Sorry for the strong statement (formerly said: it kinda sucks), but I hope it will draw ImpOSCar fans from miles around with good suggestions.

Imagine you play live, and all your soft synths are instantiated in a rack for the entire show (just like hardware). Some synths are great in this environment (Synth1 for example). ImpOSCar is not.

Here's the problems I'm trying to solve

1. Only 32 presets! Gmedia says that this limit will stay, because their OSCar importer relies on the 32 positions of the original synth. Is it me, or is this the LAMEST restriction. Using this logic, minimoogs emulations would be limited to 0 presets. Plus, how many people actually owned an OSCasr (to import from) in the first place?

Remember, there is no way to load another bank via midi, so unless you pull out a mouse during a show, you can't have more than 32 sounds available per instance of ImOSCar.

2. Edits instantly become part of the patch, even if you leave that patch. ImpOSCar is not alone in this behavior, and I HATE it. If you use ever grab a knob during a performance, DON'T SAVE YOUR RACK or you will overwrite your presets. I prefer presets that revert once you leave the preset (unless you explicitly commit it). Again, like 99% of hardware.

GMedia's solution is to press the reset button after every song (with is not MIDI controllable by the way). Personally, I just turn off all CC maps except pitch and mod wheel (to be safe, but inflexible).

3. Occasionally, one patch will simply replace another patch in memory (probably has something to do with edits and MIDI patch change events). If you then save your rack, you are hosed.

Sorry for the rant, but its really a bummer when a commercial synth that proportedly spent 3 years getting the filters designed correctly does things like restricting patches to 32 (When any SE synth can have banks of thousands in a few minutes). Hopefully, its not just me that feels this way, and we can push for some improvements for live use.

Eric

32 presets if arranged properly is surely enough for a show?
how long you on for,also thats per bank load a couple of banks up

or different instances

if 32 sounds is not enough, just add more instances and switch between them in a touch of a button.

Eric,

I'm going to make some assumptions, so feel free to correct them:

a) the impOSCar is not your only (or main) synth
b) your host allows you to instantiate more than one
instance of the impOSCar.

You bring up some valid points about some of the shortcomings of this product, and I agree that some of what you bring up needs to be corrected; Who knows, maybe the impOSCar uses a bitfield with 5 bits allocated for the program number.

The impOSCar sounds great, it's reliable (doesn't eat memory or crash unexpectedly), is a good value, and is (more or less) playable. It is what it is.

However, everything has shortcomings. Maybe you shouldn't concentrate so hard on these and focus on the more positive aspects of this synth.

It seems that a lot of decent synths are not designed to use live. In my opinion you should never have to grab a mouse during a show. The first time I tried Z3ta+ I knew that it was a synth designed by someone that has played on stage. With bank select and patch select you can control everything from your keyboard. Other developers are starting to implement more of these features. I was very happy when Peter honored my request long ago for previous/next patch response. At least then you could put your favorite Albino patches into one folder, name them so they would be in the desired order, and then step through them in a show. With the update you can even switch banks in Albino 2. For me, that gives this synth new life on stage. Maybe someday more developers will realize that musicians want to play keyboards on stage, not computers. And the better those keyboards can control VSTi’s, the more useful people will find these instruments on stage.

Robert

Eric

Why didn't you download the demo before buying it? then you'd have known about this. I played with the demo for two weeks before finally deciding I couldn't live without it and yes I would have liked oscillator hard-sync but I accept the imposcar for what it is: An awesome sounding synth that's great value

For you to say "it kinda sucks" is just plain wrong. Your wrong about only 32 sounds in a bank too. There's actually 36


Psycobabble

Well i own a real OSCar - my god i never realised i only had 36 sounds to play with live. How did Billy Currie manage all those years? Hang on, even if you used two sounds per track that would be 18 songs - how long is your live set? i assume you're doing some three hour Philip Glass-type thing then?

Oh, and i wish people wouldn't resort to lame superlatives like 'sucks' and 'rocks' it's lazy and makes you look like a spoilt American teenager.

Mr A

PS i agree you should never have to grab a mouse live - that's why i use hardware.

Rabid wrote:

It seems that a lot of decent synths are not designed to use live. In my opinion you should never have to grab a mouse during a show. Robert

Yeah, this is really the point.

I know ImpOSCar is low-resources and reliable. Thats exactly why I bought it - for use as a live synth.

re: More instances - not a reasonable solution live - every CPU cycle is precious (I mix the whole band through the daw).

re: the "load more banks" idea. Is it possible to load multiple banks simulataneously in ImpOSCar (host: Live 4), such that a MIDI bank switch command will make more available? I couldn't find a way. Its not reasonable to load a bank via a mouse click - all songs must be instantly accessible from a MIDI controller.

re: 32 is enough. My bands' typical repetoires are about 70-100 songs, and we always must have direct access to everything. So 32 won't cut it if ImpOSCar is to be used on most songs.

Thanks to all for the suggestions so far!

Eric

Quote:

My bands' typical repetoires are about 70-100 songs

Crikey - remind me to bring a sleeping bag and Thermos if i come to one of your gigs.

Mr Arkadin wrote:

Oh, and i wish people wouldn't resort to lame superlatives like 'sucks'

I know that "sucks" was too strong, but I was afraid noone would visit if I said "has issues". And I was only refering to the "live" aspects.

I love ImpOSCar. Considering all the work that went into ImpOSCar, these couple of tiny programming issues (I'm a programmer, btw) keeping it from being a great live synth are what really suck.

And regarging using hardware live: where do I buy the polyphonic oscars at my local store . I think most would agree that you should be able to perform anything you record.

Thanks again. No need to chide me about ImpOSCar. I know its great. I need LIVE USAGE tips. Live, as in a real, full-time-working-band-with-100-song-repetoire tips.

Eric

Mr Arkadin wrote:

Quote: My bands' typical repetoires are about 70-100 songs Crikey - remind me to bring a sleeping bag and Thermos if i come to one of your gigs.

well, the idea is that you come back tomorrow and don't hear the same tunes

E

ebinary wrote:

Mr Arkadin wrote: Quote: My bands' typical repetoires are about 70-100 songs Crikey - remind me to bring a sleeping bag and Thermos if i come to one of your gigs. well, the idea is that you come back tomorrow and don't hear the same tunes

because you play very loud?

Quote:

because you play very loud?

Well, not Spinal Tap loud.

But everytime I adjust the volume up, ImpOSCar saves that in the patch, so by the end of the week... 155db of ear-splitting band-pass filter bliss.

Eric

Quote:

well, the idea is that you come back tomorrow and don't hear the same tunes

Presumably then you don't play all 100 in one night. Why not just arrange banks for that night's set list - you'd have to forgo any 'making up the set list on the spot' but do you really play more that 36 tracks in one night?

ebinary wrote:

But everytime I adjust the volume up, ImpOSCar saves that in the patch, so by the end of the week... 155db of ear-splitting band-pass filter bliss.

in that case it doesn't matter much which presets you play because they'll all come out the same...

WHOOOOOOOSS!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr Arkadin wrote:

Presumably then you don't play all 100 in one night. Why not just arrange banks for that night's set list - you'd have to forgo any 'making up the set list on the spot' but do you really play more that 36 tracks in one night?

THanks for the suggestion, but the show comes first and the workarounds come second. I can't use a synth that adds an hour of editing before a nightly show. If a cute chick requests a song while you are in the middle of another, you want to hit it without dropping a single beat.

Its rock&(synthy)roll man!

Eric

In a true "live band" setting you never know what song my be requested. And good bands frequently adjust sets as they read the reaction from the crowd. If software is going to be better than hardware, it needs to be better in all respects. My hardware has banks, patches and even favorites that can be quickly loaded with a touch of a button. This system evolved though 30 years of practice and experiements.

On the other hand, I don't think I ever used more than 32 patches on a single synth in a night. When playing live you do not have to match every pad perfectly. 10 pads, 10 leads, 2 strings, and a selection of pianos and organs. Maybe I am still old school.

Robert

I should probably mention: most of my bands have been original+cover bands. Most have multi-night bookings at the same club.

In the Rocky Mountains area, a typical show is 40 songs plus encores (4 sets of 10 songs). So, in two nights, you could easily play 80+ songs (although your real working set is usually smaller - like 60 songs).

This isn't unusual at all for me or anyone else on that circuit (but maybe unsual elsewhere in the country/world).

Again - I appreciate everyone's commetns.

Rabid wrote:

In a true "live band" setting you never know what song my be requested. And good bands frequently adjust sets as they read the reaction from the crowd. If software is going to be better than hardware, it needs to be better in all respects. My hardware has banks, patches and even favorites that can be quickly loaded with a touch of a button. This system evolved though 30 years of practice and experiements. On the other hand, I don't think I ever used more than 32 patches on a single synth in a night. When playing live you do not have to match every pad perfectly. 10 pads, 10 leads, 2 strings, and a selection of pianos and organs. Maybe I am still old school. Robert

Robert, you definately get "it" (the live band thing). I wanted to make ImpOSCar my main synth, in which case it will definately brush or reach the limit soon.

As a secondary synth, 32 patches might just work (but I want ImpOSCar as my main!!!). Still, using all 32, leaves you no handy starting points for new patches without constantly swapping banks, saving individual patches and reloading them, etc. (I think even the poly800 had 64 or 128 patches).

Bottom line - its just a dumb, dumb, restriction in an otherwise smart, smart synth.

Eric

ebinary wrote:

Mr Arkadin wrote: Oh, and i wish people wouldn't resort to lame superlatives like 'sucks' I know that "sucks" was too strong, but I was afraid noone would visit if I said "has issues". And I was only refering to the "live" aspects. Eric

See that - I edited the title from "sucks" to "has issues" and I got no more replies. Thats what I (sadly) figured.

I have to change it back to "sucks", I guess.

Rabid wrote:

If software is going to be better than hardware, it needs to be better in all respects. My hardware has banks, patches and even favorites that can be quickly loaded with a touch of a button. This system evolved though 30 years of practice and experiements.

The absence of favourites is a good point. It seems that built-in functionality for user customization is often overlooked by many a software developer, and seems particularly absent in music software.

Let's hope developers start thinking beyond just dsp featuresets.

ebinary, I think your gripes appear valid. It seems strange that a synth that appears to be designed with the performer in mind (and is run by performers themselves) would implement functions that get in the way of the performer.

shamann wrote:

ebinary, I think your gripes appear valid. It seems strange that a synth that appears to be designed with the performer in mind (and is run by performers themselves) would implement functions that get in the way of the performer.

Thanks shamann!

I was just talking to Dave from GMedia, and I want to reiterate that ImpOSCar is great in the studio. Even live for that matter, if you happen to load a fresh song for every performance.

But: if you plan to use it exactly like hardware, keep in mind that my 20 year old Akai AX80 has 32 rom presets and 64 ram presets, and ImpOSCar running on a laptop with 100,000,000 times more storage has only 36 presets (that will be modified for the rest of the performance if you turn any knobs).

And for Gmedia sake: the reason for this thread is not because you currently have 36 presets (every synth has limits). The problem is that you comminicated that it is your plan to retain this limit. Presumably for compatibility with a dead, low-production-run hardware product. That makes no sense to me, so I thought I would take the question to some of your customer base.

Eric

Rabid wrote:

In a true "live band" setting you never know what song my be requested. And good bands frequently adjust sets as they read the reaction from the crowd. If software is going to be better than hardware, it needs to be better in all respects.

Yeah, this is mostly OVERLOOKED here at kvr and in computer music in general... the reality of playing live in a band... !!! If you are dragged in front of the screen, have to look at it and mouse around, you have lost touch with the audience, and may have lost some vibe.... Remote everything, all live all the time!!!!... how long a song will last, how many repetitions of certain parts, sound shaping, switching the order of songs... all that needs to be done real fast, preferably without having to touch the mouse....

If I can do that with an obsolete groovebox, you got to have it with a shiny new computer, right?

HI

Well there you go; some quite strong (and heard before) thoughts on what appears to be a not insurmountable issue?

I would wonder if this can't be given some serious thought for a future update?

Flipper.

WaveRiderArts wrote:

Yeah, this is mostly OVERLOOKED here at kvr and in computer music in general... the reality of playing live in a band... !!! If you are dragged in front of the screen, have to look at it and mouse around, you have lost touch with the audience, and may have lost some vibe.... Remote everything, all live all the time!!!!... how long a song will last, how many repetitions of certain parts, sound shaping, switching the order of songs... all that needs to be done real fast, preferably without having to touch the mouse....

I'm having the same kind of issues with using the Oddity live. Being unable to change presets with midi program change or control change messages makes it that bit more difficult and inflexible. Great sound though

jamesb wrote:

I'm having the same kind of issues with using the Oddity live. Being unable to change presets with midi program change or control change messages makes it that bit more difficult and inflexible. Great sound though

original flipper, WaveRiderArts and jamesb:

Appreciate your input. Glad to see I'm reaching some of the users who understand these as serious (and easy to solve) issues for live performances.

I know GMedia is listening (though they understandably don't like my choice of the word "sucks")... so thanks for sharing.

I hope they don't really mean it when they say that the ImpOSCar demo is supposed to keep customers like me away (the unsatisfied type, that is). A few simple changes and they make me and all the performing musicians happy - why wouldn't they want us as customers?

Eric

Well, it seems at the moment that studios and home producers are the main users of VSTs (just a feeling - is this true?) But I think in the future, more and more people will be using software live on stage instead of hardware synths. I'm sure enjoying my hammond organ, fender rhodes and arp odyssey all fitting into a tiny little box!

So, I think it would be worth developers making sure that their synths are as useable live as possible, to expand their market to more live musicians.

jamesb wrote:

Well, it seems at the moment that studios and home producers are the main users of VSTs (just a feeling - is this true?) But I think in the future, more and more people will be using software live on stage instead of hardware synths. I'm sure enjoying my hammond organ, fender rhodes and arp odyssey all fitting into a tiny little box! So, I think it would be worth developers making sure that their synths are as useable live as possible, to expand their market to more live musicians.

exactly james,

Thats just what I said to GMedia (ProTools just released their live-only product line, for example).

Today, there are a lot of emulations of old hardware in software, but do we think someone is ever going to create a hardware emulation of a z3ta or even a polyphonic hardware version of ImpOSCar? Nope!

Assuming some of these home-producer-VST-users get their music widely distributed, its not good enough to tour with a synth that sounds close, you want to use the synth you recorded the song with live.

Some of these software synths are the only things that can do what they do... so assuming live music will continue to exist, softsynths need to be designed to work, and work well, live.

BTW - my personal favorite for closest thing to hardware (from a midi control perspective) is the slightly non-standard Synth1. 9 banks of 128 sounds (stored on disc and shared among applications), and you press "write" when you want to commit a preset in a permanent way.

Eric

Hey Eric. I'm not even a live musician at all and I agree with you.

You mean they actually said they were keeping that limitation to be true to the hardware? Surely that must have been tongue in cheek!

The situation seems really bizarre to me.

I have been noticing more and more people taking their computers on the road just in the posts in these forums. Demands are now being placed on hosts to come up with the goods for live performance and I see no reason why VSTi should be immune to the push - especially when what you're asking for seems (on the surface anyway) relatively simple to implement.

Hope you get somewhere with this.

Caleb

Caleb wrote:

Hey Eric. I'm not even a live musician at all and I agree with you. You mean they actually said they were keeping that limitation to be true to the hardware?

Here is the direct quote, just so I don't misinterpret it:

Quote:

This is fixed at 36 because the original OSCar had 36 notes which also acted as memory locations. We need this to continue to be 36 because of the OSCar to impOSCar preset converter that will be coming out shortly.

My feeling is - are GMedia's customers the guys who bought a hardware OSCar from another company 10 years ago, or the customers who bought a softsynth from them today? I've never even seen an OSCar in person. But I'm guessing if they still made OSCars they'd have been updated to 100 banks of 36 sounds

Eric

But think, without that limitation you wouldn't have all those lovely presets in the first place from Billy Currie, Underworld, Mark Moore etc. as these were taken from real OSCars.

Maybe by just having say three bank buttons on the front panel they could keep the 36 presets limit per bank (so you have 108 presets available from the front panel and available from MIDI Program change Nos. 1-108 with 109-128 doing nothing).

Dunno, is that dumb?

Mr A

Hey Eric,


You certainly make some good suggestions. Have you tried contacting GForce about this. Depending on the success of ImpOSCar (which so far looks good) you might be able to help impliment some changes in their updates. I would recommend that to anyone who likes something about a software but has issues. I'm sure that software companies get all sorts of feedback but with persistence you can make a change. Do it maaaaan!

BTW I think that ImpOSCar is really cool considering the CPU load it takes

-Eric

heh heh. Anyoe notice the banner ad for Zero G Altered States on this page? 3499 patches? One extremem to the other.

Robert

Mr Arkadin wrote:

But think, without that limitation you wouldn't have all those lovely presets in the first place from Billy Currie, Underworld, Mark Moore etc. as these were taken from real OSCars. Maybe by just having say three bank buttons on the front panel they could keep the 36 presets limit per bank (so you have 108 presets available from the front panel and available from MIDI Program change Nos. 1-108 with 109-128 doing nothing). Dunno, is that dumb? Mr A

I see no reason why an import program would care how many presets the destination has, to be perfectly honest, as long as it has enough space.

Well, its not a dumb suggestion at all to use banks, by why stop at 3? How about 32? 64? 128? ( VSampler has 128 banks of 128 - Thats pretty reasonable). MIDI supports bank change messages, so no need to map them back to program changes.

Eric

Eric N wrote:

Hey Eric, You certainly make some good suggestions. Have you tried contacting GForce about this. -Eric

Yup, thats where I started (and got the "we are keeping that 36 patch limit" reply). I responded to that mail, and didn't hear back.

So I started this thread to try to find a workaround (or some like minded paying customers to help push for change), and then they contacted me because they didn't like the title of my thread.

Sigh...

Eric

Mr Arkadin wrote:

Well i own a real OSCar

Imposcar is a real synth!?!?!?!?!

tell me where i can buy it right now!!!

Quote:

Imposcar is a real synth!?!?!?!?! tell me where i can buy it right now!!!

Well OSCar is the cut-down hardware version of impOSCar with only 36 memories and no polyphony

You can have mine for £850.

Actually you can't have it, sorry changed my mind.

Quote:

MIDI supports bank change messages, so no need to map them back to program changes.

Yeah, i was trying to suggest a compromise where the three 'banks' were effectively one bank with progs 1-108, but keeping the 36 patches limit in each 'virtual bank' so-to-speak.

Having used Roland gear for so long i've come to hate Bank changes (shudder).

Mr A

ebinary wrote:

So I started this thread to try to find a workaround (or some like minded paying customers to help push for change), and then they contacted me because they didn't like the title of my thread. Eric

As for workarounds, one that I've found useful as an interim measure in EnergyXT is to save a separate .ext file for each song in my setlist, then the ext page loads up with all the appropriate synth patches/effects for that song. You can use program change messages to change between the .ext files.

But, it's still not as flexible as I'd like for using Oddity. Plus, if Oddity did respond to program change messages, there's ways to make it a polyphonic synth in EnergyXT - sounds great!

jamesb wrote:

As for workarounds, one that I've found useful as an interim measure in EnergyXT is to save a separate .ext file for each song in my setlist, then the ext page loads up with all the appropriate synth patches/effects for that song. You can use program change messages to change between the .ext files.

I own EnergyXT too, but I believe the patch-to-file mapping only works if you are using XT as the host. If you use XT as a VST wrapper, I don't believe the patch-to-file mappings work.

Althoug XT is cool, I need the features of Live 4 to mix a band.

Thanks for the suggestion though

Eric

Now this is just my opinion and not directed at any individuals at all(So I hope I don't get shot down in flames).
I really don't see the issue surrounding ONLY having 36 Patches per Bank with the impOSCar (Or any other device), in a Live situation or otherwise.
I used to use an original OSCar Live and had troubles with its MIDI implementation being totally rubbish,but I would easily be able to arrange my
sounds in order to achieve a full sets worth of sounds.
I also feel that we all have it to cosy these days and it's often too easy to sit comparing one products strengths/weaknesses with another product.
I feel its better to decide what you are going to use to get a given gob done
and just get on and do it.
I don't mean for that to sound all high and mighty,as I'm such a gear slut
that I can also find objectivity sometimes hard to come by,but recently I've realised that Kit and Computers screens can often take over your thoughts as much as the Music does,which to me is wrong.
Drunken ramble over

woodster wrote:

I really don't see the issue surrounding ONLY having 36 Patches per Bank with the impOSCar

I won't flame ya, I just disagree. When you write the code, you declare an array size: Hmm, should I declare patches[36] or patches[128]? I mean, this is just one of those limits you have to wonder about.

I used to arrange around hardware, but non-volatile memory was expensive, so you knew why you were doing it - to save some money on the cost of the unit. But adding more patches in a VSTi is free.

Plus, I also play bass and engineer my current band, so I don't have time to mess around with arbitrary limits like this - its not a matter of coziness or complaining for the sake of it - just not enough time in the day.

Unfortunately this thread produced no secret technical workarounds. But, Dave at gmedia has now given me some hope for the future (he was out of town). So I will deal with it for now (as my non-primary synth) and await hopefully an update that can kick it up the synth foodchain.

Thanks to all for the help

Eric

Nice one ebinary.

Having some old OSCar banks myself,I just worshipped the ground GMedia
walked on in making it possible for me to use loads of classic sounds I'd
programmed over the years.
I can understand 36 memory locations seeming very backward to you in this day and age,but for me I'll forgive any shortcomings for this vsti.