KVR :: Effects » Redline Monitor - how does it work? [View Original Topic]
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fceramic - Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:25 pm

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Anyone tried this one yet?

I do a bit of headphone mixing when I can't disturb my housemates. So does this plugin actually help?

http://112db.com/redline/monitor/?demo

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aud.io - Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:03 pm

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I can't help you with the mentioned plugin but you might want to try this freebie:
http://refinedaudiometrics.com/products-hdphx.shtml

Also I see the plugin you mentioned can be fully tested for 2 months.

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shamann - Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:12 pm

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I was on the beta team for it. Here's how dj! of 112db explained it to us. I don't think I could say it any better:

Essentially HPS is a listening tool. It strives to replace the extreme stereo image that you get on headphones by smt that is close to the stereo image obtained by decent monitor speakers. Anybody who has ever tried to do a mix on headphones will be familiar with the shortcomings of headphones: the stereo image is unclear to the point of being non existent, there is no discernible phantom center, and the instrument balances are way off unless everything is panned dead center.

HPS performs a combination of filtering, frequency-dependent delaying, M/S encoding, and early reflections to create a headphone soundstage in a way that should allow you to localize sound sources. Furthermore it adjusts the relative levels of panned sources to something close to speakers, and moves the soundstage from inside your head (with headphones) to the front. All this is pretty subtle, but like I said it's a listening tool and by no means an effect processor.

The Soundstage control determines the position of the virtual speakers in degrees. At the minimum setting of 15 degs the speakers are very close together and the resulting stereo image will be very narrow. Adjusting the control will move the speakers apart until at 90 degs they are located at approximately +/- 45 degs from the listener's perspective.

You will notice that with HPS enabled you should be able to discern a phantom center in the stereo image--sounds panned near the stereo center will appear to come from a position straight ahead and no longer from somewhere inside your head. Compared to speakers this phantom center will probably be somewhat dominant compared to the sounds panned more towards the L/R sides, which can be remedied through the Phantom Center control. The default setting of -1.6dB works for me, but essentially this is a "season to taste" control. A/B comparisons with a decent set of speakers should prove useful in adjusting this.

Finally, the Distance control adds some subtle early reflections that move the stereo image slightly farther away--again it's a subtle effect, closing your eyes while listening often helps. This one is entirely to taste. I personally prefer the default setting but YMMV.

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djex - Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:32 pm

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Thanks for the heads up shamann! Just two small corrections about things that have changed since I wrote that:

1) obviously it no longers listens to the HPS codename

2) the entire functionality of the Distance control has been thrown overboard and reworked from the bottom up. I found that adding early reflections did create a sense of distance but also caused too many aural side effects to be really useful. The perceived effect is still similar in that it appears to move the soundstage slightly back, but the new version additionally reinforces the sense of stereo positioning.

It achieves this by incorporating measurements taken from a dummy head with in-ear microphones, tweaked and twisted and bent to have minimal effect on the frequency response while still providing the same directional clues. In combination with the processing that was already in HPS the overall effect is much more pronounced, and while it does have a slight effect on the frequency response I find that in fact it brings the sound of headphones and nearfield monitors closer together.

But don't take my word for it: try the 60-day demo and listen for yourself!

-- dj!

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Alien Leg - Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:54 pm

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I did install the demo but can't find a demo license file?

Edit: Got it from the email!

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Download SOphist - Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:53 pm

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it's out already?

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djex - Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:17 am

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We just released it yesterday but the news hasn't hit the headlines yet.

Not sure how the thread starter figured it out so fast BTW.

-- dj!

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Frantiac - Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:34 am

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How about this? http://www.ohl.to/about-audio/audio-softwares/crossfeed-and-eq/

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Alien Leg - Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:25 am

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I tried it and like it, but the distance simulation is a little bit too subtle for me. I have my Genelec monitors 1m away and the 2m simulation sounds more like 1/2 m than 2m. I would like to be able to set the soundstage more in front of me, like the monitors do.
Many other simulations like this do alter the sound way too drastically, so its really impressive how the sound stays natural. If the distance scenario could be improved it would be almost perfect.

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djex - Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:33 am

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Thanks for the feedback & glad you like it!

As for having more extreme settings for the distance simulation, that is no problem--I purposely limited the range to smt that works for me. But if it turns out users want more extreme settings I'd be more than happy to provide them.

-- dj!

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bduffy - Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:42 am

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"Redline Reverb"!! You sneaky devils! I turn my back for a second...

I had kind of given up on the EQ and HPS betas; got distracted by Xmas and porting to Mac. I'm downloading this now, I'll give it a go.

I hope the EQ is on the way soon!

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bduffy - Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:07 am

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Sorry: and where do we get the current license file for Redline Monitor?

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djex - Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:13 am

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Hehe... you snooze, you lose!

I'll check (and update) the beta licenses at the forum--assuming that's what you're referring to. Or just visit

http://112dB.com/redline/monitor?demo

and request a 60-day demo license. That's probably the quickest way.

Take care,

-- dj!

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bduffy - Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:16 am

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Ah: we just email you guys? Will do, thanks!

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Eddie(Soulseekers) - Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:29 am

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so this plug does what SPL Phonitor does http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfhul7jyXwg if so, awesome!!! cause SPL is charging like $1500

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Compyfox - Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:37 am

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Or get Refined Audiometrics HDPHX - which is free and does exactly the same, just without tweaking knobs and limited to Windows only. But it does the trick with the HAAS effect, etc.

Actually... working on headphones is a thing if you're songwriting, but for mixing, I can only advice you to dith the headphones and use monitor speakers. Especially if you use a headphone branch that has not a flat response.


Not dissing you guys (112dB), I just don't see the need for a plugin like that anymore.

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djex - Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:52 am

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No problem, I more than encourage critical replies.

The reason why Redline Monitor is a useful addition to the existing plugin arsenal lies exactly with the Haas effect--more to the point, the fact that unlike most or all similar plugins it doesn't exploit it. (For those not in the know, essentially they add a delayed version of the left channel to the right channel, and vice versa.)

The problem with it is that it doesn't sound natural--simply because that's not at all what happens when you "hear" something from a distance--and more importantly that it introduces a delayed version into the audio path, which causes all kinds of frequency artifacts. There's any number of discussions on comparable plugins on other forums, and the consensus is invariably that existing plugins mess up the audio (most of all the frequency content) too much to be useful for any serious work.

And that is where Redline Monitor shines: even though it achieves (IMHO) better results than other plugins the frequency response is entirely flat within +/- 0.1dB--check the frequency graphs in the manual.

I welcome you to perform A/B comparisons with other plugins. You'll find that not only does Redline Monitor sounds much more convincing, it leaves the audio perfectly intact. Without which such a plugin degrades from an invaluable tool but just an interesting effect.

YMMV,

-- dj!

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K-Slash - Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:55 am

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Hi dj!,

Juts a question, not about Redline Monitor, but about the Redline Equalizer.

Does it adds harmonic content like analogue processors while boosting frequencies or does it work like all the "classic" software equalizers ?

Thanks .

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Compyfox - Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:59 am

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Like I said, I only use headphones for songwriting now, not mixing since I think that working on headphones gives a totally wrong misinterpretation of the audio spectrum (and working too long on that end, makes your ears tired, too).

I used HDPHX for a while, it adds more lowend indeed and moves the earmuffs virutally "away" from your head, but on 1:1 comparision with ARC running on speakers, and HDPHX on the Headphone, I was massively dissapointed by the response.

For those who're stuck on a certain volume while working, it might be the solution indeed. But to me, I rather stick to speakers and also take a room into consideration. Best of both worlds.

On the other hand, an emulator of crappy earplugs would be great - so we can see how a mix will sound on iPod plugs or MP3 sticks on general. But this is not something I'd shell out money for, especially since every user of mp3 sticks has a different listening experience (more bass, less bass, more mids, etc).

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djex - Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:02 am

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The current beta version (which of course you don't have access too ) doesn't but there is a good chance such a feature will be added before the release.

Thanks,

-- dj!

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Eddie(Soulseekers) - Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:03 am

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the reason for me to use this plugin is that i dont have the luxury of using my monitors when i work which is at night when my family is sleeping

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K-Slash - Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:05 am

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Yeah, that's GREAT .

If it's included on the v1.0, I will for sure drop my money, if it sounds good .

By the way what will be the price range ?

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djex - Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:09 am

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A quality pair of headphones shd have near-perfect frequency response, and in combination with Redline Monitor that's still be true. The ear fatigue is a common phenomenon with headphones and is caused by the extreme separation between what the left and right ear hears. So that too will be gone with our plugin.



Yes, I couldn't agree more. I'd personally choose a decent room with good speakers over even the best headphones any day of the week, but some of us don't have that luxury--and that's the audience we're targeting with this plugin. Redline Monitor is not intended as a replacement for a good speaker setup but as a viable alternative for when (for whatever reason) you can't use speakers.

-- dj!

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aallvor - Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:15 am

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I'm in that target audience, and will be for some considerable time, so this is right up my alley. Plug looks good

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K-Slash - Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:33 am

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I'll be in this audience too for a long time .

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buscemi - Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:52 am

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Nice demo terms and it does seem to fit the bill for me when I'm using my laptop or whatever other reasons I find I can't be using proper monitoring. Will have to give it a whirl, had no idea this product existed until this thread.

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fceramic - Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:28 am

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If you don't have a pro studio this plugin is very useful, basically because a lot of the time there's too much noise around to hear details from the monitors.

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Mushy Mushy - Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:53 am

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I quite like the idea behind this plugin - will give the demo a shot tonight.
It may be a godsend for me.

I never get any studio work done lately.
By the time I get home from work everybody's in bed, so I put the headphones on.
I do a little bit of studio work , then ear fatigue sets in and I give up.
So i'm quite looking forward to this plugin.

Just a question on how it works though.
I have multiple outs from my sequencer/soundcard.
This obviously means i'll need to insert an instance of the plugin in every master out.
But once I do this will it still be effective??? ie, one instance wont know what the other's doing, so i'd imagine it could be correcting something not needing correcting and visa versa...

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djex - Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:11 am

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That's an interesting question--I understand you're running multiple outputs into a hardware mixer? It should still be OK as long as you don't insert multiple instances (directly or indirectly) after one another on the same signal path, but just a single instance on each individual output.

In other words, a separate instance on each stereo out shd do the trick. Just make sure to pan the stereo channels hard left and right, otherwise I'm not sure what will happen.

Take care,

-- dj!

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Mushy Mushy - Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:24 am

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Correct.

I'll let you know how it goes

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Eddie(Soulseekers) - Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:26 am

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That's an interesting question--I understand you're running multiple outputs into a hardware mixer? It should still be OK as long as you don't insert multiple instances (directly or indirectly) after one another on the same signal path, but just a single instance on each individual output.

In other words, a separate instance on each stereo out shd do the trick. Just make sure to pan the stereo channels hard left and right, otherwise I'm not sure what will happen.

Take care,

-- dj!


Or could I just put it on the masterbus like I do with IKmultimedia ARC

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djex - Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:28 am

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I would much appreciate that! I don't see a technical reason why it shdn't work but TBH I haven't tried this so...

Peace,

-- dj!

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djeroen - Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:46 am

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Tried the demo with high expectations, but was somewhat dissapointed

To me it does not sound like listening to loudspeakers.
I think there are at least three important causes for this:

First of all; the human auditory system totally relies on
*changes* in the spectrum (especially above 5 kHz)
to estimate the elevation of a sound source.
By making the spectrum 'flat', you destroy *the* most relevant
elevation cue that we humans have.

Second: I did not perceive any 'externalization'. The sound
sources stayed 'inside the head' no matter what knobs I turned
or distance used. It does not sound like listening to loudspeakers in a room; I predominantly perceive a loss (or change) of spatial image due
to the inserted crosstalk.

Third: the acoustic properties of the pathway from loudspeaker
to ears (often captured by head-related transfer functions) are
different for every human. Research on this topic has shown
many times that listening through the 'wrong' ears has a
negative effect on the spatial impression. Without any personalization,
a convincing effect is almost impossible to achieve,
despite claims by various vendors of similar technology.

Just my 2 cents. I like the idea very much, I definately see
a benefit for this plugin (and this specific implementation),
and I know very well that a convincing
'out of head' effect is extremely difficult to realize. So maybe
I just had the wrong expectation...?

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dasdeck - Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:05 am

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i try it too. it may not sound like loudpeaker (i don't have proper ones anyways ), but it helps me a lot when using my headphones so i may buy it . i guess i'll have to try the free alternatives too, but they sound very different indeed.

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djex - Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:38 am

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I'm sorry to hear that, but this might simply be a case of having wrong expectations. Redline Monitor is strictly intended as a tool and not an effect. You won't be blown away with how 3-dimensional your headphones suddenly sound, and it won't sound like a room either. If that's what you're after you'd probably be better off with one of the "other" spatialization plugins or even (if I may be so bold) a reverb on a room setting.

Redline Monitor's real application is for judging mixes on headphones, and for that you simply need a flat frequency response. Sure you can do mixes on any set of speakers no matter how crappy, but if you can't trust what you're hearing because of frequency problems you're in for a world of trouble the minute your mixes are played back on a different setup.



True, and that's exactly what the Distance control does. It has been suggested somewhere in this thread that the effect is somewhat on the subtle side, so perhaps that's what you're experiencing as well. If more people feel this way I have no problems with exaggerating the effect in a point release--in the current incarnation it is limited on purpose.



Again I agree, and that is as intended: it shd sound like loudspeakers in a more or less anechoic room. There is no room simulation of any kind as, again, that would mess with the frequency content too much to be truly useful.



And one more +1 . I wasn't aware of there being a negative effect though, but I do know that the effect will markedly vary from listener to listener. The current version has what we found to be a good "average" curve, but it's possible that it does disagree with your particular pinnae. FWIW a future version will feature some way to adjust to/select from a (relatively large) set of real-world ears (excuse the term), but as you may appreciate that is not a small or trivial thing to achieve. Work on that is well underway, though.

So really thanks for your critical comments, I hope I managed to address some of your concerns and perhaps, just perhaps it might still grow on you. As you already say it is delicate territory we're on here, but rest assured that I listen to and much value your feedback.

Take care,

-- dj!

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Mushy Mushy - Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:43 am

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The next question is not intended to be funny, but i have no other way to word it???

Re the real world ears: how will I know what kind of ear I have????

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Gucky - Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:47 am

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I for my person like the plug.
I will buy it in the next weeks.
But a little bit more "distance" for the distance parameter would be great.

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djex - Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:49 am

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It's hard not to follow this up with a funny remark but I'll do my best to contain myself.

Short answer: you won't. What I'm intending is to take a set of measurements from a varied set of, well, real-world ears, and then find some good way to select from that set (pun may or may not be intended) by ear. It's still very much work in progress though so I can't be much more specific at this point.

-- dj!

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Mushy Mushy - Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:53 am

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ah, sounds promising!

Will it have an adjustable wax level that can be automated????
And perhaps hair also so we can simulate the aging process

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buscemi - Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:57 am

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I'm a guitar player who had the prerequisite stupidity of youth years back so a "WHAT??? HUH????" + tinnitus canceler setting would be appreciate.

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Eddie(Soulseekers) - Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:46 am

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I'm sorry for asking this question again but does the Redline Monitor get inserted in the Masterbus

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advaya - Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:14 am

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Yeah, that'd be my guess... at the end of the effects chain (if any) on the master bus.

I just gotta remember to turn it OFF before bouncing down.

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dj! (112dB) - Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:17 am

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Yes, the master buss is the place to put it!



Unless of course you want to create a mix that sounds good on headphones when played back.

-- dj!

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chicken muffin - Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:21 am

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it takes your money.

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advaya - Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:22 am

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True enough... Though I am usually quite satisfied with how a mix translates to headphones once mixed properly on a good speaker/monitor setup... I cannot say the same for the other way around though!

Nice plugin BTW.

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hibidy - Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:57 am

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This is on my list of "must try" and seems like a good idea.

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bduffy - Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:13 pm

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I gotta say: this reverb sounds really, really promising!

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djeroen - Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:39 pm

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Thanks very much for the reply; I hope I did not come across harsh,
it least that was not intended at all...

Anyway like I said, I really like the concept and the plug, but just had different expectations on what it does....

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dj! (112dB) - Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:50 pm

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Not at all! Constructive criticism (as long as it stays within the boundaries of reason ) is both useful and much appreciated. You raise a couple of very good points and, while some simply boil down to different expectations, others I will take to heart and hopefully address in future development.

Take care,

-- dj!

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bmanic - Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:54 pm

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I just tried the demo and I'm pretty impressed! By far the most useful "makes headphones viable for mixing" tool I ever tried. Sure, it doesn't make your headphones sound like speakers, at all. The distance knob is pretty useless in my opinion and only smears the phase in a weird way.

However, the phantom center and sound stage really do work in a subtle way. The most immediate thing I noticed, after tweaking it to my liking (65 or 70 degrees with center -2dB), was that I had an easier time hearing dynamic changes. Compressors and other subtle dynamic effects were easier to set. For instance, Bootsie's TesslaSE is easier to hear what it does when the Redline Monitor is on the masterbus.

This is very much like speakers. Dynamic changes are easier to hear so my guess is that it'll be tremendous help in setting volume levels of various sources. I also had much easier time using a mid/side eq and equalizing the stereo signal the way I wanted it.

I have not yet confirmed my initial impressions by doing comparisons in the studio but I will do so next week.

IMHO this is currently the best "fake speakers" thing on the market (I've tried all I've found) because of the way it seems to help one make correct decisions when it comes to dynamics. It does not sound at all like speakers in a room which is a GOOD thing, in my opinion.

EDIT: oh I forgot to mention that it seems to be critical of what headphones you use. I tried it now on my basic sony earbuds and had a very hard time hearing any change, then I tried it with AKG-271s and there was a noticeable change in the way I perceived dynamics and finally on the AKG K701's the difference was pretty big. So in short, the more accurate your headphones are (frequency and impulse response), the better this thing seems to perform.

Cheers!
bManic

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007 - Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:39 pm

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I agree with Bmanic, this one really works. It was not difficult to mimic my monitor setup. Great!

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Optomadic - Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:21 pm

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Can't wait to give this a go!

Good to hear 112db is still churning out the plugins .. Wish I could remember my login now ..

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dj! (112dB) - Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:46 am

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A bit off-topic by now, but we haven't established pricing for it yet. Probably more expensive than Redline Monitor and cheaper than Morgana, but that's a "probably". Not very helpful, I know.

-- dj!

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K-Slash - Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:10 am

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Thanks dj!.

I'll be looking forward to it.

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Optomadic - Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:53 am

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Had a chance to test this on my older ATH-M50's. It offers very clean, precise and tight image control! Works very much like a hardware equivalent, set it forget it and keep working . When I extend beyond .5m dist it gets a tad tinny in those particular cans.

Now that its got 'my ear' I'm compelled to retest the distance with a much better pair of closed backs and even a set of in-ears (not buds) after. Be interesting to see how far the field can be extended ..

Excellent design on 112db's part. So far seems worth the price if you consider how much the hw equivalent would cost.

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dj! (112dB) - Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:02 am

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Good to hear that! It is well possible that less-than-perfect headphones result in less-than-perfect sound from Redline Monitor. As bmanic remarked in his "almost review" above the frequency & impulse response of the headphones appears to play an important role in achieving good results--once more you pay for what you get.

To be honest we mostly developed it on relatively high-end headphones with a Sony MDR-7506 being the cheapest pair. You wouldn't try mixing on a pair of $100 speakers either... right?

Would you?

-- dj!

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Optomadic - Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:27 am

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No I usually use that grade for pre-produc and recording only. I never mix with hp anyway .

It does have a kind of a pro-sumer feel to it though .

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Steelhead - Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:09 am

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Hi, dj!
Just couple of questions.
1) What kind of headphones (close, (semi)open) is best to use with this plugin? I guess the answer will be "open" because they give that sense of "air" but I have only AKG 240S and cannot compare myself.
2) You said to had tested plugin with many different headphones. Any preferences among them for the best result achieved? Are there some HP characteristics (such as imaging, frequency response and so on) that are vital for good plugin work results?
BTW, distance control indeed is very subtle and has some strange phase problems. I've listened to several tracks and in cases of hard guitar panning to left and right there was effect similar to phase cancellation.

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megadeth - Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:40 am

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I'm going to test your tool now

About headphones, i think open ones are the best because you already get a little "ambiance" and phase cancellation like on HP

A second hand HD600 with headphone amp can do marvelous things

And always use the mono button to test phase cancellation
If bass is very good in mono with headphones, but got phase cancellation in real room...your room sucks

Phase cancellation is due to acoustic in this case
I don't speak about mix quality, just phase

If i was aware like i am now about my acoustic troubles like -12dB hole in the bass spectrum near 80Hz, i would have bought an HD600 with an amp

Unlike a lot of ppl think, a mix is better with tools like redline monitor with good headphones and amp than with good nearfield monitors and shitty room acoustic

Just try a slow 20 Hz - 200 Hz sweep at medium gain with free MDA TestTone in your room and if you hear some big holes and bumps : you're dead, your room sucks like mine
And if you want to cry more, listen to the same sweep with your headphones : near perfectly flat

That's what a lot of ppl don't understand : headphones are hard to master but they are a LOT flatter than the best speakers in a shitty room...and a lot cheaper if you consider buying nearfields AND treating your room

Do the above test and you will see if you got massive troubles with bass, the most sensitive part of the acoutic

And the only solutions are :
- changing to a better room
- Bass traps

I'm waiting to change my room,so i will stick to headphones and multiple listening environnements and supports


Another trick :
you can help the stereo field effect and bass response by placing them a little forward and lower of your ears

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benjamind - Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:02 pm

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Sorry, but no pair of headphones, I don't care how good they are, will ever replace a pair of decent nearfields, even in an acoustically compromised room.

For checking bass, headphones are phenomenal for that job, but for the rest of the mix, nearfields are pretty much essential.

Sure, it's possible to mix on headphones. Beyerdynamic DT880 are good for that, as are AKG 701, but also consider Ultrasone Proline models, the Pro900 model is great for judging bass. These do bass better than most subwoofers.

Ben

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megadeth - Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:16 pm

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I will remember your opinion and keep checking my mixes on my nearfields (apart bass) and bass on headphones

DT880 (modded sometimes) is a reference for headphone roundups and i love the AKG too

Clean, dynamic and good stereo field, like nearly all AKGs

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Zsolt - Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:37 pm

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Could you check compatibility with Zynewave's Podium? Yesterday I inserted Redline Monitor demo on the master buss in one of my projects and mixed a bit with headphones. It was nice and a lot better than without the plugin, but when I closed Podium I got a blue screen. When I tried to open that project today, it said the project file was corrupt; so I've lost a LOT of work because of this (4 songs; 1 was mixed already). I really don't want to try inserting it again to recreate it and lose everything again, so maybe you should check this out. Thanks


regards,
Zsolt

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Mushy Mushy - Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:12 pm

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This is an absolutely fantastic tool...

At first I didnt like it. The bass and lower mids seemed to dissapear.
But after switching it off I realised how muddy and boomy the bottom end was previously. Obviously a major contributor to the fatigue I use to experience.
Switched it back on and everything just seems so precise now...

And I can almost see the music dancing on my nose now.
My monitors will still be my main source of mixing obviously.
But now i'm more than happy to be working on headphones.

Now where's that credit card

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Eddie(Soulseekers) - Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:43 pm

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I have ikmultimedia ARC and that is supposed to be placed in the last insert of my masterbus just like Redline Monitor my question is am i to reference my monitors with ARC on or off?
I'm assuming on since ARC is taking the room out of my mixes and I'm trying to get that same sound in my headphones is this correct?

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Mushy Mushy - Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:56 pm

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Have you thought about this??

ARC fixes deficiences in your monitoring setup.
Remove monitors = remove ARC

So you'd alternate between the two environments and mix until it sounds good on both.

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shanecgriffo - Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:42 pm

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tried this and like it.. a bit expensive for me at the minute tho'
i might try it for the demo period and see how it goes..
it could be pretty handy now i have a 5 month old bub.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25295175@N07/

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bmanic - Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:38 am

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There are several freeware plugins that try to do kind of the same as redline monitor. Try one of those. I'd start with this.

Oh, and cute kid you got there! My youngest is 3 months old now.

Cheers!
bManic

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shanecgriffo - Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:01 am

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yes they're pretty cute at that age hey!
(before the trouble starts )
I do have hdphx already, i'd just forgotten about it
i do think redline is a bit nicer on the ears tho
thanks

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ViktorW - Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:18 am

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Just demoed this tool and I'm really impressed! Creates a useful stereo image on my headphones. I like!

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megadeth - Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:17 pm

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Blue screen are hardware troubles (drivers, RAM, peripherals...)
So check your hard drive, check your RAM, check all external things like USB keyboard...

Sorry to say that, but never a plugin will cause blue screen only by itself
The only thing i seen, even with thousands VST tested, is host crashing, never blue screen or windows crashing

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an-electric-heart - Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:34 pm

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I got that HDPHX thing yesterday, I can't figure out where to put it! It's not a VST is it?

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an-electric-heart - Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:42 pm

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"HDPHX - Headphone Listening Enhancement for VST"

Oh, It says that in big letters up the top, anyway it doesn't seem to work in FL8, It just goes "opening wrapper" for ages then this default wrapper thing with one knob that doesn't do anything comes up

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eduardo_b - Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:21 pm

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I think I've tried them all, and, really, I find this is far more useful than the others.

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bmanic - Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:56 am

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I agree. Redline monitor doesn't mess with the frequency response in any nasty way (except when using the distance knob, hence I don't use it ) while still providing a useful stereo image reference for headphone mixing.

Cheers!
bManic

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BASSDRIVE - Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:42 pm

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I use FL Studio 8 and have Sony MDR-V600 headphones. Will it work properly with my host and sound good in my cans?

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shanecgriffo - Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:53 pm

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try the demo.. its good for a couple of months!

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mystran - Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:12 pm

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It works in FL8, yes. The version I tried had some bug (it did some memory corruptions a few times and failed to load at some point) but if those have been fixed, I don't think there's any problem specific to FL.

Whether it sounds good, you'll have to try yourself, and see if you like it. I got a pair of Sennheiser HD595 here that I tested it with, and it did localize the channels (as far as my ears are concerned) more or less where one would expect. I personally didn't like what it did with the stereo image when fed with something more fancy than pan-potted mono, and I also didn't really appreciate what happened to my bass (I kinda prefer to hear the pool of mud so I can attempt to do something about it) but I can see why someone would like it, and I admit that it sounds more natural than regular headphones (maybe I'm just too used to headphones and like them the way they work).

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dj! (112dB) - Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:29 am

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A tad late reply, but the "phase" smearing is in fact an (admittedly very jagged) EQ curve that imitates the filtering effect of one's pinnae. You'll find that the effect diminishes a lot if you give your ears some time to adjust to it. But I knew in advance that some users would prefer no mucking about with frequency content (while for others it doesn't seem radical enough in its current incarnation--you really can't please everybody ), which is why it can be disabled entirely.

-- dj!

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dj! (112dB) - Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:40 am

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Basically the plugin shd work with all "decent" headphones, but the closer to perfect its characteristics the better the final result will be. For anything except the Distance emulation frequency response isn't critical (but again, the flatter the better), but good phase response is--so no innovative features like noise cancellation or Ultrasones please! I would definitely recommend open headphones over closed types because the enclosure can create all kinds of problems by itself, but don't worry about it too much as long as it's not a $20 model.

Personally I'm a fan of Beyerdynamic and particularly the DT880, but like I said any decent pair shd be more than fine.

-- dj!

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dj! (112dB) - Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:42 am

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I definitely will, though (as another poster already replied) it is not very likely that a plugin could cause a BSOD. Then again it's computers we're talking about here so... I'll be back!

-- dj!

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Mushy Mushy - Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:42 am

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£385

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dj! (112dB) - Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:45 am

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£185 at http://thomann.de (well okay, plus shipping to the UK)

-- dj!

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Mushy Mushy - Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:53 am

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Wrong ones then.
I just found out there's three types:
http://www.dv247.com/search/0/0/ProductQuantity/Descending/DT880/1/

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dj! (112dB) - Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:58 am

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I didn't yet know about the headtracker version--cool.

-- dj!

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Mushy Mushy - Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:05 am

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So out of the three in the list above which is the model you use (obviously not the headtracker version)? The cheaper or mid?

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dj! (112dB) - Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:18 am

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Okay, you've got me... the cheaper. That's my preferred model, besides I also have a pair of DT531 (also Beyerdynamic) and Sony HDR7506, and during testing used a DT990 and errr... (I've always been terrible at product numbers) some other make/brand that I can't seem to recall right now.

-- dj!

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Mushy Mushy - Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:29 am

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Thats what I wanted to hear.
Beyer and DV will soon have one more DT880 sale this week then

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bmanic - Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:40 am

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That's the problem with HRTF data. It's a general approach and doesn't work for all "head shapes". The brain works in a way that it is used to it's own head shape and thus we all have a bit positioning of our nose, ears etc that causes the information of a general dummy head to sound completely wrong. I'm glad you added the option to turn the effect off.

Cheers!
bManic

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Pule - Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:11 am

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Freq. graph in manual measured with a central button set to zero, or?

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dj! (112dB) - Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:19 am

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With the Distance button set to 0 (so it grays out), yes. Distance was designed to add equalization to the signal so obviously the frequency response won't be very linear with it active.

Take care,

-- dj!

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Pule - Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:59 am

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Thanks for Your reply.
I had in mind central phantom image (M/S), not distance button. If I set central button on -1.5dB, sound becomes thin and sharp and bass is weak. The sound isn't linear any more.

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DuX - Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:15 am

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What are you listening on Pule? I didn't get that impression on my AKG 240DF. I get just the right amount of bass even with -2dB. Actually I prefer ~-2dB more than -1.5dB.

Thanks for including the "distance off" DJEX, much appreciated. I think I'm gonna fork out for this one... I think it could be very useful in some other ways, too... hmmm . Very cool.

Thanks!

and thanks for the really useful demo period.

Cheers!

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Pule - Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:17 am

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HD600 and hi end A class head. amp.
"Distance" doesn't work for me,too.

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eduardo_b - Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:28 am

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So it seems some will find this plug-in more useful than others will. No news here.

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dj! (112dB) - Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:30 am

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One thing I can think of is that the material you're experiencing this with has some phase issue--the Center control does not affect the frequency response in any way. What happens if you set the Center to 0dB but engage Mono?

-- dj!

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mystran - Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:57 am

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I'd bet this is just a question of stereo image in the original audio: if most of the bass is mixed more or less mono (as one would do for various reasons with many modern genres) then cutting the mid-channel will naturally cut the bass as well.. because it lives in the middle.

I suppose one could add a sub-woofer in the model: do a crossover at something like 80-120Hz (or whatever) and only do the processing above the cutoff (and maybe downmix the bass to mono to simulate what happens in a setup where there's a single mono-sub).

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Pule - Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:00 pm

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In mono everything sounds OK, but.... I checked center control with stereo white noise and FFT analyser. When I put center control to -3dB and 30', freq. response is +-10dB?! +-5dB above/below 2 kHz.
When I put center control to zero and 90', freq. response is almost even.

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karhu - Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:38 pm

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briliant! exactly what I expected! finally a tool to check your mixes @midnight with all sleeping neighbours. the translation is almost perfect to me - immediatelly fixed a 4kHz problem in a song I was fighting with for 3 days. sennheiser hd280pro here but with a plugin like this I'm seriously considering akg k701. big fat kudos to 112db! (having so nice memories from Utrecht! )

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dj! (112dB) - Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:55 am

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I don't think you can properly check the frequency response of a M/S processor using stereo white noise. Try a sine sweep or a dedicated analyzer tool like VST Plugin Analizer (http://www.kvraudio.com/get/1287.html) instead, and you'll find the frequency response is flat as a ruler. (In the meantime let me think about the technical reason for this, it's still early and I haven't even finished my first coffee yet. )

Take care,

-- dj!

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Pule - Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:48 am

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DJ

This time I measured MIXED LR channels, and freq. graph. is very even....

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