KVR :: Soniccouture » Ondes Martenot??? [View Original Topic]
There are 35 posts in this topic.

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dhalfen - Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:18 am

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Oh YEAH!!!

Yet another way in which you must deprive me of my moolah!

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TristezaOrange - Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:36 am

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yeah, I just saw the mail! Sweet!

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soniccouture - Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:12 am

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yes -it should be ready fairly soon. we've been waiting for Kontakt 4.2 to be released, as Ondes relies on some new functionality in there.

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robojam - Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:17 am

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How would it be controlled in Kontakt? Not just keys I assume?

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soniccouture - Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:04 pm

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We've come up with various real-time control options that can be setup according to taste, playing ability and available equipment.

But, yes - of course we have to assume that most users only have a keyboard available. Any sampled recreation of an Ondes Martenot will be a compromise, even if you do happen to have a ring controller or even a doepfer ribbon controller ( which we have).

We have tested it using an inexpensive Korg Nanopad which has an X-Y control pad on it - this gives good results. We'd recommend any kind of MIDI ribbon or pad controller for adding expression, but it's certainly not essential.

In fact, we were surprised to see Thomas Bloch playing a lot of passages on the Ondes Martenot without using the Ring control at all, just using the keyboard in a conventional way. I think many people don't realise that the ring control is just one part of what is an incredibly versatile instrument ( I certainly didn't). Another important part is the way vibrato is controlled from the keyboard - the entire keyboard is mounted on rails in such a way that you can 'wobble' it left and right to create vibrato with your finger as you play.

Another big part of the authentic O.M. sound comes from the 3 speaker units that come with the instrument. We have extensively sampled Impulse responses from these, so that the user can use one or all of the speakers separately or at once, from different mic distances etc. Personally i love this function, it makes it possible to add so much character just by mixing the outputs of different speakers.

Because of the character of the speakers and of the individual oscillators, we decided to take the kontakt instrument further, and we have built a separate, complimentary instrument called the 'Poly-Ondes'. This is great for pad sounds, blending the 7 different osc sounds through the 3 speakers sounds really unique.

James

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soniccouture - Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:39 am

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more demos here :

http://soundcloud.com/soniccouture/sets/ondes-1/

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swartzfeger - Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:01 am

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It's available and it sounds great!

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EvilDragon - Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:32 am

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Amazing sounding library, guys! Congratulations!


I'm gonna have to save up for that Super Ribbon Controller for my Kurzweil PC3K8 now!

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soniccouture - Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:36 am

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we recommend the Korg Nanopad for those on a budget.. works well, and is only 50 dollars or so.

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EvilDragon - Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:47 am

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Well, I'm using my PC3K8 for live performance as well, ribbon can be useful there too, and I wanted to get it anyways. I just need to wait for it to become available again.


But yeah I can see how Nanopad can work great for those on a budget, too.

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geronimo - Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:48 am

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Kontakt script more and more worked, driven !

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TristezaOrange - Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:50 am

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Can't wait to get this!

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maceasy - Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:33 am

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You'e really done it this time. You guys have excelled yourselves. I am just listening to the example files - this is extraordinarily good - really sounds the part, especially the pitch ribbon thing - amazing job and an absolute no brainer to buy!

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aMUSEd - Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:43 am

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How do you get the smoothness of the continuous pitch changes using samples?

Surely something like an Ondes Martinot is best done using modelling synthesis?

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EvilDragon - Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:07 am

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Well, scripted portamento goes a long way

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jensa - Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:30 pm

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It sounds absolutely wonderful! Great work boys!

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Hitchcock Bell - Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:31 pm

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Very interested in this Ondes recreation. A couple of questions:

Will the impulse responses be available to use in other convo reverbs. A great advantage of this would be to use them in conjunction with the French Connection ribbon keyboard/analog synth module combo to produce very authentic Martenot sounds.

Also, how does the sampled Ondes cope with wide mulit-octave glissandi? I've loved that particular feature of the instrument ever since I heard this beautiful TV series theme tune (Out Of The Unknown) when I was child in the 70s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQBMGl-kjOE

Notice how the glissandi "scoops" - the volume ducks slightly before it hits the top note, thus producing a very emotional, violinistic effect. This is a key feature of the instrument even between shorter note spans. Also notice the intensity of the vibrato - quite fast and deep. Again, this is very emotional and beautifully expressive. Any of this possible? If so, could Soniccouture post a demo?

Thanks.

p.s. the actual tv episode featured in the youtube video above is not only a poor example of the series, but also actually unpleasant and irresponsible (the thoughtlessness of some 1970s TV producers!). Ignore it and just listen to the main theme.

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EvilDragon - Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

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Since Ondes is a Kontakt Player library, the impulses are packed within the monoliths. So the impulses are not available for usage in other convolvers.

Should handle multi-octave glissandi just fine. Even the factory Unisono-Portamento script handles 88 keys worth of portamento without a hitch.

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soniccouture - Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:57 am

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they aren't currently available seperately, no, since they are a valuable part of the Ondes package.
the french connection controller can be used to control Kontakt if used over a CV to MIDI convertor, although not as smooth as CV on it's own, of course.



i think a few of our audio demos have multi-octave swoops, no? i'd have to double check. they certainly have plenty of vibrato.

Anyway, your question about the volume modulation - this is not a feature of the Ondes per se, but a feature of the the player on that piece of music - the volume envelope of the ondes is controlled in real time by the player, using the touche d'intensité. Vibrato speed is also entirely controlled in realtime by the players hand, so it too is down to you how fast you play it once you have setup your controllers. we also offer an 'easy' LFO based vibrato, but for authentic results, the vibrato should be played manually.

we have provided several different ways to set these parameters up over MIDI -you can download the MIDI quickstart guide and the full manual from the PDF section of the webpage :

http://www.soniccouture.com/en/products/g27-ondes/

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Hitchcock Bell - Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:50 pm

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Ok. Thanks. Yes, I've been listening to more of the audio demos and there are indeed a few wide gliss effects. I'm a glutton for them so I'd love to hear even more.

Would you recommend the Doepfer ribbon controller over the French Connection? If so could you say why? The problem with the Doepfer seems to be that its ribbon is not pitch graded - there's no indication of what note you're about to play until you you touch the strip. Whereas the French C has the physical keyboard layout as a guide, just like the real Martenot.

I hadn't realised that technology had advanced to where midi samplers like Kontakt could be used with CV ribbon controllers like the Deopfer and French Connection. Could you or someone else explain a bit more how that works? They certainly seem to be the ideal controllers for the Ondes.

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soniccouture - Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:16 pm

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Alfred,

I think I should clarify a couple of points here:

Although the Kontakt engine can do wide glissandos that work very nicely with the Ondes library, we don't realize these with a direct pitch controller like you find on the Ondes Martenot or the French Connection. That kind of direct control of pitch is far beyond the scope of MIDI resolution.

Instead we do it with controlled portamento. Kontakt can do very convincing pitch glides so long as it's given a "destination MIDI note". So by controlling that portamento, with varying speed and real-time vibrato, we can get a very convincing result. But in fact the input data is quite different.

In the demonstration video you see me use a Doepfer ribbon, but I'm not using this in the same way as the "ruban" of an Ondes or a French Connection, I'm using it for pressure and vibrato (ie. small pitch variations). Any pitch glide beyond a few semitones I need to invoke the portamento to achieve.



Unfortunately it hasn't. Even if you convert your ring controller to MIDI, you won't be able to accurately control the sampled Ondes in this manner. As you're probably aware, the ring on the French Connection covers several octaves, and you can't convert this with any precision in MIDI. (In fact, pitch resolution is just one of several problems in converting this behaviour to MIDI, but it's the primary one.) There's a reason your French Connection doesn't come equipped with a MIDI out; Analogue Systems haven't found a solution either.

New protocols such as OSC can provide the kind of pitch accuracy needed to imitate the Ondes behaviour with electronic instruments, but it's early days yet, and no firm conception exists of how a sampler (essentially a legacy MIDI device) should operate within that framework.

Hoping not to be just a bringer of bad news... our sampled Ondes can sound very real, as I think is evident in the demos. But it requires a slight shift in performance method to get the desired result. We do provide MIDI files of several of the demos to demonstrate how each was achieved.

All the best,
Dan
Soniccouture

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Hitchcock Bell - Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:05 pm

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Belated thanks for your detailed reply. I shall be investigating your Ondes with enthusiasm.

Meanwhile, roll on the day when expressive controllers like ribbons can finally control midi with accuracy. It might change everything.

Luck and thanks for your imagination and persistence of vision
Hitch (Alfred... heh heh... liked that)

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audiosabre - Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:22 am

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I am interested in buying this library. I love these ancient synths (I also own the Novachord library).

Just a quick question; is it possible for me to manually control vibrato using Aftertouch? After watching Thomas' performance, this method would seem pretty authentic; just like wobbling the keyboard.

Thanks.

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soniccouture - Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:38 am

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Hi,
yes, and it works very well -you can see it in our tutorial video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOB_hgGxkSo


you can also control vibrato using any other MIDI controller as well.


James

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audiosabre - Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:52 am

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That's great news. Mine's a CME UF7. How are those UF v2?

I'm definitely in

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Korky - Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:23 pm

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The Kurzweil PC3 with the Kurz ribbon controller and a Yamaha breath controller is a crackingly good combo for playing Ondes - I've been using these to great effect. The ribbon covers a maximum two octave range (one octave up/down either side of the centre point) which is fine for most note transitions. I found it best to divide a melody into shorter musical phrases, playing only the starting note of each phrase, and using the ribbon to play the rest of the phrase. The markings on the ribbon, which are marked out conveniently in whole tones, make it quite easy to play melodies with accuracy and very authentic 'real life' vibrato and ballistics when sliding from note to note. The breath controller also does the 'touch d'intensite' duties with much better controllability than aftertouch. If you co-ordinate your breath and sliding movements well, you can get incredibly close to the expressivity of the real thing. Until I find a spare £15,000 to buy one of those new repro Ondes Martenots, this slightly cheaper alternative will do me nicely!

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ErikH - Wed May 16, 2012 2:27 pm

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I assigned many of the functions of the Ondes to my Novation ZeRO SLMkII which works just fine. Only: I would like to assign the pitch/portamento to the Zero's pan slider, which is feasable, so I could use the Modulation wheel of the keyboard for the vibrato intensity. This I don't seem to be able to do.
Is this possible, and if so: can someone give me a hint on how to proceed?
Thanks!
BTW: Ondes is addictive. Never had more fun with a virtual instrument than with this one!

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Korky - Thu May 17, 2012 3:40 am

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Hi Erik,
I'm guessing you mean you want to assign the portamento speed to your Pan slider? This is very easy to do:

Note that the portamento speed knob is pre-assigned to the mod wheel, and needs to be unassigned from that first, or it will stubbornly continue to receive mod wheel messages, whatever else you do! Go to the Ondes Setup page, and right-click on the glide speed knob. It will pop up a 'Learn MIDI CC# Automation' message - click on this. Now waggle any controller slider (even the mod wheel), and the knob should respond in turn. Now, right-click the knob again, and you'll see two pop-up items - 'Learn MIDI CC# Automation' and 'Remove MIDI Automation'. Click on the 'Remove' item, and the knob should stop responding to all MIDI CCs.
Next, look at the controller assignments on the right - click in the CC# box next to 'Glide Speed' and select CC2 from the drop-down menu. Then, click in the CC# box next to 'Vibrato Depth' and select CC1 from the drop-down menu.
That's it - your Pan slider should now control Glide Speed, and your mod wheel control vibrato depth.

You may find that the default vibrato speed is too slow, but you can change this, as long as you're running Ondes in a full version of Kontakt (not the Kontakt Player). It's a little more complicated, but still easy to do.
Click on the Wrench icon (the instrument's edit button) at the top left of the Ondes instrument. When the editing page opens, click on the Group Editor button near the top, and make sure the 'Edit All Groups' button is on (it should go red). This is important, otherwise you'll only be editing one of the Ondes timbres - and you need to do the next bit to all of them identically.

Now, scroll to the bottom of the edit page where you'll see a collapsed bar titled 'Modulation', with an arrowed button by the title. Click on the button - the panel will open to reveal three modules: Pitch, Volume and Cutoff. In the Pitch module, change the value of the Frequency knob to, say, 1Hz (or thereabouts, depending on taste). If the mod wheel is up, you'll hear the speed change as you change the LFO frequency value.

Needless to say, once you've got everything the way you want, re-save the Ondes patch under a new name, so you can come back to it any time you like.

Hope this explanation helps - let me know how you get on.

You're right - Ondes is very addictive

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Korky - Thu May 17, 2012 3:48 am

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Hi again Erik,

I just realised I said to assign CC2 for the pan knob, when I meant to say CC10..! CC2 is of course for breath control, not pan. Just substitute 'CC2' with 'CC10' and you'll be OK.

My brain hurts... Dur!!!

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ErikH - Thu May 17, 2012 12:03 pm

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Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain this in detail.
I am indeed running Kontakt 5 , not the player as Glassworks and Ondes gave me the option to crossgrade, making it a bargain.

Thanks again! Much appreciated.

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Korky - Thu May 17, 2012 2:45 pm

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You're welcome Erik!

There's one other little tweak you can do to add a little variation to the otherwise fixed modulation speed...

On the Ondes setup page, assign the vibrato rate to CC1 as well, and adjust the response curve (the other little box next to it) to a reverse exponential curve by clicking in the box and dragging the mouse downwards. Now, as you apply more mod wheel, the vibrato speed also changes, giving a less predictable feel. You might need to readjust the base LFO speed (as described in my first reply) - when I set mine up like this I set it about 3.0Hz.

Have fun!

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ErikH - Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:43 am

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Just wanted to share this with you all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrYgm5MML58&feature=related

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Korky - Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:19 am

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An absolutely beautiful piece, Erik - thanks for posting

Sadly, Jeanne Loriod (the soloist on that piece) died earlier this year. But thenks to YouTube, we can still see her at work - in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpdK-kSW4KA we can see her at work with her Ondes sextet. The sound quality is a bit noisy, but worth putting up with!

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ErikH - Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:36 am

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Thanks.

There's also Tristan Murail who played Ondes and also composed for the instrument. ( Les courants de l'espace )

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Nantonos - Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:09 am

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(oops)

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There are 35 posts in this topic.