear (that doesn't autotune) - Usually if you have a digital tone source and your ears you can tune it up before each use, but each oscillator typically does need tuned itself each time you fire it up and again once you get things warmed up from use (temp drift).

Then there's occasional calibration which involves yanking the module and fine-tuning its circuit characteristics, usually with trimpots on the circuitboard. Usually you do this if something starts to get out of whack but its a nice yearly project - keeps your filters tracking properly etc. Recommend an oscilloscope for this process.

Modulars are wonderful in some ways but royal pains in others. Personally I sold off the huge modular because when money became tight and either the digital or analog stuff had to go, I decided I preferred not having to deal with issues like constant tuning etc. Note some modules hold their tune better than others.

Three or four justifications?

BTW, are you the same kuniklo over at Planet Z?


I didn't realize tuning was such an issue. My Omega, which is the only analog synth I own, never goes out of tune. And it has an auto-tune feature if it does. Are the modulars more prone to drift due to the amount of heat involved?

Different modules move differently. The Synthtech VCOs are EXTREMELY stable with nice temperature compensation - of course they're also MUCH more expensive (per feature) than most other VCOs and the stability has its plusses AND minuses. For example, they won't 'beat' with that wonderful analog two-VCO drifty smearing that makes analog soooo meaty. However, they can be used in an FM mode whereas most drifty analog oscs have trouble being used as FM carriers and modulators because even a little drift changes the sound dramatically. I wouldn't buy Synthtechs for other reasons though (personal problems with the proprietor, don't ask)

As far as use, every time you change songs/sounds you need to retune simply because modulars don't have a concept of 440Hz They are freely oscillating and again this is a power and a drawback, so whenever you make a cool patch, then write it all down carefully on paper, make another, and want to go back to the first - lots of work and fiddling because what you write down NEVER ends up looking like what you really have (for example, that knob might be at 11:00 but in reality even a little variation can change the sound lots Hope that made sense. Again, the nature of analog. This is where a rack full of G2's would have a benefit over a .COM or the like IMO

Yes BTW the SE Omega (8?) does autotune

Hello,

I've been looking for an analog and was going to get a M3X but after reading this thread I may have changed my mind. The dot com stuff looks amazing.

How would the QSR8 be for a starter modular?
Is anyone using this setup?

The QSR8 looks like it's designed to process external signals more than anything. There is only one oscillator, so right off the bat you don't have an LFO available. Plus I don't see a midi interface in the components list. I suppose you could add one though.

I got the same impression. I could add another osc and the midi module. Might be decent?

I would imagine with another oscillators and the midi module you'd have a nice little system, but let's hear what the modular experts have to say. You'd probably want to add two oscillators because the dotcom osc's double as lfo's.

krhen wrote:

They are freely oscillating and again this is a power and a drawback, so whenever you make a cool patch, then write it all down carefully on paper, make another, and want to go back to the first - lots of work and fiddling because what you write down NEVER ends up looking like what you really have (for example, that knob might be at 11:00 but in reality even a little variation can change the sound lots

Digital cameras are your friend.

Devon

Quote:

Digital cameras are your friend.

LOL yeah that is so. But still its hard given human finger fine control to get things EXACTLY as they were before...

Joxer the Mighty wrote:

I don't see how in the world I could have justified a modular back when I was married.

Funnily enough modular synths are a lot more like VSTis than you might think. Huh? Well, you see once you have power and enclosure (and a lot of people build their own to trim costs here) you can buy a single module whenever you have some cash. I can generally afford to buy a reasonably priced module every few months or so...

Joxer the Mighty wrote:

I didn't realize tuning was such an issue.

For me anyway, tuning's not such a big deal. I just scale against a digital keyboard whenever I can hear it going out of tune. Which is not often, I must say. But then again, unless you have a lot of cash you're not going to be using the modular for huge chordy bits where tuning does become an issue. The occasional slightly flat or sharp note on a lead gives it a bit of character

krhen wrote:

so whenever you make a cool patch, then write it all down carefully on paper, make another, and want to go back to the first - lots of work and fiddling because what you write down NEVER ends up looking like what you really have

Too true, but I never even bother to try anymore. It is the very ephemerality about modulars that I love so much. I make a sound and I record it. If I want to recreate it later I approach it as a fresh synthesis project. Invariably I get to a different sound but I always find I've learned something new in the process.

If convenience, stability and repeatability are your watchwords, you should get a nord G2. If OTOH, you prefer power, freedom, chaos and tone, get an analogue modular. And if you're rich, get both

p.s. And I'm sorry I left Blacet out of my list earlier. Wonderful stuff.

microtonal wrote:

I got the same impression. I could add another osc and the midi module. Might be decent?

While this definitely looks like a cool little setup, it's difficult to say how useful it would be for you. This depends very much on what other gear you have and what you want to use the modular for. I got into modulars because I was tired of looking for old analogue monosynths. I got my first rack of modular as a kind of super monosynth and my module choices were all made with this in mind. Of course, it has developed from there - my modular now serves all sorts of purposes from synth duties to signal processing.

So, it very much depends on what you want to so with it...

Hi,

The A6 is not easy to program. Many parameters and options (which is cool, but not for everybody).

Example:
you have to watch things like the volumes of the oscillators. The max (without overdriving the filters) is a total of 75 in volume (all oscillators together).
So if you "without thinking" turn the oscillator volume knobs, the sound is maybe different that you expect. Simply because you overdrive the filters...

Analog synths can not be compaired to DSP based synths like the ION.
Two different worlds with both their strong points and weak points.


Cheers,
Rob

The A6 may not be easy to program 'from scratch', but there are some great sound banks around (like your's Rob, thanks!).

The key is that with 144 buttons and 72 knobs the sounds are very, very tweakable in a very direct way. And the ribbon is fantastically tactile tweaking 'thing' too!

cheers.

Thanx and yes the Ribbon = very

and the flexibility of the Andromeda comes VERY near modularity ... and remains polyphonic and has patch memory and can autotune...

not trying to talk you out of the Modular. they're wonderful but...

not to mention that for a decent sized modular you could get two used Andromedas nowdays (of course my definition of 'decent sized' may be different than yours http://www.stucki.com/krhen/downloads/frankensynth

I weighed up getting either an Access Virus or an Ion a few weeks back and settled on the Virus. The Ion has a really nice sound at the basic oscillator level (especially for the price!), but it really can't match the virus in terms of sonic variety and detail (IMHO)

Quote:

you have to watch things like the volumes of the oscillators. The max (without overdriving the filters) is a total of 75 in volume (all oscillators together).

of course this is equally true of modulars. I think this could be classified as the nuances of any particular (especially analog) instrument. They need 'learned' and once you get it, you've got it

of course on a modular, you have only your ears to go by (no numbers to refer to on an LCD)
[/quote]

hrhen,

Yes indeed.

My frustration with any analog modular system is that you can't store a cool sound...
But they sound great and look awesome

What the world needs, for modulars, soft-synth controllers etc, is cheap motorised pots.
Wonder where beyringer are getting theirs?

motorized pots with a bussing system to address and control them? hmmmm interesting...

Hoever I think it'd be cheaper to develop a one-armed robot that would set all the pots, switches and cables for you

heres a second hand one for sale on ebay...

didn't someone want one

BTW.. it isn't mine..

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=308&item=3727 219296&rd=1

fitch wrote:

heres a second hand one for sale on ebay... didn't someone want one BTW.. it isn't mine.. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=308&item=3727 219296&rd=1

Saw that one. There generally seems to be at least one up for sale on EBay all the time. I was aced out on two this week.

There's also a place in Los Angeles that sells refurbs with a year warranty for $1800, which seems pretty fair.

A guy on the .com mailing list has very graciously offered to let me drop by his place this weekend and check out his giant modular system. Unless I have a religious experience with it I'll probably go for the A6 for now.

Hey kuniklo, be sure to let us know what you thought of the modular.

Joxer the Mighty wrote:

Hey kuniklo, be sure to let us know what you thought of the modular.

Just got back from playing with it for about two hours. I'm really glad I got a chance to check it out in person because it really clarified a lot of my thinking about this.

First, just as a physical instrument a modular that big is stunning. It's like a an artifact from some never realized utopian 60's science fiction future utopia. With all the pulsing lights and the crazy chaotic tangle of cables it just screams magic. If I ever become filthy rich there's no question I'll have a giant modular centrally displayed in my house.

Second, the basic sound is gorgeous. Just a simple saw wave has a force and richness I've never been able to coax out of a digital synth. Throw three detuned saws with a modulating ladder filter together and you've got a sound you feel as much as hear.

Third, tuning is much less of a problem with modern modulars. Modern modular oscillators are now temperature stablized and stay in tune for a week or more without any tweaking. Tuning them back in is also trivial.

Fourth, patching a modular is a lot of work and involves a lot of head scratching and cable tracing. Even the expert owner of the thing, a professional electronic engineer, was left puzzling over the routing for a few minutes several times during the afternoon. Basic modulations you can accomplish with a couple of mouse clicks with a good VST require a lot more thought and effort in a modular. Slightly more complex modulations like delays in lfo modulation levels can be a *lot* more work than they are in software. Also, losing the ability to automate anything was much more limiting than I would have imagined. I've come to really depend on automation to add movement to my sequenced music and losing it altogether is a real hindrance.

So, overall it was a fascinating afternoon and I feel very lucky to have had a chance to tinker with such a monstrous and magnificent instrument. However, it's also pretty clear to me that, as much as I loved the sound, the effort a modular requires and the limitations it imposes are more than I'm willing to put up with for now. I think it's very likely that I'd spend all my time tinkering with the synth without ever producing any actual music.

So, I'm going to track down and demo an Andromeda. Now that I've had a chance to hear analog in close to ideal conditions I know it's something I'd like to add to my music and $1800 or so is a pretty small price to pay for a system that combines that sound with all of the benefits of modern synthesis.

Hey kuniklo, thanks for the report. I missed it back when you posted it, I'm glad I went back and found it.

Good luck with your Andromeda quest!

Just in case you were wondering how the story turns out:

My Andromeda arrived in the mail yesterday. I don't think I'm ever going to leave the house again. The sound is phenomenal and the flexibility is staggering. I'm pretty sure I could do anything I wanted with this and Reaktor.

All those blinking lights make me happy too.

kuniklo wrote:

Just in case you were wondering how the story turns out: My Andromeda arrived in the mail yesterday. I don't think I'm ever going to leave the house again. The sound is phenomenal and the flexibility is staggering. I'm pretty sure I could do anything I wanted with this and Reaktor. All those blinking lights make me happy too.

Awesome, glad you like it. Be kinda a bummer if ya didn't for the price.

Devon

Congrats kuniklo! Sounds like you're having lots of fun.

DevonB wrote:

kuniklo wrote: Just in case you were wondering how the story turns out: My Andromeda arrived in the mail yesterday. I don't think I'm ever going to leave the house again. The sound is phenomenal and the flexibility is staggering. I'm pretty sure I could do anything I wanted with this and Reaktor. All those blinking lights make me happy too. Awesome, glad you like it. Be kinda a bummer if ya didn't for the price. Devon

I bought a mint-condition b-stock unit for a substantial discount off the list price, but it still wasn't cheap. If I get as much use out of it as a I think I will it will be worth it.

oooh mr. kuniklo

enjoy your beautiful new synth

fitch wrote:

oooh mr. kuniklo enjoy your beautiful new synth

Loving it to pieces so far. A lot of the presets are pretty good, too, especially some of the extras on the alesis website. Once I figured out a lot of them didn't really open up without the ribbon controller I was very happy.

kuniklo wrote:

fitch wrote: oooh mr. kuniklo enjoy your beautiful new synth Loving it to pieces so far. A lot of the presets are pretty good, too, especially some of the extras on the alesis website. Once I figured out a lot of them didn't really open up without the ribbon controller I was very happy.

Rob Papen did some free Andromeda presets - http://www.robpapen.com/andromeda.html

Doug

dougsyo wrote:

kuniklo wrote: fitch wrote: oooh mr. kuniklo enjoy your beautiful new synth Loving it to pieces so far. A lot of the presets are pretty good, too, especially some of the extras on the alesis website. Once I figured out a lot of them didn't really open up without the ribbon controller I was very happy. Rob Papen did some free Andromeda presets - http://www.robpapen.com/andromeda.html Doug

I was playing these last night, actually. Some really great stuff in there. Thanks Rob!