KVR :: Effects » Saturation plugin [View Original Topic]
There are 55 posts in this topic.

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analoguesamples909 - Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:30 am

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I know its not popular around here but I have got some good use from the Fielding DSP Reviver saturation plugin for Mac mainly due to its ability to gently add 2nd and 3rd harmonic satuartion in separate amounts alias free. I use the 3rd harmonic mostly on drums to give punch and its really useful. Im looking to find a PC version however most seem to lump 2nd and 3rd harmonics together into one process - and this is less good IMO as the 2nd harmonic doesnt impart so much punch and seems to make to signal warmer in a mushy way....any PC VST alternatives?

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hivkorn - Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:51 am

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voxengo tube amp?....

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analoguesamples909 - Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:56 am

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no that is quite different. What Im mainly looking for is a PC VST that can specifically add 3rd harmonic saturation alias free. Take a look:


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hivkorn - Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:22 am

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i'm not sure you will find it.....

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TristezaOrange - Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:01 am

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Well, about a year ago they said that they would make this for PC.

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analoguesamples909 - Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:03 am

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ah perhaps its worth a email...

still....considering the oceans of plugins that seem to be PC only Im surprised there is no direct alternative as yet...I am considering trying the Sonnox inflator...which looks similar in design but again does not seperate the 2 harmonics...

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KingofBeers - Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:41 am

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Not sure which DAW you use, but Cubase 4/5 comes with a harmonics plugin - soft clipper, which can add 2nd - 3rd's just like the plugin you discribe ..as in each one can go from 0-100% seperately, and it sounds very good.

2nd harmonics are tube type simulations and 3rd are Tape if I remember correctly.



All the best.


Cheers.

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CaptainMARC - Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:48 am

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You could try Christortion.

http://www.savioursofsoul.de/Christian/?page_id=8

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sunny_j - Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:56 am

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i've tried that but i did not like the results..YMMV

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analoguesamples909 - Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:00 am

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+1 tried that very rough.

That reviver is actually a nice plugin - shame its so pricey - it would prob be a lot more popular. But it is high quality. I take it I cant just grab a cubase dll....?Im using Ableton. Off topic I have to say having been a harcore Logic user for years Ive started looking around and whilst Live is a lot of fun creatively - Cubase is starting to look like a very comprehensive and attractive package...

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CaptainMARC - Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:58 am

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To be honest I'm not a fan of Christortion myself, but it was the only thing I could think of giving individual control over the harmonics.

But as a previous poster said, third harmonics are generated by magnetic tape. So perhaps you can get the effect you're looking for with a decent tape simulator, there are plenty out there. Ferox by Jeroen Breebaart is pretty cool.

Which reminds me, he also has a "spectrum enhancer" called SEND which can control even and odd harmonics individually. Might be worth a shot.

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mangel1234 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:17 am

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Hi Swan,

Just wanted to make sure that you were aware that the Mac .zip collection of all of my free programs are up and ready for you to download!

http://cdsoundmaster.com/Mac_PC_CDSoundMaster_Free1.zip

Please give them a try and let me know how you like the sound.

Thanks!
Michael

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The Chase - Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:28 am

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Christortion and the other Budde Chebyshev Plug-ins are fantastic; I don't know what else you would be looking for in such a device.

Maybe combine it with modular tricks in your host? I.E., splitting frequencies and only applying it to the low-passed signal.

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whyterabbyt - Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:25 am

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the SoundHack +chebychev plugin perhaps?

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analoguesamples909 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:35 am

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Hi yes thanks Michael - I did see that. Ironically I am just working on setting up a Windows partition on my Mac

Will get round to trying them shortly. While I have you here I wanted to ask something:

I am also interested in the VIntage Tube collection - however frankly - I dont need the amount of options you provide. Just a small bunch of good sounding programs. Is there any way you would put together a Vintage Tube LE package as they are also quite expensive? Perhaps it might generate other sales also...

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analoguesamples909 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:41 am

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Thanks for the suggestions all. Unfornutately those plugins are all far to agressive or I hate to say it unsophisticated than the Reviver. Reviver is very subtle and you can drive it almost full with very little noticeable distortion. It just smoothly and alias free saturates the sound. Its quite expensive sounding (and costing...?!). I have been demoing Sonnox Inflator and it is close enough - although for bringing out punch - Reviver wins due to the fact you can select purely 3rd order harmonics...I have been really surprised by the level of impact 3rd order can give...far exceeds the use of compression for punch on Bassdrums in my use.

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metrosonic - Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:52 am

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Give URS Saturation and SPL TwinTube a go. Each have their place but much like Sonnox Inflator you need to make sure you don't overcook it!

J

http://leftside-wobble.blogspot.com/

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S-N-S - Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:59 am

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psp vintage warmer might be a little usefull too

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cyberworm - Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:24 am

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It one of best in my mind.

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Cooker - Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:36 am

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I really liked that vintage tube le idea of yours

Michael: That library is also really big for me as even I'm still getting to know the free ones you provided us a LE version and later an upgrade to the full would be very very pocket friendly too (actually this could be great for all your librarys)

SWAN808: Can you post an audio example? I'm very curious about what that plug-in does and if I'll like it and can imitate it (like with ozones multiband saturation part). A 0%,50%,100% example would be great.

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brok landers - Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:25 am

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that's wat i was always trying to get into peoples head, with no success, they still think vintage warmer or the ohmforce plugs are saturators(in the sense of what "saturation" meant to be back then):
initially saturation did not mean that you can hear audible distortion.
a good saturation added the hamonics in a way that you we're not precieving the saturation as distortion at all ... it just "somehow" coloured the sound and made it more upfront sounding ... i've yet to see a plugin that really covers that way of applying saturation, most of them just sound way too distorted when applied to the needed ammount, compared to analog devices that provided this ... i.e. a very good tape machine like a rare two inch tube studer ...

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djanthonyw - Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:34 am

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You mean something like this?

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spinedoc - Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:48 am

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Yeah, I would buy a scaled back collection from tube bender as well. Maybe put some LE bundles out for 19.95?

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PromisedLand - Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:25 pm

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I'm also interested in audio examples. I took a look at the demo installer, but they have their own license manager daemon in it and I really don't want to install anything like this just for a demo version.

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mangel1234 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:00 pm

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Swan, Cooker, Spinedoc,

There are fully working FREE programs from each of my libraries for you to use.

There will not specifically be LE versions of individual libraries for less. But, there will be good options for you.

The current going price for PSP Vintage Warmer is $149. The current going price for the Vintage Tube Collection is $59. Anyone that purchases a single library of mine gets an automatic discount.

Comparing PSP V.W. to 1/4th of the Retro Analog Studio Suite in options and in sound quality alone should make the $39 price tag as affordable and within reach as I can imagine.

The Vintage Tube Collection, at $59 ($49 previous customers), is roughly 1/2 the cost of one of the actual tubes within the collection. Add to that creating an original hardware device to properly present, gain stage, and sample all of the actual tubes, and again I can't imagine charging less for an LE version alone. There are FREE programs from the VTC that are perfectly working and real harmonics, not decent fabricated ones. Truly, I cannot afford to provide a collection without the minimal cost already in place.

Tube Bender EQ is not a massive collection; it is a very complex diligent sampling process that I think is my favorite DAW eq to date. Honestly, to take what would be a $199 eq from any competitor and provide anything less for a price that suggests it isn't worth the time and research invested just doesn't make the concept possible to pursue, which would make it impossible for me to invest in bringing these to Nebula.

I hope this makes sense specifically regarding LE versions of individual libraries that are already giving a lot more, at better quality, for a lot less than would come from a competitor. This is a requirement to provide even the possibility of considering spending the hundreds of hours that go into the process.

Here's the good news regarding LE and super cheap reduced price versions of things:

There are going to be combo-packs when the separate combo's are complete, and these will qualify customers for discounts as well. An example of this is that the Vintage Tubes Series is not fully complete yet. There is the Vintage Tube Collection, the Tube Bender EQ, and there are more libraries to complete this collection.

There will always be very affordable combination prices for new libraries combined with earlier libraries. There will also be less expensive combo-packs with fewer programs from multiple libraries, which is like getting a variety of LE's even further reduced, in combination with relevant programs combined.

In addition, there will be a way to get individual programs. This is good for those who want very specific things, don't have the $ for full collections, but also helps me to protect the value of what has gone into the libraries and still give other options.

I hope this makes sense and I do hope you spend some time with all of the free programs. They are for you to enjoy and to use in your projects and I think they will give you a feel for where your budget is best spent. I really appreciate the interest and hope to keep things increasingly more exciting for the Nebula user base!

Many Blessings!
Michael

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TripACT - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:44 pm

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May i suggest an interesting option...not quite sure if it is legal but,
I remember that there's an option to load custom IRs in Tritone Digital's ColorTone plugin. Maybe you could capture an Impulse Response of reviver coloring and apply those IRs within ColorTone plugin...Not sure if in LTI convoultion world you could capture it perfectly and again - whether it is legal or not is left for your to check (email the company and ask them for their permission to do so) but it might be a nice direction.
I do remember i saw lots of IRs of tubes and so on.

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Cooker - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:37 pm

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mangel1234: Very good news about the combo packs!! the LE idea that I had in mind was something very similar to the options you will provide.

Just to mention, specially after trying the free lib.s you sampled I always thought they were very good for the price. Only problem is even though pricing is great, it still doesn't make it easy for some of us to buy them without a little saving Your solution will make things easyer

Also a small request if its ok; Since you are a mastering engineer and currently have alot of experience with sampling tubes, I had an idea that I was thinking about but always forgot to ask you.

I'm a little into ITB mastering. One of the things I can't get with plug-ins I tryed is to have sweet but still open sounding highs with loud masters (of course I'm talking in a professional matter, semi-pro solutions are somewhat already avalible with the plug-in world). After trying whatever avalible, I finally got convinced that this isn't truly possible without tube based hardware (my guess is specially compressors). When I tryed nebula, the free tubes as the effect of what they did gave me some hope that this could actually be possible.

I was wondering if you could make an combo specificly for this matter to your mastering or tube library? I'm just guessing since I don't have experience with hardware in mastering, but what I had in mind was tube presets that are ment to be somewhere in the near end of the mastering chain.

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mangel1234 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:32 pm

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Hi Cooker,

I appreciate what you have to say. I like what you are requesting regarding the sweetening of the high frequencies and tailoring a package from what I develop. I will have to give this some thought. I really care a great deal about people not just getting another 'fill in the blank' when I make something. I want every eq or tube or anything that put time into to be something that is ear-opening and empowering for a mix or master.

There are a few combinations that exist now in the Neb. libraries that I believe can help with this sound you are after. First, the high shelf from the Mastering Suite, which is a special filtering design that I made based on how I go about achieving this sound you are talking about. Next is a few specific tubes in the Vintage Tube Collection. Some settings and actual tubes are more geared towards punchiness and others towards smooth warm drive, and still others towards that glossy, silky sound that is more complex than descriptives seem to do justice for. These and a couple of other things. There are several preamp and eq settings in "Retro" that are helpful with this as well.

When I created the hardware unit, The Source + Plus, it was largely for the purpose you are requesting. There is a combination of events that happen that will always elude people trying to match certain masters when working ITB. I don't think it is impossible, but I do think that every software plug-in I've heard and liked has a certain threshold which beyond that, it sounds fake. I like that this isn't as much an issue with Nebula. With Neb- once you cross it's threshold you are out of bounds regarding intended parameters and it stops working! But, within its capabilities it does not ever sound fake when done right.

With the right high end tube hardware, you can fine tune the sound directly towards the mix you are recording, adding just the right amount of harmonics, frequency, and leveling-type limiting. This type of effect 'grows' the signal. It does not chop off your transient peaks, but makes the whole mix bigger, broader, louder, but no timing change and no fake compression effect. EQ'ing during or after this process or even before- all allows for a completely unique signature sound. Some of this exists in the Tube Bender as well, and can REALLY get the right mix glue along the way.

1. EQ before compressing/limiting/widening/saturating etc. Let's say you do whatever you deem necessary to get a good sounding mix that is together and unified. When getting to the Master, the only way to open up the right amount of dynamic space and fix things without taking away what makes them sound blended together is to start by doing the surgical eq first before any mastering limiting compressing etc. This is why I get concerned when I hear too many prefab preset lists for the 'mastering chain' when mixing a song down. I really don't think you should try to listen for a cohesive mixdown and slam it for a big final mix/premaster if there is any intention of doing a real separate mastering. Perhaps test mixes and premaster tests can use a few favorite chains at master mixdown, but it is so important for focus at that stage to be on bringing the mix elements together. NOT overdoing it at that point is the promise for a great final result.

So, we take the mix and sweep from low to high with a narrow band eq and a brickwall limiter at the end of the chain for monitoring to protect from overloads. When certain frequencies jump way out and especially if they resonate on a good sounding eq, these are potential frequencies that are stealing some of your impact volume and mix energy. Make sure and A/B listen to each stage of changes you make- always leave an opening to do less or nothing at all. Usually you will find several decibels more room in the mix after doing this, and the balance is almost always better with the same mix than it was before this stage. To help with this, I recommend doing comparitive listening on your mastering monitors. Pick 3-5 songs in the genre you are working- choose mixes that are immediately your favorite- go for what is pleasant to your ears not what you think is supposed to be- what you like. It is helpful for modern releases in comp listening- to reduce the level -5dB or so to make sure you are hearing a great mix/master comp and not just a loud one!

2. If the sweetening effect in the highs didn't happen in the mixing stage at all- there are 2 ways to eq for broader "Q" sweetening- before and after comp/limiting. The tubes have a HUGE impact on bringing this sound. Tape can as well Once the high end sounds as you wish, you can tailor whatever comp and/or limiting to the mix. You may want to do deep threshold or parallel mixing to achieve the big effect without losing the right highs. You may want to do a little compression and then add a little sparkle before master limiter.

I will continue to give this some thought and perhaps this is something to consider for a follow-up on the Producer's Pack to address specific mastering tasks. I know it is supposed to be taboo to generalize certain things as important and specialized as the mastering process, but there are things that are done very routinely in specific problem solving scenarios. Sometimes the simpler and more straight forward the tools the better the decision and result.

Thanks for taking the time to mention that!
-M.

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AKJ - Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:39 am

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I suggest voxengo warmifier then, It can get very nice subtle results.
My personal tool of choice, however, for the described purpose is Dominion. It's a transient shaper combined with a saturator and with the right setting it's unbeatable - and free!

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Cooker - Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:32 am

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Thanks for the very guidening post!! I'm familiar to your advices but after reading it realized I have to give further thought for myself on certain approaches and specially with nebula.

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Robin from www.rs-met.com - Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:00 am

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you could try my FuncShaper with the 'ChebychevPolynomials' preset. with this preset, the a,b,c,d paramters control the amplitudes of 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th harmonic respectively. if you use only 2nd and 3rd order, 2x oversampling should be enough to stay clear from aliasing.

edit: small correction: 'a' controls the linear part - so b and c would then be 2nd and 3rd harmonic.

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sunny_j - Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:58 pm

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i've used 3 or 4 plugins with these cheb. polynomials but they all sound harsh to me. maybe they are supposed to sound like this but it is certainly not warm. i like the saturation processor in ozone 4, the "warm" mode. but these plugs sound nothing like that. even t-racks pultec adds even harmonics which sound pleasant..but this is just my opinion..YMMV...

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Robin from www.rs-met.com - Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:41 am

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if my func-shaper was among them, i guess it has to do with the oversampling setting - as said: harmonics up to 3rd order call for at least factor 2 (and in the mentioned preset this is not set up that way - shame on me). without that, aliasing will occur - which gererally sounds somewhat 'cold' (to me, at least).

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Robin from www.rs-met.com - Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:20 am

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by the way: probably people are talking on cross-topics here. the thread title contains the term 'saturation' but saturation is *not* what polynomial waveshapers do. to saturate means to reach a maximum level upon which no further increase is possible - which would call for some kind of sigmoid (s-shaped) transfer function. polynomials on the other hand diverge to plus/minus infinity. no saturating behavior at all. quite the opposite, actually.

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mangel1234 - Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:09 pm

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Cooker, You have a PM.

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Ghettopanda - Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:56 pm

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I had to dig this ancient thread up when seeking one about SPL. I've demoed URS, PSP, BBE, many of these mainstream saturators and harmonic enhancers..

Damn. I don't know about the actual saturation, but the TwinTube harmonics are some sweet ear candy. The Vitalizer plug also works miracles..

Mix Magazine:

Quote:

Bottom line: TwinTube is the best "track warmer" I've heard to date. For the sound of high-quality tube gear being either tenderly used or intentionally abused, this is the real deal.

Anyone looking for sat. plugin, i would recommend this.

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tongsong - Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:40 pm

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robin i like your func-shaper as much as easyQ, there is a preset "tube" and if u adjust to taste, its sounds real good, juz that the GUI has no tube on it

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Robin from www.rs-met.com - Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:05 pm

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nah. no tube artwork. i won't claim it to be a proper tube-emulation anyway. just a transfer-function that was roughly inspired by those of tubes.

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futurefields - Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:27 pm

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focusing eq by softube has an outstanding compressor/saturator built in, you can even set it to keep the lows or highs clean. sounds really good and has a meter so you can tell when its compressing the signal.

also, urs saturation is really good for just saturation but doesn't have the compression that the softube saturation does. i do really like the british transformer model though.

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kobal - Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:45 am

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imo none nail the front to back depth you get with hardware,they sound a bit 2d or fake ,i never forget completely i m using plugins with these saturators

i just tried robin func-shaper and have been surpised with the sound ,really nice ! but i don t get how the formula work ?

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Ghettopanda - Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:49 am

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That is probably true, they're simulation after all. BTW, none of these usual plugs come close to the SPL stuff, I'm in love with this company. SPL MixDream (which i have been drooling) just won the Future Music summing thing, or they said



To my ears, SPL products sound damn elegant and clean. Just found out that the dude who designed the SPL Transient Designer is now working for Elysia, which is another company i love. These things are so top notch. Give me ten grands =)

On the subject, Ferric DOES sound very good too.

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futurefields - Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:26 am

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So you've tried the softube focusing eq, urs saturation, soundtoys decapitator, et all?

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analoguesamples909 - Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:37 am

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ah its my old Saturation thread...

Well after much experimentation my favourite Saturation plugins are:

(drumroll)

Nebula + Tapebooster / Henry Olonga / Alex B PCS presets

SoundToys Decapitator

Softube Focusing EQ (brilliant tool)

Didnt like any of the others - even SPL/URS and other expensive ones...

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Ghettopanda - Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:29 pm

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Softube no, URS and Soundtoys yes. I previously used URS strip which has the saturation built in. Sounds OK, but i think it serves a different purpose than the SPL. Decapitator sounds good to me, but I don't think it does anything you couldn't do with proper eq'ing and compressing. Or who knows.

Ok, enough hype, but my first reaction was "WOW" when i turned the harmonic knob. Oh, it's probably also the GUI which is kinda sexy IMO . It's pretty heavy on Vista (takes 10% of my CPU lol), but I can understand why. Nebula is cool too, but it's even heavier.

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futurefields - Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:24 pm

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the channel strip pro actually doesn't saturate like the actual saturation plugin. they're both made by urs but use different algorithms. the saturation plug is generally viewed as the superior tool for this effect. however I think softube has something with the focusing eq, that's a great mixing tool very analog sounding.

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guppi - Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:17 am

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You have to check Crysonic nxtasy v3. It could be very subtle because of the mix knob And it's 4 band! Till tomorrow 20 $... !

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futurefields - Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:43 am

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I've never cared for using a wet/dry saturation setup. To me it creates the effect of two sounds, you hear a clean sound and a small amount of saturation behind it. I think it takes a higher quality saturation algorithm to saturate 100% of a signal and still have it be a subtle dynamic effect but where you can hear the whole signal going through the preamp. For this reason I don't like wet/dry on saturation. I think crysonic use it to get more mileage out of mediocre algorithms.

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VibraSound - Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:03 pm

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I like the softness control (knee) in GClip.



http://www.gvst.co.uk/gclip.htm

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futurefields - Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:31 pm

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a nice clipper but i would not consider that a saturation plugin

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HunterKiller - Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:05 pm

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Tried that one as well, I got YHWH.

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generalstargazer - Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:55 pm

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so according to this thread all saturation plugins in existence are soo awesome?

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Shy - Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:17 pm

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Yes, because it's KvR. On Gearslutz you'll find that only 1 or at most 2 are pretty good, but $7000 real deals are preferable.

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guppi - Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:44 am

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To me, the algorythm isn't too bad. The concept of multiband k2 + k3 with the mix knob is helpfull. Similar to the Jeroen Breebart Smash Pro but with less CPU consumption.

But there is room for improvement, sure. The best sounding
saturation I've ever heard is the 112 dB Redline Tube Preamp. But this one come's also with a mix knob and it's helpfull too

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Compyfox - Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:39 pm

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Two plugins come to mind:

Melda Productions MEquializer
- can create harmonics for each band, which can also be manually activated/deactivated and shifted by semitones)

C.Budde's ChebishevWaveshaper
- can create up to 24 harmonics on top of the fundamental no matter if positive or negative, or mixed. It's IMO actually more responsive than Christortion.


Maybe one of these tools is the right thing for you?

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lmnop - Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:57 am

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I really love Virsyn Vtape. It just does a great job of softening/saturating things without completely killing the transients. The adjustable flutter is great too.. I set it at about 10:30ish. Decapitator is good too, but it destroys peaks and transients so I only use it occasionally. Vtape is great on the drum buss, gtrs, and even the master buss.

If only Vtape had pre-emphasis like Voxengos Tapebuss it would be the best high freq. transient tamer out there. More plugins should have adjustable pre-emphasis.

For realistic Tube saturation, Predatohm is amazing! Urs Sat is good, but a bit overrated.

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There are 55 posts in this topic.