Hey all, first of all I know that CSound isn't an "instrument" strictly speaking, but I didn't see any other forum category that matched it better...

Now, can anyone here tell me that they use CSound seriously to create music, and if so, how?? I've gotten the book and looked through example orchestra and score files, and it all just seems to me to be an impenetrable mess of mathematics and raw text files. Sure, a person COULD compose music in it, if they had a PhD and hours upon hours to slave over a hot keyboard typing in pitch variations one at a time.

It all just seems like a bunch of abstract academic wankery (musical revolution my foot), but if anyone can tell me otherwise, please let me know because it seems like it could be quite powerful if it were more user friendly.

there are programs out there that put a gui on what is essentially csound. PD is free. max/msp is expensive. Reaktor is another program that was originally based on csound.

I have the big CSound book, too. I always intended to go deep in to it, but like you, the process itself deters me. I'll start, then end up feeling like I'm better off with any number of the synths I already own.

I'd say CSound is a great way for a talented sound designer to make raw sounds which then could be rendered more useful within a powerful ROMpler. Certainly a KYMA or somesuch would be great for that, too.

Another alternative is writing scripts to generate scores. Remember, Csound gives you control over every parameter of everything in the world, for every note... more or less. But that power comes at a price. Depending how you want to use it, Csound can be frustrating or incredibly cool. I find it cumbersome but haven't tried the new GUIs yet. I tend to use ancient text-based tools instead of the cooler new items. Some day!

Anyhow, if you have the Csound book and the CDs that came with, you're in good shape. Look at http://www.csound.net/ for the latest news, download some goodies, and let 'er rip.

Best of luck,

Meffy

Sh@ne S@nders wrote:

I'd say CSound is a great way for a talented sound designer to make raw sounds

Oh yeah.

Meffy

I've been tempted from the start to add a section to Futurehaus.com where developers and sound designers would come to collaborate, especially around something open like CSound. I always thought that it would be cool for there to be a group of people who were more like scientists (doing what they love) working closely with a group of artists (doing what they love), but not in a dev/customer paradigm.

But I've noticed that developers don't seem to collaborate in the way that artists do, at least here at KVR. It seems sad that some of the best synth designers don't really get together using UML and map out a large scale monster workstation, both extensible and fearsome. Then pool their brainpower and go for it.

If I ever get rich, I'm going to commission something incredible, though; mark my words!


edit: oooh, 1000 posts.

UML, eh? For music... hmmm...

No no no, I've got other kinds of software engineering to do. Not just now! And I have no DSP to speak of.

Meffy
please don't wave shiny things in front of the skunk; it's too tempting

I have had the same experiences, frustration, lack of patience, etc.I'm interested in actually hearing music composed with CSound.I've searched the net for examples, but haven't found any.Does anyone know where we can listen to actual works made using it?

king syrus quoth there are programs out there that put a gui on what is essentially csound

Correct

PD is free

But not based on CSound

max/msp is expensive.

But not based on CSound

Reaktor is another program that was originally based on csound.

Incorrect.

For music made in CSound, BTW, check the links on www.csound.net

king syrus wrote:

there are programs out there that put a gui on what is essentially csound.

If I can remember, there's one called Blue that does this, and another called Cecilia or some such. I imagine it's all to be found at csound.net.

I've heard some interesting stuff done with Csound, especially some really cool time-stretching and the like. That said, I've never really heard anything you can do with it that you can't do elsewhere.

It's a tool to consider, but more and more, there's a lot of overlap between audio tools these days.

Cheers,
Steve

Dufay wrote:

I have had the same experiences, frustration, lack of patience, etc.I'm interested in actually hearing music composed with CSound.I've searched the net for examples, but haven't found any.Does anyone know where we can listen to actual works made using it?

Kim Cascone
Boca Raton

Groet, Erik

another GUI based version is CsoundAV

best place for news and links is csounds.com

But I recommend everyone take a look at Cecilia as mentioned earler

Ceclia for Windows

HERES a nice article on it.

And theres a lesser known book called Virtual Sound which is also worth getting if you really want to learn

Csound is something that has interested me for a while now, particularly since i cant afford Kyma! As of yet, i know very little about it. I figure its a language intended for people to code audio algorithms and such like, so I'd image some heavy DSP knowledge be mandatory. However, this idea of having GUI based versions sounds great! I'd imagine it would still involve a fair amount of typing, but this has to be a gentler way to approach the language for the first time.

Correct me if im wrong, but is CDP based on Csound?

tee boy

Correct me if im wrong, but is CDP based on Csound?


Yup. Basically, its a set of audio processing tools that uses CSound as the underlying engine. They are command-line tools, though, but there are a couple of front-end GUI's for them...

Cool, sounds like Csound might be worth the time and effort after all.

So tell me, how much can you actually do in Csound? Can it do the kind of wizardry systems like Kyma are up to? Are there many premade modules about, cuz i'd imagine that wouls be a good place to start?

You can do a lot, but its a lot of work getting there because you're really dealing with a fairly basic programming language which is far more primitive in many ways than most common languages. You also have to write not just your instrument definitions, but your score as well. Thats one reason CSound is often used as the engine for other 'higher-level' tools.

I'd say Kyma's language is probably more sophisticated in that it makes it easier to componentise stuff; with CSound your 'component' level is cut-and-pasting of text. But CSound has an amazingly broad set of functioanlity built in.

My preference would really be to use CSound to process samples, or check out the current status of CSound VST (must see if it works in eXT )

As for premade modules, have a look at csounds.net and follow some of the links from there, ie the Amsterdam catalog and the Csound catalog.

Definitely go through the 'Beginner Toots', and pick up one of the editor packages or front-ends to make things easier. If you're on PC, you get a more 'modern' variant in CSoundAV or CSoundVST.

And definitely consider getting hold of the Boulanger book.

Thanks for all the input, info, and tips, everyone. I d'led and installed Cecelia, and it looks promising to really help ease my learning curve; purdy pictures always make the headaches go away. It seems to have a few bugs, but hey, you get what you pay for.

I agree with whomever said that a good way of working with CSound is to make some samples with it to load into your favorite sampler and go from there in a sequencer. That looks the most promising to me. I loathe the idea of typing in, or even generating from script (means I'd have to re-learn Perl or Python) a textfile score for an entire composition. But the ultimate flexibility of CSound looks like it could be used to generate some off-the-wall textures and ambiences.

For whoever asked about compositions written with CSound, there are a bunch in the CDs that come with the Boulanger book. They range from unimpressive blips 'n squeals to something approaching a modern "orchestral" piece.

Now, about CSound VST. I have had this & played with halfheartedly a few months ago and from what I can tell, it's not something that you can load as a VST into a host sequencer, but rather something that can load VST's into ITSELF. Anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I've always wanted learn csound but it seems like such a mountain to climb

what's the best way to start?

CreepJoint wrote:

another GUI based version is CsoundAV best place for news and links is csounds.com But I recommend everyone take a look at Cecilia as mentioned earler Ceclia for Windows HERES a nice article on it. And theres a lesser known book called Virtual Sound which is also worth getting if you really want to learn

ah.. nice
thanks for the tip

spaceman wrote:

I've always wanted learn csound but it seems like such a mountain to climb what's the best way to start?

It is a mountain. Best start for most people is Prof. Boulanger's Toots.

Meffy

Meffy wrote:

spaceman wrote: I've always wanted learn csound but it seems like such a mountain to climb what's the best way to start? It is a mountain. Best start for most people is Prof. Boulanger's Toots. Meffy

thank you very much

now let me have a look at that mountain path

spaceman wrote:

thank you very much now let me have a look at that mountain path

You're quite welcome. Remember, this isn't going to make sounds that rival Reaktor's best ensembles right out of the box. It does, however, offer close to absolute control of a kind no MIDI synth can manage.

Fortunately, it can be throttled back, placed into a MIDI- or VST-based shell, and made a bit more friendly. I recommend understanding the basics first before moving on to the GUIs and other goodies. It's the best way to understand just how deep the power of Csound goes. It's also intimidating -- don't give up, and don't hammer it. Take things at a pace that interests and challenges you, but don't get frustrated. There's plenty to do.

Best of luck!

Meffy

Thanks lads for the advice! I have Csound AV downloading and Cecilia, should give me plenty to get started with. What i want to do basically is all the more experimental audio processing, the kind of stuff i cant find plug ins for you know. There are loads of techniques that i heard about people doing in Kyma which i really fancy trying, but as yet havent been able to through limitations with software.

tee boy wrote:

Thanks lads for the advice! I have Csound AV downloading and Cecilia, should give me plenty to get started with. What i want to do basically is all the more experimental audio processing, the kind of stuff i cant find plug ins for you know. There are loads of techniques that i heard about people doing in Kyma which i really fancy trying, but as yet havent been able to through limitations with software.

Please keep us updated. I'll subscribe to the thread.

Right, I'v just been having a play with Cecilia. This seems like some seriously cool software! Its basically a load of little programs (called modules) which are controlled via a large graphical editor. Really easy to get working with, similar to editing in Absynth i suppose. The standard modules seem like they might have some potential, although iv not really done much yet. They seem particularly aimed towards time domain processing with some nifty looking grainular modules.

What sets this apart though from other progs is that you can actually create your own modules. This involves a certain amount of coding, not sure to what extent yet. I suppose this mean that you can knock up anything so long as the Csound language supports it. I think it might be a while before Im doing much in this neck of the woods, so in the mean time I'll be hunting the net for some third party modules. You'd think there would be plenty floating about, so fingers crossed! Im particularly looking for spectral stuff like some realtime morphing etc. I also want to look into manipulating formants independant of other frequencies - i heard some cool stuff involving time / formant independant stretches!

The Csound Book is an excellent source of ideas and goodies, and I'm buying the Csound Catalog (with mp3 auditioning) soon as I can get their checkout system to accept my order.

Meffy

I've just ordered the book in the spur of the moment
I better not regret it

spaceman wrote:

I've just ordered the book in the spur of the moment I better not regret it

I hope you won't. It's got chapters on many levels, from the basics to very advanced topics. As with Csound itself, don't expect to wrest every secret from it at once. Reserve the headier material for later, when you've gained expertise. I've read the whole book, but understand less than half so far. The most complex topics will probably elude me always but that's okay.

The CDs alone are more than worth the cost of the book. Lots of good material there. Use it as is, adapt things, or just learn from it.

Meffy