|Author||Topic: Apple just bought Emagic, no more pc support|
Posted: 1st July 2002 12:29
Check this out everybody.
Posted: 1st July 2002 13:18
This is close to the dumbest move a company has ever done...
Not only does Apple spit on 35% profitable revenu (they are not exactly making too much profit...they missed bankrupcy by an inch 3 times already) but it also leave the coast clear for Steinberg to eat the whole PC scene and push it to new boudries without having to worry about any other serious contender (except Cakewalk, but they don't have the same crowd).
Apple is shooting themselves in the foot and you'll probably see alot more studio's and musicians making the PC jump because of Cubase SX for example...like all the current ones with Logic 5 Plat they bought this year for BIG bucks.
I don`t know who is steering the wheel at Apple...but he/she is a real maketing and strategist dimwit.
Posted: 1st July 2002 14:40
Maybe they think they can convert some of those 70,000 Logic/pc users to macs, who knows what they're thinking. I can imagine that Logic/pc people ARE pretty upset about it.
I use DP3 and a mac and the Unicornation board (motu products) is buzzing pretty good right now. I've been considering a switch to either Logic or Cubase and I think now I'll be leaning towards Logic.
It sure is kicking the week off with a bang.
Posted: 1st July 2002 14:59
All I have to say is IK you'd better get your asses moving on an OSX version of Sample Tank!
Posted: 1st July 2002 16:41
This is so fucked I can hardly talk about it. I have a great system running Logic PC and a PC laptop and have recently sprung for Logic Control and the platinum 5 upgrade. I hope Jobs and the Emagic brass choke on their champagne.
Posted: 1st July 2002 16:46
quote:No using the "f" word here, mate. Awe fuckin' hell! Whatever! This is CRAZY!!!!! Crazy I tell you!!!
Posted: 1st July 2002 17:21
Sorry Squidz, as hard as I try, I can't bring myself to type Fuck in your pristine forum.
Posted: 1st July 2002 18:40
I can't believe this either - actually, I AM a Mac user and I think it's idiotic. My biggest fear is a backlash, followed by a collapse of eMagic. F**k Apple, I can easily use either Mac or PC, but if eMagic folds as a result, I think it'd be catastrophic - what a huge loss for electronic musicians everywhere. How selfish of theme to dis all those PC users...unforgivable.
Maybe it has something to do with eMagic's alliance with Digidesign/ProtTools, which is still predominantly Mac...who knows?!?
Posted: 1st July 2002 19:06
This is one of the more bizarre bits of news I've heard in a while. No doubt there is more to it. I don't think it's looking too good for VST support from them. I'd say it's a rather bold move for emagic and Apple. It is quite suprising. Now I REALLY want to go to Mac World!!! Darn! NAMM and Digiworld are at the same time (I will be there with my SR gang) and this is just too interesting.
This leaves some of you PC Logic users stranded and I am sorry for you. This sucks. But, it can happen in business. Maybe they had to. Who knows?
[ 01 July 2002, 22:13: Message edited by: Squids ]
Posted: 1st July 2002 19:18
quote:I also believe this will be a major backlash.
I see 2 reasons for the whole thing:
1. Greedy owners
2. Idiotic Apple business guys.
I'm not against Mac - I think it's a cool machine, but have u seen the ongoing apple campaign? Check out www.apple.com
"horrid little PC" etc.
Do they really think people are idiots? OK what have they got to loose... but anyway.... a sad descision...
Posted: 1st July 2002 19:52
Ah this is a thread I could read all of, the 12 page one on the main forum got bored after the third or fourth page.
Anyway I'm just surprised Apple would do that. As a PC user I always pictured MS and the whole PC thing as being the States, this great but sometimes horrible (often deceptively so) entity that was just huge and almighty, while Apple was like Canada our friendly & clean small neighbor to the North with nothing bad to say or do. All of a sudden they pull out this one. It's as though I just turned on the computer and found out Canada just dropped a nuclear weapon on Spain for no reason. I think it's a low move for Apple, but hey I'm a Sonar user. It's good to know they'll be at least a few more of us now.
Posted: 1st July 2002 19:55
quote:While Apple is not quite Microsoft, I have always had a beef against their killing of 3rd part hardware (anyone remember powercomputing). So this is not that big of a surprise.
Posted: 1st July 2002 20:43
Now it's even more likelly that the rhumor of Steinberg developing Music OS might come true.
The only other stupid thing that can happen is for MS to buy out Cakewalk.
Posted: 1st July 2002 21:04
quote:No. If history follows true Microsoft will NOT buy Cakewalk. They will work with Cakewalk very closely, learn everything they can about music software, release their own sequencer and patch windows with some code that will cause Sonar to crash repeatedly until people give in and buy the Microsoft program.
Posted: 1st July 2002 21:14
quote:From who? PC users who already hated Apple before this happened? Right, like they had much of a chance with that crowd anyway.
As for the rest you could always switch programs, switch to a Mac, or dare I say it stay were you are. You might even get more music done because you won't have to worry about having the latest greatest version any longer.
quote:I guess you aren't aware of what Apple did in the video editing world. A few years ago they bought this little program that Macromedia had pretty much orphaned that did video editing. About a year later Apple released this program called "Final Cut Pro" which pretty much blew all the competition out of the water. This is just a logical extension of what they did for video into the audio world. By buying one of the best sequencer programs out their they won't have to spend so much time developing it into the next killer app.
Posted: 1st July 2002 21:25
quote:From who? PC users who already hated Apple before this happened? Right, like they had much of a chance with that crowd anyway.[/QUOTE]/QUOTE]
My friend, what I mean is that this whole damn thing has already spread such a bad athmosphere that I think a major number of people will really think twice before buying any more suff from Emagic - be it software OR hardware.
You see, most of the boys and girls running Logic or are considering buying it have no big income from music. But still fighting hard with their bucks to make it in the business.
Posted: 1st July 2002 21:33
quote:Exactly. My guess is that Apple was going to make their own sequencer/Daw since they acquired some of the main Opcode guys and perhaps they realized that instead of making one from scratch they would be better off just buying Logic and all the other stuff that goes with it. This could be really good (as in making music more mainstream) or it could be really bad (if they abuse it and try to "make" people go to this platform).
I think that the abandonment of PC support is really bad though. Even Microsoft makes some Mac programs. If they can support the Mac then certainly some software that already supports both can continue even if it is owned by Apple.
It would have made more sense if Apple bought MOTU I think. They were at least all Mac to begin with. I bet they are THRILLED!! (sarcasm). You realize this puts one of the 2 main computer platforms into the competition for sequencing/DAW. If they wanted to they could make some proprietary stuff in OSX and not allow companies like MOTU to develop with the same tools... you know- unfair advantage.
Personally, I think it's always a bit scary when the OS makers are making or owning your software apps. It's too tempting for them to try to use both to control your decisions into getting their product and not others. Well, they can only do that to a certain degree but still... you know if they have Emagic then they don't really care as much about helping other developers such as Steinberg or Motu....ooooh this is not good.
[ 02 July 2002, 00:41: Message edited by: Squids ]
Posted: 1st July 2002 21:35
Microsoft bought an Amiga program called Bars and Pipes many years ago,I'm surprised it hasn't been seen since.
Posted: 2nd July 2002 01:37
I guess it's time to chime in here. Yup it's a big story alright but not all too surprising. Ever since Opcode went west and Doug Wyatt went to work for Apple, I knew that sooner or later Apple would come up with some way of incorporating a pro music app into their existing line of products. Many have asked on this forum and others "why Emagic, why not MOTU or some other app?" I don't know if we'll ever know the answer and really, how important is it anyway. Yeah, it sucks if you're a PC/Emagic user and I can relate. I'm now on my 3rd sequencer program with DP3, having begun with Master Tracks Pro (tits up for all intents and purposes), Opcode Studio Vision Pro (tits up for all intents and purposes), I guess I've poured a few thousand into these over the years. I was shocked, in disbelief, grieved got over it and kept making music. In a few years from now who knows what platform I'll be using, but I'll still be making music. I don't think this is a stupid move on Apples part contrary to what many have said (an understandable reaction), I think it bodes well for any Mac user in the long run. PC/Emagic users will have some tough decisions ahead, but if experience tells me anything, they won't need to make any serious moves for about a year and a half, which is what I continued to use SVP for after the infamous "Gibson death move". SVP still has many users and a forum of faithful users who have continued to provide support for one another, much better than Gibson ever did.
Posted: 2nd July 2002 02:23
Don't worry everybody. It's only matter of time untill Microsoft buys out Apple
Posted: 2nd July 2002 03:21
quote:And it'll only be a matter of time before computers learn to program themsleves and destroy us all!
Posted: 2nd July 2002 03:24
I agree. I don't think it was stupid of Apple. Maybe not the smartest thing for Emagic's image to ditch their PC users high and dry though.
For Apple it's probably more for bragging rights than it is to try and benefit from the miniscule amount of money Emagic must make for Apple to be interested for their revenue. Maybe they just want their technology because it works well, has an established user-base and it is one more thing to add to the "make your own movies, make your own CD's and DVD's" thing. They get a lot of stuff with that purchase! I wonder if they'll use it all and continue with the whole line of hardware and software! I mean, does Apple care (NPI) about Sound Diver??? How much do their care about Wavburner when they have CD Burning software already? Some of this stuff is bound to go unless Emagic just continues to do their thing like normal ( of course not without pulling the rug out on Windows users).
There will be some chaos with Windows Logic users. But, those of us who remember Mastertracks Pro, SMPTEtrack (another solid sequencer) and even Steinberg Jones Pro24!!! know that this can happen. I hope that Apple handles Emagic better than Gibson handled Opcode though. You never know. On the Mac side of things I like to think optimistically that this will somehow make doing music on the computer more mainstream and this will mean there will be more going on as a result in many areas. In other words, imagine an ad on TV for turning your computer into a music recording studio (you KNOW they are going to get Barry White and a TiBook getting it together baby!). Sure, it scares the heck out of you- no more "secret" knowledge. But, on the other hand this could be good! Why not let more people out there (other than the ones that FOUND KvR or read the MT mags) know about this cool technology which allows you to record yourself 100 times over and over. Imagine how many housewives can harmonize with themselves all day instead of watching a soap opera! Or Soap Oprah!
I am being sarcastic and serious at the same time. But, over all, if they actually push the technology they are aquiring then this promotes creativity with humans....I am all into that aspect.
However, I think it really sucks for PC Logic users. No doubt. We have Logic on the PC here too. I am looking at the box and thinking "what a shame all of that programming work they did is going away on this platform". Seems like a big waste to me. I wonder what Apple paid for Emagic. Anyone know? (yeah right)
[ 02 July 2002, 06:26: Message edited by: Squids ]
Posted: 2nd July 2002 06:12
Worms , Apples . It's a good mix.
Posted: 2nd July 2002 12:03
Parts of Bars and Pipes, once for Amiga, are incorporated into Direct Music, a not-too-well known portion of Microsoft's DirectX specification. It is capable of generating randomized music via softsynth according to defined styles for use by web or other media designers. Somewhere deep in the specs, I saw a display that looked very much like some "c" code I made publically available for Amiga users many moons ago, when I was toying with developing Amiga multimedia apps...
Posted: 2nd July 2002 12:22
Squids, I remember MasterTracks Pro. It was my first sequencer and I loved it.... I have fond memories...
And being a Windows Logic user since the switch from MasterTracks Pro, I'm pretty upset about this. I don't mind switching programs (as long as my workflow is still smooth and logical), but I DO mind being treated poorly for being such a Logic faithful. Maybe it's stupid of me to feel that way considering I'm a faceless consumer to them, but it still upsets me.
And I'm also upset about losing all of my work. What if I want to do a re-mix of an old track???
With each new Logic update, I could open my old work and re-save it in the new version and know that I could get at it to make changes. I could use the cool new features to spruce them up.
That's what really burns me the most.
Posted: 2nd July 2002 17:27
quote:Telling everyone up front that they will continue development for 3 months and they will continue to offer support to registered users after that date is high and dry? Doesn't seem that way to me. Now if they really wanted to screw windows users over they would have said starting July 1st no more support.
quote:Apple doesn't own any CD burning software. DVD software yes, but no CD burning software. They have a lisence with Roxio for Toast but they don't own it. Getting Waveburner in addition to Logic may have been the what attracted Apple to Emagic over other companies.
quote:As long as you have that machine it won't go away. Apple buying Emagic and discontinuing Logic on the PC doesn't mean your software will suddenly stop working. Heck Apple maybe doing you a favor, now you won't have to worry about having the latest greatest daw, you can now spend all your time just making great music.
Posted: 2nd July 2002 18:18
Apple doesn't own any CD burning software. DVD software yes, but no CD burning software.
Before you continue spouting nonsense, do some basic research, mate:
Tailored for burning MP3's: http://www.apple.com/itunes/create.html
Generic CD burning:
Posted: 2nd July 2002 21:51
quote:Well, I guess your comments could apply to the average geezer but for us specifically we have Logic Windows for development. It's a shame for us that they are not going to be updating it when there are relevant features of Logic added to the Mac side for what we do. As a user I can care less for ME because I use Mac anyway mostly. But, I feel for the PC users and YES I think it is high and dry enough to say that they are discontinuing in September when they only just came out with a new significant update. If they said they would contnue to support it for a year it would be different. Personally, I think they shouldn't drop it at all. Why? This is Apple using this as a tool for proprietary control and it has some negative consequences for the whole image. Being bought by Apple is one thing. That has it's own potential concern for them handling it better than say Gibson did with Opcode. But, to already kill a third of their customer base when they were otherwise highly respected is just... highly unfortunate let's just say. (a nice way of putting it) I'm not for it or against it from a sound developer's point of view but I can sympathize with the PC Logic users.
Posted: 2nd July 2002 22:10
quote:Yes this was what I was thinking of when I made the above statement. I thought I read somewhere Apple licensed the burning technology from Roxio. I can't find anything now to back this up so I will just assume I was wrong and now stand corrected.
quote:Well I think my nonsense makes more sense then most PC users nonsense! So much doom and gloom BS. It makes me wonder how many of those people actually bought the program and are truly upset or are just crackheads who are pissed that this means the end of cracked copies of the latest version of Logic for the PC. All this makes me wonder which is more important, the hardware you use or the software? If you think its the software then what's the big deal? You can always go buy a Mac if you need the latest version. If not thne Logic will continue to work for you as long as you want.
Posted: 2nd July 2002 23:10
I am most distressed at your post Loren.
Well I think my nonsense makes more sense then most PC users nonsense! So much doom and gloom BS.
Are you a Logic PC user??? Are you being forced to switch computer platforms so you may continue to work with a piece of software where familiarity is a vital element to success? For some of us, Logic is an extension of our creativity. It's like taking the trumpet away from a musician and handing him a tuba. It resembles your instrument (hey it's still brass, you blow, same kinda mouthpiece) but it doesn't FEEL or PLAY like your instrument...
It makes me wonder how many of those people actually bought the program and are truly upset or are just crackheads who are pissed that this means the end of cracked copies of the latest version of Logic for the PC.
I paid for my Logic, and comments like this make me wonder about the state of humanity... Those who steal are the first to suspect others...
All this makes me wonder which is more important, the hardware you use or the software? If you think its the software then what's the big deal? You can always go buy a Mac if you need the latest version.
I can't afford a Mac. Unfortunately some of us can't throw money at every problem to make it go away. And your statement makes me wonder if you've put any thought behind it at all - what happens to the PC I've spent a ton of money on, or the thousands of dollars in software that won't work on a Mac???
If not thne Logic will continue to work for you as long as you want.
Actually Logic is a work-in-progress, like so many pieces of software these days - rushed to release without getting all of the bugs. And even with the 5.2 update that we might never see, (I doubt it will actually be released in time for their August deadline...) it will still be a work-in-progress. And some of us might have wanted to use an improved version of Logic in the future.
It's funny how you forget that most software companies rely on their promise of future updates to get the consumer to part with their money...
Posted: 3rd July 2002 00:50
Well in all fairness, I think to a certain degree you can look at Logic PC and say that as long is it is bug free (or is by September) then what it has is still quite a lot. If you think about hardware- how much did those features change over time? The MP60 I & II- how much did that change over time (besides all new models to buy which still weren't that different...til now of course). So, we have become used to software always being a work in progress. But, on the otherhand look at what it does right now! If that isn't enough to make some SERIOUS music with then... ya know?
But, still, it makes the price of the Mac version much more valuable because you know (or at least think) that there will be continued developments on that side and not the other. The PC version should be less money theoretically if it doesn't have the same future possibilities as the Mac version.
I think that if you are a dedicated Logic user then going over to Mac is not that bad. Of course, I love Macs (even though we just bought another PC laptop today- a Sony Vaio ). But, if you want to stay PC then perhaps it's time to look at Cubase SX or?? I wouldn't be surprised if NI or Propellerheads sort of slot themselves into that sequencing/Daw area though....mark my words on that ones mateys...and in this case I do not know any NDA info this is just a hunch. Or should I say it seems logical? Will NI reakt to this? Does Propellerheads have a Reason? Am I a cornball?
[ 03 July 2002, 03:52: Message edited by: Squids ]
Posted: 3rd July 2002 01:19
Hey Squids you brought up a good point about it being cheaper. Everyone who doesn't own Logic on PC look on the bright side: Logic blowout sales. Sure it'll never be updated again but knowing Guitar Center they'll be blowing em out for like 100 bucks, and you'll get a nice sequencer real cheap. The only that would suck is if you bought it and just loved it, knowing you'd never get more features or a bugfix.
But I do feel for current Logic PC users. Just remember you have Cubase AND Sonar to look into when you do need to get around to buying a new sequencer.
Posted: 3rd July 2002 01:31
quote:I wouldn't be surprised if there were sidegrades to those platforms offered. Hey, we all lose our butts on this stuff so the price loss well...look at your computer!!!! We eat it sometimes don't we all? But, if you recently bought it I think they should do something for you. It's not really fair to make someone pay $900. and then yank the rug on development. You might not have bought it if you new that. Hmmmm. Rebate? Well, I would do that if I was them but I am not them. I wouldn't have sold SR to Apple unless they promised me Sushi everyday and 10 beautiful women to peel me grapes while I lay in a jacuzzi. (Sorry, trying to cheer the PC Logic guys up here. ...of course are there many in this forum?).
On the bright side I suspect there will be a super blow out of Logic PC! Studio Vision started selling for $50 I think! You never know! By the way, can anyone confirm that the company MAGIX is somehow related to Emagic? I just saw their Notation software and all their other stuff selling at Mars for $5. each. You can't even send it to Mars for that amount!!!!! (where you can almost send Logic to the planet Mars for the amount it is!!! JK).
Anyway, there is a bright side to this when the dust settles. Maybe. Let's hope. Meanwhile, the program (even 4.7) totally ROCKS on the PC as it is so... there are people that actually get VS Roland studios. This kicks the VS's butt so...I don't know. It's pretty much worth it if they blow it out and it's worth keeping if you have it (which was part of what Loren was just trying to say). The bottom line: USE IT if you got it (that's what she said...woops sorry.)
[ 03 July 2002, 04:33: Message edited by: Squids ]
Posted: 3rd July 2002 01:33
My main concern as a Maccie is the future of VST in Logic and OSX. I'd love to be able to use OSX exclusively, I'm using it now as I type, but if I'm going to have to leave behind my favorite and expensive VST plugs then that just sucks. I've spent as much money on VSTi's that may become obsolete as a Windows user has spent on Logic Platinum. At least Windows users will still be able to use theirs in whatever program they may chosse to eventually move to. I feel like I have as much to worry about as a Windows user. It's almost like OS9 Logic support will be eventually dropped just like Windows.
In other words...IK Multimedia, please, please, please, please, get cracking on Sample Tank for OSX! Sample Tank will be the main obstacle for me. All I need is Sample Tank and I could make the switch. I'll have EXS24, sample M-tron for EXS or replace with the SuperTron eROM, buy ES2, and replace B4 with Emagic's B3 sim and I'll be mostly good to go.
Posted: 3rd July 2002 01:36
They are working on OSX.
The bigger concern I have is if Emagic is going to keep VST support. It will really SUCK if they don't. I think that would be the last straw.
Posted: 3rd July 2002 05:38
I wonder what effect this will have on VST plugin sales, particularly for Mac, over the next few months, or whenever Apple/Emagic let us know exactly what they plan to do. I know I won't be buying anything new until then.
Posted: 3rd July 2002 05:57
quote:Nope, never said I was.
quote:Hmm that last time I checked no one was forcing you to switch platforms. The way I see it you have 3 CHOICES.
1. Switch to a Mac if you want to conitinue on with Logic development.
2. Stay where you are and continue making great music.
3. Find another daw that works on the platform you like.
quote:Hey I resemble that remark. I started music on trumpet then switched to tuba a couple years later, it wasn't that hard at all and I would expect a transtion from a PC to a Mac to be even easier. It seems to me that you are saying that Logic is more important then whatever platform you use, so in your case you shouldn't really care as long as you have access to Logic. You'd probably find it harder to make the switch from Logic to Cubase or Sonar.
quote:Glad to hear you are one of those who supported Emagic. Of couse I never said everyone complaining was a crackhead, just wondering what the precentage is of actual owners of the software to people who use cracked versions. I based this on a bit of fact. I know several people who use Logic, the one person who was the most upset about this was this bottomfeeder I know who uses a cracked version. I tried to point out that he really didn't have a good reason to be upset since he never bothered to pay for it but he didn't see my point, my guess is he knows his freeride is over.
quote:Well you don't have to buy a Mac today, so start saving up, and when you do have the money then buy one. I think you will find that Mac's aren't quite as expensive as they use to be and if you do a bit of hunting around and possibly settling for last years model you can save even more. Generally a good time to buy a Mac is right after Macworld when they have announced new models.
Hmm, I don't think their is any rule saying you can't have a PC and a Mac in the same studio. Keep using the PC for the things you can't replace and use the Mac for the newest version of Logic and possbilly things you can't get on a PC. I know of several people who work this way. The best of both worlds.
quote:Yeah its called feature-creep. Somethings are really cool but I think a lot is just their to keep us all hooked in their update chain. I guess PC users won't have to worry about this much longer, perhaps you are better off then us Mac users.
Posted: 3rd July 2002 06:04
quote:Well look at it this way, regardless of which way Logic goes, with VST or with some new plugin format you are going to have to get updates to all your plugins as they will have to be rewritten for OSX.
Posted: 3rd July 2002 06:05
But your logic (no pun intended) cannot be extended to the hobbyist (although that is not the platform apple looks at). I can have two pc's, one running Linux for all my other work, and one for music for the price of a single mac of equivalent performance. Since, I am a Linux person, I have no loyalty to windows (hate the OS) or Apple (disapprove of their hardware policies). I have to build a cost-effective studio. A mac, for most people in my boat, is usually a little too expensive. That is a big market to lose. However, as I have said elsewhere, this is consistent with Apple's strategy.
Posted: 4th July 2002 19:36
migration plan Logic 5 Windows Logic 5.2
Apple Acquires Emagic BBC News Sound Herbie Hancock EMI 2|6 Pro Tools HD-Support ES2
NEWS ARCHIVE ...
Emagic offers migration plan to existing Logic 5 Windows users
July 4th 2002
Emagic has always enjoyed a very close relationship with you, the users of our products - regardless of the platform you chose to use. We would like to take this opportunity to thank you very much for your continued loyalty. Together, we have developed Logic into one of the most powerful systems of its kind, and now that Emagic is a member of the Apple family, Logic will become even better. Obviously, the platform does matter now and
we would like to cordially invite all Logic Windows users to join us on the Macintosh.
It goes without saying that we will continue to service and support all Logic Windows owners according to the standard product warranty policies beyond September, 30th 2002. The Logic 5.2 subrelease that we recently announced is a perfect example of our commitment to servicing every existing user.
In addition, for those users of Logic 5 on Windows who wish to enjoy all the current and future benefits of Logic running on the Mac platform, Emagic will make a free cross-platform crossgrade available from August 1st.
This free crossgrade offer will allow you to keep and use your current Logic 5 Windows version - Logic Audio 5, Gold 5 or Platinum 5 - on Macintosh as well.
The offer will be available until December 31st 2002 for every registered Logic 5 Windows user, and details about how to apply will be released shortly.
We would certainly be delighted to have you join us on the Mac.
Posted: 5th July 2002 13:00
I will say that you do have some relinguished rights with software in that there is no promise that the company will continue to stay in business the same way or at all. Of course, this is true of any business really. My friend liked to shop at Service Merchandise...sorry they are gone now. My wife drives an Oldsmobile Alero and wanted to get a new one- woops sorry they are not going to make it anymore... my friend was the guy on the Bellsouth Mobile commercial but WOOPS no more job because they bought up another company and called it all Cingular. I can name hundreds of bummer situations that are as bad or worse than what this Emagic thing is all about.
But, don't get me wrong. This Apple/Emagic thing is not how I like to see people do business. It's too manipulative. I think people should go to the Mac platform because they want to not because they spent a great deal of their time learning a program that has manuals the size of "War & Peace" only to have it yanked away from them on their platform of choice. Sure, up until 5.2 this is not going to affect too much of a loss for current Logic PC users. But, next year when they have version 6 or whatever it will be when it hurts.
So, to that effect, yes we are all at the mercy of companies staying in business or doing things in a fair way for their loyal customers. I think each business would handle it differently. But, it also depends on the stipulations of the deal and who knows what else? It seems to me like Apple used this situation to get people to go to their platform. If they have Emagic get rid of VST support then we will REALLY know what they are up to (they do have their own format they'd like to push for OSX by the way...). How to piss everyone off? Too bad Logic is such a great program otherwise I think we would all be saying "screw them!". Although, I must admit that after being a long time Mac and Logic lover I have a bad taste in my mouth from this at the moment. Maybe there is a bright side to it but... it's hard to see from an outside perspective. On the other hand business is business as it is in the real world. It's just that with music software you'd like to think there was more compassion for the users. There is obviously a lot more to this but they are naturally unwilling or able to explain more about it. I am sure we will find out more at some point (even Mac World in 2 weeks). The plot thickens. Meanwhile I don't think it helps to be paranoid about every company yanking the rug on you like this but we do all take that chance.
I will say this though (relating back to the other threads-res)- if more people would take their licenses and legal usage of these products seriously there would be less of a chance that things like this would happen. In other words, if you don't want a company like Steinberg to pack it in then don't use illegal copies of their product. If you want to use it go buy it! Support what you like and they can continue to stay in business!!! You have to understand that if Emagic's revenue reflected the ACTUAL user base then they might have required more money to be purchased by Apple than Apple would be willing to spend!!! Think about it! You can trace the blame of this volatility to be bought out right to the people that copy and distribute warez. You can practically THANK them for this. Sure it was Emagic's decision to take the deal from Apple but if their revenue was what it should be (if people DIDN'T abuse software the way they too often do) then Apple would have had to offer them a whole lot more and the deal might never have happened. Really. If people realized they have some control over it by being legit users and trying to stop illegitimate usage by others then you could help save your favorite stuff from becoming extinct or from feeling like giving it up to another company.
Posted: 5th July 2002 13:20
Right on Dave! I couldn't say it better myself. Business is Business. Gonna keep cool on my comments but you said it brother!
Posted: 5th July 2002 13:53
Squids, this is what I was getting at. Your wife wanting to buy an Alero that's discontinued is NOT the same as me wanting to remain a Logic user on the PC...
She can get another car and drive it off the lot immediately. I can't drive another sequencer immediately without a HUGE amount of downtime in my studio. And downtime that's going to affect me financially when the time comes to move to another application.
The s**t happens argument is frustrating when you're the honest user. We seem to get a hefty amount of slaps in the face by life.
And unfortunately, it's not economically feasible for me to re-buy everything I own on a Mac platform, now or in the near future (although I would love to be in that position). It's also going to be hard to stay competitive as a studio with defunct software. It's going to be equally difficult to pay what I owe on the defunct software when business dwindles because of it. Now THAT is a catch 22.
And Chris, business may be business, but some people might be put out of business along the way...
I guess s**t happens...
I'm just glad that some of you are sympathetic.
[ 05 July 2002, 17:13: Message edited by: Resonance ]
Posted: 5th July 2002 14:36
Yes, but Resonance, it IS almost the same as my wife's Alero. She can buy another car like you can buy another sequencer (okay the only difference is the learning curve or car driving vs. Logic using...but you haven't met my wife! ..Good thing she doesn't read this forum!!! Ha ha.).
The other thing that is exactly the same is that my wife can CONTINUE to drive her existing Alero for a while. Well, you can do the SAME with your Logic PC. How is there ANY downtime from this? Does Apple come to your house and take the program away from you? Sh*t, they even plan to fix bugs and add the features promised for version 5.2! If they were to just STOP production development at 5.2 across the board and say "TADA" then damn what a powerful product that would be!!!! Think about it! Look at the VS2480 from Roland. They are DONE with that product. Do you know how many people have it and use it still? Quite a lot actually. We get spoiled about thinking software products must be a work in progress. The fact is in this case that on the Mac side it still will be. I can understand being bitter about it if you are on the PC side but I don't see how the argument that this makes you have downtime when you still have the program in your possesion. Plus, if it is that much of a concern to learn a new program then you can get a free crossgrade to Mac platform (so it will cost you some to get another computer but if you are running a studio and it's important to you then....) OR you use Logic because you know it on the PC and if you want to stay on the PC so you also learn Cubase SX on the side but still do your Logic gigs until you know Cubase well enough...
I am not defending Emagic but let's have proper perspectives. This sucks but there are work-arounds.
Posted: 5th July 2002 14:37
Here's my take on the whole thing:
Apple's moving the Mac to be more of a media machine (shouldn't they have been doing that all along?). They've got Final Cut Pro, they've got iDVD, etc. They need killer audio apps. They've got some core audio and core midi horses in OSX, thanks to the guys they absorbed from Opcode. But they can't get the Opcode products themselves because Gibson will never in a million zillion years release the rights.
So Apple grabs one of the highest-rated mac audio program (not counting pro tools - Avid wouldn't stand for that). Instant audio powerhouse. Plus they get instant access to all of Emagic's hardware, software, DSP expertise AND strategic partnerships.
I know a lot of PC users are pissed that Emagic is ditching them, and that's pretty screwed-up. But from a purely business standpoint, Emagic has a lot to gain - there may be 70,000 PC Logic users out there, but there are millions of Macs that can run OSX, and if their product is in some form or another crammed in with the OS...that's a huge essentially captive audience. And, despite Apple having financial troubles from time to time...er, okay, a lot...they still have a lot more money and resources than Emagic themselves do.
Now, a business justification doesn't make PC users happy, and I can understand that. But from Emagic's perspective, they lose a small (in terms of software sales) market in exchange for a lot of cash, a bigger captive market, and a huge marketing department. And they get unprecedented access to the low-level hardware and OS - they can be first-to-market with enhancements by a long while, and that extra time can be a huge advantage in a feature-driven studio market.
What surprises me is that nobody has brought up Sounddiver. While I'm pretty certain it'll end up as part of OSX (midi management as part of the OS! Wow!), there're several OEM versions that are integral to plenty of other companies' products. Line6 has OEM versions to handle POD patching, Alesis had some, Access...if Soundiver stops being cross-platform, there's going to be a lot of grousing. Perhaps it'll get spun off or something.
It's an...interesting development. This could go in a lot of directions, depending on Apple's strategy and Emagic's own agenda. It could be a huge boon for both companies, or it could be a huge boondoggle. Since Emagic isn't being fully absorbed (they're just a wholly-owned subsidiary) if worse came to worse they could spin back off.
The Mac User in me is excited. The PC User in me is pretty annoyed. The Linux user in me is indifferent.
Posted: 5th July 2002 14:49
Squids, I don't see how you can pass judgement on my 'perspective' when you are not in my personal OR financial situation...
But, that's alright - no hard feelings.
Posted: 5th July 2002 15:03
quote:I am not passing judgement on your perspective. I am refering to the perspective from your post. Can you or can you not continue in your studio using Logic PC? If we are talking about it let's try to be realistic for intellectual purposes. I DO sympathize with your situation as a Logic PC user though. It sucks. I am not saying to be happy about it. But, if you are able to think about it the way I am describing then perhaps there is some food for thought. Perspective to listen to or not.
But, it's all good and believe me I am not taking sides!!!!
[ 05 July 2002, 18:06: Message edited by: Squids ]
Posted: 5th July 2002 15:43
Since nobody gonna buy Logic PC, it would be fair to give all PC users the 5.2 update for free ... in a "perfect" world.
If my shops weren't closed *this* monday ... well very very lucky tight timing
Now I'am having great fun with XP update chores, will install SX after a big defrag and I hope steinberg's latest is not a premonition : (O)SX !!!! scary !!!
Posted: 5th July 2002 16:02
"Since nobody gonna buy Logic PC, it would be fair to give all PC users the 5.2 update for free ... in a "perfect" world."
I've been pretty amused by the "least they can do" restitution measures people have suggested here and elsewhere:
"Give all us PC people free licenses to EVP88, EXS24, ES2, etc.... " (Over $1000 in plugs... right..)
"Give us our money back" (from people who have used the program for months/years... )
"Give us a FREE Crossgrade to Mac" (Well, they did that, but nobody's happy, are they?)
"Give us a free Mac"...
I'm not saying that this is a GOOD situation for PC users, but this sense of "You owe us" is just silly. You bought software. They're supporting what you bought. You're only losing access to a FUTURE, UNSPECIFIED UPGRADE on your PREFERRED platform.
Posted: 5th July 2002 18:59
Well, I do think that they should give Logic 5.0 PC users the 5.2 update for free, I think they very well should offer that cross-platform upgrade too.
But, besides that I think there's not much else they can do if they have had to make some harsh business decisions. They are obviously willing to lose your business if you want to switch to another sequencer if you won't go Mac. So the choice is yours. It's a tough choice I can see. It's not what one might call a "fair" choice. "Change your computer platform and buy a new computer - or - stay on the PC and get and learn a new sequencer - or - stay using Logic on your PC as is...up to 5.2"
What I want to hear is what the Logic PC users are deciding to do. We ALL know that every single Logic PC user is unhappy about it. But, it would be interesting to hear from Logic PC users to see what is more important to them? Staying on PC or staying with what they know- Logic? It's like a test isn't it? (I never did like tests...)
[ 06 July 2002, 11:57: Message edited by: Squids ]
Posted: 5th July 2002 19:11
quote:How do you figure? I doubt my gradmother with her iMac is really gonna give a shit about having Logic on here computer. That's just a hypothetical example, but really, what percentage of Mac users cae about having a sequencer on their computer?
Posted: 5th July 2002 19:20
quote:I think if I were a paid LAW user and they just gave a free copy to everyone that wanted it I'd be pretty pissed. Why should they get it for free when you had to pay for it?
Actually, I'd be pretty pissed as a Mac user too.
Logic is as powerful a sequencer as you can get now regardless of any future updates. Hey, can I have a free Pro Tools MIX system please, c'mon Digi, HD is out, you aren't maiking those old things anymore.
Posted: 5th July 2002 19:31
quote:Umm. I meant if they already owned Logic 5.0 already. You don't think a free upgrade to 5.2 that has bug fixes and is the final version is fair? I wasn't saying they should give it away to anyone. This program costs what? $900?
Just to be clear.
Posted: 5th July 2002 19:55
Just FYI -
Logic 5.2 IS a free upgrade for all 5.0 users, mac OR PC. It wouldn't be free for 4.81 users or previous.
I think that what the guys was referring to (that I was mocking) was the idea that since Logic won't be SOLD to PC people anymore, that it should be FREE for anyone who wants it.
And my standard disclaimer: I DO sympathize with PC users.
Posted: 5th July 2002 21:23
If you think about it why not make a very attractive price to remaining Windows stock and reward loyal customers, e.g. those who've followed the Logic upgrade path on the Windows side.
If I'm cutting 35% of my customers and discontinuing sales to them what is the harm in giving them some added value as a "sorry it came to this" kind of thank you.
Were PC users money any less valuable as Logic tried to build it's now sold company?
In a year or two PC version CDs are $599 coasters to the technology driven market Logic dropped. Goodwill and a mailing list could make a powerful incentive to go Mac.
Mature companies do not build up overnight so that argument doesn't wash. Sure, something will eventually take Emagic's place but the sad thing is Apple is getting a ton of free publicity, it doesn't matter whether it's good or bad. They got their name into the areas they want to rule.
I think this was part of the plan as it is cynical and too simple to miss as the reaction to the Apple/Emagic deal. Does anyone think Apple gives a rip about typical Windows users? Their television ads are aimed at computer phobics. THey want to indoctrinate the computer illiterate and hope to muscle their way into the studio DAW world.
I'll be interested following this situation as to how many Mac users will be able to afford the DAW system they are speculating on. Will there be VST support? Will OSX create the need for new hardware? It doesn't end at the software, not even for Mac users.
Posted: 6th July 2002 00:18
quote:Hmmm, I'm not sure what anyone was talking about now.
Is anyone else as sick of this topic already as I am? If I read another post that begins with "I think" I think I may just...well I don't know, but it won't be good. Nobody knows what the future holds and spreading a bunch of speculative non-facts is a waste of time and does nothing good for anyone.
Posted: 6th July 2002 21:00
I think you're right.
Posted: 7th July 2002 02:45
As a Windows Logic Gold user, I'm still stuck with version 4.8 which still doesn't have multiple outs for VSTi's. I'm still really looking forward to version 5, despite Emagic/Apple's recent bombshell. I was, and still am very disappointed by the decision not to continue with Windows versions, but the product I currently have is still an excellent one, and I will continue to use it. With version 5, I will have pretty much everything I need for the time being.
I will however be monitoring the situation with crossgrades, because unlike most hardware products, people buy software because of the promise of upgrades (not to mention the fact that a lot of software is often bug-ridden). Also, it is a different situation in that software is designed to be used alongside VSTi's, Powercore/UAD and other software (not to mention the OS), and if down the track I want to acquire some fantastic VSTi that only runs on that latest Windows OS or whatever, I will have no choice but to change to a Mac or change my sequencer.
My PIII 450mhz is getting a bit long in the tooth and slightly limiting so a hardware upgrade is already in the back of my mind. At some point I'm going to have to make a decision as to whether I should go Mac, stay with Logic on Windows with no more new features or upgrades, or cross over to Cubase SX (which I like the look of better than Sonar as it seems more Logic-al).
While I don't expect free Logic instruments like some people have demanded, a free upgrade to Vers. 5 would be a nice gesture and make me more likely to stick with Logic and buy a Mac when upgrade time comes.
Sorry for the long post, but I've been thinking about this a lot over the last few days.
Posted: 7th July 2002 05:12
quote:I already have a Mac and I already have Logic, so where's my free stuff? Surely if they give free upgrades or instruments to Windows users for NOT switching to Mac, then Apple/Emagic are going to give me something for already being a loyal customer and as a nice thank you gesture for me NOT switching to PC and some other sequencer? I understand that LAW users have been dealt a bad hand and it stinks but frankly I'm getting sick of hearing LAW users saying that they deserve to get free stuff because of it. You have what you've paid for, and I have what I've paid for, why do you deserve more? Think of the people that have already bought upgrades or instruments, do you think they would be happy about people getting free upgrades because they happened to wait longer (or had to wait longer in the case of Gold)? Don't they by the same kind gesture deserve a refund for them all? I remember when Line 6 put out version 2 of POD, they offered a free upgrade to version one users who had bought their POD within the last few months or so, but made all of us who had already had a POD for longer, the ones who had been supporting it and Line 6 for far longer, buy our upgrades. I felt screwed but I never got anything free from Line 6, and so not only is did my version 1 POD become worth less becasue I never paid $60 for the upgrade, but it's now worth even less becasue they dropped the prices on POD 2 by something like $100.
I don't want to sound uncaring but business happens, deal with it.
Posted: 7th July 2002 06:00
You are right in general, but here is a counter argument. PC logic users, if they decide to stay loyal to emagic, need to buy a new computer (well more than the price of a logic upgrade), or a crossgrade price to a new sequencer (in fact more if they decide to stick with logic as some definitely will). Either way, they end up paying more than that had ever anticipated. Unfortunately, you are right in that this was a business decision, so people have to figure out the best way to deal with it.
Posted: 7th July 2002 16:46
quote:I don't think I missed your point and I wasn't necesasrily responding to you specifically, in fact yours was one of the more rational and realistic posts from a LAW user I've seen about this whole thing. I'm just venting becasue I'm getting sick of all those who are saying they deserve this and that.
My point is, I'm already a loyal Apple.emagic customer. I already support them, unlike those 70,000 Windows users who are only even considering a Mac because they HAVE to, and let's face it, the amount of them who are even considering switching is miniscule at best. If they should get an incentive for being what i already am, then why don't i get a thank you for already being it.
I guess it would just be sour grapes if that did happen, not that I think it will. If you want to keep using Logic past the next upgrade or so then you'll have to switch to mac. You know it and Apple knows it. Seems like the good business move would be to give LAW users nothing. Really, is a $150 upgrade going to be the deciding factor of whether or not you switch to Mac? Somehow I doubt it is. Buy a Mac and you usually get a free printer or some free RAM, take it and be grateful and thank the lord that you'll still get to use Logic for a long time (knock on wood)
Posted: 7th July 2002 19:23
Actually I think it will be good for both comapanies. Apple gets a MacOSX native version of Logic which helps them in the pro audio area and becomes part of thier digital hub. Emagic gets Apples blessing and programmers to help them exploit all MacOSX has to offer and the majority of the user base gets a better product.
Hey Apple, how about buying fruityloops?
Posted: 7th July 2002 21:57
Daniel, I think you missed my point. I am happy with the product I bought and I don't feel that I 'deserve' a free upgrade. But if Emagic/Apple want some of the estimated 70,000 PC users to come over to Macs, I think it does make business sense to give PC users some incentive to do so. The cost of a free upgrade is pretty minimal compared with the cost of a new Mac.
Posted: 8th July 2002 01:08
quote:I really have a hard time imagining a verion of Logic like Logic Fun for OSX becoming part of Apple's Digital Hub. Anyone can listen to music (itunes), take pictures (iphoto), shoot video (imovie), and burn DVD's (iDVD). Give the average Mac user a sequencer and what the hell are they going to do with it? Of the Mac users that are musicians that don't buy Logic or Cubase or whichever how many are really going to want some cheezy stipped down sequencer?
Posted: 8th July 2002 11:43
quote:When I look at one of the sequencer programs of today, they could surely use Apple's touch to become a bit more approachable than they are. Why does making music have to be so much harder than editing photographs, for example? I've used Photoshop and Logic Audio on a regular basis for years, and Photoshop is bloody easy compared to Logic.
You say 'anyone can take pictures or shoot video', well, I say 'anyone can make music' as well - nobody's trying to say everyone can take good pictures, shoot good videos or make good music - it's all about the possibility of creating pics, video or music existing at all, if desired.
Posted: 8th July 2002 14:32
Well, I should have said something more akin to their high end hub, like Final Cut Pro and Cinema Tools add logic to this and you have some killer tools for video and audio.
I use windows as well, I am posting this on my WinXp Pro box but I see nothing wrong with what Apple did. Microsoft has done the same thing in the past and I am sure will do it again in the future. Halo was just about ready to ship for the Mac and the Microsoft bought Bungie and now it is on the Xbox, with no mac version. Other companies have purchased other companies and withdrew Mac support. Some have came back to the Mac some have not. With the lack of high-end audio tools for MacOSX at the moment it was good thinking on Apples part.
[ 08 July 2002, 17:33: Message edited by: rspress ]
Posted: 8th July 2002 17:59
QUOTE]Originally posted by SonicIV:
Buy a Mac and you usually get a free printer or some free RAM, take it and be grateful and thank the lord that you'll still get to use Logic for a long time (knock on wood)
This is an opinion of a person who completely failed to connect with anyones feeling about this.
To make the current events a little more vivid for you, i'll present you the following scenario:
Steinberg buys Emagic and Logic Audio with the sole purpose of disbanding it to eliminate competition. This happens right after you pay the upgrade price for the new version and a brand new controller from them.
I wonder how you are going to feel about it. Oh i forget - it's probably really easy to claim that "hypothetically" you going to be cool about it, accept is a fact of life. "Hypothetically".
Posted: 8th July 2002 19:52
another Apple/Emagic thread in here
Posted: 8th July 2002 21:32
quote:This is an opinion of a person who completely failed to connect with anyones feeling about this.
When did I ever say that I would be cool with it? I would be pretty upset I'm sure, and I've said many times if you'd bother to read those words, that I understand and sympathize with LAW users anger, but I really don't think I'd believe I should get free upgrades or plugins becasue of it. You're right it's hard to know what I'd really feel if the shoe were on the other foot, but what do you want me to do about it? I still don't think it would be fair to Mac users, regardless of the unfair situation LAW users are in, to give LAW users freebies as compensation. Nothing has been taken from you. You still have Logic and it's still an awesome program at soon to be 5.2. Sorry, if I seem to be uncaring, I'm really not, but take your own advice and try looking at it from my point of view as well.
[ 09 July 2002, 00:55: Message edited by: SonicVI ]
Posted: 8th July 2002 21:46
quote:Yeah, sure it takes talent to shoot/edit good photos or video, I wasn't implying that it doesn't. But, I don't know anybody who can't use a camera. I do know lots of people who can't play an instrument even badly, and probably couldn't even use loops creatively either (no, there's nothing wrong with loops). A sequencer is a much more user specific program than a digital photo album and I just doubt that it's something that the average non-musician Mac user is going to get excited about. I'm not saying that it would be bad for it to be a part of the Digihub, I just don't think it will be.