KVR :: DSP and Plug-in Development » README - For non-programmers with great ideas [View Original Topic]
There are 39 posts in this topic.

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Rock Hardbuns - Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:32 am

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Once every month or so, some unsuspecting person comes into the forums to find a programmer. Sometimes they are willing to pay up front, sometimes it's "you implement my idea and I'll sell it and we'll split the take". Sometimes they don't want to pay at all.

These posts often end up being ignored, or responded to with insults and bad sarcastic puns (in keeping with KvR tradition).

Here are a few reasons why:

* Your idea might not be as great as you think it is. A programmer will sometimes go through hundreds of different ideas and models during the design and implementation of a plugin. Most end up discarded. The reason a lot of synths and effects are similar in their essential nature is not for lack of imagination or creativity on the programmers part. It's because the boundary between what works and what doesn't is very sharp, and countless variations of the stuff that works tend to appear rather quickly once a new design or algorithm has been discovered.

* Your idea is probably not as easy to implement as you think it is. Programming time tends to grow exponentially with the complexity of the design. A very simple synth can be made in an evening. A synth with intelligent voice stealing and pitch modulation and so forth takes two weeks. (These time frames are hypothetical examples.) Even experienced programmers often have serious difficulty estimating the complexity of a project. If you think you know how easy or hard your idea is to implement, you are likely to be wrong.

* Even if your idea is as great as you think, you must do a sales pitch. Put your idea on the table and don't be offended if the response is dismissive. We can group the developers that hang out here into two rough categories: those who do it for their own amusement and those who do it for a living. The amateurs will typically have their heads full with their own great ideas, and the pros probably have their hands full, hunting obscure bugs. So you need to catch someone between projects and convince them that your idea is better than whatever they might have brewing in the back of their minds.

* ... or, if you don't want be specific about the idea, be specific about what you are willing to pay and how. Realize that any kind of custom written software is likely to become expensive. Who you are and where you are is also good to know. You could be 12 years old as far as the reader knows. And freelance work can be complicated even in the best of circumstances.

To put it all a bit differently: Programming is hard work, and programmers need motivation. If you want them to be motivated by the idea, you have sell the idea. If you want to motivate them with money, tell them about the money, and give them a reason to trust that you actually have it.

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kenn - Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:20 am

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Considering how much some people rag on the developers of free VSTs, what you're asking may well be impossible. This IS kvr...

About 10 years back, when I was supporting a software product, the head of development for this product (who was a Ph.D and semi-famous) used to collect all the wierd and wonderful requests for product enhancements he received. Invariably, people would assume that their idea would be easy to implement because it was just a "simple matter of programming". He abbreviated this to "SMOP".

Every trade show there would be some useful feedback, and a whole pile of SMOPs.

Programming is hard (but fun). I make a living doing web back-end programming, but I have HUGE respect for the folks here who produce the apps and VSTs and VSTi's, so many of which are brilliant, yet they sell them for next to nothing, or give them away. Respect, y'all.

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Benedict - Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:12 pm

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Aah but it is easy

I sell web sites and we do a lot of database things. Customers say well it is only another box or two on a page, why are you asking $1000 for it?

Tip of the iceberg!

I am an SE developer so no C++ yet but I agree fully that a sales pitch must be made. I have build custom things for people but I have to say I have never benefited to the extent that the idea man suggested.

I will still listen to a good sales pitch though - and lose interest when things become undercooked and sketchy and I'm about to be left with an ugly baby.

Keep em coming

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fgauer - Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:52 pm

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...programmer for over 22+ years here. And yes, it is very hard work. But ideas are necessary to get momentum going and a project fueled. That's what it's all about.

I don't mind reading any ideas at all. Some can be very far-fetched - yes. But you can't really find out unless you get some feedback and a seasoned/good programmer can compassionatey and considerately tell you if what you are proposing is within the realm of possibility (in terms of functionality and resources) or if you need to move and get a little more realistic.

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Rock Hardbuns - Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:06 am

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Sure. As long as the idea is actually presented and the asker can handle dismissive responses (or none at all).

This thread was created in response to a series of requests for programmers, where the posters had very unrealistic expectations and became sort of abusive when that was pointed out.
That particular trend seems to have died out since.

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haydxn - Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:43 am

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Indeed! The template for such threads would frequently be:

THEM: "I've got a great idea for a plugin! I need a programmer to develop it!"
US: "What is the idea?"
THEM: ".. well I can't say til I know you're going to do it, someone might steal it"

Fair enough if someone wants to keep it a little 'hush hush' but you've got to at least present a few clues as to what it's about - a programmer needs enthusiasm to chase a project! It's most likely that if someone did make the effort to PM the author, they'd probably get halfway through reading the reply and decide that they'd already wasted enough of their time...

If it's SO good an idea that it needs to be kept under wraps, make sure you've developed a spec for it as far as you possibly can. It's a lot easier to get a working implementation/prototype put together if there's a well structured abstract to build upon.

But, generally, just bung your ideas out. if it's that good, people will want to do it - and if it's just something you want to use, there's a chance someone will find it interesting enough to just knock it together for free [i know i've done it loads of times - although they're usually pretty simple ones!]

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aciddose - Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:02 am

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"Customers say well it is only another box or two on a page, why are you asking $1000 for it?"

your house is just a box with a door on it, why are you asking $300,000 for it?

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Benedict - Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:42 pm

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That would be more like $650,000 but I don't own it. The little Italian man next door would be mighty annoyed if I sold his son't house.

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halfpower - Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:39 am

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Also computers and VSTs haven't been around all that long. A lot of the programming going on here is either cutting edge, or something fairly close to it. If musician or producer is requesting some funky new piece of software, then the programming is apt to be, not on the cutting edge, but the bleeding edge. While there are some very talented VST programmers on this forum, I would say that very few of us have really everything, as the technology involved in cross-disciplinary.

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dacaumodo - Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:08 am

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So I guess no one's ever gonna make me this pedal steel guitar emulation VSTi, right?

Oh well....


{Rides towards the sunset]

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griels - Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:53 pm

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pHz's sig springs to mind...

"What is now proved was once only imagined."

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jwatte - Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:13 pm

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[mod edit: The Market Place forum is where to put your advertisement, not a sticky informational topic in the DSP forum. Feel free to re-post your offer there.]

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Milesy - Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:39 am

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I feel this pain... I do freelance e-commerce stuff and people dont realise that this small change from the outside may look small but requires two days of coding to do properly, and write effective tests for the code.

grr

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james0tucson - Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:28 pm

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Because almost any day of the year you can soak in the pool, and look up and see snow capped mountains in 3 directions. That has a price

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Stupid American Pig - Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:48 pm

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Every developer I know never has a shortage of ideas brewing. I think that most of the ideas posted here could likely get finished more quickly if the OP spent a month learning how to code.(thus learning how much is really involved) Almost every "simple" project I have ever worked on has had at least one hurdle that made things take longer than "planned". Furthermore, it's pretty easy to be comfortably middle class if you write code for a living, so a starving artist with an idea will not likely get much attention even if they offer to pay.

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deraudrl - Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:32 pm

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<grumpy-old-man-level=11>
The only thing that makes it "cutting edge" is being able to do it in real time on a $750 computer you bought at WalMart.
<grumpy-old-man-level=0>

Sorry. I keep having flashbacks about programming DSP algorithms on megabuck mil-spec array processors back when I was young, had hair, and 10MHz was considered "fast".

A studio full of synthesizers on your desktop may be a relatively new thing, but computers and the DSP algorithms that make up VSTs have been around for decades...that's centuries in "programmer years".

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seagerash7 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:02 am

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Completely understandable that entrepreneurs and people with ideas spamming recklessly on forums is a nuisance to those not looking for projects - don't you think its time KVR had a forum connecting non- developers with ideas WITH developers? As I'm sure not all developers are as narrow minded and averse to new ideas as this thread makes out! Would network developers looking for plug-in projects and ideas-people looking for developers - and would solve the problem of spam on unrelated threads for those who don't care for innovation :)

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xaqmusic - Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:20 pm

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I do agree with this. How about those of us who have created something worthwhile in Synthedit or some other GUI development platform who would like to take it to the next level? Maybe some guidelines from you real programmers out there to help those who are serious get their prototypes in gear would be helpful. Thanks!

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thankyou - Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:59 am

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I am not a software engineer, but maybe there are some who come to KVR. My idea is to translate vsti's into hardware circuits, and move the music industry back to vinyl again... in the name of saving the music industry. Software engineers are vital "imagineers" (to borrow from Disney) and they deserve real jobs with real money. Hardware doesn't get pirated as easy as a pile of numbers. This is where the love is about my intentions.

I definitely think vinyl was "made for" the human ear and I hope that such a movement would begin and do away with digital audio as an 'end' in itself. vinyl is proven so far to last longer than any hard drive or cd. they take up more space, but nobody i know has paid for every last terabyte of audio they 'own'.

I do think that even turntables can benefit from the way software and developers have evolved together. i do think that software is a great thing, but not as a 'destination' since it does not exist in the same dimension that people and earth do. I know some of this sounds like metaphysical reasons for the drive back to hardware, but I hope there are others who can see that what is currently happening is a kind of redundant virtualization of life into cyberspace.

"where we're going we dont need... roads"

I have explored cyberspace and it is awesome. I have also explored hyperspace and I have decided that earth is a worthwhile place to work on, and we need to give it and each other some IRL TLC.

So by trying to initiate the move from software to hardware, I am not in this for the hope of monetary gain, I am instead putting energy into saving the music industry and giving software engineers a fighting chance in the battle against piracy.

I was directed to this thread by the mods due to the relevancy of my having an unpopular idea.

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Meffy - Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:02 am

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No, you were directed to this thread as a hint that you should stop speculating and/or trolling and get to work on your own idea (if you're sincere and not just trying to yank people's chains; whether you follow up on your ideas will serve as evidence of which). Not so you could continue the argument here. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume a third hint won't be necessary.

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trimph1 - Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:12 am

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I'd be tempted to even get involved if this was the case as well---a kind of mentoring as it were would be the ideal case

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dodothedreamer - Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:41 pm

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Hello,
I am new to this forum, and I was about to suggest something similar when I saw this thread.
I am a programmer, wrote a few VST plugins, and sometimes I have good ideas but I don't have the time to work on them. I was thinking that instead of just saving the ideas, sometimes for years, until I will have the time, I would instead tell the community about them, and developers can use the ideas for free or commercial products.

My suggestion is a sub forum for public domain ideas.
Each idea can be in a thread, and developers can check them out. If they decide to implement an idea, they would be encouraged, though not obliged, to post updates in the thread about the plugin they are making, and to credit the original poster, and any other members that contributed useful suggestions in the thread.

What do you think?

Oded.

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antto - Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:33 am

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sounds like a WikIdea ;P~

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doctornash - Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:40 am

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In audio DSP, I haven't often come across the media stereotype of one fellow being the one with the great ideas and business nous and the other the number cruncher and techie who does his bidding and makes those great ideas blossom into wondrous reality. I rarely witness someone fronting up with a 'light-bulb moment' of revolutionary significance; or an idea that results in a jaw-dropping step-change. What I do see though, is the journey I've been on myself: pick something, try it, analyze it, emulate it, learn some theory, make changes based on the theory and see what happens, make some semi-random or trial-and-error changes and see what happens, rinse, lather and repeat. As you iterate through, you progressively get a feel for what works and what doesn't, and you may well end up going in a different direction than you anticipated. The outcome of all this could be a worthwhile result that's somehow useable...

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mztk - Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:35 am

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which is something you do very much more quickly in synthedit than
when obeying syntax rules and trying not to f*** up something that
is not very intuitive (unless your brain is trained in that strange way).

synthedit, which appears to get dissed a bit by some coders, is such an
elegant creative environment that you wonder why all software programming
has not evolved in this way.

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elijahlucian - Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:23 am

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maybe this thread could be used for developers that are open to being approached by "ideas-men"

or have a sticky thread where devs can post that they are up for it.

seems like developers are more interested in posting their own projects (which is cool) and get "artist syndrome" when they hear of somebody else that might have a good idea. ("your idea can't possibly be more groundbreaking than mine! I am GOD!!!!" etc etc)

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antto - Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:31 am

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i'd say..
pondering about ideas happens in no time..
bringing an idea to real life can take years..

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aciddose - Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:39 am

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the reason synth-edit is shunned by coders is because the "glue code" and things like user interface and so on make up a huge percentage of the effort. maybe something like 90% or more.

the "idea" part of the code is usually extremely minor.

that's assuming your "idea" is already tested and works perfectly in synth-edit.

now the problems really start - when your idea breaks down in certain corner cases or isn't up to par with expectations for quality. when it works but is extremely inefficient in terms of processing. when it's possible to approximate the idea in synth-edit, but you haven't actually built something that works. (for example, you have a guitar sound, but it isn't in tune.)

working through these sorts of problems makes up 90% of the implementation of the "idea" when they occur. there is a saying in programming, "after the first 90% comes the second". also the idea of "bug-free software" is laughed at hysterically.

if synth-edit were capable of producing the product, you would have already produced it.

here is a very important tip:

if you have an idea, you need a prototype before you approach a programmer. it should include a working plugin with all the features you want, a gui layout even if rough, and practical expectations for getting exactly what your prototype contains. (not i want "this", except with ++ and these other features.)

you don't absolutely have to build a functional prototype if your idea includes a unique combination of existing elements. for example a synthesizer where waveforms, envelopes, lfos are all drawable.

if you don't have a prototype you are far more likely to be laughed at when the coder knows about a flaw in your design that you haven't tested yet because you didn't bother to prototype it.

it may seem pessimistic but when you think in terms of "this idea is better than anything else" you're assuming you're smarter and better at this than everyone else. why hasn't anyone else thought of this? are you a special sort of genius with ten times the brain power? are you extremely lucky? what are the odds of this being true?

let me tell you: generally not too good.

another thing that pisses coders off: this line of thinking usually leads "idea people" to keep their ideas secret and only expose the fact they have an idea and how great it is, but none of the details.

here is a quote that applies perfectly:

"you need not keep your ideas secret. if you have a really good idea you'll find that you have to shove it down people's throats."

so if you really believe it is good, prototype it, work on it, develop it and make it evolve and keep shoving it down people's throats. they'll either gag, or perhaps somebody will finally listen to it. that is up to you. don't be upset at people when they reject you at first. there is effort involved and you can't expect not to have to put any in.

if you've read my entire post you qualify. send me a message or email and we can discuss your idea.

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elijahlucian - Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:16 am

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one question. how exactly am i supposed to make a working version of the plugin if I have no idea how to code?

I am all about making a working prototype. but how do i go about that exactly?

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aciddose - Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:23 am

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you should download something like synth-edit, or sync-modular.

these are both free (synth-edit only a demo). i would recommend sync-modular but synth-edit is praised often around here.

learn how to assemble modules and put your idea together, assuming it's related to audio or event processing in some way.

if your idea is more like a gui feature, get a tool for drawing and create an example of how you want the gui element to work.

arts-acoustic reverb was produced first in synth-edit by what i've heard. i've seen the source code for it and i assure you, even with a prototype that would take quite some time to implement just the audio parts. the gui and presets and so on would take even longer.

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VitaminD - Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:24 am

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Right. If I can create a VST prototype, I can keep going and finish the product.

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antto - Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:24 am

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as aciddose said, that's the 90% part ;]
otherwise it may NOT work

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aciddose - Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:26 am

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yes, then do so

there is a huge market of synth-edit plugins for sale.

if you just wanted to have the programmer do all the design and implementation you're going to have to settle for something like 99% of the profits to the programmer, assuming they would even want to touch the idea.

as i said if you can think of existing things to assemble to create your plugin, you don't need a prototype. if you can however, why not use sync-modular and quickly assemble these parts to test them? it takes very little effort and costs you nothing.

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elijahlucian - Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:29 am

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my idea is not an idea for a synth. or an effect. it is an arpeggiator.

how exactly do i do that in sync-modular?

not to mention that the guy's website is not even working...

I am a graphic designer, so I can develop GUI / website / videos and all marketing to go into this plugin

I will pay up front if the programmer does not want to "split profits" at the end... however I feel most programmers are like musicians in that sense: they want to own their own work.

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VitaminD - Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:33 am

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That is telling the songwriter who came up with the idea, sorry you get 1% because you only came up with the song. The performer is getting 99%.

If the song writer (idea maker) could play the instruments (code audio software), they would just write the song, play the instruments and collect 100%.

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aciddose - Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:35 am

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i can also charge a rate of something like $60-120 per hour depending on what the demands are. we could also agree upon a contract value with a non-refundable down-payment in advance something like 15%.

i've written complete arpeggiators from scratch.

my guess for cost would be about 10k for this project. i wouldn't accept it unless for-hire because i don't see the product being profitable. not including graphical work - you'll also need to hire an artist or do it yourself.

negotiable if you want to license pre-existing libraries.

your idea must be nuclear if you expect it to compete with the free arps already available.

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elijahlucian - Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:37 am

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can i see these arpeggiators you've developed?

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aciddose - Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:41 am

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no. i wrote the arpeggiator for vanguard2 which was a significant extension of the features included in nexus2. it had extra capability that was not finished because the project was cancelled.

i also have several limited-feature arps implemented in various places that wouldn't interest you as all you could see would be the source, not a complete plugin.

i have an arp i plan to include in my commercial effects package which is currently WIP unreleased. yours would probably be a derivative from the existing code at first which i why i estimated only 10k, not 30k or more.

see my webpage link in sig and the effects section for a very old alpha implementation.

if you want to discuss more, let's go into private and we can post back here about how the idea works out - as an example to would-be idea people to learn from.

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elijahlucian - Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:50 am

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sure. well i checked that alpha. and it's just a u/d arpeggiator.. not even close to what I'm talking about.

Also I couldnt get it to send midi out to anything in sonar.

nexus 2's arp is also not the same direction that I wanted to go.

in fact. there is not a single piece of software out there that does what I want in this case.

it's ok I will keep looking around to see if I can find somebody with a portfolio they can show me

thanks anyways. in the meantime I will just try something in synthedit and see if i can get close to a prototype.

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There are 39 posts in this topic.