KVR :: Modular Synthesis » Yet another VCS3 clone (free) [View Original Topic]
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ninecows - Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:17 am

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Hi there

Update (May 18th): It is done! Go to the addres below for the latest version, including a nice collection of patches:

http://www.ninecows.dk/cynthia

(I updated links and screenshot below as well)


EDIT (february 27th): As requested the zip-file now contains a large and small-sized edition so you can choose the one that fits your screen best. The small is without presets so far.

I made a complete update of this one (originally presented in this thread: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=204307) and its now free for download.

I know there's plenty of other VCS3 clones out there - some free, some not. I found the free ones lacking functions of the original or being very cpu-hungry, so I made my own It satisfies my needs and it was fun making, but its propably not better than the rest - I'll let you be the judge of that It should hold all the possibilities of the original and in addition to that a delay module, portamento, a tuner and seperate routing of midi pitch, gate and velocity. And the pins for the matrix can work as inverters

Its made with SynthEdit (so it has the multi-core bug) and is classified as a VST and NOT a VSTi. In Reaper it still takes a MIDI input nicely though.
And... compared to the rest its pretty large - it takes up most of the screen, but I chose that in order to make the graphics better, so you can see what you're doing...

Screenshot:


Download:
http://www.ninecows.dk/cynthia/cynthia.zip

Just extract the zip-file to your vst-folder and you can load in the host. There's also a manual.

Have fun with it and please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements

I'm off to make a clone of the sequencer that's supposed to be in the other half of the suitcase

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ThunderDrums - Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:24 pm

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I love thesynth concept of the original and having many emmulations doesn't huirt. I'll give it a try and get back to you

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Scot Solida - Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:54 pm

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Oooh, cool, I'll be checking that out. Though, ahem, that's not a Putney. This is a Putney:




What you have got is a "Portabella":




Pretty much the same circuitry, though the Synthi AKS had the 256 sequencer heard on Pink Floyd's "On the Run", and the touch membrane keyboard. The Putney could be attached to the DK2 duophonic keyboard (which was velocity sensitive). Other than that, the circuitry is the same.

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shanecgriffo - Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:08 pm

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ummm, why does it only load as a vst and not an instrument??? (in live)

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ninecows - Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:20 am

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Well its a choise from my side. I had trouble making the audioinputs work when it was classified as a synth, so I made it an effect instead. Can you get it to accept a midi in and work as a synth anyway? It works fine in Reaper here, but I suspect this to be host dependent...

And yeah... I know that the Putney was the woodenbox thing... I just liked that name better Hopefully the guys producing the real hardware synths now wont send their lawyers after me for cloning the name and design... Otherwise I'll have to rename it to... well... the cuteney?

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Scot Solida - Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:33 am

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[quote="ninecows"]

The names were chosen after the area where the units were made. My favorite was the nickname of the keyboard: The Cricklewood (which had a built-in oscillator, by the way, making the Putney a four-osc machine if it was attached).

I love 'em. The manual for my own VCS3 says "Putney" on the cover (all of the North American manuals called it that).

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S-N-S - Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:08 am

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cool i will try this out in reaper

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shanecgriffo - Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:32 pm

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hey i didnt say that !! it wasnt me!
i can get it working in live, yeah , just got to route another midi track to it! cool, thanks.

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Rangtangtang - Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:39 pm

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Just tried it in Tracktion 3 and looks and sounds very nice.

But, the GUI seems to be too big for the screen and I cannot see the bottom of it. That is, the bottom 4 output knobs, the bottom grid row and the joystick? I cannot get to.





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Locus M - Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:00 pm

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Yes, the screen is too big! Waaah it looks so nice, me want me want! Any Hope?

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gnu23 - Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:33 pm

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To overcome the GUI size issue I just increased my screen resolution. The presets are definitely a good start. I admit having a lot to learn about programming the beastie.

Keep up the good work, nine.

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dreaddd - Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:04 am

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thx for the update, 9cows
Peace

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Locus M - Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:31 am

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Thanks , but unfortunately my screen only goes as far as 1024 x 768. What a pity for me cause it sounds just as good as it looks as far I as can hear from the presets!

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gnu23 - Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:40 am

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Dang.

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velkrosmaak - Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:12 am

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Sounds nice, I've never really seen a VST version of this synth. So... thanks!

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ninecows - Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:14 pm

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Thanks for all the nice words

When I get time I'll make a "low" screen resolution edition. My own is 1280x1024 so I didn't get this problem. To be honest I didn't even think of it. Sorry...

Hope to have a smaller edition ready soon, but cant make any promises. What would you say should be the maximum size in pixels?

Best regards,
Ninecows

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Locus M - Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:32 pm

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I'll be holding my breath. No promises I know, but I would be gratefull beyond words of this world if you make such a version.

However, if you do, I'll make you some patches to show my respect and gratitude, and that is a promise!

Now about the size: Just anything that fits into a 1024 x 768 resolution. However it would be nice if it only takes up about half or two thirds of the screen cause I usually make music on the run on my laptop and therefore I need the left side of my screen to play it from the pianoroll window in sonar. Some synth takes up so much space,(e.i. Predator) that I can't play the pianoroll without putting half of the synth out of sight.

Best Regards

And again: congrats on the synth, its a winner for sure!

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ninecows - Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:43 pm

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I'm pleased to say that I'm pretty close to a small version sized 588x524 pixels. I only need to move every one of the 256 pins of the matrix

The labels are pretty hard to read, but I'll "ship" it with the original large one for references and once you get used to where everything is its ok I think.

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Locus M - Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:41 am

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I'm pleased to say that I'm pretty close to a small version sized 588x524 pixels. I only need to move every one of the 256 pins of the matrix

The labels are pretty hard to read, but I'll "ship" it with the original large one for references and once you get used to where everything is its ok I think.[/quote]



...sound like sweet music to my ears already...I am going to eat this thing...

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ninecows - Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:01 am

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Done! Download the zip-file again and you'll find that it contains a large and small version (with different ID's of course). Hope it fits your screen

All the matrix patches got screewed up in the small one, so you'll have to make some yourself (but you promised that anyway so )

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HunterKiller - Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:22 am

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Amazing the first synth not to be seen by both Chainer and Nuendo, too bad was really looking forward to trying it.

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ninecows - Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:31 am

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Did you look for it under effects/VST's and not under instruments/VSTi's in your host? It's classified as a VST because of the audio inputs, but works fine as a synth in Reaper and apparently other hosts as well.

Otherwise please let me know. I can always make a build classified as a synth, but with the audio inputs disabled

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Locus M - Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:13 am

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You are a freeware angel! Thank you so very much. The GUI is perfect, just perfect. I just thought that there was something entirely wrong until I noticed your remark about the patches. Patches said nothing and I was wondering if I dared to tell U.

Well, A promise is a promise,...now I just have to find that #@%¤ "On" bottom....hmm lets start by connecting an osc to an output....

..eeh..this is going to take a while it seems so have patience with me, please....


Thank you so very much for your efforts once again!

Best Regards

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HunterKiller - Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:33 am

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Hmm, now I've moved it for a rescan, and it's there. Bizzare. Thanks ninecows.

Damn the gui is large, are you trying to compete with PolyAna or somethin', cause it takes the crown easily

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Rangtangtang - Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:47 am

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ahhhhhhh....the GUI size in Tracktion3 is about right now....thanks ninecows




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Hitchcock Bell - Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:08 am

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Looks lovely, but it's only showing up as an effect in Cubase Studio 4. It is not listed in the instrument list, and so cannot be played. Pity. Can you do something about this or advise on a workaround?

Cheers

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Locus M - Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:50 am

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Hi again NineCows!

I have made my first patch (a Jew harp effect) for you and will compile with others to come. I have no place to upload it though, so can I mail you or is there some place here at KVR to upload banks or something?

This synth sounds just great. An amazing piece of work if you ask me. Never tried the real thing, so I couldn't tell whether it is an accurate emulation or not, but it sounds very analogue to me and it seems to be easy (no lets say "possible"- it is a modular beast for sure)to emulate old school sounds on this one if that is what anyone go for.

Just a note: I guess the two version must have different ID's or something, cause you can not transfer a patch from the large edition to the small. Thus, I can only make patches for the small version.


When you are ready to receive wish-lists I would love to see some temposynced modulation on this one so it could be synced to the DAW right on. But thats only for the future. For now, I will sync the machine the old way.

1000 thanks again!

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Rangtangtang - Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:06 am

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Im trying small version and it is a little small I guess. It takes up about 2/3 of screan now.....mmmmm...

Anyway, I tried save the basic synth preset in the big version in Tracktion3 and then load that preset into the small version, but it did not work. I got "some parameters could not be loaded" and then internal error?


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ninecows - Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:08 am

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You're welcome

There's a smaller edition for ya if you download the zip again

I'm using the big one myself (my screen is big enough) as I like to see what I'm doing...

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ninecows - Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:15 am

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Sounds nasty... Perhaps its because of the different ID numbers for the big and small one? When I made the small I also had to recreate the matrix - deleting modules and copy-pasting them. I'm not sure how this patch transfer works, but I guess it expects the same buttons and knobs to be available and if just one of them got a different id from synthedit then...

I used the small moog knobs in SynthEdit for the small one and scaled the rest according to these, so you'll have to do with that - otherwise I'd had to do a weeks work

The next version might just be the small one, but with the option of zooming in or opening each module, magnified, in a new panel... but not for now

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ninecows - Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:28 am

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Don't know about uploading banks to KVR, but just pm me and I'll put them in.


Just do that then - I'll transfer them manually. My reason for making different ID's was that I thought they should have that in order not to conflict There's also this stupid multicore bug in synthedit, causing crashes if you load to copies of the same synth in your host, so I thougt different ID's could work around that.



You're welcome. I considered putting in sync options, but then I thought: No way! The synth is oooold school so you guys just have to sync it by ears Perhaps I'll be nicer in the next version

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ninecows - Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:34 am

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Is there anyway you can route a midi signal from another track to the track with the synth? I would be surpriced if that wasn't possible in Cubase, but then again - haven't used that program since it could handle midi ONLY

Otherwise I've placed a "cubase edition" configured as a VSTi for you here:

http://www.nigo.dk/junk/Putney_CuEd.zip

I definately have to come up with a good solution for this, so it will be classified as a synth, but with the audio in still working. Also because people expect it to be a VSTi when the they download a synth...

So this is my first priority, but can't make any promises about when.

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HunterKiller - Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:00 am

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Yup, yup same here, on a couple of big screens, makes it look as big as the real thing. And like you, a big fan of oldskool subtractive synthesis.

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Locus M - Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:16 am

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[quote="ninecows"]

tsk..tsk..tsk...you evil man...! However, I started in the eighties so I know my way around that rocketscience. As long as the modulators retriggers on note on (that is not running completely free with no possible retriggering), decent sync can be achieved. Haven't tested that yet.

Fine about the patches, I'll pm you!


Best regards!

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Hitchcock Bell - Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:14 pm

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Well, bless YOOOU! I'll try it and get back. Hopefully, it'll be useful for other Cubasers too.

Cheers.

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Hitchcock Bell - Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:08 pm

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The Cubase version works very well, no problems detected yet - saves presets, no crashes, etc. It's a pleasure to use, and it behaves like the real thing. Whether it's an exact clone of the the real Putney/Synthi's oscillators and filters is another, perhaps academic, matter, but it's certainly a capable and worthy emu. Many thanks. Keep up the development, it's worth it.

P.S. It's a pity about the Synthedit problem with multi-cores. I only learned this for a fact today after looking at this thread. Previously, I'd been wondering why the hell multiple instances of my SE synths kept killing Cubase! Now I know.

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dreaddd - Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:36 pm

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swwwwwwwwwwwwwweet
thank u!
i still have to check this one, but really, thanx a lot for your efforts to make the gui size smaller and the version usable for cubasers
much appreciated

Peace out

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brok landers - Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:29 pm

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ninecows, this is awesome! better than any of the other emu's i've tried so far ... not the real thing, but i love it, thanks so much!
now please, get it done so that it will be recognised as a vsti ..... ask some synthedit freaks here, they'll help you i suppose .... thanks again!

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spacedad - Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:56 pm

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this is great,thanks! making narly sounds in XT1 ,it loads real quick too.
the big one just fits at 1440x900 and looks sweet.i've never tried a real one,but it's giving nasty noises my old korgms20 used to be capable of.love it.

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Locus M - Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:41 am

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Hi again NC!

Still on this great synth. As you mention in the manual, though, it has some flaws.

Besides from the sleep mode, the modulators can make some strange modulator hick-ups. That is: If I make a basic synth with "normal" envelopes (a staccatto note) according to the env controls as you describe them in the manual and no mod (OSC -> Filter -> env -> out ) hick-ups that sounds like the modulations is starting to move the sound can occur. Like a square or sometimes saw that modulates the filter and/or the output AMP. A very charming old school analogue feeling arises here for sure! I can live with that...but you might want to check it out for the masses!

And I might need your help on the modulators in general, because I have not been able to judge whether the mods retrigger or not on "note on". Can I make one mod running free, while another is retriggered?

Do not mistake any of this. I'm still in heaven

And to potential customers out there: Be aware that this emulation goes far beyond sound and functionality. It has a steep learning curve and needs care and attention just like the real thing.


Best Regards

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ninecows - Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:09 am

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I'm not sure I'm following you here... You mean like there's a "bleed" of signal from modulators (say the LFO) to something else in the matrix even though the LFO is not routed to anything?
If thats the case its not intended, but makes the synth is much closer to the original, than I thought it would be - the VCS3 was famous for signals bleeding in the matrix. But... I'm not sure I understand you correctly...


The only "mod" that's synced to note on is the envelope shaper/trapezoid. I thought of syncing everything, but as far as I recall nothing was sync'ed in the original. Hmm... perhaps I should throw in a sync-to-note-on row in the matrix? I'll have a look at it, but I'll have to re-do a lot of graphics then.



You're welcome - I'm here too And I'm just happy for all the feedback and comments. I made the synth to fit my needs, but the only way it can fit the "masses" needs is by listening to the masses



Yup - I think the real thing was intended to be just as much a scientist/educational toy as an actual instrument I recommend to read the original manuals for VCS3/Synthi which can be found at http://www.thesynthi.de (they're in english).


I will... the official SE fora are a bit dead and difficult to find your way around, but I'm on the case. Alternatively I can do what Korg did with MS-20 in their Legacy Collection, making a VST and a VSTi edition? What do you guys think?

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ninecows - Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:30 am

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And by the way... Imagine that the EMS making the hardware synths is also trying to sell a 350€ VSTi edition (this one: http://www.kvraudio.com/get/1186.html)

It's propably more pro (but its also made in SE) and is hopefully a better emulation, but still... 350€ for a SE synth?!? I wonder how many they've sold so far

(nothing bad about SE though - its a fantastic program and makes it so easy for nearly everyone to create exactly the synth they want, so while I'm at it: Thanks a lot Jeff )

I will keep my Putney free - don't want all the hazzle with setting up a webshop, having to pay taxes etc, just for squeezing you guys for a few bucks.

Just please credit me if you include the synth (the actual dll-file) in something else or want to do some reverse engineering on it. And dont make money re-selling it.

(and that's the EULA for The Putney - take it and learn MS )

Cheers!

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Locus M - Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:05 am

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Hi again



No I have found out what the problem is: It's the recycle-thing in the envelope section. I did not set OFF to full max so it would recycle the note a way long time after it had faded. Now it is a very peculiar mechanism anyway .If you play a staccatto note with the "Off!- bottom to minimum, the synth will recycle your note, thus creating a LFO amp effect like dum-dum-dum. You can stop this recycle by holding the key down when you hit it (a legato note). So there are actually two solutions to my problem: One is to set off to max , the other is hit the note legato and the recycling will stop. However we have now found a way to emulate the original bleeps you are describing




Now that is a problem in the realms of syncing science. Now completely free modulators were the true hell of such old bastards. If the modulators do not restart their phase on zero with note on, you will not be able to sync it to anything in the DAW manually. The only solution then is to do it the real-real old fashioned way, that is recording the sound for a couple of bars, slice it at the right start and end point and loop it.

However, in theory the envelope recycling should be like "retriggering" because it is just a repetition of the note by a rate that can be determined by the envelope settings. However so far it is only in theory, have not tested it. So that will make two of the "modulators" (recycling is not modulating I know but it sounds like it) retrigger.

Now there is a much more easy and non-violating solution to the problem than to add a row in the matrix. The OSC can be used as modulator. Now make one of them retrigger, say OSC 1 on note on. When you use it as a sound source this will not affect the sound to an audible level. That will only arise if you retrigger two of them in a layered sound, thus creating a "synced" sound were the osc resets to zero no matter where in the phase they are when you hit them. Now that is not a sound we want for this babe for sure. In other words, having 1 osc synced while two other are running free are just about the same as having three free running oscs as far as the sound concerns. Now I would be able to use OSC 1 as a modulator by which I manually can sync my tempo to the DAW. However the tempo settings seems restricted in range when I use OSC 1 (from medium to very fast - no "real slow"), so you might consider making the range of the tempo and the frequency settings two different functions ( I just guess right now that the rate of the tempo when used as a modulator is a linear function of the frequency settings -however I am on thin ice here, for I am indeed no expert I such details).

How I hope this makes sense to you, if not, please ask me!

I am on the 8th patch now, can you hear me singing up here?

Best Regards

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ninecows - Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:47 pm

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So... how about putting a small switch on each OSC that allows you to sync it to the gate-signal (note on)? That way its more up to the user what to sync.

Could also include a small slider/knob to adjust the phase of each OSC between 0 and 180 degrees - just to keep up the scientific and "everything is possible" spirit of the synth?

Should be pretty easy to implement

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Locus M - Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:45 pm

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....now there is this sweet music arising again ....God, I love being in heaven!


Now the switches would indeed be just fine with me, however the phase shift sliders is actually something I have never heard of before, I think you are being innovative now but I do not know or have played every synth on earth of course. You could go for that one but then I would suggest you to get copyrights on the sliders idea or something

Another thing: There is remarks in this thread about EMS emu of Synthi A and I guess you know it. Whether it is more authentic or not I could not say but yours do sound much better and much more like hardware in my hear, the oscs has a fine clean sound with no annoying digital sharpness, crunchiness (aliasing?) and glitches. Processing them in the matrix makes them alive and kicking besides from sounding even better.

Well music is music and I might just be naïve but this one goes far beyond the general level of freeware and could be payware any day. Of course, I do not want that to happen but you might would

Best Regards

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Locus M - Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:24 am

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Ehhh....the EMS remarks was your own post I see! So you know it of course. Forget about it. Too overpriced to make it worth talk about and it doesn't even sound better as I've stated.

I forgot one question in my former post: Will you be able to do something about the tempo range when and if you apply sync functions to the OSCs?


Best Regards

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ninecows - Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:55 am

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The tempo range? Like a sync to host bpm or is it the frequency range of OSC3 you're talking about? I'm not sure I understand you correctly. The frequency range is more or less like the original, with app. 1.5 octave between each number on the outer dial on the frequency knob, while the middle one can fine tune it (perhaps not with 1 cent acuracy, but you can actually get pretty close and a good OSC is always slightly out of tune ).

Anyway, the phase slide is propably not something I can patent - there's a pin on the standard SE OSC called phase mod and by attaching a slider to that I can change the phase between 0 and 180 degrees
For the masses: Each pin in the matrix can also (of course) work as a 180 degree phase change by clicking it twice (turns red). If set to millisecond range, the delay module can also do some phaser trick (though that would be frequency dependent and not very precise).

Well... I have to come up with some nice looking knobs and switches for the phase/sync and then the next version will be out. I'll make the package as a zip with 4 files in: A synth/VSTi + an FX/VST edition in both large and small size each. It'll be up to the end users to put the prefered edition in their VST folder then.

cheers

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Locus M - Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:46 am

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I mean when I use OSC 1 as a modulator the frequency settings controls the tempo of the modulation phase, but is seems restricted in range, thus I can make it modulate in tempi from medium to very fast but no real slow (corresponding to very deep inaudible sub-notes, when used as an OSC). Thus, if the frequency knobs could have a tempo setting-function when used as a modulator which is independent of its tuning function when using the OSC as a soundsource, that would do it! I'm not an expert in the technical terms of this, so sorry if I am hard to catch on this one.

Well a sync to host BMP would indeed makes things a lot easier, but I am trying to be as faithful to your concept of manual syncing as possible and for that I need 1) the phase retriggering and 2) a broad scope of tempo possibilities

The FX version sounds nice to.

I'm going to stick to this thread on a daily basis of course.

Well off we go again...back to the beastie

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Locus M - Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:32 pm

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Hi NC
Got some patches for you. Its compiled in a Zip file. I have PM my mail-adresse. There will be more but this is to show you my gratitude as promised.

Now its all bass stuff and besides from "syntbass 1" and "synthbass 2" it is sequenses which has to be triggered by your favorite bass note (stacatto).
Its basic stuff at this point of course, I need to dig deeper to develope the SEQs further. Head for the "Techno Antique 1 + 2" and "Old Shuffle". Both of them demonstrates what this machine among other things is going to be to me and thus all the sync-talk.

Best regards


PS: When delay is applied, you will have to wait for it to fall into phase. Now thats another sync-issue

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BFunKu - Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:42 pm

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You really need to make this a VSTi rather than a VST. Or is there a VSTi version I missed somewhere? I want to use it as a Synth not as an insert or send effect. The VCS was a Synthesizer you know? Nice Work though!

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ninecows - Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:17 am

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The so-called "cubase edition" posted a while ago (on one of the previous pages of this thread) is the VSTi version... but I didn't write that clearly.

The next days are pretty busy for me, so it will take a couple of days before the next version will hit the forum. That one will include:

- Option to sync-to-note-on and phase-mod the 3 OSC (as requested by Hskovlund)

- A large and small version GUI (but no possibility to transfer patches between them... sorry. Perhaps at another time)

- A VSTi and a VST version: Putney.dll and PutneyFX.dll (the FX version will in some hosts also work perfect as a synth)

- The patches made by Hskovlund (thanks )

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Locus M - Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:09 am

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Hi NineCows
Forget all about this, though I confused you your answer gave me a hint: If I want sloooow phases I can just use OSC 3 as a modulator instead of OSC 1, the first obviously has a broader range (for reasons unknown to me however).

Best Regards

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ninecows - Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:30 am

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Yes... OSC3 should be called a LFO in more modern synth-terms, but I wanted to stay true to the original design an label it as an OSC (just like the filter can also be used as a sine-wave OSC, by turning response to max).

OSC2 and OSC3 are basicly identical except for their frequency range: OSC2 ranges from 0.6 Hz to ~16.8 kHz, while OSC3 ranges from 0.015 Hz to 500 Hz.
So OSC3 is a LFO, but with the extra option to go into a part of the audible range (so you can make some really crazy phasing and ringmod by letting OSC3 control the freq of the other OSC's). Thats something I find very clever about the VCS3/Synthi

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Hitchcock Bell - Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:27 am

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Hi. A quick word about the patchbay graphics.

I'm actually finding it quite tricky to patch modules together on the pin board because, even though the board is very large, my line of sight is not being guided to find the correct pin hole. It's quite easy for the eye to become confused as it traces all those holes to find the correct connection.

If you look at the original synth (and the EMS and Reaktor clones), you'll see that the patchbay routes are subdivided into dark coloured sectors. Apart from anything else, this actually guides the eye when trying to patch a pin.

I would suggest that ninecows looks into this. It's a simple little aspect of the original design, but it works, and it's there for a reason.

Great plugin. Really looking forward to its continued development!

Cheers

BTW Is the reverb working? I'm having some difficulty patching it.

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glokraw - Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:07 pm

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Please contact the Micro$oft Learning Department at Phone number:

1 800 000 0000

fax:

1 900 000 0000

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Locus M - Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:19 pm

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Hi Hitchcock Bell.

I know NineCows is busy, so I will take the liberty to answer your post as good as I can. I understand your suggestion, the matrix is a bitch to be tamed for sure and I use the small version so sometimes my nose touch the screen to find the right pins. However I can live with that because most of the time I feel like kissing this machine anyway. Well, NC seems very open to such suggestions so there is hope I guess.

Now the reverb: It works fine but everything is relative in this matrix so how you patch it really depends on other settings. However if you are up for a basic synth structure in which the envelope pins are the only ones which is patched to the output 1 + 2 (first vertical row)like in the basic synth patch you will have to activate the reverb by 1) the pins in output 1 + 2 (vertical row) and 2) then move to the env signal (horizontal row) and pin in to the reverb (horizontal row). Now to make sure go for the long reverb, the short one can fool you to believe there is no reverb at all. Same principle can be applied to the delay.

I would have showed you with a picture but I don't know how to add pictures in a post, can not find any function to do that...can you tell me how to do that?

Best Regards

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ninecows - Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:26 am

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I think that I actually included the guidelines in the small GUI version, but I'll include it in the big one as well - it takes 30 seconds, so why not

And I think the reverb is working... At least it did in my latest build. But I'll have a look at it.

Try to set up the synth like this:



You should get a short, dry noise on the left channel and its reverb on the right.

And by the way: Images are posted by writing the link to the image (so you'll have to upload it to a server somewhere) between image-tags (click the IMG-button above)[/img]

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Locus M - Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:39 am

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You did include the guidlines in the small version (though I still have to kiss the screen sometimes but nevermind that) and the reverb is working fine in the big version.

Best Regards

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Hitchcock Bell - Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:20 am

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Thanks guys. I'll try the reverb again with the advice in mind.

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datapark - Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:28 pm

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It looks nice.
Its very buggy in FL though (i've tried both the standard "effect" version and the cubase vsti) as well as an enormous CPU hog.

There are a few synthi e-mus out there. I know one i had success with (Synthia by elemusic) although i don't know if its a true emu of the hardware or just a copy of the work flow.

Either way, it didn't give me nearly have as many headaches as this thing has so far.



It is such a pretty interface though


Anyway, I did try it in energyXTCore with some limited success (i'll actually chalk most of that up to the fact that i don't know/like XTs interface) however some notes

1 - CPU seems huge, and it spikes a lot.
2 - Stuck notes!
3 - Not only do i get stuck notes that refuse to go away, i actually get a lagged and stuttering delay between pressing play, and the actual playing back of whats in the piano roll. This is for both versions tested.

It ends up being pretty much unusable which is a real shame because I know I have a lot of fun with Ele's version, and I'd like to give yours a real shot (i did test it of course and it sounds pretty neat.)

Anyway, hope some of this helps. You've got a real gem in your hands if you can iron it out

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Locus M - Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:56 pm

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The envelope shaper on this thing is a recycler, thus if you want to have a normal envelope that do not recycle, you will have to turn the "off" knob to its max in the evelope shaper section. Otherwise it will recycle and that sounds like the notes get stuck

If the off knob bottom is turned to or near minimum, you can start a recycle by playing a note "stacatto" , if you want to stop it again, play it "legato" (keep the key down). Try this and see if that is the problem.

otherwise it might be problems in the patching of the sounds, at least I do not get the effect you are describing


Best Regards

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ninecows - Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:01 am

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Hmmm... sounds strange to me. I think its host and/or system dependent then. What system are you using? And what about drivers? ASIO or something else?

I've seen some heavy CPU loads while building the synth in synth edit, but once its "compiled" as a VST(i) it very rarely goes beyond 4-7% CPU when loaded in Reaper. If I really push it, like making a very complex patching with loads of reverb and delay and "feeding" the synth with a very fast sequence it can go higher, and I onced managed to make Reaper choke on it that way...

I'm running it on a AMD Athlon X2 +4200 system with 1 GB ram and ASIO drivers. Not the fastest system around, but hopefully the synth should be able to run on less than that.

The stuck notes thing sounds very strange to me too. I've never seen this behaviour, but if its behaving like that its not good enough! Could you provide a patch that triggers this behaviour or just a screen-shot of settings and matrix routings? Then I'll have a look at it.

If anybody else sees the same things please feel free to chime in. Now that I made the synth available to the public my main concern is to make it as good as possible

That said, I'm not a professionel software developer, so I have limited time to work on this one. So far I've only tested it in Reaper as I cant afford to pay a lot of money for hosts (Cubase, Sonar etc). Besides that my programming skills are... well But I'll try my best to solve it of course

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ninecows - Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:03 am

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Yup I suspected it could be something like this too. You might wanna take a look at that one datapark.

Thanks Hskovlund

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ninecows - Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:24 am

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Just tested it in the demo version of energyXT2, and so far it seems fine. My time right now is limited, so I'll have to do some more testing the next couple of days (and learn how to use energyXT2 )

Please let me know if you solve the problems or run into more

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datapark - Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:54 pm

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I'm running an intel dual core, 1 gig of ram, using a Novation NIO (ASIO, and latency is set at 10 right now. i tried increasing it but it didn't help. of course its top latency is 20, so its hard to judge. i could test it out on my SBLive card... gimme a sec. nope)



Anyway.
I'm guessing this is just an extreme case of synthedit since you've got so many modules stuffed in this beaut.
My lowly system simply has trouble with it, I'm assuming.

I did follow your advice on the stuck notes, and you were right (i think, i can't recall my settings yesterday)

I still get the stuttering start though, although now that the repeater isn't running, you don't hear any notes, its simply a delay in between pressing play and the track actually running.


BTW, I also tested in reaper, and the same stutter start is there as well as in FL & XT.

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stevehayes - Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:11 am

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hi, i have the ninecows putney software and am having technical problem. can anyone help?
i have used fxpansion software to convert it to rtas and use in protools, the synth gets converted and opens in PT, but i can get no audio out..any ideas?
thanks
steve

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Locus M - Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:37 am

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Could be a problem of conversion and thus beyond me, but if you are using the small version be aware that the matrix settings of the original patches were lost when Ninecows made it. Thus it will not say anything untill you activate the matrix. If the matrix is all "black holes" and no green and red lights, this is the problem. If so, try the large version or try to manually reconstruct the patch from the frontpage of the manual to get you started.

Best Regards

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Midiworks - Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:30 am

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The real workaround is quite easy.
Simply copy the xxx.dll and change the name to xxx2.dll ect.
Best keep them in a main folder (xxx).
No different ID's.


Rene

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Locus M - Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:40 am

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thanks midiworks, though you are not quoting me but Ninecows I think. Thanks anyway!

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ninecows - Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:14 am

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Hi everyone

I'm pretty busy these days (and have been for like a month now). Got a new job, had to move and had not internet for 3 weeks () All this is more or less over now Hopefully I will be able to take a few days off soon and build a "final" version with:

- only one GUI-size (not too small, not too big).
- a VSTi and a VST version (the VST will also work as a synth in some hosts)
- (some of) the requests mentioned in this thread - especially phase modulation (0-180 degrees) and sync to "note on" of each OSC
- the length of the gate signal entering the matrix can be adjusted, so instead of giving a pulse of length corresponding to the time you press the key, the pulse can be shortened to a length down to 0.1 s. The "normal" gate pulse will still control the envelope shaper as usual and this new function can be disabled by turning the new knob to max (just like the on-time in the envelope shaper)*
- more presets, including those I already got from Hskovlund (thanks )

Sorry for not replying and being so slow at getting this version out... I'm still alive and will make it... some day

If you got more ideas please let me know. You're not forgotten

Cheers
Ninecows

*actually you can already achieve this by sending the gate to the delay, invert it and then add the delayed and inversed gate signal to the original in the matrix (but then all the delay is doing is delaying a DC signal, which is really a waste of CPU-power and a nice delay)

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Locus M - Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:32 am

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Hi NineCows
Long time no see. Glad you are almost there, I look forward to the new version. If you want some more presets, I could make a few more during this week and send you in the weekend or whenever you give a signal. Just give me a hint and I am at it.

Best Regards

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Farakeys - Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:52 am

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Great News ninecows!!!

As you probably know, most of us are very excited and just can't wait for the final version...

...But we do know that coding always requires quite a bit of work to get things finished (often, more than we plan/want).
Take as long as you need to finish it (err... not TOO Long... )
We just have to thank you for making it, and making it free...

Thank you very much!

Best,

Farakeys.

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ninecows - Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:22 am

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Hi there

I think I got the scaling right now. It took me a whole weekend to scale the knobs correctly (!), so before I start on the 320 pins in the matrix, I would like to hear if you like the new dimensions. Go to http://www.nigo.dk/junk/putney-test.bmp for a screen-shot, and make sure your browser doesn't scale the picture. The file is a bit large (1.5 MB) so it might take a while to load.

Not everything is done yet - I'm working on a nicer looking joystick, switches and matrix pins (using povray), so just worry about the dimensions

I'll work on the functions and "inside" of the synth while you guys cast your votes on the icing of the cake

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S-N-S - Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:43 am

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i like the new dimensions

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Farakeys - Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:57 pm

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I Like it Too!!
I'm using 1600x1050 in my Laptop.

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tattiemannie - Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:04 pm

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Ha ha ... thats some weird lookin' beast you're emulating Ninecows... if I had seen that Portabella pic on anythin' other than a music site, I would have thought it was for playin' battleships!

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ninecows - Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:45 am

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Oh that would be SO cool - to build in an "easter egg" in the VSTi so you actually COULD play battleships on it. But don't know how to do that in synthedit

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Keith99 - Sat May 10, 2008 12:29 pm

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Sorry to reply to an old(ish) thread but I just downloaded this to use in a tutorial in this months CM and I only see one preset (Pulzewidth HS). The tutorial requires me to use Auto Wah-Wah - is there a way to get the presets? Or am I being daft and they are available somewhere on the device and I just cant see them?

thanks

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Locus M - Sat May 10, 2008 10:16 pm

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Keith, it sounds like you have got an "unofficial version", that is the latest version, which actually is not finished yet and has not been announced.

I know that Ninecows is working on converting my presets for the new Putney manually, so that will take some time.

In the meantime, you can PM or mail me your e-mail adresse and I will send an older version of Putney (the small version) and some presets for it.


Alternatively, you can tell me what kind of scratch patch you need, and I'll make one for you to use on the version you already got.

Best Regards

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Keith99 - Sun May 11, 2008 2:58 am

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Hi, that is very kind of you thanks - I will PM you. I downloaded the putney.zip from www.nigo.dk/junk/. There are a couple of other versions in there but one is very old and the other seems to have no presets either.

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ninecows - Sun May 11, 2008 9:10 am

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Yeah... I'm building a new version and was almost ready to release when I found a few bugs that needed to be fixed. That's why the version on nigo.dk/junk seems very temporary.

Furthermore I'm putting in a very simple 8 note step-sequencer in it. Unlike normal sequencers its just producing a series of control voltages, that can be routed in to the matrix anywhere you want (output level, filter freq. etc), though OSC frequencies would be the obvious choise . But it will take some time before its done.

I'll announce the premier here of course and will make a nice presentation of the synth on my website when its done. I'll also try to add it to the KVR plugin database.

I'll keep listening to this thread as well and will be happy to give support

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dreaddd - Sat May 17, 2008 10:21 am

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just saw the Putney vst in use on a CM tutorial on Fripp-esque gtrs
big up!

Peace

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ninecows - Sun May 18, 2008 9:09 am

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Now its ready for ya'. Go to http://www.ninecows.dk/cynthia for the latest edition (including nice presets by HSkovlund)

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Tibor25 - Sun May 18, 2008 12:37 pm

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[quote="ninecows"]Hi there

Update (May 18th): It is done! Go to the addres below for the latest version, including a nice collection of patches:

http://www.ninecows.dk/cynthia

(I updated links and screenshot below as well)


EDIT (february 27th): As requested the zip-file now contains a large and small-sized edition so you can choose the one that fits your screen best. The small is without presets so far.

Hi,
this is what is was waiting for! Great for rebuilding a sound tutorial in Computer Music. Have to read your manual this night, but FX Version seems to work in Live. Tibor

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ninecows - Sun May 18, 2008 2:20 pm

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What's this tutorial everybody's talking about? Is the Putney/Cynthia mentioned in Computer Music... Is it my synth or what?

If anybody got the article I would love to read it...

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Scot Solida - Sun May 18, 2008 2:46 pm

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I'm not sure what the issue number is, but it's used in a Q+A on emulating Robert Fripp's guitar sounds.

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datapark - Sun May 18, 2008 8:05 pm

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Issue # 126

the "We <3 Techno" issue

Congrats

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Moe Shinola - Sun May 18, 2008 8:22 pm

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How do you turn the Hold function off? I'd like to hit a note and have it sound only once.

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Tibor25 - Sun May 18, 2008 8:46 pm

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Its number 126, Computer Magazine, June 08, just published, with tutorial to build Fripps sound on "Heroes" by Bowie (and others). Its your Synth (Putney) they are refering very positive in the article. With your new version (cynth) and a lot of testing, it works that you get a great guitar tone if one use FX version of your synth.
Tibor

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Locus M - Sun May 18, 2008 11:17 pm

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Take the "off" knob in the "envelope shaper" section to its max to stop the sound.

All the best

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ninecows - Mon May 19, 2008 2:05 am

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Oh... cool And I'm just an amateur in SynthEdit. Next: The KVR-database

I'm trying to make a "fix" for the envelop-recycling thing. Can't really decide how it should work. Right now its my intention that it should work as described in the manual, but it doesn't always. Could also go back to the "staccato" playing mode... hmmm... But any way. Feel free to make some patches and I'll put them on my site with credit to you guys.

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DrakeSTAR - Mon May 26, 2008 4:15 am

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in heroes the sound isnt just the e-bow with the electroharmonix big muff or little big muff ?
if they says it s a synth ... I msho it s a "legend"
I think its guitar les paul 59 mid mike /e box and lectro harmonix
have you ever heard it ?
the guitar sings alone you can make a note and go have a bite as said Nigel from Spinel Tap

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Scot Solida - Mon May 26, 2008 4:37 am

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It's not an e-bow, no, though you can indeed make a similar sound with an e-bow. Fripp has used a wide variety of effects chains to produce his signature sounds over the years, and many times that sound was helped along by an EMS Synthi. As a matter of fact, the very unit Fripp used on "Heroes" was later given to Bowie as a gift.

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bailees7irish - Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:10 am

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just a bump for this cool synth that people may have forgotten about

~Bren

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jupiter8 - Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:17 am

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"Everyone who's played the song with Bowie since then has had to use an E-bow to duplicate it, but Fripp had a technique in those days where he measured the distance between the guitar and the speaker where each note would feed back. For instance, an 'A' would feed back maybe at about four feet from the speaker, whereas a 'G' would feed back maybe three and a half feet from it. He had a strip that they would place on the floor, and when he was playing the note 'F' sharp he would stand on the strip's 'F' sharp point and 'F' sharp would feed back better. He really worked this out to a fine science, and we were playing this at a terrific level in the studio, too. It was very, very loud, and all the while he was playing these notes — that beautiful overhead line — Eno was turning the dials and creating a new envelope and just playing with the filter bank. We did three takes of that, and although one take would sound very patchy, three takes had all of these filter changes and feedback blending into that very smooth, haunting, overlaying melody which you hear."

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BrufordRules - Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:17 am

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In the Presets page there are only links to porn content.

Has anybody noticed that?

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bailees7irish - Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:20 am

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yep.. i saw that earlier today..

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ninecows - Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:49 am

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yes... just came home from a vacation and it seems like there's been a major spam-attack. I'll start deleting the porn-topics. Really annoying

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kilgoretrout - Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:13 am

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I just read the first two pages of this thread, so excuse me if I am redundant.

I am looking forward to downloading this and trying it out. I have Reaktor and the emulation is nothing like the real AKS. BTW - I also have a real AKS and truly enjoy tweaking it.

To the designer, congratulations on a herculean effort. Be careful to not try to make it too universal. My AKS is an excellent effects machine, but there is no way I could actually have it carry a tune for long without going out of tune.

One other attribute of the original AKS - the battleship style pin board has a ton of cross-talk and voltage droop issues. If you have say OSC1 being modulated by OSC3 and plug OSC3 into say the filter cutoff, it changes the mod on Osc1. I know that a ton of people would hate this, but it is part of what gave the Putney or AKS their unique sounds.

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ninecows - Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:03 am

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Perhaps I should make an "unstable" version with cross-talk and OSC's that wont keep in tune It would be fun to do, but it would also be pretty useless as a VSTi... The masses expect it to sound the same each time

By the way - how is it compared to the original? Is it anyway near? I would never claim that it is. Neither is it intended to. All those mod's and just the OSC's alone would propably sound different. I just did my best to get the same architecture as the original, so at least the routing possibilities would be the same.

And how is the reaktor compared to mine? I guess the reaktor one is less CPU-hungry?

Wish I had the original, but for 5200€ I dont think so...

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