KVR :: Modular Synthesis » Link: Venom VB-303 VSTi (Beta release) [View Original Topic]
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antto - Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:09 am

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hello everyone, this is my first post on the forum, tho i've been registered for maybe a few years

http://rapidshare.com/files/254612380/VenomVB-303.zip
http://www.box.net/shared/162ot6ot8y
My first Big project!
it is a beta or unofficial pre-release or whatever
there is no documentation yet (tho the synth is not too hard to get going with it)
it requires a CPU with MMX, SSE and SSE2
i hope you send any bug-reports or suggestions to me, while i'm doing the documentation..
the next (official) release will be soon, with the docs, and everything
Example Patterns: http://www.box.net/shared/7ojaszlg75

License: Freeware!
Enjoy!
antto

PS: Excuse me if this is not the right place for the topic

EDIT: beta-documentation provided kindly from xybre
basic guide in working with the beta version, and some tips on programing
check it out here

EDIT: BugFix/Change/Todo (list) for the next version:
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fixed: ClipBoard not being saved with the project
fixed: filter oversampling bug..
fixed: Sequencer Note C0 calls pattern002 (should be 001)
fixed: Sequencer "To All" & "Invert" initial values..
fixed: Sequencer EditPat button being wrong sometimes..
fixed: Sequencer incorrect display of Currently selected Step on INIT
fixed: FreeBee patterns with less than 16 steps were incorrectly considered "wrong" by the sequencer, and thus - not loaded
fixed: FreeBee patterns with lines begining with ";" now considered as comments and ignored.
bug: pattern switching small desync issue <- damn, i can't fix this

changed: Gimmick circuit readjusted (used audio material for reference)
changed: Filters: 303-ladder (thanks to Ken Tomson), modified-moog, at least one more type will be added
changed: Sequencer pattern randomizer, "pitch" is now limited in range c2 to c5 (the range of the original 303 sequencer) tho the sequencer will still have 1 octave more, the whole randomizer was changed, now step length is almost always 4/8, slides are now more probable
changed: Sequencer - Slide to a note with gate-off, the pitch will be ignored now
added: FreeBee pattern Export (StepLength is ignored)
changed: GUI: the small display of the transpose (that shows pluses or minuses) now displays the key and the octave like "D 3" "F#2" ..
changed: filter cutoff envelopes are now accurate, Decay time too
changed: the filter cutoff frequency can now reach ~28KHz (as the original)
changed: distortion now has a nice antialiasing filter, not perfect but far better than nothing
added: Switch (back panel) to keep the current clipboard when loading a NSM file
added: Switch to "restrict" the Next/Prev movement to the length of the pattern (instead of cycling thru the unused steps too)
changed: Sawtooth/Square waveforms now far better than before, square has specific symmetry (PulseWith) depending on frequency, and is not controlled anymore by a knob, but there will be another square type, with manual PW control

todo: improved distortion, more distortion types
todo: Pattern Shift Mode - switch
todo: "Order" modifier will use pattern shift mode too
todo: BackPanel Slider for MoreReso (remember Josh Wink?)
todo: BackPanel Slider/switch for half or twice the Host tempo when sync'ed
todo: better CPU usage when the synth is not playing (an Economy switch on the BackPanel)
todo: better Default preset/parameters
todo: attempt to remove SSE2 requirement and leave only MMX/SSE
todo: additionaly a non-SSE (non-SIMD) version of the synth
todo: Documentation/UserManual
todo: right before i release it, i'll try to select the best patterns i've created during the developement of this synth and put them into one NSM file..


changed: projects made with the beta version (in other words, the VST plugin parameters that are saved in the DAW project) will be incompatible with the new version, better export your sequencer memory to NSM files, i guess the automation will be usable with some clicking, but probably it's DAW dependant and can't guarantee.. and since the envelopes were changed, the new version will sound a little (or more) different from the beta version.. so probably keep the beta somewhere, and don't mesh the two.. use the new one for your new tracks ;]

changed: because of the new changes, the synth will still work at 44100Hz sampling rate, but the minimum _recomended_ sampling rate now is 88200Hz

27-sep-2009: under-construction-release (Beta2)
find it here: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3779367#3779367
read the post first

30-oct-2009: the "under-construction-release" (aka Beta2) has a few bugs with pattern loading

29-mar-2011: all plans for this synth changed, the synth was redesigned, and still under construction
the new Venom VB-303 will be almost like a hybrid between a TB-303, a x0xb0x and a ML303
the biggest change is in the sequencer, which has been completely rewritten, and now it works almost like the x0xb0x sequencer, which makes it possible to develope an almost identical sequencer interface for both this software synth AND the x0xb0x
however, the x0xb0x CPU is very small, it fits 16KB of code, and already i've exceeded it, i couldn't implement even 1/3rd of what i wanted, thus progress has stopped
a new CPU modification is under way for the x0xb0x, it'll replace the CPU with another one which can store about 256KB of code
once i get it and i'm able to continue developement on both sequencers - there will be progress
so far, nothing, i'm still waiting

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S-N-S - Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:32 am

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first off

this looks good,but i dont get any sound at all in renoise 2,1 no matter what i do

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RunBeerRun - Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:33 am

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I don't have any sound either, tried everything.

Cool to see a guy making new sems, although it looks like the old familiar tb-whatever that rebirth is, which has been done infinity times.

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antto - Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:44 am

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damn, i really had to do the docs first
first: the synth is only played thru the internal patterns
if you press a midi key - you start playing a pattern, not the note itself
so make a pattern (either use the Clear button, or the Randomizer) and play it
the default patterns are empty (no gate, no accent, no slide, no nothing)
note: you can load patterns from ABL ;P~

and yes, the whole idea of this synth is to sound like a 303, or at least close, i don't claim anything
personaly, i love the Rebirth bassline, and i've always hated i can't use it in my DAW as a vst..
so i did this ;]
i'm just sharing it now

btw there's a backside panel, and an XY control for Cutoff and EnvMod

please tell me the OS'es and VST hosts you used! it will be very helpful!

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RunBeerRun - Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:39 am

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win vista-savihost

I think some demonstration presets would be great, even if it was cool, I'd never use it like this.

It's your duty to provide presets, and if you don't, I'll strike with everybody in kvr. We demand better hours and free coffee in the mornings.

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antto - Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:49 am

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RunBeerRun: well, there are no presets, the synth stores it's patterns in the VST Patch memory, so loading a preset will spoil you're work
and the whole point in a 303-like synth is tweeking it yourself, that's my opinion..
i could only provide demo-patterns..
thanks

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antto - Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:27 am

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um, anyone figured it out?
i found just one bug with the pattern clipboard, it stores it correctly, but it displays it as free on the next reopen of the project.. thus dissallowing you to paste it..

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sinkmusic - Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:49 am

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Hi
Thank you for sharing your creation.

2 little advices if you want more feedback :
- provide a GUI screenshot in the thread ;
- please consider skipping RapidShare : having to wait 2 minutes before being able to download the file is just a true pain in th _ss. Why not uploading to Stashbox.org or Box.net ?

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antto - Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:02 am

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sinkmusic: thanks for the suggestion, i didn't know a better alternative to rapidshare.. link updated
i added a screenshot of the front panel too (the back panel isn't very interesting)

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geoslake - Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:23 am

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Impressive emulation for a synthedit creation, me think...
Thanks for sharing.

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antto - Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:43 am

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Thanks! i'm currently playing with it in an actual track in my DAW, i love it
here are a few patterns i made while developing the sequencer:
http://www.box.net/shared/7ojaszlg75
they are in the native NSP format (just 41bytes each)
you can load them into the currently selected pattern/slot by pressing the little Load Pattern button, that's in the top-left corner, right below the Keyboard
these patterns are not special, i just liked them and saved them..
there's one pattern from Rebirth, and another from ABL

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VSTJuNkiE - Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:00 am

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I love 303's and FREE ones even BETTER. Although ya should of held onto it for this years DC. Even if ya don't win, ya still have FUN and get some exposure.Thx for tha fr(T)eebee

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antto - Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:51 am

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DC? Developer Contest?
i remember something like this.. haven't checked the when is it..
i had such ideas 2 years ago maybe, when i did my big-fat decimator/bitcrusher plugin, but i realised that it wasn't anything special.. there were other plugins like that one

now i actually did this 303 so i can use it in a track of mine, yes, it waited about 3 or 5 months (not sure exactly) to make the synth, yesterday i finaly was able to reopen the track after this time, and load my 303 in it! i felt so wierd

btw who said SE can't do <nice> synths? well, yeah, the most important modules i did myself, but i didn't write a GUI system as i would have to if i used VST SDK, and i'm a "musician" after all.. at least i hope i am ;P~
anyways..
it looks like there are no OS problems for the most common OSs
the synth was built with SynthEdit "v1.0170 Unicode"
this would never be possible without SE

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sinkmusic - Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:51 am

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Hello

The GUI is very well done, congratulations ! We really feel the attention paid to details, and the love you have for the hardware 303.

Some little annoyances, however :
- Not being able to trigger the sound using a midi keyboard or using a midi clip from the host is a bit sad (i'm not a 303 freak and can't stand the Roland-pattern-seq in software form, as it is damn slow to edit) ;
- Despite being gorgeous, I think the GUI is also very small : it's very difficult to read on a resolution higher than 1024pix ;

I hope it is positive criticism and that it helps, keep up the good work !

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phankiejankie - Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:05 am

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Spend some time yesterday playing with it. First impression is that this new silver box clone is solid. You can make patterns and sounds beyond what the 303 could due to the additional features while retaining the 303 feel and I like that.

Soundwise I can't say how close it is to the original but it certainly has the trademark 303 characteristics. My only two concerns so far is the very small GUI and that the sound "struggles" on higher resonance (especially with a square wave and heavy distortion) and even in x4 oversampling it comes out a bit on the "cheap" side.

In general though this is a very nice plugin and enjoyed my time a lot tweaking it. Keep up the good work, thumbs up! I will continue mess up with it and post any issues I may find.

Ps: Some pattern presets would help people a bit too since at first you just think this vsti makes no sound

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antto - Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:25 am

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sinkmusic: it is positive, i want to improve it as much as i can
if you play a melody with midi notes - you will not get the 303 sound
it will sound like a very dumb kiddie synthie.. believe me!
when i started the project, it didn't had a sequencer, if someone told me that 2 months later i was going to make a sequencer for it and remove the normal-midi-playing mode - i wasn't going to believe him..
the sequencer was pretty hard to do.. i had so much problems at first
the decision was hard to drop the "normal" mode and leave only the sequencer to play the synth but it's the only way you can get a 303 sound
i am pretty sure that you can't make a 303 pattern with a Piano roll with only Velocity and portamento in a normal DAW
the sequencer actually looks at the previous and next steps to figure what to do in the current step.. it's really complicated, so i did it once, now you just use it and 303 sound is done easy for you
it isn't really easy to make a pattern, i know
but when you make it - it sounds right! and btw, save your most precios patterns as NSP files, so you don't loose them accidentaly (and don't use presets!) or if you've done a lot of patterns, you can save the whole sequencer memory too, at once

i'll try to well-document these things and provide tips too

GUI too small - yes..
actually the knobs, the LCD-digits, the screws, and the cables on the back panel, were rendered in 3dsmax to look realistic.. everything else i did in MS Paint, including the fonts..
i'm not even sure how i made it fit inside that small rectanlgle! i didn't had any plan or idea how it has to look like, i just started with the sequencer part and i added more stuff while making the GUI (that i had to add before that but didn't had the ideas then)
so, the GUI was a hard job, i really don't think i will touch it again too much, i work on 1024x768 resolution, on a 17" monitor, i guess it'll look bad on higher resolutions.. i also hate working with HUGE GUI vsts since i have to move them to turn a knob..

tho if that is really a problem, i can try to think of something..

one thing i will do for the next release, is a non-SSE version of the plugin, so users can decide which dll to use depending on their CPU, i wanted to try the synth on my old machine but it has no SSE.. i had a C000001D external exception in FruityLoops3.56 there (windows98SE) tho the plugin was able to extract the SEMs, which tells it would run if it wasn't for the SSE code, amazing

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RunBeerRun - Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:48 am

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Sounds good, it's a slam dunk!

although I like realtime performance, so I can't use it.

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antto - Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:56 am

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i don't know how close it sounds to a 303 (i'm sure there are differences)
the closest i can get to a real 303 is youtube and the articles of people who had the real thing.. these were my sources of inspiration..
mostly i used my ears to decide whether it sounds OK or not
another thing that was very important to me: i wanted to do a "classical" 303 while at the same time, i was tempted to add crazy stuff like 2 oscilators or more, different waveforms, different filters..
so i tryed to find some balance between the two, i made everything switchable, tunable, so if someone wants a little bit more gimmick - he can just turn the knob up..
i configured the default preset to have the settings that are as close as possible to a classical 303.. - osc2 off, 24dB filter, no distortion, PW for the pulse a little bit like 98% and not 100..

i think everyone can judje for theirselfs if it sounds close to a 303 or not, it does to me (i wanted a bit more from the filter, but i just don't know enough dsp to use negative feedback from the last pole)

GUI too small - argh.. i'll think of something really, time is the only thing that's against me, and i can't beat it

the filter goes into overdrive with high resonance (it doesn't sound like it is, since it isn't aliasing, but it can't be since it's x4 oversampled all the time)
the optional x4 oversampling switch on the back panel is only for the oscillators, it makes sence to use this only if you load a "hacked" pattern that has notes on really high octaves, <or> if you use Pulse waveform with low values of PW..
only in these 2 cases there is any sence of using the osc oversampling..

yes, the distortion aliases when pushed too far
especially the foldback
i really can't do anything about that..
one thing is sure, you'll get more aliasing if you use an external Hard clipper than if you use the internal, since at least the internal is fed with the (always) 4x oversample output of the filter..

one thing that was very hard with this filter, was to make it sound the same on different Sampling Rates, as much as possible
i am no pole-zero expert, i used brute-force methods to get the coefficients out of the filter <evil laugh here>
after i tuned it so the resonance level looks the same on the whole range, i tuned it again against frequency.. these are two different things, and i think i did it ;]
this was very important to me too..

Patterns? http://www.box.net/shared/7ojaszlg75
check them out.. there's one that uses variable step lengths, and it sounds a bit funky/wierd/shuffly

i'm really glad to see people finding this useful. thank you for replying!

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Kriminal - Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:17 pm

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thecontrolcentre - Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:25 pm

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Thanks for sharing, Antto ... downloading for later.
GUI looks great

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thecontrolcentre - Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:28 pm

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Took a while to suss how to get audio out, but I've got it working in Live8 now (I hadn't realized the default patterns were blank ). This is a really good emulation ... GUI is a bit too small, but I like the sound, and switching between patterns using midi keys is neat. It works well with Automap too. I haven't worked out how to write my own patterns yet, so the random button is very useful

Thanks again (looking forward to seeing some documentation).

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antto - Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:45 pm

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Kriminal: if you want to say something - why not just say it?

thecontrolcentr: thanks!
to ptogram a pattern actually is not quite a big deal, Clear one, so you get all gates to ON
then use Back/Next (Step) to move thru the pattern, by default you can press any button for a step without activating some wierd timing mode or anything
select a key, probably transpose Up/Dn (the little screen with the pluses and minus is the octave actually)
click on any Gate/Accent/Slide button, probably change the StepLength (default is 4/8 = 0.5) and when you're ready - move to the next step
there are some functions for really fast "global" pattern manipulation but i have to document them really
just in short - "To All" "Invert" "Target" "Go!"
these buttons/switches are in a section at the bottom of the panel
for example you have the horrible idea of setting all the accents to ON, for the whole pattern
normaly, you press Next, and click on the Accent, then repeat untill the end..

a faster way:
set only the current step's accent to ON
set the Target switch to "A" (the display shows "Accent")
press the "To All" button Down - a little "A" will light on the display, right before "Accent" showing that Accent has "To All" function, and is set
be sure that the "Invert" button is not Down too..
whell, now just press the Go! button
all the steps will get the same value for Accent, as the current step

well, that wasn't very short.. so anyway..
if all Gates are Off, and you want to turn them ON
you could just select "G" for Target (display shows Gate now)
then press down the Invert button, and ensure the "To All" button is not pressed too
press Go!
all Gates for the current pattern will be inverted

if you select Pitch as a target - you can only use the "To All" function
it will clone the Pitch of the current step to all others in the pattern
if you press the Invert button - the display won't show the "I" before "Pitch" because it's unavailable for this target.. how do you invert a midi note ;]

and the most fun part:
pressing both the "To All" and "Invert" buttons for any target (and then pressing Go!) will result in Unpredictable Behaviour on that target (randomize !)

i did a lot of good patterns starting of with something either dumb, or just Random, and then using the "To All" + "Invert" combo to randomize the things that i didn't like in the pattern
well, most of the time, i did some final touches, but i got the inspiration from the randomizer..
even only randomizing or inverting the order of the steps can change the pattern so much, that it becomes almost a new one.. and that's done only with about 4 clicks ;]

when you are about to try some function that you're not sure what it does, and your pattern is precious, you can simply Copy it, instead of saving it to a file (more clicks)
the pattern is really copied into the clipboard, so even when you modify it afterwards, you can paste it over, it'll be the same as when you copied it
but it appears there's a little bug with the initialization of the copy buffer, it get's "cleared" when the plugin is reopened (when you save your project, and then reopen it in the DAW)
so still saving patterns is the safest way to keep your good ones safe from accidental harm

hope this throws a bit light on making patterns

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antto - Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:09 pm

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ok, there's a "Alt Prog" button (actually a switch) right next to the Back/Next (step) buttons
you may wonder what it does..
it is nothing special, it just automaticaly presses Next (step) for you, when you select the Key (on the keyboard)
i'm not sure if it's going to be useful and that's why it's Off by default
the idea is that you could enter the keys on the keyboard very quickly, without clicking the "Next" button all the time
set the Transpose, Acc/Gate/Slide and Step Length, right before hitting the Key, since it will move to the next step
really not special, but could be useful sometimes

EDIT: i just found a bug (in FLStudio, but it'll be probably the same with other DAWs too)
the lowest note in the Piano Roll is C0 and should correspond to Pattern-1
as well as the highest C9 to the last Pattern-120
i've probably forgot to check this, since i get Pattern-2 on C0, silly bug

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Z3R0T0N1N - Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:52 pm

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Hi
[edit] forgot to mention host: EnergyXT 1.41; I will post results in others as I try them. Since this is my host of choice, and it is no longer developed, I am very happy to find it works flawlessly [/edit]

This thing is great

I love the GUI, too. 'Course I'm using a 22" monitor! But wow, I just love the whole synth. I like the 303 style pattern editor a lot. There is something about composing in that strange, mechanical way that seems to result in patterns that sound better to me. The accent and slide are very well implimented.
I like the PW control, at first I was like, "that's not a 303 square..." and then saw the pulse width Nice.

Beautiful job on this. Sounds great, looks great, fun to use.

cheers

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Z3R0T0N1N - Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:37 pm

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@antto: re: fl-studio , if I remember correctly, fl might have the root key set differently to many other hosts. I could be wrong, but it seems to me I have been tripped up by key names in FL more than once. Might want to double check.

cheers

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jmh - Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:13 am

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Don't mind him, he just wanted to point out that he's jealous when someone else makes a better, more complex 'inspired by' synth in SE than him and gets some positive attention. There's something about these grumpy brits...

Nice work, especially with the extra features and GUI

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:32 am

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Z3R0T0N1N, jmh thanks guys ;]
well generaly SE synths should work in <all> hosts, this is thanks to Jeff
i just wasn't sure about my modules.. it appears they work too

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Nahkranoth - Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:29 am

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Though it's your first post here, antto, I've got your really cool bitcrusher from somewhere (forgot the name tho)
[EDIT]For the life of me I can't figure how to load patterns, there may be bug or something. When I press the "LOAD" button nothing happens, but "SAVE" works fine.
[EDIT2] Ahh, it requires SSE2 too, so it may be the problem...

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:42 am

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Nahkranoth D-BD/SR-D2 ? you probably got it from the SEG downloads section, i haven't uploaded it anywhere else..
btw i believe it has a bug in the decimator accumulator, sometimes i think it "explodes" when it's disabled-reenabled by (for example) SmartDisable in FLStudio, tho i'm not sure

Load button doesn't work but Save button works?
- the sequencer is locked!
check the "Pat Edit" button that's on the bottom-right corner of the panel (it has a red led)
when it's OFF, then you can't modify the current pattern, you can't load (because it would overwrite it) you can't paste/swap, you can't change keys/gates/accents/slides, nothing, you can only save/copy
this switch is useful when you're sure you won't modify the patterns but will continue to work on your track, and probably automate the plugin, then this could prevent accidental "noo, not that button! noooo!" cases ;]

tip: don't modify patterns while the DAW is changing the notes (it'll switch to another pattern and you probably didn't intent that)

the input to the plugin should be polyphonic, the host shouldn't make glide/portamento, this is done by the synth's internal MIDItoCV..

when you load a pattern, it is checked first, it's copied to the pattern slot only if the sequencer *thinks* the pattern is not incorrect/bad

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Nahkranoth - Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:48 am

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Oh yeah! No wonder I forgot the name
The led is lit no matter if the button is on/off.
The pattern number is -1 if it matters.
VSTHost and MiniHost don't display any error messages, but Renoise demo throws an error message. So I'm guessing it's an SSE2 issue, because the PC I'm testing it on has SSE, not SSE2.
Will check it at home, I'm hoping to get it working

P.S. Wonderful GUI, as in bitcrusher too, but some switches are hard to use because of the size (when you think you grabbed 'em with mouse you may be wrong).

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:08 am

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hm.. i think this is another bug, when reloaded, i guess it doesn't display properly that it's locked (led is lit)
turn it off, then back on, should be correct then, damn little init bug ;]
btw the -1 is the index of the pattern in the Clipboard, not the Current pattern..
the current pattern and current step (and the pattern length) are in the 3 displays on the left side
ClipBoard shows -1 when it *thinks* there is no pattern in it (and thus, prevent's you to paste/swap)

if you don't have SSE2 (or SSE) i think the plugin will crash instantly

well, i followed the advices from the D-BD/SR-D2 - "it's too dark"
btw the horizontal switches - you can grab the whole rectangle, not just the handle
you may think you haven't grabbed it, since you have to move the mouse alot to make it move to the next position..

bugs are revealing themselfs, that's good ;]

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Nahkranoth - Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:52 am

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stupid me
Still hoping to get it working at home

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sinkmusic - Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:08 am

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Hello

Congratulations for programming your own SEM.

I noticed a typo : "Venom pattern sequencer".

Maybe that the beautiful but somewhat empty back panel could be used for some basic advices (such as "how to make a sound") ?

About the GUI size : on my 1280x1024 screen, the GUI is small, and it is sadly unusuable on my 1540pix wide laptop screen...

About the stepsequencer : i know that in order to get the classic 303 sound you have to use the stepseq, but for different stuff, it can be nice to get rid of the HW limitations sometimes, when it allows you to get a sound quicker... Maybe an optional trigger mode switch ("stepseq/keyboard") ?

One note about the cpu usage : i notice it is quite high (around 8% here), and when i stop th ehost's playback, the cpu usage stays around 5%.

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Nahkranoth - Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:16 am

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+1

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:37 am

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hah! really dumb typo.. silly me

the empty space on the back pannel is reserved for probably a few more switches that i wanted to add but i forgot (like 2 levels of Max Reso (one that's fair, and the other - extreme) and so on..)
also probably something new that i may come up with before the next version
and ofcourse - some Ventilation holes ;P~
i will explain everything in the documentation, don't worry

GUI: the GUI takes a lot of hard work with the Magnifier + Pencil and i'm not sure if i'll change it.. just imagine if i make all the chars that are 3x5 - 5x5, i would have to rearange everything.. and the layout will be extremely different (and it'll be quite a pain for me, again)

Sequencer: well, as i mentioned, at first i didn't even dream to have a sequencer in the synth, i never did such a thing before
anyways i hated how fake the patterns sounded..
then i started reading about patch memory in SE_SDK2 and i said - what the hell, i'll try, besides, with this poor sound (the fake patterns) i just don't see a reason to continue with it.. it doesn't sound good to me at all
then when i finaly did the most significant features/functionality of the Seq, and when i played a pattern with it, i said - holly cow! that's acid!
then i decided to just put a switch for External or Internal sequencer.. (external = midi notes)
and a little bit later i had a big problem..
i had to either drop the internal sequencer, or drop the external..
guess what i decided to do.. ;]

there are other 303-like-synths out there, that have both internal and external sequencing modes..
and in my opinion, as a "musican" i could spend some more time to program my pattern, because i want it to sound good, not to throw some notes on the Piano Roll and say "well, it doesn't sound too bad"
..and i would have to rearange the whole synth's circuits to make external sequencing possible.. it'll run even slower then

i'll do a backup of the synth now, and start making changes/bug fixes, i got enough information to begin with ;]

edit: CPU Usage:
i know it's high.. i did my best to optimize my C++ code, bad thing is i have no clue of inline assembly.. i would like to have, but it's too far for me yet
even when you stop the synth, the oscs still run, i've put the Volume Envelope (VCA) before the filter, but i forgot (eeek) to make the oscs turn off when they see Volume 0
and i have to do some stuff so they keep the phases correct, so when they are awaken later - the phases will be the same as if they were running silently
i'll try to do that..
otherwise, the CPU usage is high, because the circuit itself is quite big for a small synth like this.. and the whole sections between OSC > VCA > FILTER > DISTORTION are 4 times larger (because of oversampling)
and the 4x oversampling is vital for the filter, i can't (don't want to) change that ever..
i know i really need asm in here.. and manual SSE code, not to hope that the compiler will do some SSE magic..

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thecontrolcentre - Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:38 am

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Thanks for the programming tips, Antto ... really helpful

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:18 am

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thanks! ;]
btw i would love to hear a nice acid track with this synth, so you guys please let me know if you make one ;]
i still don't have enough time to make some music actually..

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Kriminal - Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:32 am

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ok, as you didnt get the quotes...


do you know what a 303 sounds like or not? or are you just trying to emulate an emulation?

we already have at least 2 good 303 emu's with sequencers that sound and look much better than your product, and im guessing the devs do actually know what a 303 sounds ike

also, telling someone they NEED a seq to get the sound 'or they sound like kids' or whatever you said, is so insulting its not funny...its incredibly easy to program virtually any synth to sound like a 303 in a basic sequencer, but as you only have youtube to go by, you wouldnt know that would you.

ciao

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Kriminal - Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:35 am

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Hey GOL, go f**k your self cuntlips

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Z3R0T0N1N - Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:43 am

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he was speaking about the earlier version of his synth - that it sounded bad when externally sequenced. Not that someone else's music sounds bad.

Not sure why you are being so negative about it though, yes there are some good emus out, but they are quite pricey.
And I don't really see why that should mean that he just shouldn't bother. You made an EDP inspired synth, and there's one of those already, a free one even. Yes, yours is a gnat (inspired) the other is a wasp, but really, nobody said why do you even bother there is already daHornet. No, they said, "thanks, Krim, nice of you to go to the trouble" (paraphrasing).

I don't know... I take your point about emulating an emulation, but this thing sounds bloody brilliant for an acid synth, is FREE as opposed to the very expensive other emus out there (which have the pattern seq anyway) and the internal sequencer does a bang up job at getting that feel, which (perhaps I suck, I don't know, but I have heard rather accomplished techno artists say the same thing) I just can't seem to nail with a piano roll. Once you get used to the 303 style pattern seq, it's very quick and easy to come up with wicked riffs.

well, that's my opinion anyway.

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Kriminal - Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:57 am

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edit: nevermind, better things to do.

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thecontrolcentre - Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:58 am

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WTF

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:00 am

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yes, i'm quite sure i know how a 303 sounds.. i've listened to a lot of tracks
i've listened to comparisons between TB-303 and other clones/emulations, including software ones..
and no, i don't have a real 303, nor a hardware clone of it.. and i'm quite sure i will never do..
so, i know how it sounds like, but i don't know how it looks on a graph/oscilloscope, and i cant input an impulse to the filter to see the response.. some of the developers in other companies had such a chance and probably did an "emulation" quite good



sure they do, they probably got money to do research..
and in my opinion, there are 3 really good software emulations out there
1 that is freeware but it's not a VST, another that isn't quite freeware
and the other is more like TB+devilfish, and it's not quite freeware either
nothing wrong with that, the companies invested money, and a lot of effort to do really good emulations, i respect that
i don't claim i've done an "emulation" my synth is sort-of-a-303
TB-303 doesn't have 2 oscs, neither PW, nor built in distortion, right? so i just can't say my synth is a clone/emulation, i can't! it is not!
i hope you get this clear ;]



i didn't mean to insult anyone, either i didn't express myself correctly, or you interpret my post differently than i do..
btw, english isn't my native language, sorry for that..
i got a question here.. have you heard how the original TB-303 sounds when played with an external keyboard? have you?



then why do people pay for the expensive software 303 emulations, or even the more expensive hardware clones, or even buy an old cracked up original TB-303..?
i can argue with that last statement of yours..
there are some things in the 303 sequencer that you won't find in any other synth.. believe me
and even if we imagine for example that the 3xOsc in FLStudio, had the exact same filter and waveshape of the 303.. NO, you couldn't make a 303 pattern using only the PianoRoll with velocity.. not to mention the accent and the gimmick effect, and the slides.. you _can't_
prove me i'm wrong, would you? ;]
i don't mean to insult you, or anyone, but i believe that you are saying things that you haven't got exactly an idea of..

thanks for the criticism anyway ;]

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thecontrolcentre - Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:08 am

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:29 am

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let me say things simpler:
if you remove the sequencer of a 303, then you got something like a synth with Gate, Velocity, Pitch inputs
the synth could only guess the accent, if the Velo is above some level - there's accent
that's all it can do!
so, it will be up to _you_ to make everything else
first of, you won't be able to make the pattern in the PianoRoll to look the way it would look like in the 303 sequencer
when you have a slide on step3, the 303 sequencer does some decisions depending on the next (and i believe, somehow on the previous) step.. in a very specific way
but that's easy, since the sequencer is a _machine_ that is what it does it's lifetime!
if _you_ had to do the same things in the PianoRoll all the time (tho some of them are impossible) - you would be pissed of after programing about 10 or more patterns
not to mention that you have to learn these specific details that the sequencer does.. that's a job for a machine, not for a human!
it's like a human doing what a list.sort() algorithm does..
i hope you don't get me wrong here

so.. again, i am not saying that my sequencer works exactly like a 303 sequencer, no, i can't tell that
but it is close, i'm not sure how close, the thing is, it sounds like Acid to me, that's what's important ;]


exactly!
there was a moment when i though that this would be a nice synth, but poor 303 imitation, no chance for it to even be called "sort-of-emulation"
then i stopped working with the filters and envelopes and oscs, and began work on the sequencer
then when i finaly routed it in, i had the chance to play the synth with either Keyboard, or Sequencer (and i believed the synth is a poor imitation then) ..until i heard what the sequencer does
believe me, there is a huge difference, i started jumping around.. it's _so_ different! i said "omg it's making my synth go ACID" so this is what's the difference between external, and internal 303-sort-of sequencer ;]

EDIT: there's a really solid reason why i don't plan to implement external (keyboard) sequencing again after i made an internal sequencer
now i understand why it is not possible to sequence <acid> with a Common DAW's PianoRoll..
so if you think for a moment what the sequencer has to do, to make these simple steps in the pattern, turn into a wicked acid riff, then you would prefere to use the pattern editor..
it might be difficult, but it's actually a lot easier to "tell" the sequencer you want true Acid sound, then to try do it yourself with a PianoRoll..
..the synth may squelch, may do the gimmick effect, but people could tell something is wrong with that riff there..

i would never bother trying to make acid with a piano roll! ever!

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jmh - Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:47 am

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Like I said earlier, ignore that sad excuse of a "developer" and his antics. He gets his knickers twisted every so often that it stopped being funny years ago.

It's best not to feed his fantasies by replying to his nonsense, as you've witnessed already.

Some things never changes in this forum, trolls being one of those things.

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:54 am

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jmh: i hope he reads my posts then, and try to answer the questions i asked him, at least to himself.. ;]
i can't be passive in such a situation..

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VSTJuNkiE - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:08 am

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Baiting, trolling and general negativeness are some of Krims' fav activities. Love em' or hate em'. Best to concentrate on your bug fixes and making yur plug-in even better than to waste time going back an forth with him.

@ Krim,

I guess your "nice" streak iz over, eh?

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Z3R0T0N1N - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:28 am

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I had wondered... I was like, what's wrong with Krim' lately... he's either off his meds, or on them, not sure which... but he's just not himself!

well, he's clearly back.

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grymmjack - Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:04 am

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i dunno, i like the silverbox TB-303 best, it's got a great sequencer, it can play as a synth (which actually sounds good IMO), and it also sends MIDI out. not to discredit your work OP, just that i think silverbox when played as a regular synth sounds pretty damned good, and it lets me program the stuff in my hosts sequencer that way, including whatever i want to tie it to; for example in orion silverbox played in 'normal synth' mode, is sweet because i can modulate the cutoff, res, etc, right in the orion piano roll using the pattern events which means i can see exactly where the note lands what the value will be for the parameter and because orion RULES the grid snapping and value adjustments can be super duper fast and easy to work with - way more than trying to do it by hand take after take etc.

this is just one example but there are others. ABL2 also does this "synth mode" with even greater flair as you can hit harder for automatic accents and if you hold down two notes one then the other in legato fashion, it glides and honors the envelopes in ABL2.

so i think you are wrong OP about "synth mode" being kiddie sounding for a TB303 plugin. that said, i've not tried yours yet because i own both of the former plugins i just mentioned, but also because (no offense) i don't need another 303 especially one that is only pattern mode. any host with rewire could use rebirth the same way so i just dont see the point for a pattern only product?

post some audio demos, there is a site kriminal posted before that does a shootout against all the 303 plugins, you might be interested in it. kriminal i dont have the url handy could you repost it?

great design on the interface even if a little small and rigid to the original boxes hardware UI (one of the best parts of silverbox OVER ABL2 is the fact that he doesn't require that overly limited sequencer with step hardware buttons and all that jazz - you draw in a piano roll to make your pattern, which is a welcome improvement to save time and frustration)

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Kriminal - Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:29 am

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unlike your mother, who get them twisted so very often



indeed, like a certain sad excuse of a "developer" and his antics

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Cordelia - Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:37 am

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antto,
Thanks so much for this. Downloading it now, will play it this afternoon.
I personally enjoy the groovebox step sequencing style. I have plenty of other synths I can trigger from the piano roll. Something about an included sequencer makes me create bass lines I wouldn't otherwise.
Rewiring Rebirth is a PITA, many other emus are expensive. This is a welcome gift.
Thanks, looking forward to using it. I'll report back any issues I find.

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novaflash - Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:00 pm

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3mn test...

Nice GUI, but too small on my big screen.
Crash with chainer(1) not with minihost.

(1) it's the 1st time i've a crash when loading a VST.

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:17 pm

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grymmjack: thank you for this reply..

well, i'm not sure i know the synth you're talking about
maybe it does sound OK when played with the keyboard, but one thing is sure no matter what: you would have to write your patterns differently in a PianoRoll then in a step sequencer
i'll give you an exact example:
assuming there's the normal time mode, where 16 steps are placed in four beats, so there are 4 steps per beat, and the Gate of each step is normaly half the length of the step..

step2 C3 + Gate + slide
step3 D3 (no gate, no slide)
sequencer starts reading step2:
since step3 has no gate, and no slide - the pitch will remain C3
but the gate will continue even on step3, and will fall down half the way between step3 and step4

step2 C3 + Gate + Slide
step3 D3 + Gate (no slide)
sequencer reads step2:
since there is Gate on step3, the sequencer will start sliding the pitch from C3 to D3, and this starts from step2! and ends right when step3 begins

you see?
i think you can't normaly make a slide from step16 to step1 in your pattern if you're doing it in a Piano roll, since if you extend step16 to be 2 steps long, then your DAW will think the pattern is 17 steps long
am i wrong?
also, to make the equivalent of a slide on step1 you would have to move step2 almost over step1..

things get even more complicated when we mention the Accent too
the sequencer has to know about (at least) 2 steps (this, and the next), so it's actions depend on 3*2=6 boolean variables
the main problem with the PianoRoll thing is that there's no way for it to know what'll be the next step, so the only solution is to think of it like a sort-of-delay (like casual filters)
i'm not saying it's bad or useless that others have that external sequencing mode, no! it's good
but i believe people searching for better 303 sounds will prefere using the internal sequencer (doesn't matter which emulation they use)
that's in my oppinion
note: i'm not saying you can't make a 303 sounding pattern with external sequencing, you can! but not always, and you have to do it differently (casual)
i hope you understand what i mean

i threw away the external sequencing mode for my synth, because the circuit would have to be more complicated.. also the CPU usage would go higher
there's no other reason

about the modulation.. i'm not sure i understand what you're talking about..
something like the FLStudio cutoff/reso values for each note in the PianoRoll?
i used my synth in just one track for now, the track itself need a lot of work (it's not even finished)
i did some automation simply by recording it.. pressing the Record button and FLStudio records my knob movements, it's really simple, i guess other DAWs have similar feature to this


actually i meant a slightly different thing
think of what is inside a software emulation of the 303 for a moment
on the one hand there is the synth itself (a trivial circuit of the from OSC>VCA>FILTER)
then there are two EGs that are somwhat different that any other EG circuits
first, there is a mechanism to compare the velocity, to tell the EGs if there is Accent, or not
then the EGs act differently upon that
so now, so far this is a "synth" that has Pitch/Velo/Gate
pluging a keyboard with velocity sensable keys (how do you call them.. erm) then you will hear a silly sound out of it

the software emulators that have External sequencing mode don't do it like that
they have another mechanism right after the keyboard, to fix the sillyness
it is half a sequencer..
it tryies to do what the sequencer does but with an unknown "next step" probably using the current as "next" and the previous as "current"
but that's hard to do, and it means also, that the user behind this keyboard should better know how the "mechanism" expects the input, to be able to play it right to get the right sound

hm.. really difficult to explain these details
just believe me, external and internal sequencing are different
to make the synth act well with the external sequencing is hard (gotta make a good mechanism, and the user has to be careful)

audio demos? well my ugly unfinished track, tho it doesn't concentrate on the 303s, they are very quiet in there..
http://www.box.net/shared/0ktj0tcijs
the first one is distorted, the second one isn't but actually can't be heard clear ;]

i spent a lot of time with the GUI too, thanks ;]

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:25 pm

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Hi novaflash ;]
i'm guessing you have SSE and SSE2, and it didn't crash because of that (you were able to load it in the other host?)
then i have no idea why it could crash, probably my modules ;]
have you used other SE VSTs with modules from SE_SDK2 in that host?

GUI too small: hehe, btw, your synths are too big on my monitor ;]
<erm, not only yours>

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:29 pm

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ok, i understand why i was warned.. will (try to) ignore him ;]

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sinkmusic - Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:41 pm

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Antto, there is one thing i don't get :
why do you want to stick so much with the emulation side of things when it comes to the step seq restrictions, while you have implemented a lot of nice genuine additional features on the synth side of your plugin (which are not on the hw silver box : a second osc, various distortions, multiple filterslopes, etc etc) ?

I know that with a host's piano roll, i can't make a convincing 303 pattern, but also, with a "real" 303, i don't have a 24db filter slope, 2osc, etc.

Well, don't get me wrong : of course, it is all up to you, it is your creation, and the project design decisions are all yours, but i am a bit surprised by the amount of persuasion you put trying to convince people that it will be more "303 accurate" to restrict the triggering/sequencing features, while you already have put your synth on steroids, far from a "simple" 303...

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novaflash - Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:43 pm

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"then i have no idea why it could crash, probably my modules ;]"

i think there is a "demo" from xlutop chainer

"have you used other SE VSTs with modules from SE_SDK2 in that host? "

i don't know if exist a public vst based on the new SE SDK2.

my CPU : athlon xp2200

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:47 pm

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good question
to me, the 303's characteristics can be heard even if you turn the Reso OFF completely
this is due to the sequencer
i've added extras on the synth side, but they are OFF by default or are meant for "tuning" (like the PW, some say the 303 square is not perfectly symmetrical, i believe that too)
as i said, i wanted 2 things at the same time, 1) to try making something as close as possible to the "real thing" (don't shoot me here) and 2) to add NITRO ;]
i had to find some balance.. so that's it..

then i should put this line to the <system> requirements: "a user with desire to program the patterns, instead of playing the synth"
a lot of people pay big cash for the real thing (tho it's used 2nd hand or worse) and i've read the manual.. it would be a real pain in the a$$ to program it! all the software emulations with internal sequencers are just toys compared to the original 303 programing
and still people pay for it and adore it

i think programing ABL or ReBirth, or Phoscyon, or my synth, is fair enogh compared to that
and all of these synths provide (including mine, i hope) the ACID sound that you are probably seeking when turning to a 303 emulation in the first place

in general, it will be hard for me to make the "mechanism" i mentioned earlyer so my synth can sound comparably good in external seq mode
it will make the synth run slower, it will take me a lot time to implement it
and then, i probably won't use my synth, because ABL (for example) does a better job with less CPU usage

ReBirth with ReWire? hm.. i haven't tryied it.. it could work

novaflash: i meant, have you loaded other VSTs that were exported from SE 1.0170 and used 3rd party modules created with SDK2 (note: the *new* SDK3 modules do not run on 1.0xxx version at all)
thanks, i'll do some googling

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Z3R0T0N1N - Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:01 pm

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why so many people trying to convince antto to make this synth externally played? there are already SO MANY simple VA synths out there which can be played with your host's piano roll. Not every synth has to have the same features. If you really don't like the step sequencer, then download TAL's Bassline, and just use one oscillator. Problem solved. Single osc VA played with piano roll

I understand that this is a different way of writing a bassline than many are used to, but there is a very good reason that he spent the time and effort writing the sequencer code. I think he has explained it enough times now... no?

With the sheer magnitude of free and inexpensive VA's available that Don't use a step sequencer, surely there must be enough options that antto can make one that does, and not have to change it to be just like all the others.

Honestly, it might seem a bit odd at first, but learning to use this step sequencer is SO worth it, trust me. Put a bit of time in, you won't be dissappointed.

...and if you are, then switch to one of the 1,000,000 other VA bass synths out there instead of trying to convince antto to make his wicked little synth into the 1,000,001st.

note: turn on auto advance, it makes it faster for some things.

PS: Grym, just a question: doesn't silverbox have glide and accent built in to the piano roll? If I remember correctly, the piano roll for silverbox is slightly different from the others, specifically because it's a 303 inspired synth. I could be wrong, the last time I used Orion was version 1.

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:55 pm

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did you mean SpectralHead Audio's SilverBox? ;]
if that's so, that's a synth made by Peter Schoffhauzer, a guy who i admire, and who helped me a lot in understanding DSP and SE_SDK2
and yes, the Synth has a unique PianoRoll sequencer, that is NOT like an external PianoRoll
i would like to have such a PianoRoll on my synth too (would makes things even simpler) but would really need to code my own display modules, and that would require a lot of WinApi/GDI code /* i _hate_ dealing with winapi */

and actually, the SilverBox from SpectralHead Audio is done by professionals in my opinion ;]

Z3R0T0N1N: thanks ;]
you really understand my point of vision here ;]
yes, that SilverBox is different than a PianoRoll, it could be called a "303-style PianoRoll" because you edit the whole pattern directly
this is the only way to make a 303 with a pianoroll work, while not doing any compromises on CPU usage or 303 sound ;]
respect to Scoof (i believe this was his idea there)


you are absolutely right! ;]
and it will be even better, when there's a nice User Manual to it, explaining the features of the sequencer (it has a lot non-303-specific ones, made for the ease of use)
tho, some of them showed bugs, i'll fix them
keep it acid ;]

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grymmjack - Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:43 pm

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hi yes it's the spectralhead audio one. it's my favorite.



sure i understand what you mean, but the 2 hosts i use, live and orion have great piano rolls and they let you do "hanging notes" so that if he last note overlaps, it is a continuation (legato style) to the first, live and orion both allow this.

in ABL2, the velocity can be used to add accent, and legato notes are "slid" automatically - when not using it's internal sequencer.

the gate is handled by tracking note on/note off. this is how silverbox works as well i believe.



modulation of the parameters of the synth using native vst parameter automation provided by the host; in orions case this is called pattern and song events, and in live it's called clip envelopes or automation. it's when you make adjustments to the parameters over time through a CC like event, which you draw in using lines and graphs (in the case of orion). i was just saying that precise automation is a lot of fun and orion can do it with flair, and live with it's clip envs is also awesome. the point i was making when i brought it up was to simply illustrate that when playing a TB303 without the sequencer, you can emulate thes sequencer like behavior things through automation.



thanks for the audio demo will have a listen when next at my DAW (on daddy duty currently - daughter is cutting teeth whee!)

i really like your UI skills man. it's feeling very hardware, it's just so damned small. keep in mind i'm almost 35, and am blind as a freaking bat, but use LCD flat panel monitor at 24" size at 1680x1050 native res, if you revisited the UI and made it somewhat bigger i think people would be very grateful. it looks like you did it in a 3d package so is it possible without loads of work? as a UI designer myself i know how cumbersome the animations can be, it's just difficult to read everything and you've crammed everything in very well. it's very gol-like in terms of spacing and size which funny enough you own flstudio so go figure (i adore gols work but it's a bit small sometimes).

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grymmjack - Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:45 pm

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not so much trying to convince him, just giving him a run for his money on his opinion of it's utility and explaining why i like it and how i use it mainly

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grymmjack - Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:46 pm

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hi zero. yes it has that. a special lane for such. what's cool really about silverbox is it can act as a wicked little arp too, so as you play, the same pattern is offset and starts with the key you play, and since it can send midi out, it's really a great little box. one of my favorites

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antto - Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:16 pm

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jmh == GOL from the FruitLoops team???

grymmjack: i'm happy to know Peter, who (i believe) wrote the most significant parts of the SilverBox, he's a _coder_ really, i'm still an enthusiast i think


i didn't know that, tho, it's a nice feature i think it should be in every other host too ;]
still, you would write patterns almost 1 step earlier than with an internal seq


this is exactly what i meant when i said "a mechanism before the keyboard"
that's vital if a 303 emulation has to sound good when played externaly
but it's different, really
people who get (or are already) used to the 303-sequencer (or any sort of 303-like-seq) programing, would find external sequencing odd, and somewhat wrong/unexpected i think
at least i do..
making patterns with a built in sequencer is difficult at first, ok, you have to get used to it
but then, making patterns with an external sequencer (piano-roll) might be a little bit easier, but it could be different in the different DAWs
you can slide the last step to the first, well, i can't in my DAW
i'm not sure how the different DAWs do a velocity sliding too..
and another thing, having both methods together, what if the user decides he want's to "move" a pattern from the piano-roll to the internal sequencer (or vise-versa)?
he would have to think alot when he does this, in order to "transform" it the right way..

so, i think for me, the best thing is to use either only-external, or only-internal sequencer

i chose only-internal
then when i (or others that use my synth) get used to my sequencer programming (which is fairly not-so-complicated) i won't have a problem if i switch to another DAW, i will still be doing the same ACID with ease..


you mean like, immitating the Gimmick effect and/or envelope curves by hand with cutoff automation?
ooh, that would be like trying to dance on a rope..


thanks, i was really hoping for a bit of realism for the GUI
i'm blind enough myself too, i'm afraid to use a higher resolution than 1024x768.. i would if i had a bigger monitor tho (i need to see the pixels)
well, i mentioned earlyer, i used a 3drenderer to make the knobs/lcd-digits/screws/cables everything else was Paint
i was afraid of runing out of space (from experience in a previous GUI)
i agree now when i'm looking at the final picture, it sure could be a bit bigger, tho i really like how it fits right now, and i know it won't fit like this if i make it bigger
making it a little bigger will be hard, i would basicaly have to repaint everything again..
i'm thinking of making a tool, to help me with such tasks.. i don't know
if i decide to change the GUI in any significant way - then i'd better not start doing the documentation before the new GUI is finaly ready, this means a delay for the docs (the manual will be based on the screenshot of the front/back panels, and i don't want to do it two times)

tho i will think about making some sort of a tool since i do all my GUIs in Paint generaly, and need something to help me, when i do serious changes to the graphics when i've done too much to just throw it away..

thanks ;]

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Pacha - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:02 pm

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Thanx, man!

Venom is perfect to live play!
Small GUI, a lot of fast switching patches, nice sound.
I shall use it even if it should become payware (or may be donationware?).

Waiting for release :)

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phankiejankie - Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:09 pm

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+1 for sticking with Venom’s own sequencer. It's part of the "magic"!

Seems remaking the GUI is too much of a hassle, well, I will keep my magnifying glass for a bit longer then because it’s really needed for my 22" monitor. Luckily after a while you get familiar with where is what, which makes things a bit easier.

Plus what's with this negativity. People react like they've paid crazy amounts of dollarz for this freebie. It's clearly a project by an enthusiast that did this will a lot of passion if it stays freeware I think it's by far the best free 303 inspired VSTi around.

Keep up the good work Antto.

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Nahkranoth - Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:48 pm

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Hey, antto!
Disregard my complaints about strange behavior, everything works fine now, it was really the SSE2 issue i guess. The pattern programming is easy and fun, and with a lot of patterns there is really no urgent need for the external midi input, but it would be good anyway.
Sorry for being a n00b, but wtf are SHORTR and GMMICK knobs for, seems like I can't get the difference in sound or am I doing something wrong?
And I'd like to know exactly what for are type 1-2 switch, osc2 subtract switch.

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jmh - Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:11 am

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Nah, that's just the level and quality of "information" you'll get from that person. As he's shown in his posts over and over.

Anyway...

This "let me play the synth from my host's piano roll" comes up every time a plugin appears that relies on a internal sequencer. Given the choices between all these 303 emulators and 'inspired by' synths, I've never understood why people insist on every one of them having this functionality.

It's almost as if people refuse to grasp the small but important differences. Or refuse to stick with those plugins that work the way they prefer things to work.

To each his own, to use a cliché. I'm happy using the internal sequencer as long as the sound coming out is worth it.

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antto - Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:41 am

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thanks, i prefere post criticising my sound, because it surely needs some more touches..
i (and as you say others) have said enough about the external sequencing thing


would be good indeed, but more complicated to do, and more CPU usage
i won't do it



SHORTR (knob) ah, i didn't know how to call that knob, had to fit in 6 letters ;]
this knob (when turned up) makes the envelope's decay shorter
the effect can be heard when cutoff/envmod are high, and Decay/AccDecay are low
this is one of the knobs for "Tuning" not some "extra" ;]
GMMICK = Gimmick, this is the popular effect of the 303 Accent system
other emulations call it probably Accent Sweep or something
it makes the filter "bark" .. sort of, can be turned down, or pushed more ;]
that's tuning too

Osc2 Subtract: when Osc2 is used, this switch inverts the amplitude when both oscs mix together.. it doesn't have big effect when used with the Square, but it has a nice effect when used with the Saw
slightly detuning the oscs (with a Saw waveform) and turning the Subtract Mode ON you will get a Square with "cycling" PW ;]

WaveForm Type 1/2: well, if you examine the two, there's a liiitle difference in the harmonics, really little, and the shape too
there will be audiable difference when used with the distortion..
i personaly like the Saw from Type1 and the Square from Type2 ;P~
the difference is small enough to leave it to either 1 or 2


ah, thanks, really ;]
the GUI - i had to look at it from a bit closer in the beginning too ;]

thanks ;]
well, i thought of that.. payware - no
donationware - maybe, but optional, i want the synth to be freeware, this was my inital idea.. there's too much payware already.. tho i'm not too rich myself, and i'm currently jobless (this is why i had the time to do the synth)
at the moment, it's still a Beta/unstable/buggy version, so it's just a Freeware
maybe for the next release..

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antto - Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:10 am

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a strange thing happend, the synth was loaded for quite a while in FLStudio5
i was editing a pattern, suddenly audio stopped, and the plugin freezed, i moved the plugin window around - it wasn't redrawing anymore, it was like "hanging" like an infinite loop on the DSP side
the DAW didn't complain about anything, just that when i Saved the project - the DAW said "couldn't save the plugin's parameters" which is logical if it doesn't respond..

i have no idea why that happened, i'm still trying to reproduce the error, i couldn't yet.. too bad..

i started investigating the ClipBoard bug
it's probably my mistake there, bad initialization checkings..

i layed down some "todo" stuff..
fixing the bugs of course
..adding a few features
+ Max Reso level (switch, two options - Normal/Extreme)
+ Osc "smart" sleep mode, for efficiency
+ Pattern Shift Mode (switch) the sequencer already has this feature, i've just forgotten to put a switch for it, shifting a pattern currently shifts the whole pattern, the other option is to switch only the used steps and leave the rest of the pattern

since the synth loads FreeBee patterns (ABL plain-text format) i was thinking of adding Save-as-FreeBee-pattern too, but didn't had the time to do it

i could, if a lot of people will use it..
there are some restrictions tho..
normaly a 303 stepsequencer does not have StepLenght setting per step
so this wouldn't be saved to the FreeBee pattern (there's no way)
but anyways, might be useful for people who want to move their patterns from Venom to ABL ;]

PS: FreeBee Patterns support thanks to Mike from AudioRealism ;]

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Kriminal - Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:50 am

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Yes it is (contrary to his denial/lie)

the very same team that brought you porn in the 90's

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phankiejankie - Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:00 am

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That was true, adult software for a mature crowd unlike FL which is kids stuff as we all know .

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antto - Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:23 am

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you didn't answer any of my questions, tho you continue to post..
anyways..
no one "brought me" porn in the 90's
i have a PC since the late 1998, and internet since around the early 2000
i guess everyone does things he's not proud of, the important thing is what do we do to change that..

respect for FruityLoops ;]

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Kriminal - Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:55 am

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yes i did...you asked who if he was Gollum from FL, i told the answer.


ciao

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jmh - Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:24 pm

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You really are that clueless?

Wait, why am I phrasing that as a question... This is the best tinfoil hat moment in a while

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Kriminal - Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:39 pm

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no, he's from southport




no idea, do tell....




wonderful, i hope you enjoy wearing it for many years to come.

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VSTJuNkiE - Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:43 pm

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Z3R0T0N1N - Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:01 pm

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nah, Gol types with an accent

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Nahkranoth - Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:37 am

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Thanks, antto, for all the explanations!

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fliffo - Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:59 am

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is there a chance for a non sse2 build?

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antto - Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:32 am

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Nahkranoth: no problem ;]
fliffo: yes, the next release (hopefully final) will have a non-SIMD-version, tho, it'll run slower..
oh, and the dll will be a bit smaller (i forgot to convert my graphics to 8bit)

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Holophonic - Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:56 am

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Non SSE2 version would be nice indeed if it's possible.

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cytospur - Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:30 am

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This is really good. Thanks for making it available. I've already made a track with this, which you can find here:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=260968&songID=7834409

Made with Orion 8. The bass and acid come from VB-303 the synths are WASP-V from Orion.

I've also 'remixed' your patterns to make 128 variants using Mathematica 7. I'll try to upload these to KvR now. They're a bit hit and miss, but some might find something they like in there.

Edit: Venom VB-303 isn't in the database, so I won't be able to upload the patterns just yet.

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fliffo - Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:46 am

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I (and a few others around here) don't have a processor that support SSE2, just plain SSE... so... Thanks!

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antto - Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:03 am

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Holophonic: it's just a matter of rebuilding my modules.. don't worry
fliffo: i am not sure if SSE2 helped in anyway with my modules, i will try whether there's any difference with SSE only, and SSE+SSE2 because i have doubts
if there's no big effect from the SSE2 - i'll drop it, and then the two versions will be SSE-only and non-SSE.. i mean, there will be 2 DLLs in the zip file - one with SSE (and maybe) SSE2, the other without

cytospur: hey, very nice track there!
i'm happy to hear that the synth can do acid really

erm, you mean the KVR database? well, it isn't there
you hacked some patterns? nice ;]
btw the NSP format is really simple and compact, i plan to explain it in the documentation too, someone might make an external program for easy pattern editing (i can do this, with mIRC scripts, but just for me, most people think mIRC scripts are dumb)
btw, 128 patterns are a lot, they could be combined inside a memory file (well, only 120 of them will fit in) tell me if you're interested, or send them, i will put them together really fast ;]
nice track, go acid ;]

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cytospur - Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:30 am

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Thanks antto, glad you like it!

I hacked the patterns with Mathematica and athough I could make something in there to actually make patterns it wouldn't be available to everyone. Mathematica is quite an exspensive program. The NSP format is indeed very easy to understand. Much better than some formats! All I did was take some of the patterns that you uploaded and took a random choice between them at each step, hence why I said they were a 'remix'. It makes no difference for me if I make 8 or 128 patterns since the pattern making is batch produced.

Anyway, once again thanks for a great synth and glad you liked my track.

Mark
p.s. I PM'd you about sending those patterns over for you.

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antto - Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:52 am

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nice ;]
i meant that it might be easyier for people to test the patterns, if they were in a single Sequencer Memory file (NSM) otherwise they'll have to load them one-by-one
NSM is the same as NSP, only the file header is different, and the patterns are stored without the NSP file header header.. and the clipboard memory is there too, but it can be left zero'ed ;]

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antto - Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:57 am

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hey, i was looking at the samples on http://acidvoice.com/tb_303_vst_plugin_software.htm
(the audio clip on the left side (original TB-303) with Square wave, no distortion)
in about under 10 minutes, i "ripped" the <funny> pattern from there, and compared with my ears.. well, PW about 93% and TUNE around 52% .. RESO 88%
my synth isn't too far from the truth ;]
yeah, the filter is the most obvious thing that sounds different from the original, and probably the envelopes too, and the Gimmick for sure
but i think it is close enough to be called an Acid synth ;]
important thing to me is: my sequencer is capable of doing this pattern

i'll upload the pattern, so you can compare it yourself ;]
edit: here it is:
http://www.box.net/shared/l88icv0eip
and btw, i figured the tempo of the Audio clip there is around 142bpm

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xybre - Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:41 am

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6cL0f8bajM

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antto - Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:54 am

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xybre: thanks, tho i've watched this before..
the acidvoice samples are better, since there's no video (my old pc here crashes a lot on videos) and they are not "mixed" together, but sepparated
btw, i have a wrong note in my pattern: step10 should be C# transpose+

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grymmjack - Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:32 pm

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nice track WIP antto.

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xybre - Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:40 pm

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Ah I forgot to append &fmt=18 which puts it in high quality mode, but get the idea.

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xybre - Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:49 pm

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I compiled all the things you've said about Venom VB-303, and went through the UI, so I have a sort of documentation on a part-by-part basis if you want it. Could use some cleanup and extra explanations though.

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antto - Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:20 am

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that's nice, but i will make some changes to the synth, so..
i can't start writing the documentation untill i have made all the changes..

one thing i'll try to do is improve the filter, maybe the distortion too
tho, what you've done is good for now, other people may find it useful to have the things i've said in one place ;]
cheers!

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antto - Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:01 am

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now i think the Default PW value (for the pulse) should be even less
something like 86 or 87%
what do you think?

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cytospur - Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:41 am

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antto,
Did you get the patterns I sent over? If so, what did you think? BTW, The track I wrote and posted here is #2 in the Acid charts over at Soundclick (after having only been up for one day). So a big thumbs up from me and the online listeners for your plug-in I say!!

Mark

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antto - Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:54 am

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hi Mark ;]
well, i havn't seen the patterns yet
i got 2 PCs, my internet connection is on the "old one"
the other is new, and i do my stuff there, but they don't have any connection between them
i've made something like an "analog modem-style file transfere" thingie in SynthEdit, but it's darn slow, like 5512.5 bits/sec
i have to record another CD soon with the files i've collected recently from the net, so i can have them on the new pc..

nice to hear you got success with the track ;]
you should do more acid, you got talent!

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spacedad - Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:23 pm

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i don't seem to have sse2. so not work for me.

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cytospur - Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:29 pm

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I worked out quickly how to make nsm files autogenetimagically, so if you would like me to send some over then let me know. Still loving VB-303! Acieeeeedddd!

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