KVR :: Instruments » One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread [View Original Topic]
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V'ger - Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:35 am

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This is a thread for general discussions or suggestions not related to individual competitions etc.

This will not be a sticky thread, but you can find the link to it on the site. (FAQ and every comp page)

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V'ger - Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:38 am

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RULES REVAMP:

Ok, as there is a 'changing of the guard' after Tattiemannie is retiring, I thought this would be a good time to go through the format and rules to see what can be improved or simplified.

Here are some suggestions:

1. Comps to run from 1st to last every month, voting to middle of month (15th).

2. Voting to be simplified to top 5 with points given like this: 5-4-3-2-1. There's been some mention that it's a drag to enter the votes in the form on the page, do you all feel this is the case? One consideration is that the form type spreadsheet is anyway much more reliable and don't produce so many error messages as the plain spreadsheet for some reason.

3. Naming convention to be changed to Artist - Song Title.mp3. This is the most natural and there's always some done this way anyway, by changing they might all be the same.

4. Tagged mp3's. It's so much easier to vote when they show up correctly in mp3 players.

5. Songs to be downloadable.

6. All entrants must have submitted a vote to be eligible for prizes.

7. Equal scores to be separated by highest individual points entry. (like in sports, where the one with the most number of top scores and so on wins)

Please come with your points or suggestions. The aim is to have the rules updated and in place before OSC 23 launch 1st December.

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tattiemannie - Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:53 pm

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Cool V'ger,
.... as outgoing chief,
..... I'll keep it brief,

1. Yeah, that would save a lot of calendar gazing .... you might have to adjust a little for Dec/Jan though

2. Cool..... assuming there are a sufficient number of entries ... as is normally the case.

3. Cool.

4. Cool, I think

5. Absolutely.

6. Good call, I dont think we should make it compulsory to vote, but not voting does give participants an advantage, which can in some cases be rewarded. So this rule would not make it compulsory to vote, it would just remove some of the advantage.... so cool by me.

7. Yeah cool ( although 5-dice is more exciting )

Great stuff V'ger, I'll have a think about any links etc I need to pass on. I have already begun to inform prize donors you will be incharge from next comp onwards.

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dwsel - Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:02 pm

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1. good idea in general

2. I like current system - it can only be more sorted, i.e.
with low number of entries < 10 - 5-3-2-1
with med number of entries 11-20 - 10-7-5-3-2-1 system (which I like a lot and often found really appropriate)
with high number of entries > 20 - free voting system (max 6 tracks, not more than 10 pts. for a single one and other rules I currently can't remember which were used in previous OSC's)

In conclusion - I vote for leaving voting as it is with creating rough rules (based on entries' number) WHEN to use each system.

3. no opinion, it does not matter for me at all

4. + 1 (I hope SoundCloud won't be problematic about that)

5. + 1 (aren't most of them already?)

6. not sure if it's required (because we have in my opinion enough interest), but I see the point - to get more votes

7. I've got the same opinion as tattie
(once I've been participating live in such event )

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Mac of BIOnighT - Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:42 pm

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I have no idea what a tagged mp3 is, everything else is fine with me, I'd keep a fixed voting system, the less one has to check the rules, the more votes might come in...
Any way you may find to give votes only in one spot would be better, I think - the occasional voter may find it too much of a hassle to vote in two different places...

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bwwd - Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:33 pm

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IMO one comp per month is not much,there should be 2 of them.
It takes too long to wait for votes and for users to submit their track and people are losing interest waiting IMO.do people really need 2 weeks to complete the track,i doubt that.
Now its kinda like slugfest.

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Mac of BIOnighT - Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:50 pm

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Honestly, I think even one a month is too much... it's not like everybody has time available for this every day, not to mention the fact that it takes a while to know what the synth can actually do. Sure, if one slaps together a couple of presets, they can do it in an hour, but to me that has nothing to do with the spirit behind this kind of competition. And again, some people can only work on their tracks a few hours per week. Plus, it takes a long time for the voters to really listen to all the tracks. This is more frequent than it should be already, make it any more frequent, and listening and voting will turn into an unpaid full time job...

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batgab - Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:19 pm

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I agree w/Mac - one Challenge a month is fast enough.

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DramaNoMore - Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:13 pm

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I also agree, I've missed the Noisemaker voting because of how far apart time and quality were.

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uiiuiiu - Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:15 am

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Good idea to make stable set of dates. A) It will make it easier to organize and handle B) There is less change of error as in "oh I thought it would go to date x, like last month".

Although, I would prefer longer voting period. Especially when there are lots of entries it's hard to find enough time to listen to them at the same setting/sitting. Which is something that I think objective listening requires ( for example : listening to ½ of the tracks with mono headphones at work and half with a 5000£ home entertainment system ( not that I own one) ).

Still bit embarrassed for missing the previous vote.



I'm a big fan of the system, where you have given amount of points, which you can assign in a way you want to. To keep the voting intact I would suggest this :

20 points total to be assigned between 5 contestants. Stable one point difference wouldn't in my opinion reflect the real difference in "better vs. worse" in most situations. This way the points would reflect better the opinions of the voters



Agreed, much more natural to name in the "Artist - Song" format.



I don't think this necessary to make this mandatory, but could be encouraged in the starting thread. I think most people listen to the tracks from the stream anyway.



They aren't already?



Seconded and makes sure that the level of activity remains after initial submission.



Good idea.

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MaxSynths - Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:39 am

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Thanks for this thread so I can remember to all those which choose a MaxSynths product as a price to send me a mail/PM with their full name and email (so I can avoid to write it everytime)

Cheers,
Max

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Mac of BIOnighT - Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:57 am

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Good point (no pun intended), it's probably the best choice, if it is possible from a practical point of view.

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olikana - Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:32 am

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i'd prefer top3



would it be possible to have the voting going for 1 month too? (concurrent to the OSC)




-1
it's flawed imo.

someone could vote like this and have a way too big impact on the result outcome:
1st: 16 points
2nd:1 point
3rd:1 point
4th:1 point
5th:1 point

if u wanna introduce the point system then u must regulate how points are given....adding extra complexity to a voting sytem which imo should be simplified if anything.

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mrblitz - Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:27 pm

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Giving 5 total points to be voted in any fashion toward the entries (like 2-2-1, 4-1, 3-2, 1-1-1-1-1, etc.); that would probably be the ultimate for me. But that doesn't matter as much as making a consistent system, and sticking with it from month to month. Consistency is #1, then simplicity #2.

And the other thing Mac said; make the voting in one place only.

edit: What's the thing about making it downloadable? Is this something that happens by default under the current system with google/soundcloud, or would there be an extra step involved?

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uiiuiiu - Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:11 pm

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Actually it isn't, it was used in a few comps someway back, but you are rigth, I left important part out of the suggestion. The max points for one entry would need to be limited to 10points or 8 points. In anycase I think it would be much better since each voter could give points according to their own desire, not in a "set in stone" format.

I wouldn't mind even if the amount of songs needed to be awarded points could be chosen within certain limits. Just as a example :

25pts minimium of 4 entries voted upon, maximium of 10 points per one entry :

1st - 10pts
2nd - 8pts
3rd - 5pts
4th - 2pts

or

1st - 6pts
2nd - 5pts
3rd - 5pts
4th - 3pts
5th - 3pts
6th - 2pts
7th - 1pts

Much more versatile than set of points for each position. And it really isn't that complicated imo as it can be easily defined by one sentence.

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V'ger - Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:15 am

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Agree the weighted points system is not entirely fair because some might divide the points on just a few entries because they didn't have time to assess all properly, while those that did gave to many, but less. It also makes it more difficult to vote when the problem is lack of voters.

Also feel that the 10-7-5-3-2-1 like now is not entirely fair either as it presupposes that one song is much better than the the 2nd one and twice as good as no. 3 and that is seldom the case.

@Olikana: I think the prizes go further down than top 3, but still open to a 3-2-1 system for simplicity. On the other hand, a lot of entrants will never get points that way which can be discouraging, and I'd rather have entries than votes.

About songs being downloadable, they are mostly, I just want to make it part of the rules.

But how about covers and sampling? Personally I have no trouble with covers and understand completely people with PC trouble wanting to sample the synths. Samplers like Highlife can even sample the synth programs so that one can play it like the original, how U feel about that?

@Mac: Tagged mp3's mean that information is stored within the mp3 file what the artist and track name etc is, most mp3 players and especially cheap ones like on phones etc will only show this. On my phone's Walkman (can't believe Sony making such crap), I have no idea what track is playing if it's untagged or .wav file as only part of the filename is visible.

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uiiuiiu - Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:38 am

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That's why there should be minimum ( 4, 5 or 6? ) amount entries voted upon by each voter. Nothing is going to prevent people from voting without checking out all the entries properly, but that would discourage to do otherwise.




I can't see anything wrong with covers as long as it's very clearly stated ( and song named accordingly ) that it is the case. Same goes for remixes as well.

When it comes to sampling I think it's entirely justified to freeze tracks or to make one cpu heavy line in to a audio format as long as no modifications are done after wards to the audio. After all that would defeat the purpose of the competition as you could endlessly process the audio wave and make it entirely unrecognizable from original. Samplers do come with their own set of effects and edition options that would be accessible to only to that particular sampler.

So no, I don't think sampling should be part of OSC, but there is no reason to prevent contestants bouncing tracks to avoid undue CPU spikes or to avoid technical problems with the synth.

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Mac of BIOnighT - Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:55 am

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Thanks for the explanation, V'ger Regarding points, how about a simple 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-point system?

Regarding sampling, I think that should not be a part of the osc under no circumstances (if we're talking about real note-by-note or loops or whatever sampling - if you're using a sampler as a simple recorder, as if you were bouncing tracks or using a multitrack recorder, that wouldn't make any difference on the final result. Real sampling, however, shouldn't be allowed).

I know some people will hate me for saying this, but I also do think that the use of presets should be kept at a strict minimum. I feel that osc's are about using the synth as a synth (ergo, to create sounds) and not as a sort of ready-to-use sound canvas. There have been tracks made entirely with presets, but at that point it's no longer a synth challenge, it becomes a composition competition. Many times I hear amazing sounds in some of the tracks and that would deserve points, but I can't base my votes on that (even if it definitely should be a part of it) because I don't know if it is a preset or not that I'm hearing. That is unfair to those people who actually squeeze incredible sounds out of the instrument (no, I'm not talking about myself, I basically only use bread-and-butter synth sounds), so I feel something should be said about that, too.

(by the way, in case anybody was wondering: the reason why I'm taking part in the discussions and I'll probably manage to partecipate in the next osc is that I'm taking a month off from my dayjob, in a few weeks everything will be back to my horrifying normal...)

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V'ger - Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:10 am

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About voting time, for NA2SC1 it was over a month and there was not many votes coming in until the last days, so I think it is like with submissions that it is the deadline that spurs action more than anything.

KVR has monthly contests in the 'Music Cafe' forum section here, and there the voting time is 1 week and votes to be given to the top 10 but still they come in. It may be that the short time and right after submissions is good as people are still into the competition. Another benefit with short voting time is that there's less chance of being influenced by the current score as everyone gives their votes more or less at the same time.

That competition also has a simple 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 system btw.

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Mac of BIOnighT - Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:59 pm

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Regarding the number of votes, I think of the Italian saying "Even gogs don't wag their tails in return for nothing" (rough translation). As I suggested some time ago, there should be a prize for one of the voters, too, picked randomly. A lot of people might wonder, "Why should I bother? What's in it for me?". Human nature...

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vanmorrison - Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:19 am

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I think it's good to have few and certain rules for voting, because voting is difficult... the tracks are many... and yes, I think we should tag them... last time I downloaded the chimera tunes something strange happened and my mp3 player gave me strange caracters, I don't know why... I think that tagging them will make it easier to understand what we're listening... maybe a little tutorial may help us to do it

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MaxSynths - Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:03 am

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About tagging: usually I always tag my MP3 files, BTW I wonder if the tag informations are still available once the file has been uploaded to Soundcloud. If I understood right SC modify the MP3 file (hence the negative comments about sound quality), if so this is something to check to avoid useless extra job.

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V'ger - Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:04 pm

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SoundCloud will only change the bitrate of any that's not 128kbs for the online player, but not touch downloads which will stay as they were uploaded, so tags and original quality is there.

For ways to tag, there are some how-to's in the FAQ on the site. (if someone knows how to do this on Mac I will add it)

About the other topics like voting and voting time, there are very differing views so far and no real consensus, so please come with more ideas or ways to compromise.

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Mike777 - Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:02 pm

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I like how the Cafe contests are run, voting and deadlines, etc. But I prefer contests starting on the 1st, and deadline to vote one week is good enough. Also, have covers been allowed up to now? If not, I don't think that rule should change now.

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V'ger - Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:26 pm

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Yes, submissions and voting all done in 1 month works surprisingly well there. (3 weeks for submissions, 1 for vote for those who don't know)

Although from my own experience, it takes a bit more effort and longer time with only one synth doing all sounds (and being judged on the sounds as well as the song).

About covers, they are allowed, but I guess tend to suffer somewhat in the voting.

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tattiemannie - Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:39 pm

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Here's a suggestion for future comps .... It can be difficult for the organiser to remember and trace artists who attribute their tracks to names other than their kvr nickname. I think it would be convenient for all concerned if, when submitting tracks, the KVR username appears.

I dont have a prob with, for example, objectman using the artist name Dead Eddy, .. and in this case, not an inconvenience because I now know that connection ... but I would ask that in future the track in some way includes the KVR username ... something like this ( artist name first I think we now all agree? ) ...

"Dead Eddy(objectman) - tracktitle" or "the beatsoul(vanmorrison) - tracktitle"

The problem arises when prizes are to be sorted out, and/or the organiser needs to contact a contributor directly in private. It is unnecessarily time consuming to have to scroll back pages and pages of a thread to find a KVR username associated with a track entered under a different artist name.

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V'ger - Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:14 pm

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Agree with that.

And to take more ideas from the KVR monthlies, I suggest to add to the rules:

- Can not vote for yourself
- Voters must have had 20 prior posts to vote unless entered

Ok, so with only a few days left before OSC23 and the new rules to be fixed, let's hear your final ideas.

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abstractcats - Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:42 pm

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I'm certainly out of the loop(Pun intended ) on the OSC. Sorry to you go tattie but I understand somethings must change, thanks for all the hard
work, I've had a great time and learned some things about production doing the OSC. Thanks again. And as a lovely parting gift...






And to V'ger, the new Chief !!looking forward to doing some OSCs this year and yes, I'll be cheating...but still losing I'm sure

Oh yeah! The OSC site you set up is great and I'll put a link to on my site which I'm re constructing over the next few weeks. Thanks to V'ger for filling the Chief's shoes.

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V'ger - Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:23 pm

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Thank you

Ok since there were conflicting wishes about voting and time etc in this thread, I guess a middle ground must be found and settled at, so here is a draft suggestion of the new rules: https://sites.google.com/site/kvrosc/rules

If there are no major objections or ideas for adjustments or additions in the next days, they will be used for OSC 23 to start at 1st December.

We will of course have regular rules revisions to come, whatever is decided now will not be set in stone.

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Mac of BIOnighT - Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:39 pm

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Looks all fine for me, except a couple of things:

Challenge to run from 1st to last every month, voting to middle of month (15th) (KVR time is used as clock)

This is not entirely clear for thick headed people like me; after reading it several times, I guess what's missing is probably just a couple of words to make it clear that the voting is not for the OSC currently receiving entries, but for the OSC that closed at the end of the previous month (sorry, I wouldn't know how to word this)


Equal scores to be separated by highest individual points entries (number of top scores and so on)
This is a bit vague, too (again, for thick headed people like me)...

No track length limit
This one I like

The rest seems to be a perfect balance of all suggestions

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V'ger - Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:50 pm

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I thought you might..

But you're right the wording of the other points were not so clear. Tried new ones now, see if they are more understandable.

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Mac of BIOnighT - Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:16 pm

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I think it's perfect now
Just one more little thing:
Covers are allowed I think it should say that covers are OK if the author clearly says it's a cover and names the original composer.

If I may give a little suggestion, I think the column on the left should have rules, about, contact, donors etc on top and the various editions below - in a while there will have been so many aditions that rules etc. will be too far down to be noticed by the occasional visitor...

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V'ger - Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:38 am

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Good idea about the cover, included.

About the rule page in the site menu, it will anyway be named and linked to from every OSC page and forum thread so not that important to have on top, and not sure about the others you mention, will think about it.

But one last thing that came up in the Music Cafe's monthly gossip thread: Should we have secret or hidden voting until deadline? Will certainly make it more fair in that people are not influenced by general consensus (which is a real factor)

We could just enter the votes in the form on the site as we do now but without repeating them in the forum thread, just confirm that you have voted. Then all will be revealed after the deadline.

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Mac of BIOnighT - Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:40 am

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Uhmmm... that would also prevent conscious and unconscious favors being returned and such, and there wouldn't be the annoyance of having to repeat the votes twice (where, by the way, I always get confused). On the other hand, there would be no reviews, unless one decides to write them for all tracks. It might be an interesting experiment; maybe it could be implemented a couple of times and see how it works...

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vanmorrison - Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:28 am

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For me we should give
5 4 3 2 1 points (not too difference to prevent casuality in the votes)
mp3 tagging
No covers admitted in general
Covers admitted in one contest where all do the same cover
sample admitted only to freeze the sound for problematic synth

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V'ger - Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:46 am

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Ok, how do others feel about covers?

And what do you all think about having the votes hidden until after deadline?

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dwsel - Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:37 am

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I like making and really enjoy listening to covers. Ability to enter to cometition cover allows me to enter the OSC and experiment with the given synth when I lack inspiration to write my own piece at that time. Isn't it the point to learn/improve programming of the synths during the OSC? When I'm voting though I give usually '-1 pt' for entry being not original composition thus requiring a bit less work.





That is what worries me the most. Reviews, explanation of 'why do I give points to specific track', thanking for votes, etc. All of these is often fun to read, this encourages others to take part in the OSC and voting, without this voting thread will be dead.



That I guess will make me silently cheat I don't really see the problem in using NON PROCESSED samples for drums, as these sounds are static, repetitive, often non overlapping, and putting so many instances is IMHO only waste of memory/CPU resources (some older computers can't handle it).


If fixed votes are already decided I'd like to see this scale expanded to 1-7 or 1-10 for a bigger number of entries. Choosing only TOP5 from 20 entries would be IMHO a bit discriminatory as the competition level is often high.

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Archon1024 - Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:17 am

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Couple quick thoughts:

* I don't see a problem with covers since this is a competition about sound generation. For the Chimera contest, I was immediately inspired to produce a cover and actually spent *more* time working out that sounds than I did when I've made originals.

* I think an OSC where we all work on covering the same song would be an interesting experiment.

* Fixed scale voting is fine with me, but I would like to see a more organic distribution. Linear might work (1-5), but a point allocation with a minimum number of choices would be ideal in my opinion. Something like 30 points, at least 7 choices, no single score above 8. Something like that, though, is more difficult to manage. 1-7 or 1-5 would be easy and still fair.

* As for the hidden votes, I think it would make voting more fair but would take a lot of the fun out of the process. Writing and reading reviews is a big part of this comp's value. Plus I enjoy checking the voting thread every day to see if I'm mentioned. =)

* I think that a shorter timeline for voting would be good. 1-2 weeks is my suggestion.

* Like others, I don't see a problem with sampling the synth provided no changes are made to the sound or its character/timing. A simple note about it in the submission post should clear everything up if you've done it.

* I believe that you should not be allowed to vote for yourself (I don't believe anyone has yet) and that an entrant should be disqualified if they do not vote. This would prevent someone from seeing that they are in the lead and choosing not to vote for others so they can remain in that position.

* In general I agree with the rules as they are written as of this posting. A big thanks to tattiemannie, V'ger and everyone who works to make this contest possible.

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V'ger - Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:50 am

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Yeah you are right, I can see how the voting thread will be a dry affair with no reviews and just a 'voted' message.

About weighted points, it would probably be ideal, but makes it more work and seems to be a split opinion with a slight favor for the simpler solution, so let's try the straight 5-4-3-2-1 for now and check again later.

About covers, there seems to a majority in favor so let's keep that. Certainly an interesting idea with all covering the same tune as you say Archon. Seems a good thing to spice things up with specials once in a while so that can be be an alternative.

About samples, I always meant samples as in external ones and bouncing as from the synth, and not only as tracks. Should specify this in the rules, see if this is about right:
No samples allowed. You are however allowed to bounce sounds or tracks of the synth to save CPU etc, but they must not be processed after that.

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tattiemannie - Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:55 am

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Yeah that looks like a good set of rules, apart from one .... covers. I'm not at all happy with this one. I'm not against folks doing covers, but I think we are skipping the wrong side of the line legally.

In fact, the reason I have been reluctant to publicly distribute the link to the StringZ e-album is because there is a cover on it, and to make it a public release, as 'producer' of the e-album, I would be obliged to declare this to MCPS, pay £20 to register the album regardless of the number of copies I hoped to distribute and regardless of the fact it is to be distributed free.

The fact that we are offering tracks for download means we could be viewed as producers or even broadcasters. This is no problem with original compositions as each individual agrees to share their tracks, and actively makes them available. But, I am pretty sure that, at least in the UK, recording a cover is no problem .. but to broadcast it or distribute without the copyright owners permission is against the law, and all individuals actively involved in the process of making the track publicly available are liable. In the case of V'ger, there would be no defence as it is now written in the rules that this is acceptable.
This might actually excuse the artist as the artist could point to that written rule, and V'ger, having written it would be easier to sue.

Chances are no-one will give a toss, and if anything, a cover arranged on a single synth will prob be regarded more as of benefit to the original artist than harmful .... BUT - do we want to take the risk??

Also, returning to the subject of artist name/kvr name, I would advise anyone who uses a famous artists name as their KVR name to assign their tracks to an original artist name.

Two examples spring to mind ... vanmorrison ( who has in the past entered his work under the name 'The Beatsoul' ... and prob should do that for future tracks with KVR name in brackets ), and New Kids on the Block.

The law relating to these? Well, you can call yourself what you like, but when you produce work, products, services, you should make sure that an individual or company has not registered that name as a trade mark ( and most established artists do! ) .... otherwise, you are, in legal terms, posing as that company or individual, and either seeking to earn what is rightfully theirs, seeking to earn publicity or credit based on their reputation, or seeking to misrepresent them in some way.... and will therefore be liable for court action - Oh, and trademarks are global!

Yeah, this is all pretty heavy, and as I said earlier, probably very unlikely to happen .... BUT, do we want to take the risk?

... other issue, a much more trivial point ... I can go with the secret vote idea, although it is quite exciting watching tracks move up and down in the race. if we go with that though, I dont see any reason why we cant still do reviews/comments .... I very often find more to write about some tracks which will not get any points, than tracks which will score highly. I think it is good to give feedback to each other, and the reviews also demonstrate that all the tracks have been 'actively' listened to.

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V'ger - Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:12 pm

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Hm, it never occured to me at all that doing covers in a small freeware synth competition could have legal ramifications. It's like Youtube or anywhere on the net where millions are doing versions of other's stuff and you know there's no way they are paying royalties for it.

As I said I never really thought about it, so must just have assumed there was a 'fair use' policy of all as long as things were not released for commercial purposes, but I guess there's no need to take any risks like you say, so better drop it.

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tattiemannie - Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:39 pm

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Sorry to be a killjoy, but I do think it is risky.

For sure you see stuff on Youtube etc which gets away with it, but at the same time, we all know that there is the occasional crackdown on these same sites .. and it's the guys who cant pay the lawyers who get hammered, or have to quickly pull their material and hide.

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V'ger - Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:57 pm

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But there are still a lot of songs that have no copyright like classical and folk music. As far as I can see, copyright ends when the author has been dead more than 70 years.

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Mac of BIOnighT - Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:09 pm

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Traditional etc yes, dead for 70 years, not exactly... the rights are not necessarily with the author, they may have been bought by somebody else, or be the family's, etc. Actually, something (anything) is considered to be in the public domain 75 years after the copyrights were registered (by anybody) and only if they haven't been renewed since. (like many other people, I'm a fan of OTR (Old Time Radio, the old radio shows from the 30's/40's/50's); because of our passion we're constantly discovering things about the copyright nightmare. There's enough to keep you awake at night).

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V'ger - Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:37 am

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Anyway, there's a caveat on the site that covers must not be of copyrighted material, and the site is anyway not publishing works per se, it has an unmoderated dropbox player showing people's uploaded ('published') stuff so should be 'covered' now.. (pun fun, geddit? )

Btw, just checked Youtube for the phrase "cover song", got 1,9 mill hits.. Which means there are for sure at least another million covers not described by that exact phrase. So all in all I think the world we live in today has more than slightly changed when it comes to this issue..

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Mac of BIOnighT - Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:49 am

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True: once you could get away with it, today it's a Russian roulette - but personally, I wouldn't want to run the risk of getting that one bullet
It's become a difficult world, I must admit I do not like it Mind, I am totally in favor of protecting rights in most cases, but if we go on like this, when you take a picture of a monument while on vacation you'll need to get a written permission by all the people that appeared in it accidentally...

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tattiemannie - Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:51 pm

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V'ger, I agree there are millions of folk uploading covers, and unauthorised footage etc to youtube, and the world certainly has changed. But that doesn't mean the law has changed. Also, the issue is not a new one.

The best studies will state that more than 50% of people in the Uk have tried cannabis at least once, but it doesn't mean that if you get caught in posession the police will pat you on the head and tell you to 'run along now'.

Wherever the line may be drawn, whatever the chances of being caught, and whatever ways there are around it, I dont see it is the comp organiser's role to define these and participate in the gamble.

I really think it is the responsibility of the artist to make sure that the tracks they produce are legal to distribute/share. I dont know where other folks stand on this, but as comp organiser, I was very concerned about my role in allowing covers in prevoius comps, and I did intend to make a statement of 'no-no' to this ..... but being as busy as I have been, I let it slip. I did not however, make a statement that I was in favour of covers.

There is a lot of middle ground however. For example - OSC 14, my track 'minstrel cycle' .... there is a sequence around half way which on listening, to me, sounded exactly like 'Secret love' by Doris Day. This was unintentional, but comfortable as I was with how the notes fitted with the track, I changed the part slightly in order to take it away from being a breach of copyright. To me, it still sounds like bloody 'secret love' and I nearly took it out ... but satisfied that I had not deliberately 'stolen' the sequence, and actually put more effort into making it different from 'SL', I let it go.

But still, if I had a bit of wealth worth having, a lawyer as ruthless and determined as the guy who stitched up Men at Work ( research this and learn!! ) over 3 notes could probably have my arse in a sling!

So I dont have a problem with guys who perhaps want to do a part, or track 'based on' or 'influenced by' a cover ... provided it is not obviously a cover... and if it is not obviously a cover, then FFS dont tell anyone that it is!
At the end of the day, folks can take our featured synth and copy/cover what they like ... but we dont have to agree that it can appear in the comp - there are plenty other ways to air covers without asking OSC to stick it on a flagpole ... and if anyone recognises an entry as an obvious cover, then they should mention it ... because to do otherwise is allowing the will of a minority to threaten the future a facility enjoyed by us all.

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V'ger - Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:17 pm

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Youtube is not responsible for what people upload to their site, and in our case not even to the site, but to people's own accounts at SoundCloud. It would be the same as if we had a dropbox where people linked their Youtube videos. If anything, YT or SC in this case would be more responsible, but they are not. It is the one who did it obviously.

It is anyway a mute point as the site rule state that copyrighted material can't be used.

But I think that wraps up the rule discussion for now. Not something all agreed on obviously, but I think the best compromise so will launch OSC 23 with those in place. Like I said, the current rules are not fixed forever, but will be revised at a later date. Feel free to say here at any time if you want something changed or added.

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olikana - Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:40 pm

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music gets pulled down from youtube all the time ...but i've never ever seen a cover being pulled down (unless the cover was published/protected material itself).

u r breaking the law in case u are making a cover and claiming it as your own composition...which is called plagiarism! or using samples from the original without permission (copyright infrigment).
u r calling scarecrows for uploadig covers....but turning a blind eye on plagiarism? which imo is the only real crime u can commit.
..if an OSC entry is in any way a cover it should be declared clearly as such in the info file imo!

broadcasting or publishing issues with covers -if any- can be dealt by soundcloud.
and soundcloud seems to accept covers (they even feature them!).
infact personally i wish for OSC compositions to just stay on soundcloud and not be moved anywhere else (no arhcive and no ep-albums).
i would not even host any of the songs on the OSC site. just external links or widgets to sites which have their broadcasting and publishing rights sorted is fine.

but seriously i'd really like to know of even one case of someone posting a cover on the net and getting into trouble for it or even having it removed?. but i'm sure there's never been one.
the only time i ever read of record companies getting in touch with someone uploading covers of their songs was to actually sign them = Bieber, esmer etc etc .


+++++++111111111

an OSC with everyone covering something like Enjoy the Silence would be epic.

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tattiemannie - Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:13 pm

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Hi folks, I am in no way trying to scare anyone re. covers, nor do i have any principled stance against this practice.

I realise that the download/listen links on the KVROSC site are merely links to Soundcloud, but I still think caution is required.

Youtube tend to pull stuff only if the copyright owner objects, and the have an agreement with PRS to pay royalties as a broadcaster. Soundcloud bodyswerve the responsiblity via a disclaimer.

.....

Don'ts
Upload things that aren't yours to upload
This of course means music but also texts & images that you might have found around the web. Uploading and sharing means you should always be certain that you are the creator of what you're uploading OR THEIR AGENT has given you permission TO share.
Share music without the consent of the proper right holders
Any user sharing music illegally runs the risk of having their SoundCloud account deleted and being reported to the relevant authorities. SoundCloud makes it easy for people to share & receive music, please help us in making sure it's all legal music.

......

So, if anyone wants to upload a cover to their own account, they are liable for infringement.
If KVROSC is seen to endorse the uploading of covers, then the account holder is liable.
Furthermore, if the KVR site includes the rule that says it's OK to include covers, then the liability increases ( If anyone can be bothered to read the rules, they will find a clause somewhere which, though badly worded, suggests a responsibilty that account owners report illegal uploads to their dropbox )

Unfortunately, the different parts of Soundcloud's rules, terms and conditions etc, are very messy, and difficult to navigate, and are therefore not immediately clear ..... but they do NOT accept responsibility for material uploaded by individuals which breaches copyright.

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Mac of BIOnighT - Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:25 pm

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I'm on Tattie's side on this one. However, if the rules have been changed to "no copyrighted material is accepted," that should settle it, right? I mean, I can make a cover of, say, Amazing Grace with no legal problem, I think. But then again, copyrights are such horrible mess that most of the time it's hard to tell if something is copyrighted or not (I know from experience).
I don't know, in general I think it'd be better to go with "better safe than sorry," or, alternatively, be very accurate with wording

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dwsel - Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:24 pm

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If I understood your post well, you're suggesting obligatory sharing of the patches used in OSC entries? (Correct me if I'm wrong). In past we were encouraged to post our patches. As far as I (probably don't) remember somewhere around OSC 15, there was a special folder for that on 4shared.com. Some people were putting there whole banks, some only drums - to help other contestants to build their own drum patches when the synth was not very 'drum-friendly'.

Personally I don't see a problem with having such a rule. I think it might be discouraging though, because of time needed to organize, categorize such a number of presets. For example: lets say I've created and saved as *.fxp 10 instruments, 4 of them got in the meantime 3 different versions. In the final mix I used 7 instruments - 5 from my library (I can't remember which version I used ) and 2 are just tweaked initial presets. At the mixing stage I tweak them even more. My final bank would have to have 20-30+ patches with 70% of them highly redundant (all of them requiring name, version etc.)...

I was thinking yesterday about posting my latest patches as *.fxb bank for SmallQoo - synth I had made entry with for current OSC - in KVR area dedicated for that task: http://www.kvraudio.com/banks.php I haven't done it yet, because I see very little (or any) interest on this synth. Why bother when probably no one will ever make use of these patches?

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MaxSynths - Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:46 pm

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Wow, I think it would be a great thing; this will add an educational vein to the OSC, a lot of people will have the opportunity to learn more about synth programming

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Mac of BIOnighT - Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:15 pm

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Or, as I'm sure will happen, a lot of people will just use other people's presets and learn even less... (sorry, I'm famously against presets...)

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MaxSynths - Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:30 pm

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Nah... people which use only presets are too lazy to put together a bank or pick single fxp files

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james0tucson - Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:09 pm

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Sure... then you're failing to consider copyrighted material that is released under say Creative Commons licensing. Oops, suddenly your blanket prohibition against copyrighted material abridges the wishes of a contributor.

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Mac of BIOnighT - Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:43 pm

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This just confirms that the whole thing is a mess and it'd be better to avoid covers altogether...

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dwsel - Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:19 am

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As I read more about it - I agree with Tattie's and Mac's statements that covers should be avoided.

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V'ger - Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:05 am

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We need to sort out the synth selection for the coming year. This because last 2 votes for synths produced a handful or less responses and no winner, and RMXL got only 2 votes to win with 1 vote before that.

So please come with some suggestions to get more votes in and for a backup solution should normal vote fail to produce a winner synth.

Admins choice? Previous winner? Second place? Or return to last place choice? (but note that last place is often shared).

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Mac of BIOnighT - Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:32 pm

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I think that letting everybody suggest a synth will always result in scattered votes, so the solution might be to have a limited choice of (like three) synths and people vote one among those. The three synths could be chosen by you, V'ger (considering all the work you do, I guess a few privileges are in order).

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V'ger - Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:11 am

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Yes that might be a workable idea.

Any others?

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MaxSynths - Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:14 am

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To make the challange a bit more difficult: compile a big list of free synths and random choose the order of the synths. This way people have to use the next synth in the list (no way to choose) and that's all.

...the only risk is that if no one like the synth there will be no partecipants

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dwsel - Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:38 am

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I posted an idea for a special OSC in the other thread: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4365324&highlight=#4365324

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tattiemannie - Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:10 am

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OK, maybe wrong place, but the free synth thing reminds me ..... Cryologic is now free!
So, a) it needs to be taken out of the prize pool, and b) it now looks like a good candidate for an OSC featured synth

I previously created a list of free synths from suggestions on various OSC threads.

I have previously posted the list, but obviously now it would be a hassle to find it. ... so here it is again.

Intro ... http://www.kvraudio.com/get/1892.html
Gtg synths ... http://www.gtgsynths.com/plugins.htm
Dreamstation dxi
Polish synths
Twin2 ... ( eval )
Automat
Automap
Oddy http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?2yqu2nknm3x
TAL uno 62
TAL bassline
free alpha (linplug)
da hornet (dash signature)
triple cheese (u-he)
Evol
JG-3
Atlantis
Robot juice
Galileo
Leto
Triangle I
EZ Poly
Richman
Orca
MiniMogueVA
Cetonesynth2
Arch Avenger Pro
Voyager
JBM Jagular
ZynAddSubFX ( ????? )
More Krakli synths
prodigious (synthescience.)
pterosaur (vstplanet.com )
Acquit XX11
!j ninja (abandonware?)
xhip (aciddose.)
mainliner X2 (arcdev.)
pulsation lite (atomsplitter.)
sn-emu (ben anderson.)
dschlon_nzElektrik
evm.mutaar (found somewhere in the "old vst for the masses")
sonata (soha.)
nitrox (sonic lion.)
isnonu (xoxos.)
Oxe Fm Synth
OSC321
Pink synth
ilo Synth
majkens subduer
polyiblit
Voyager
HG fortune synths

OK, at least one has already been used, some may not be suitable, and an update is in order, but if this can be managed on the KVROSC site, being more easily accessible ... then that would be cool

Dwsel, I do like the idea of a one sample comp, or a one sample set comp. I was recently thinking of a one material comp ... there is a good range of sounds that can be made with paper. ( nothing else involved except hands, mouth, fingers ... eg no banging on a table as then part of the sound would be the table )
Tear it, rustle it, flick it, sharply pull it tight, rub it/scratch it, pop a paper bag - there you have your percussion
Blow through it ( squeaky ), twist it, stretch it and pluck it, make a cylinder and blow across the end, rifle the pages of a book,
.. There we have it .. a range of sounds made from paper. Either someone records/samples these, or we agree rules to govern how folks sample their own?? yep, could be interesting

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MaxSynths - Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:13 pm

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Ehm no Fred, is not free at all! Don't know where you get this information...
BTW there is a free version with some limitations (only 16 presets and load function disabled for OSC 1 and 2).

Cheers,
Max

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V'ger - Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:23 am

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The thing with a synth list is that new synths come out all the time, and it would be a shame to miss new ones like Tyrell or UGO's new Rez (coming soon) etc, just because we had a fixed list to go by.

If no synth gets a majority OSC 23 song vote now, that will be 3rd time with no winner and something has to be done. So far Mac's idea of having a shortlist of 3 to choose from looks like the best bet.

But it pays to do this properly as fav synths produce twice or more the number of entries as others.

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tattiemannie - Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:02 am

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My apologies Max ... I'll go check where I found that info

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MaxSynths - Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:12 am

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No problem Fred

P.S.: maybe the problem is that the free version has been announced as a "free version of Cryologic" and in the news appeared as "MaxSynths released Cryologic FREE" (which sounds like "for free")

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tattiemannie - Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:25 am

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That may well be it Max, because if I had seen this on a non-trusted site, I would have cross checked with you before coming on here with my foot in my mouth

Again, I apologise ( ..... could we do an OSC with the free version anyway?? )

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MaxSynths - Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:05 am

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By all means!

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vanmorrison - Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:17 am

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Well, it's important to 'program' your patches giving them appropriate names when you create them KBD PD LD... in a directory... I think it could be interesting, we could make an experiment on this... or at least upload them in kvr bank dir

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V'ger - Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:49 am

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About choosing synths for future comps and the SynthEdit and FL issues, can you please try out this one as that is made with the new version of SynthEdit? http://www.elektrostudio.ovh.org/index2.php?go=15

So load up a bunch of instances (without renaming dll's) and push it like you would during a normal OSC composition.

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V'ger - Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:41 am

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Also, we should try and suss out cross platform synths to include Mac users, any suggestions? So far, apart from the TAL series, I've only found these:

- LinPlug's free Alpha
- Big Tick's Cheeze Machine
- daHornet
- Crystal
- reFX's Claw

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bjporter - Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:16 pm

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V'Ger here are the rest from what i could see...

I took a look at the list, and got 694 total Free vst's (only self oscillated), and out of that there were about 30 ones that were cross platform, and the site was up / plugin was downloadable.

Here is a list:

--------------------------------------------------------
Medium to Advanced:
--------------------------------------------------------
JellyFilter
VOPM
TAL-Bassline
TAL-U-No-62
Creakbox
Jasuto
Remedy
Harmonical
Vintager
Harmony Box
FTM String
JX10
Crazy Diomonds
NWBass
Drummachine R8
Fineline

----------------------------------------
Really Simple:
----------------------------------------
CHIP32
Orca
Particle Fountain
X-Orcism
Delay Lama
DX10

Free in Magazine:
----------------------------------------
MicroTera
CM-505 (drum synth)
CM-303

Modular/Host VSTs:
----------------------------------------
Studio Units
CPS

Free Analog Drum Synth:
----------------------------------------
KickMaker

Also, Mr. Alias synth was used before in OSC, but it's also crossplatform!

I propose we could try doing a Two Synth Challenge:
For example, Delay Lama, with TAL-Bassline? That would be fun!


Regards
-Brian

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bjporter - Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:26 pm

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If anyone was wonder why the post above was blank... I'm still trying to figure out the syntax here

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V'ger - Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:06 pm

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Yes I saw a lot of those too when looking, but didn't list them as some are no longer downloadable, some have stopped being cross platform, some are no longer really free, others have different version numbers, and some are honestly a bit too 'far out' and some like Harmonical gobbles cpu like you've never seen. Only ones left are really NWBass, which is quite ok and Orca which sounds good but may be a bit too simple, certainly didn't get many cheers when mentioned some OSCs ago..

As it looks, apart from the TAL stuff and some others, cross grade synths are very limited indeed and to be only occasionally used for the challenge.. (also note that Crystal was already used in OSC 5)

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V'ger - Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:34 pm

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As there was a general question about using bitcrusher in a submissions thread, maybe it's time to look at the FX rules again.

Currently, the rules say:
External effects: Allowed but must be freeware and easily available to all except your DAW's native EQ which is ok. Modulation effects like chorus, phaser, flanger etc or effects that transform the sounds to make them
unrecognizable as being from the synth are not allowed.
I've honestly been in 2 minds about the FX restrictions from the start. Phaser and flanging can f.i. be done with delays, eq and filters which are all allowed, and chorus by layering synths with the same sounds and pitch shifting and delay etc.

I know some have (I suppose inadvertently) used modulation effects in the past and got away with it, and might be easier and more creative overall to free up the rules and just judge in the final voting what was too much in each case?

What's your take on this?

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V'ger - Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:03 pm

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Another thing: About the synth voting we were lucky to get a few votes for SuperWaveP8 during OSC 23 vote to get a winner synth, but it was a shave and that's after 3 unsuccessful votes..

So maybe the best idea is to vote from a limited list like Mac suggested earlier.

Likely it will be from my own fav top 10 list, but that will be open for suggestions as well.

So far it looks something like this:

ZynAddSubFX
Voyager
Minimogue
String Theory
Rez
EVOL
Pure-Pone4 (mono, but stonking sound and filter)
PolyIblit
Model Pro (mono, but maybe some other Elektrostudio synth)
MassTurboTar

U-he's latest Tyrell is still in alpha, but with a beta to come shortly I think should make the list. Try it out and have a listen to it here:
http://bedroomproducersblog.com/2010/12/26/u-he-tyrell-n6-alpha-available-for-download/
(no awards for guessing where the name and song inspiration comes from.. )

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tattiemannie - Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:15 am

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Hmmmm there are two ways of considering the use of modulated delays ( flanging, chorus, phasers etc )

We allow automation, therefore it is possible to use a static delay plug and use automation to change the delay period over time. It is also possible to use a static delay, with high feedback level to produce tones/notes which are independent of the the featured synth. It is therefore possible, with automation to create sounds, and melodies with only a delay, and there is where I see the problem.

From what I have written there, it could be concluded that there is no point in ruling out modulated delays.

OK, the rules state that all sounds must be created via the featured synth, and also there is a rule which discourages tranformation of the synths sound to the point of misrepresentation.

However, I dont see it as desirable to make it easier for folks to create sounds from effects based modulation which, if used in a subtle manner, can go unnoticed, or assumed to be from the featured synth, and effectively give the user an advantage in the comp.

At least if an artist feels he/she must automate to modulate, then at least he/she will have to work at it, and will as a result at least apply some creative thought to the process.

From my own experience, playing keyboards ( badly ) with a band, I used a cheap casio which sounded like shit ... but when I ran it through a flanger ( which I seem to remember cost more than the keyboard ) ... it really was a different instrument.
Likewise, with my punk band, I used to unplug my guitar at certain points, hold the jack plug and 'play' that same flanger as an instrument... through the distortion pedal, this was very effective.

I'm not suggesting there is a great desire right now for folks to do any of the above, but I do think, if we make the statement that it is allowed, then inevitably, folks will! ... then we will struggle to place defined limits on the extent to which the technique can feature in the finished track.

All in all, if we want to look at the history of OSC, generally, the rules on fx have been gradually relaxed already, but I still view bitcrushing, distortion, vocoders, samplers/pitchshifters/timestretchers and modulated delay type fx as potential contaminants to the honest presentation of a featured synths range and limitations.

Without some sensible limit on fx, it becomes possible to create a track with no more than the click of a pair of sticks. Maybe if there is enough support for a One-Sample-Challenge we can accomodate all the Fx junkies out there

Anyway, thats my view .. which I am sure many are already familiar with, carry on and discuss

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V'ger - Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:56 pm

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Well argued, hard to counter any of that.

But was bitcrushing specifically disallowed before?

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gorgorgathgorgorgor - Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:41 pm

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We could do one with a piano and all the fx you want... but that wouldn't really be a One Synth Challenge...

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satYatunes - Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:34 pm

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if we select "4 front piano" as the synth... then it'll still qualify as one synth challenge.

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V'ger - Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:36 am

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Suit me as I'm quite into piano atm after not really enjoying the sound before, but believe even 4 Front uses samples also which I don't know how well fits? There are however pure synths that can do decent piano sounds I believe.

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gorgorgathgorgorgor - Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:24 pm

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I noticed that the process of choosing a synth is less formal than submissions and voting. might it help if we added one more thread for each OSC to formalize this a little more, and include a "news" item to get it started? Those of us who use the rss feed would then be prompted to participate...

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V'ger - Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:20 pm

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In theory a good idea, but just look at the last voting threads how few nominated a synth and even this one how little participation there is generally. We are also limited to 2 sticky threads, so the thread would likely fall off the radar pretty quickly. But I guess we could try, maybe for OSC 27.

But how are you all generally for using commercial synths? I'm thinking it would fit KVR well to do both freeware and payware stuff, but not necessarily every other month. Maybe pro stuff every 3rd month?

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el-bo (formerly ebow) - Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:37 pm

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any idea when the osc will, again, be viable for us mac AU users...never entered, but might like to give it a go

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gorgorgathgorgorgor - Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:17 pm

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Not feelin' the pay-synth thing particularly...
Had a crazy idea though, OSC winner picks next OSC synth, or three we can vote on.

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V'ger - Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:48 pm

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Yes those are the alternatives, but it's been proven how little people will vote on synths generally. Of course this might pick up if only a choice of 3, but as it was, one could vote for absolutely any synth of all your favorites and still no one really did.. If we made a separate thread for synth vote, do you think it should be choice of 3 or free?

As for winners choosing, we had losers choosing before and there were some untested choices with bugs etc. It might be better with winners in that they have often been longer on the scene etc, but there's always the chance they will not take further part and just throw one out there without really testing or thinking how it fits in the line. I'm choosing for the next comp, but might still get it wrong despite having put some thought into it, so I guess it's minimal..


Unfortunately so limited cross platform synths, but check previous page for a short list and what you would prefer from those. (keeping in mind we've done 2 TAL's and Crystal already).

As it is, for next comp will be a cross platform but between Win and Linux, guess what it will be..

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HiEnergy - Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:26 am

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Does its name start with 'Z' and end in the letter 'X'?

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el-bo (formerly ebow) - Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:51 am

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a waste of time ??

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V'ger - Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:12 am

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Which one of those?

Why do you say that?

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el-bo (formerly ebow) - Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:17 am

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just a joke

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gorgorgathgorgorgor - Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:27 am

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How 'bout Free Alpha3? I know it's a bit stripped down from the payware, but still looks interesting, and it is cross-platform...

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el-bo (formerly ebow) - Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:55 am

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that looks fun

there's also this

http://davenoise.com/blog/?p=25

but it might not be flexible enough

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el-bo (formerly ebow) - Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:09 am

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also 'symptohm meloman pe'..pretty fixed, but.....

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V'ger - Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:38 pm

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Symptohm loads and plays standard samples so not really fitting with the tweak challenge here..

Harmony Box is a possibility, but maybe a bit too far left field?

The old Free Alpha has been updated by Hispasonic, but their download is not online. (I'm checking with them about it).

And then there's daHornet, which I know a dubstepper has as a fave for being analogish, but it's crackling a lot here on Reaper PC. Maybe Claw is better?

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el-bo (formerly ebow) - Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:33 pm

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that 'free alpha' update is win/vst only...and an intel version of 'daHornet' costs $9

don't know about the other...do you have a link??

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V'ger - Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:58 pm

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Hispasonic Alpha is for Mac also: http://www.hispasonic.com/noticias/hispasonic-regala-dos-plugins-vst/418

..and daHornet is free for both OS's: http://www.nusofting.liqihsynth.com/download.html

Claw is from reFX: http://www.kvraudio.com/get/305.html and KVR rank 80.

Claw and I to a degree daHornet are bass synths, and here NWBass is imo better sounding than both. A tad limiting to make a tune with a bass synth with few controls, but possible.

So far the best sounding imo is Orca, but controls are limited.

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el-bo (formerly ebow) - Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:13 pm

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that hispasonic page talks of mac, but if you follow the d'load link it only gives a windows link and that link doesn't work, either

as for daHornet ?? if you look to the far right you'll see a box telling that to get the universal binary, for intel, you need to make a minimum donation of $9...the other download doesn't validate ion my computer

and the link to d'load claw from the kvr page comes uo as 404, and i can't find any mention on the refx site

orca works but, as you say, could be a bit limited

i might have to duck out....i do have bootcamp, but my duet will not work under windows so no joy there....unless there's a viable au that we've missed then you are better off without me...it seems you have already used the obvious choices

thanks, anyway

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Mac of BIOnighT - Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:30 pm

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Without giving too many private details, I hope...

(sorry, I know that's corny, but I just have to do it every now and then )

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