I have some concerns regarding copy protection and I wonder what you people think.

Scenario 1
Softare A company sells a lot, has hard times and goes out of business. Copy protection, simple serial number. No harm imo, learn to save multiple on and off computer lists of your software's s/n.

Scenario 2
Company B uses challenge/response. Company B sells out to new company who honor old licensing. OK again, I still have access to my software should I need a new license - or do I? Let's consider I may be three upgrades behind but see no reason to update. I loose my install because I get a new compuer, whatever, new company has a 3 version limit. I'm fucked. Based on Vegas 2 Video and Sony unwilling to tell me if I have a valid license. Not terribly concerned as I can update to last known version, but we are playing what if right now.

Scenario 3
Company C also uses challenge/response and dumps a bunch of other files in the registry, any one of which can only be activated with a registry file. Lose it and the company goes out of business. You just lost use of your program.

I used these scenarios because this isn't a singular issue. Like any situation there are a series of areas where things can go wrong, or break down and quite honestly, it's upsetting to me.

I left out CD/DVD key disk checks, or the inability to make a backup copy of a disc and getting a new one should the old one fail - Native Instruments older discs come to mind...the ones with the two extruded dots. Also, although N.I. is presumed healthy they have a player locked to gigabytes of data. Ruin the disc, N.I. folds and doesn't find a buyer (highly unlikely) or does and that company say's, sorry, all sales final, to bad for you, and no, you can't recover the samples even if you send the messed up disc, broken disc, any kind of disc.

Now go to smaller companies that have folded or said goodbye to the music industry. For example Jason Synths. If I bought Rebel I'm out of luck for support, forget that he charged a fortune for the plugin back in the day. I'm out of luck but lots of people have the now free (thank's Jason, sorry I don't rate a friend or friendship discount while being one of the few paying customers!) version. I don't get to be his friend in his friendware scheme and I have to go to great lengths to find his stuff if I still want it. e.g. I took Rebel off my computer, now I have to find the stupid file.

I think as consumers and for all people's best interest there should be a software agreement companies make that leaves their databases available to servers willing to host it. I look at my library of virtual instruments and shudder.

Most of the new ones requite a new serial number if they have to be reinstalled on a new computer. That means for the most part, I'm locked to this computer which is maxed out in terms of speed it makes sense to upgrade to without changing motherboards or hard drives that you boot off of. I'm good with new mobos and hardware as it's a great case and built like a brick shithouse. I can find any mobos for existing technology so I have about 600 clock cycles to go which just isn't that important to me currently. When Pentium whatever 5gb come out or Athlon 5200 XPs, whatever the new stuff is, I am going to be limited to what my case allows me to fit. I can only update so much. It's way more finite than I am comfortable with and very much a concern to me.

I have little rights if a disc fails. Read those licenses, you'll see. I trust most companies to be reasonable eg. I prove no malice and get a free replacement or paid (within reason) replacement. Further, I don't want multi CD disks where any one CD can mess me up. The odds go down when it's a DVD.

Do others feel concerned and wish to start addressing how to let companies know how we feel. And note, I don't mean in an aggressive way, but asserting our beliefs that while software isn't free we should have some rights with legitimate purchases better than the cunts that don't pay these companies for their worthy labors.

you came up with this idea during the NI server drop out?

Didn't know of it, actually. I have a number of plugs that work only because the s/n is it's only protection.

I also have graphics programs that ceased to exist, weren't bought or sold to other companies that had elaborate registration technqiues no longer usesable.

10 years ago graphics and 3D were hot. Right now audio based applications. I don't like software laws that do not reqire companies to keep their software capable of running post purchase and say minimum five years after that.

x_bruce wrote:

Didn't know of it, actually. I have a number of plugs that work only because the s/n is it's only protection. I also have graphics programs that ceased to exist, weren't bought or sold to other companies that had elaborate registration technqiues no longer usesable. 10 years ago graphics and 3D were hot. Right now audio based applications. I don't like software laws that do not reqire companies to keep their software capable of running post purchase and say minimum five years after that.

i totally agree with the last paragraph. maybe there should be more business models like "sam for rent" - just in case the developer went bankrupt (apart from other convenient aspects).

now, what if waves or native instruments went out of business all of a sudden (or any other non-audio company with advanced copy protection) - what a disaster for the user community.

which are those graphics related products you mentioned (just out of curiousity)?

x_bruce wrote:

Didn't know of it, actually. I have a number of plugs that work only because the s/n is it's only protection. I also have graphics programs that ceased to exist, weren't bought or sold to other companies that had elaborate registration technqiues no longer usesable. 10 years ago graphics and 3D were hot. Right now audio based applications. I don't like software laws that do not reqire companies to keep their software capable of running post purchase and say minimum five years after that.

I agree with you on this. I started late to the game with regard to graphics programs, but I do have a lot of yesterday's stars, that are today's bloat. I can still use it all, though -- I just don't any longer.

I fully understand why companies need copy protection, but we need to be protected, too. I have spent a small fortune on music software, and I will be plenty pissed if any of it becomes unusable because a company went out of business or because I upgraded computers. Because of the relatively low cost of computers today, a lot of us will be upgrading fairly often. To date, however, I haven't encountered any problems obtaining new registration keys/serial numbers when I needed them.

What I do for Challenge Response is contact the company to find out what they will do in the chance that they go out of business.

I only buy from companies that claim they will release an unprotected version to registered users in such a case.

Amazingly, one of the moderators for Native Instruments made an official post on their forums that he would do exactly that!

-Brian

I am suggesting that we should let manufacturers know how we feel. I know that I'll think very long before using a customized solution. For example, Fruity Loops uses a very strict copy protection but...
1. in most cases problems are resolved very quickly
2. they are major players with retail boxed copies and downloadable, less expensive, better overall update path versions

I feel comfortable they'll be around longer than "Jimmy's Bitchin' Pluginz" note:to the best of my knowledge there is no such developer. If I see Jimmy's plugz are only available through his Geocities site warning flag 1 goes up. If his site goes down a few time warning flag 2 goes up. and so on....

Most devs that spend time here are responsible people but again, what would be so hard to have a registry with specific agreement levels a company makes e.g.
1. if purchased on media, defective media replaced upon inspection
2. no returns whatsoever
3. activation within 5 days of purchase, no refund after that, possible new choice or agreement to meet postal date for information should online be an issue.

and so on. You can see who's harsh, who's really harsh and who might be a spam artist. Example - requires name and email address and then sells it to lists, there can be an article stating privacy agreements. If missing, that flag would go up in my mind but perhaps not others.

If I had the programming chops I'd try to implement it and have some type of logo certifying developer participation.

I think that many companies are quite liberal on their policies and don't see the need to get reactionary on all devs because a few have gone security phobic any more than I feel companies make it to easy for me to purchase a license and want to find the crack just in case I need and can't get the application back up again using regular registration or re-registration.

I've given thought to the standardization of license agreements that would be both company and customer friendly. That led me to come up with the End User Bill Of Rights (EUBOR).

I wrote up about a page of ideas. Maybe if there's lots of interest, I could start a thread here about it. Though, I don't have the time to thoroughly bang it out.

Brian

Brian,

how about submitting the information for publishing in musicFAQ.net. This is the kind of subject I want to cover.

Right now I'm doing reviews but once we have the reviews done it's going to be article based. The reviews are there as a courtesy to developers we like and because people seem to enjoy well costructed reviews. Send it to [email]x_bruce@yahoo.com[/url] if you are interested.

Here's some of my ideas. If you like, then I'm willing to let them be used on musicfaq. I'm sure it will be discussed and modified heavily (as that would be the point), but it would be nice if my name could appear somewhere on the credits for the thing

I wrote this in 2001, so I'm sure my attitude was impacted by software related events happening at that time.

End User Bill Of Rights (EUBOR)

It would clearly define and separate the physical media and the content on the physical media. One belongs to the end user, the other belongs to the company who sold it. If the end user destroys all copies of the content of the media, then they should have the right to resell, donate, or destroy the media itself.

All end users who purchase software are buying per-user licenses and not per-machine licenses. It's ridiculous to think that a user should have to buy software twice if they are the sole user and they are only using it on one machine at a time. Has any 3rd party company heard of a laptop that people use when they are away from their work desktop?

All companies provide a copy of their license agreement before the user makes a purchase. This could be over snail mail, email, web, fax, or (gasp) even phone.

It gives the user the right to modify code. This includes cracks/hacks. For example, no-CD crack. However, this does not give the user the right to duplicate the software and give it to others.

All copy protected software may be returned for a full refund.

The EUBOR understands that piracy is rampant, and thus, allows software developers to take measures against it. Dongles okay. The form of copy protection must be completely disclosed, not by its technical merits, but rather, how it will impact the user (i.e., the user must insert the CD once every 6 months).

Always allow 2 installs (laptop & desktop).

There needs to be a guarantee against upgrades that cause failures, change of functionality, and change of copy protection.

End Users are responsible for storing promises by the manufacturer (i.e., save any emails/webpages for proof).

A company does not need to support a new OS, unless they promised to do so.

A company is not allowed to charge for an upgrade to a customer if a promised feature is not delivered in the old version, but it is in the new version.

Bill of Rights for web shoppers:
Any online store or service which doesn't honor its listed price will pay the greater of $5 or 3% of the highest ticket price item once per day.

Bill of Rights for Online Multiplayer Games:
There can be no banning of buying/selling authorized items. Though, the game creators are not responsible for whatever transactions occur.

Bill of Rights for Software Users:
Copy protection is allowed, but a user must be allowed to use their software on any machine. The transfer of rights between the machines must be able to occur in under one minute, and not be dependent on another service (like a phone company or ISP).

Bill of Rights for Soundware Users:
Users of soundware are allowed to sell their used sample CD's if no backup copies of the samples exist elsewhere, and no samples are used in any songs by the seller. Also, samples may be used in game/multimedia productions as long as the samples are encrypted with reasonable means.
----
Challenge Response (C/R) Policy:

Describe what happens if the company goes out-of business. Escrow key?

If you could send me the file I'd appreciate it. That way I can get out of trying to reformat the K-v-R page. Also if you feel like discussing it a bit more and amplifying points you have the chance to.

We're interested though...

I know this sounds crazy, but I would purchase MORE software if there were no copy protection at all.

I like to be able to load my software when, where, and how i want to. This is why I love the free offerings so much..... Its so much easier to deal with...

This is gonna sound completely crude, but software cracks have no expiration. If your company of choice folds, the crack will permit it to run forever. That's like the ONLY time I would consider using one these days.

One other is if I paid for software & had to do an elaborate song & dance to open it (ie. Reason), I'll slam a crack on it to get past that shit. But that's it. And that's only if I'm a registered user & the copy protection is driving me insane. What are you supossed to do when you have a project requiring like 5 dongles? Your machine is gonna look like one of those underwater mines with all the probe thingies sticking out of it

sickle666, you bring up the exact point I want to address.

Rather than having to turn to cracks, registered users should be allowed access to the general database which participating developers would entrust licenses and quick responses/keys.

It's probably not a popular idea with developers and because of the remarks both you and I made in this thread I can understand, but there's the truth.

bobaudio, I think it's wonderful that some developers can afford to give you free software. I find it deplorable that the percentage of people willing to buy their even better shareware won't because they feel inconvieninced by having to pay for software and not expecting at least a serial number for their protection.

The whole software should be free debate, and I'm not saying you are making this argument bobaudio, is beyond moronic. In essence there are people saying that someone who spends weeks or months of their time should just hand overe the fruit of their work and time as free software to the masses. If I'm wrong, give me the correct manefesto for the 'software is free' mentality. For example, should the synth dev be able to borrow a killer hook from a song as payment? Or is software not worth paying for? Where are lines of distinction drawn? Are you working? Do you pay rent? Do you buy food? Pornography? What is of value if creativity and work are meaningless?

You're suggesting a software 'Potter's Field'..I love it.. a place where we can visit our dear departed loved ones..& resurrect them from the dead.

I love Necromancy.

The idea of a database is a stupid idea.
I see no problem with software becoming useless if the parent company folds.

What about when you have worn out your novel through reading it, should the publishing company give you another one?

Or your movie tape becomes worn out through being played too often. You will expect a free replacement?

Or your CD or DVD becomes scratched and unplayable. Will you demand the music or film distribution company replace it?

I don't think so to any of these, so software shouldn't be any different.

You can't reasonably buy a piece of software expecting to be able to use it forever.
The reason why ppl think software should continue to be replaced is because the medium is cheap. But you can say the same thing about CDs and DVDs.

If you buy software which becomes unuseable because the parent company folds, and so can't extract your 'precious' tracks which are in a proprietary format, then you're a fool!
And if you can't figure out how to use a crack in the worst case scenario, or don't wish to, then more the fool you!

This debate is SOOO OLD!

I personally don't expect any record company to give me a free replacement if I wear out one of their albums.

Thank goodness that we have the legal right to make backups of our music purchases!

Just because Beethoven died shouldn't mean we aren't able or allowed to listen to his music! Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool!

-Brian

thenumber23 wrote:

Thank goodness that we have the legal right to make backups of our music purchases!

Yes, so we have the tools ourselves:

- backup your software
- backup your music, and also transfer it to a free or unencumbered format
- if your software uses C/R, have cracks saved, in case the company folds

That is it.
There doesn't need to be any database, nor rewritten software licenses, nor any other of the daft solutions proposed.

thenumber23 wrote:

Just because Beethoven died shouldn't mean we aren't able or allowed to listen to his music!

Strawman argument!
Sorry you lost, but thanks for playing.

Unfortunately, there is a legal flaw in your plan. Namely, that is to use illegal cracks. Granted, you don't see it as a flaw...

But, with experience, you'll learn that unless you can change the legal possibilities to be acceptable, then you are always going to eventually lose. You'll get sued by someone, and you'll lose money. Just because there isn't a Gestapo "software equivalent" of the RIAA today doesn't mean there won't be in the near future.

Any professional studio that isn't a hack job would require a legal solution to address their potential woes, hence this thread.

Brian

Let's see...
I've had my main saxophone for over 20 years and my M1 synth for 15, and they do, from time to time, require maintenance and/or repair. While I certainly wouldn't expect the manufacturer to replace them if lost, damaged or stolen, I wouldn't expect them to suddenly cease to exist if that were to ever happen. Our software are instruments as well, and given the fact that people do upgrade their computers, and shit does unfortunately (though hopefully not) happen, software developers should have a liberal policy when it comes to accomodating those circumstances. It's simply not the same consumer to product relationship like the examples given concerning worn out books, records or videotapes, and needs to be approached differently.

comparing software licenses to a worn out book is one of the less intellegent things I have heard here that didn't come out of my own mouth. Congrats for sounding dumber then I do..

The only reason I feel a piece of software should be outdated from is an upgrade to the software's OS that makes it phsically impossible to execute the file.

sickle666 wrote:

comparing software licenses to a worn out book is one of the less intellegent things I have heard here that didn't come out of my own mouth. Congrats for sounding dumber then I do..

Speak for yourself.
It is always the final recourse of lamers with weak arguments to resort to ad hominems.

sickle666 wrote:

The only reason I feel a piece of software should be outdated from is an upgrade to the software's OS that makes it phsically impossible to execute the file.

Most shrinkwrappped software is treated exactly the same as a book i.e. no replacements for any reason except for defective media. And defective returns are subject to time limits.
The only exceptions are detailed in the license agreements.
Shrinkwrapped software comprises the vast majority of software, not just your blinkered worldview of VST plugins.

meroveus wrote:

What about when you have worn out your novel through reading it, should the publishing company give you another one?

If you destroyed your novel by reading it, the responsibility lies with you. If your software no longer works because the company no longer exists, the responsibility lies with...?

meroveus wrote:

Or your movie tape becomes worn out through being played too often. You will expect a free replacement?

If it should break down within the time specified in the guaranty/warranty, of course I would. A minimum of 2 years in this country if it breaks through normal usage.

meroveus wrote:

Or your CD or DVD becomes scratched and unplayable. Will you demand the music or film distribution company replace it?

That's why most countries allow you to make a backup copy of media you own.

meroveus wrote:

I don't think so to any of these, so software shouldn't be any different.

In a sense, as all are products, yes the consumer should have some form of protection for their investment. Maybe you have a point here

meroveus wrote:

You can't reasonably buy a piece of software expecting to be able to use it forever. The reason why ppl think software should continue to be replaced is because the medium is cheap. But you can say the same thing about CDs and DVDs.

I have several 40+ year old records and a hi-fi that is 25 years old with record player, and have no problems... Surely it's more a question of quality of manufacturing, and taking care of your equipment. And on top of all this, software does not have that many moving or fragile (or come to it physical) parts that should explain this kind of behaviour...

meroveus wrote:

If you buy software which becomes unuseable because the parent company folds, and so can't extract your 'precious' tracks which are in a proprietary format, then you're a fool!

Why is a user the fool for the business practives of a company? Possibly the company for spending all its revenue on R&D for useless copy protection... If I own other types of products, such as the CD's DVD's and novels you previously mention, AND if the copmany responsible for these products go bankrupt, I STILL am able to use the product I have spent money on. That is a massive difference!

meroveus wrote:

And if you can't figure out how to use a crack in the worst case scenario, or don't wish to, then more the fool you! This debate is SOOO OLD!

IMO the necessity to install the crack as a PAYING CUSTOMER is a definite indication that something is wrong. In the end, it is the paying customer who has all the hassle. Surely not the way to reward those paying your salary )

meroveus,

so many people have responded I can't add much other than saying your analogies are red herrings, they go nowhere and attempt to confuse or defuse the issue.

To be so seriously upset by calling the idea stupid and then saying (at 24 posts on K-v-R) that it is such a tired idea makes me wonder if you might have an agenda that might be threatened by having companies in the virtual world being responsible just as their hardware comrads are.

I can't back up older N.I. discs. I haven't tried with the new C/R ones as they don't get disc fatigue as many older releases do since the disc is a copy protection scheme as well. Chalk that up to poor planning for the future. And that's in part why I started this stupid thread that is so old.

meroveus wrote:

.... This debate is SOOO OLD!

Yet people still respond with some of the stupidest posts imaginable.

Robert

I can name three VSTi’s currently out that I have not bought because of copy protection. It may not be the main factor, but it can push borderline products to the “don’t bother” category. This is primarily small, new companies. I don’t worry about companies like Spectrasonics that have been around for years, but when someone starts a new company and puts challenge response copy protection on their first product I get worried.

Oh, and while record companies may not replace records or CD’s when they wear out sample and software developers will replace CD’s for a small fee. You are buying the program. While you can break a CD only the developer, a host or an operating system can break a program.

Robert

meroveus wrote:

The idea of a database is a stupid idea. I see no problem with software becoming useless if the parent company folds. What about when you have worn out your novel through reading it, should the publishing company give you another one?

Not a good analogy.

To use your scenereo above, what if I buy a novel today from Publisher A. In order to read that novel, I have to give them my address, and they give me a code that says I can only read that novel at home. Now, being the slow reader I am (and the fact that I enjoy reading, and like to take my time and enjoy it), I'm only 1/2 done before my house burns down.

I build another house, but I have to call Publisher to get new code. But wait, Publisher A is out of business! I can't finish my book.

Reminds me of some software components I bought for development. There used to be a company called Turbo Power that sold components for Delphi development environment. My company owned most of them. They came with serial numbers.

Turbo Power didn't go out of business, but they decided they wanted to get out of the software component business. Thank God they decided to donate their code to Source Forge...

vbfischer wrote:

I build another house, but I have to call Publisher to get new code. But wait, Publisher A is out of business! I can't finish my book.

touché - now that's what I call an analogy

D

On the Bitheadz discussion boards from Monday June 7, 2004:

"Hello all,

From what has been passed along to me, it is unfortunately true that BitHeadz has ceased activities as a business entity. The office has been vacated and the remaining employees laid off."

This now creates the possibility for the worst-case scenario for those users of Bitheadz products, which rely on challenge-response for activation. It remains to be seen whether or not Bitheadz goes out with some dignity by helping its customers with a permanent solution to this problem.

This is no longer a hypothetical discussion.

Brad Pearson
THG Music
Spokane WA USA

What are YOU talking about ?

The licence should not depend on
the installed OS because people outthere use different OS of different age (Win 95,98,2K,XP,Linux/Wine...)

As OS and the licence for a VSTi
are 2 pairs of shoes i vote for the following:

As long as there are compatible
hosts/operationsystems available
- new and used ! - NI and others have to ensure the rights out of a purchased licency to the user who spent 00/500/1000 dollars
into their products (!).

It's a contract of purchase not a
timelimited leasing contract !

vista quoth What are YOU talking about ?


What the hell are you babbling about vista? This thread is about copy protection, not hosts or operating systems.

There does seem to be some strenious objections and misreading of the thread.

Concept:
copy protection should be available if a company folds.

There are no perfect computers, power outages and surges do fuck up, even with extreme power management equipment. People fuck up.

The way many licenses read you are shit out of luck after "x" amount of installs onwards to somewhat acceptable c/r systems. But if a bad system is set up with a bad company, something the consumer should not take 100% blame for risking a purchase with, there are actually people saying - "Oooh! Shut up! Leave software alone! People eat meat!"

If I can't uninstall and reinstall to troubleshoot a system error because a disc or password got goofed up I don't care who you are, there should be a responsibility by companies that use aggressive protection. I mentioned a registered databank. Someone tried to spread monkey feces on it while demonstrating the wit and wisdom of a three year old launching a tantrum. State your reasons or get out of the pond. It's the same as don't complain unless you have a suggestion on fixing something which I did. Funny how those complaining use no reasoning that makes sense to anyone on the board except themselves.

Hi

I don't know if this is how NI's reinstalls normally work, but i have reinstalled both Absynth and Reaktor Sessions on several occasions and simply used the codes they sent me on registration - and they work fine each time - BUT I have not altered or added any new hardware - If I had then I don't know if I would have to re-register?

I don't like copy protection of this nature - it does not work anyway; I had a perfectly working crack of Vokator - I mean it was so well done it didn't even have the warez crew banner or anything, it simply operated as per normal but without any copy protection!

I wiped it and will probably buy it some time soon, I 'acquired' it through being inquisitive and never used it other than to demo!

Don't flame my honesty - I have spent £2,000 on software in the last year alone - most of the devs probably would recognize my name - I am just putting a point across (and I don't use warez - to make my music).

I sold some hardware today and was chatting to the buyer (who runs a PA hire company) and he was talking about CD's and how expensive they were from the high street stores and the need to search on E-Bay or wherever to get up to 30-40% discounts - he went on to say that he gets given lots of copied CD's which he throws to the back of the cupboard after a couple of hearings - the ones he likes and continues to listen to he goes out and buys.

My point is the market place for sales of any product is not going to shift measurably by using copy protection - if companies were more reasonable this would manifest in a lot less hysteria - like THIS very issue of what happens if a supplier goes bust.

As I have said before - does anyone honestly believe that even NI's promise to release product codes that free your software 'FOREVER' - will manifest when or if the company go shyster? - no I didn't think so either!!!

The fucking liquidator will have a big grin on his/her face as they rip the PC housing the codes from the wall to sell it at auction for $50!

Flipper.

Mac users will throw it right back at you flipper, they'll claim, don't know if it's true, that there are no cracks of Logic 6, and accoutraments. Could be so, that was a reason Logic and Windows parted company, or at least piracy was used as one reason for not supporting the product on Win boxes....

I agree with you. Copy protection just encorages obnoxious crackers to work harder, get better at it and like dealing with criminals, instead of rehabilitation we see better and nastier criminals leaving prison.

x_bruce wrote:

Mac users will throw it right back at you flipper, they'll claim, don't know if it's true, that there are no cracks of Logic 6, and accoutraments. Could be so, that was a reason Logic and Windows parted company, or at least piracy was used as one reason for not supporting the product on Win boxes.... I agree with you. Copy protection just encorages obnoxious crackers to work harder, get better at it and like dealing with criminals, instead of rehabilitation we see better and nastier criminals leaving prison.

Aggressive copy protection will turn a $30 plugin into the Holy Fucking Grail. I don't know how many of you ever used Hotline client/sever, but back in the day, the hotline servers would list the stuff they had cracks for, & you would see like the craziest, most useless stuff in the very short server description. Stuff like Maya's 3D app..

Someone wanna tell me who the fuck besides a 2-4 year Art graduate is gonna be able to use that damned thing? It was MAJOR trading material. Useless to EVERYONE who got it, but irresitable nonetheless. I knew guys that ran servers that never even installed ANY of the files they would serve, they were just feeding this stupid addiction. It's an accumalative need, not a desire to actually use what they steal. 1% of those hot files might actually see use, & out of those, it's mp3 players & CD burning software..

Don't know why it's so hard for ppl to understand that.

I used to use warez, because I didn't know what software was out there.. I needed to discover. Bear in mind this is more than 2 years ago now!!

But I found those products that I truly value and I bought them.

As for copy protection... I don't believe it helps legitimate users, all it does it piss them off.

Have you seen those Jamaician bodygaurds you get when you buy a DVD player?? They're great!! They stop you from using copied DVD's and everything!!

Have to feed them buscuits though...

Amberience wrote:

As for copy protection... I don't believe it helps legitimate users, all it does it piss them off.

copy protection is indeed somehow supposed to "help" legit users, because - theoretically - protected software is pirated less, so there might be more purchases, and pricing could be left on a lower level.

that's theory.

practically, many copy protection mechanisms feel rather like *punishment* - as well as many license agreements or node locking or host/system ID locks are.

less would be more.

i appreciate companies with a relaxed point of view here, who don't punish e.g. users who want to install products on more than one machine without using them simultaneously. i know a lot of people who own more than one pc, but only use one at a time - either for home and studio situations or owning laptops for "mobile creativity management".

locking to a single machine is a pain for these users - as well as dongles are a pain for mobile users.

c/r protection is a pain for everyone who wants to keep his DAW apart from the internet for any reason.

the worst thing is that the music industry makes the same mistakes. copy-protected audio cds which don't play in car audio, in cd-rom drives, in some dvd players...well...let's see when they introduce the first dongled metallica album...

isdjan wrote:

practically, many copy protection mechanisms feel rather like *punishment*

There is something about the difficult schemes that feel like the shifting of blame. Somehow we the consumer should feel guilty for letting the pirates run amok.

Still, as the saying goes, don't like it, don't buy it. I've stuck by that. Hard to do, though, when the new copy-protection scheme comes in a version upgrade.

isdjan wrote:

well...let's see when they introduce the first dongled metallica album...

Metallica have been acting like dongles for years now.

Cheers,
Steve

Ok, so a lot of people agree copy protection can be a pain for legitimate users.

Now, what would you do. It doesn't need to be a novel like some of my posts, just a simple thought on what you'd like to see done to protect your purchase.

Because no matter how much we protest there won't be serious change in copy protection. For all the complaining people still buy.

So let's try to shift to idea time. I stated my idea. What about others?

x_bruce wrote:

Ok, so a lot of people agree copy protection can be a pain for legitimate users. Now, what would you do. It doesn't need to be a novel like some of my posts, just a simple thought on what you'd like to see done to protect your purchase. Because no matter how much we protest there won't be serious change in copy protection. For all the complaining people still buy. So let's try to shift to idea time. I stated my idea. What about others?

honestly - reality has shown that copy protection (almost) never was able to stop piracy...maybe illegal distribution was delayed, but it simply *happens*.

imho, a serial (with an online database check even) would almost do the job.

remember - all those fancy dongles, license server, or to name other stuff like macrovision for dvds - all that costs money, because the copyprot companies charge for their development.

so copy protection schemes like those mentioned have prices made go up. companies should keep it simple again.

without c/r, dongles and the like, probably even *more* people will buy - remember the waves pace discussion recently.

The only thing I've bought that used a dongle was Reaktor3, which I now regret as so many ens files have been converted. There isn't shit under the sun that's gonna get me using a dongle for ANYTHING.

There's nothing that begs for a crack more than a dongle. The first message it sends is that it doesn't trust it's customer base, as they are the ones stuck with the dongles while every hip hop nigga runs wild with an 'un-crackable' copy (however lousy his PRODUCER SKILLZ are..). This establishes at least a sub-concious resentment to all legit users.

*thinking out loud here*

Serials are great for conveniance, but they are easily distributed.

Some guys (IE synapse) don't even bother with a serial, you're account is stored on a database on his site & just download any registered synth with no set-up. (hmm..that's just a different spin on the same problem..you still have to register) You get a limited amount of downloads like Dash does as well, & that's it, outta gas.

reFX doesn't have serials either, which I always liked, he just sends you a dload link, or used to, I forget how I got Vanguard, but all the early stuff was a link & registration is handled via Share-IT, Satan's Corporate HQ here on Earth.

I KNOW!!

We could use like a diabetes testing machine & draw a prick of blood & use it on a mini-DNA scanner with a convieniant USB connection (power is drawn from the USB line). This enables a genetic upload that will mark your perpetual digital signature with any future purchases, whenever you wanna use your product, that same DNA scanner shoots 3,000 mini needles at high velocity into your palm causing a high amount of blood saturation on the reading devie, for quantum-redundant verification of your genetic marker. Any attempts by an infidel to utilize this illegally will cause the introduction of a catalytic enzyme that induces cellular lysis in a matter of seconds, starting in the groin area.

For an extra $17,000 you get a Bio-hazard visceral goo-sucker that will remove any offending non-registered user's remains from your workstation area. Of course, city sanitation needs to be contacted for off-site re-location...but that's a different story.

Is that a potential solution guys? Whatcha think?

x_bruce wrote:

So let's try to shift to idea time. I stated my idea. What about others?

Problem is, I don't actually think there is anything that can be done. Forcing c/r-free copies of software to reside in escrow in case of the demise of the developing company would be a violation of their rights of ownership.

The only thing that can be done is to demand better copy protection schemes as consumers. The recent case with Izotope is a clear example of that. Customers complained and the company listened. For stuff you own already, you'll just have to cut your losses if/when the time comes.

Or maintain old computer systems for years just to run the old software. There are still some guys listening to 8-track cassettes out there somewhere. And think of all the hassles tube amp owners go through to keep their equipment in working order.

Cheers,
Steve

I have no problem maintaining a legacy computer. Fact is I can get a P3 for $100, actually I have a 40 gb hard drive and Athlon XP 1700+ just sitting around with an available sound card (Darla 24). If I didn't have a tiny place I'd put another system together via my nephew who'd be able to do it probably for $200 with at least 512 of memory, and that would be the most expensive part!

The point is if I choose to use the purchased VSTi then I have every right to use it on a machine. Fuck any company that says I can't change computers, yet there are companies that would, in effect charge me a install for downgrading or upgrading which is simply wrong.

If developers have the option to mirror databases you can believe a bunch of consumer orgs would jump at the chance to host an ethical system. And if a developer chose not to work this way, then if they had c/r I'd probably say forget it. If they had c/r and it wasn't live critical I'd buy.

Here's a second reason for something like the voulantary db. I'm in a corporation. Funds are comingled but accounted for. By some copy schemes I'm dead from that breakup and disoved corporation. Now I have to prove I was the rightful licensee. This is a true example. I had to sell off my synthesizers. I committed 10% to the corporation for VSTi purchases. This was 2 - 3 years ago. The corporation had my money which came out to almost $1000. I started purchasing, mixing commercial with shareware and bought the bulk of my current library with that money and gig money. Sometimes, because it was easier for my partner to do he made purchases on his credit cards. I trusted him to account for the corporation funds and since we were incorporated for 5 years I know he was honest. But when he bought shareware under his credit card (with the intention of repaying himself from the corp.) several licenses were issued to him rather than me. I registerd them and they were on my personal email address. However, when the band broke up and the corporation disolved I went through hell getting all the places with his name to change it to mine. Most companies did it without much hassle, Image Line, iZotope and a couple others that billed that way changed everything. I also had to change programs registered under the corporation name back to my name. I purchased or used funds from the band to purchase these items. Here things got tougher and took a lot of FAXes and legal bullshit. For example, we didn't buy a second license of Sonar because Cakewalk told us as a corporation we could use multiple computers, but only if they were not used at the same time. That wasn't a problem and to make sure we set hours for when I could use Sonar and my parnter could. He took 6 hours for the week and I had the rest of the time. But when the corporation disolved I had to get Sonar put back to my name. I purchased it from a license upgrade. Bottom line, everybody but three companies, none now in business and of course with c/r that no longer worked were lost to me when I upgraded. They would have worked fine in my latest computer but they went down the tubes and were purchased by a major company that did not support old accounts.

Thus my concerns. I don't like getting screwed out of $600 because the company didn't give a damn about it's users in case of something like bankruptcy and being bought out.

A plan is necessary imo.

Hi

In response to xbruce's comment about Logic 6 not being pirated -I don't think there are many warez out there for the Mac full stop?

I am not into that scene, so I don't know - but I am pretty sure there are not too many youngsters with hi end Apple mac's.

You know, the PC platform is so popular and affordable that it will always have rampent pirating - but as another brethren stated - anyone really into making music with some disposable income will almost certainly end up buying legit software for various reasons - it does not matter what the reasons are - the fact is we all end up buying legal software!

If I wanted I could have £10,000 of the top/best audio software on my PC within a week and it would not cost me a penny, other than the monthly cable bill - why do I buy it - because i enjoy the whole experience, I have some money and I can talk to you lot with a clear conscience.

Flipper.

Fortunately there is something in the industry that will happen real soon which will bring this issue to the forefront.

That will be the company failure of one of these downloadable music services. Since most are based on DRM (digital rights management, similar to challenge/response), as soon as one folds or stops authorizing licenses, there will be a huge consumer uproar. Enough of one, in my opinion, that new laws might be created.

Once something like that happens, all software products that use C/R will be affected across the board.

Brian

What about having to buy something kind of like a dongle, but more of a hardware version of their registration tool??

One thing we can assume as fact though is that because software is by its nature a digital program... they will always be able to be cracked with enough time and patience.

Rather than trying to kill piracy by fucking off their legitimate customers, companies should be offering bonuses to their legitimate customers.

We all like our music to be heard right?? What if there were a company set up to produce a free magazine that reviewed peoples music, but only people who are legitimate users of software - This is a bonus to the companies too because they get advertising by their users songs.

Oh, and funding would come from the money that all these companies waste on copy protection.