KVR :: Everything Else (Music related) » What is good guitar tone???? [View Original Topic]
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hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:27 pm
After all these years I no longer feel I can tell what is/isn't good guitar tone anymore.
My hope in this thread is to hear some examples and maybe some explanation of how you got there. I would like to hope that this can be a "reality" check but not some crazy flame fest where people are so overly attached to "what they like" that things can't be discussed......constructive criticism should be WELCOMED, not taken personally
Impossible? we'll see.
Here are a couple of examples from the past that I at least thought were decent.
http://www.box.net/shared/kfnzt4e7aq
http://www.box.net/shared/mmnk3f8m91
http://www.box.net/shared/e0yys0jmpp
Hink - Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:39 pm
there is no way to give examples of 'a' good guitar tone, only 'your' good guitar tone not too mention for me the first question would be 'for what?' as it varies quite a bit. Form me a good guitar tone is the sits well, whether in a mix or alone and one that I can 'get into'
bluedad - Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:40 pm
Is there 'bad' guitar tone?
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:45 pm
Good question, many answers.
A few of my criteria :
- the more nuances of your playing (both hands) are preserved the better, it is complex, direct expression that sets us apart from lesser instruments
Granted, it'll bring out your deficiencies too, but it's so much worth the pain ...
In doubt you can always work on getting better.
- it should still allow you to play full chords including 3rds and 6ths without "arrrrrgh
" , don't lock you out from the power of harmony
- it should be balanced in volume and tone all over the neck
- it has to work in the current context, meaning :
--- it should not be masked, aka it should cut through the mix
--- it should not get in the way of the vocals or other instruments more than inevitable, ideally it should enhance them
- basically a studio tone can only be judged in context, a live tone (as a compromise) by how many situations it covers gracefully
- and then there are the one trick ponies, i.e. special FX, take Rabin's "Owner of a Lonely Heart" tone - anything goes here, really
Ymmv,
susiwong
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:51 pm
bluedad wrote:
Is there 'bad' guitar tone?
Yes. With minimal effort, people can get horrendous guitar tone
Maybe even some of my examples are bad. hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:55 pm
susiwong wrote:
Good question, many answers.
A few of my criteria :
- the more nuances of your playing (both hands) are preserved the better, it is complex, direct expression that sets us apart from lesser instruments
Granted, it'll bring out your deficiencies too, but it's so much worth the pain ...
In doubt you can always work on getting better.
- it should still allow you to play full chords including 3rds and 6ths without "arrrrrgh " , don't lock you out from the power of harmony
- it should be balanced in volume and tone all over the neck
- it has to work in the current context, meaning :
--- it should not be masked, aka it should cut through the mix
--- it should not get in the way of the vocals or other instruments more than inevitable, ideally it should enhance them
- basically a studio tone can only be judged in context, a live tone (as a compromise) by how many situations it covers gracefully
- and then there are the one trick ponies, i.e. special FX, take Rabin's "Owner of a Lonely Heart" tone - anything goes here, really
Ymmv,
susiwong
A few of my criteria :
- the more nuances of your playing (both hands) are preserved the better, it is complex, direct expression that sets us apart from lesser instruments
Granted, it'll bring out your deficiencies too, but it's so much worth the pain ...
In doubt you can always work on getting better.
- it should still allow you to play full chords including 3rds and 6ths without "arrrrrgh
" , don't lock you out from the power of harmony
- it should be balanced in volume and tone all over the neck
- it has to work in the current context, meaning :
--- it should not be masked, aka it should cut through the mix
--- it should not get in the way of the vocals or other instruments more than inevitable, ideally it should enhance them
- basically a studio tone can only be judged in context, a live tone (as a compromise) by how many situations it covers gracefully
- and then there are the one trick ponies, i.e. special FX, take Rabin's "Owner of a Lonely Heart" tone - anything goes here, really
Ymmv,
susiwong
Good tips.
I think though when I say guitar tone I'm referring to the entire package (in case I missed something)
My guitars get good tone (well, 3 out of 4
) but I'm increasingly wondering about the finished result. Seems to me that not too long ago I was in love with the "tone" that I got from guitar to amp sim. I'm questioning that big time now. susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:59 pm
Re your examples, judged as allround tone , imho :
(3) much too limiting, see previous post
(2) basically ok, although it has some unpleasant artifacts around the notes, a dead giveaway it's not a real tube amp
(1) is by far the best of the bunch, seems to be touch sensitive, artifacts almost not noticeable, relatively balanced, this qualifies as a good one.
These are opinions, nothing more.
Ymmv,
susiwong
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:08 pm
I cannot hear these "artifacts" everyone else can
3 was not limited at all by me, but I can tell you it is "headcase" and was a quick and dirty experiment. Any limiting is something inherently inside the amp sim as I don't use limiting.
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:25 pm
hibidy wrote:
I cannot hear these "artifacts" everyone else can
3 was not limited at all by me, but I can tell you it is "headcase" and was a quick and dirty experiment. Any limiting is something inherently inside the amp sim as I don't use limiting.
3 was not limited at all by me, but I can tell you it is "headcase" and was a quick and dirty experiment. Any limiting is something inherently inside the amp sim as I don't use limiting.
No, no, "limiting" in terms of expressive options, not "limited" as in compressed.
Compressed it certainly is
, nature of the beast.
Re artifacts, listen for unpleasant, tiny little bursts of harsh clipping during the attack phase of notes, you hear them best with double stops
In fact, the very first bar of (2) is the most obvious example
The sustain phase can have artifacts, too, though these often get masked by other mix elements
(1) also has some artefacts, though they are much less disturbing to my ears.
Ymmv,
susiwong
mandolarian - Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:26 pm
Good guitar tone is what you had before you asked the question. Now it's gone. My tone! My Tone! My precious Tone! Time to buy a gazoo.
Quote:
Seems to me that not too long ago I was in love with the "tone" that I got from guitar to amp sim. I'm questioning that big time now.
Yeah...welcome to the fickle ear club. You'll like it here. For awhile. Then you'll get tired of us. Then you'll think we're all idiots. Then you'll believe we tricked you into joining in the first place.
Tone is just so personal, temporal and fickle. Only possible suggestion I could make is to go back to basics. No amp sims for a month. Just you and one guitar and one pedal. Get you mojo going. Then see where it leads. Maybe to the gazoo, maybe not. But, the journey is the thing. Take the trip down mojo road. It's worth it. Your tone is bigger than any amp sim. That or you could buy more amp sims and indulge the obsessive aural disorder until IK goes out of business.
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:33 pm
mandolarian wrote:
the journey is the thing. Take the trip down mojo road. It's worth it. Your tone is bigger than any amp sim.
... or amp, fwiw, as it comes from your personality and imagination more than anything else.
Very true.
But I think hibidy investigates the technical aspects atm.
Ymmv,
susiwong
mandolarian - Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:43 pm
susiwong wrote:
But I think hibidy investigates the technical aspects atm.
Ymmv,
susiwong
Exactly my point. Those technical aspects can only be solved by positive procrastination or other metaphysical slights of fancy. Investigating them by talking about them on KVR can only lead to one thing...
More talking.
Hink - Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:54 pm
susiwong wrote:
Good question, many answers.
A few of my criteria :
- the more nuances of your playing (both hands) are preserved the better, it is complex, direct expression that sets us apart from lesser instruments
Granted, it'll bring out your deficiencies too, but it's so much worth the pain ...
In doubt you can always work on getting better.
- it should still allow you to play full chords including 3rds and 6ths without "arrrrrgh " , don't lock you out from the power of harmony
- it should be balanced in volume and tone all over the neck
- it has to work in the current context, meaning :
--- it should not be masked, aka it should cut through the mix
--- it should not get in the way of the vocals or other instruments more than inevitable, ideally it should enhance them
- basically a studio tone can only be judged in context, a live tone (as a compromise) by how many situations it covers gracefully
- and then there are the one trick ponies, i.e. special FX, take Rabin's "Owner of a Lonely Heart" tone - anything goes here, really
Ymmv,
susiwong
A few of my criteria :
- the more nuances of your playing (both hands) are preserved the better, it is complex, direct expression that sets us apart from lesser instruments
Granted, it'll bring out your deficiencies too, but it's so much worth the pain ...
In doubt you can always work on getting better.
- it should still allow you to play full chords including 3rds and 6ths without "arrrrrgh
" , don't lock you out from the power of harmony
- it should be balanced in volume and tone all over the neck
- it has to work in the current context, meaning :
--- it should not be masked, aka it should cut through the mix
--- it should not get in the way of the vocals or other instruments more than inevitable, ideally it should enhance them
- basically a studio tone can only be judged in context, a live tone (as a compromise) by how many situations it covers gracefully
- and then there are the one trick ponies, i.e. special FX, take Rabin's "Owner of a Lonely Heart" tone - anything goes here, really
Ymmv,
susiwong
and here I am thinking that perhaps one can over think the issue and is better off going with what they feel...silly me
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:54 pm
mandolarian wrote:
susiwong wrote:
But I think hibidy investigates the technical aspects atm.
Ymmv,
susiwong
Exactly my point. Those technical aspects can only be solved by positive procrastination or other metaphysical slights of fancy. Investigating them by talking about them on KVR can only lead to one thing...
More talking.
"procrastination" has an artifact at the beginning of the 2nd syllable.
Btw, if you heard me talking it was meant for the cat.
I'm a silent poster.
Lol,
susiwong
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:58 pm
Hink wrote:
and here I am thinking that perhaps one can over think the issue and is better off going with what they feel...silly me
you're perfectly right, of course.
Different approaches, that's all.
We had a little OD- and chorus shootout today, so I'm still in analytical mode I guess.
Ymmv,
susiwong
P.T. - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:01 pm
I don't think there is such a thing as good tone.
It is too subjective and some people love what other people hate.
As an example, I personally can't stand the rough around the edges distortion that is somewhat clean with wool on it. Even though many people consider it the Holy Grail. I don't like your #1 or #2. I would prefer clean to those.
I like #3, which may seem odd given that I don't much care for metal, because once the sound gets into that full on distortion it becomes smooth and starts to sing. It becomes a different instrument. I like it for lead playing.
I think SuziWong's criteria are good ones.
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:01 pm
susiwong wrote:
hibidy wrote:
I cannot hear these "artifacts" everyone else can
3 was not limited at all by me, but I can tell you it is "headcase" and was a quick and dirty experiment. Any limiting is something inherently inside the amp sim as I don't use limiting.
3 was not limited at all by me, but I can tell you it is "headcase" and was a quick and dirty experiment. Any limiting is something inherently inside the amp sim as I don't use limiting.
No, no, "limiting" in terms of expressive options, not "limited" as in compressed.
Compressed it certainly is
, nature of the beast.
Re artifacts, listen for unpleasant, tiny little bursts of harsh clipping during the attack phase of notes, you hear them best with double stops
In fact, the very first bar of (2) is the most obvious example
The sustain phase can have artifacts, too, though these often get masked by other mix elements
(1) also has some artefacts, though they are much less disturbing to my ears.
Ymmv,
susiwong
Ah, I see.
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:04 pm
mandolarian wrote:
Good guitar tone is what you had before you asked the question. Now it's gone. My tone! My Tone! My precious Tone! Time to buy a gazoo.
Yeah...welcome to the fickle ear club. You'll like it here. For awhile. Then you'll get tired of us. Then you'll think we're all idiots. Then you'll believe we tricked you into joining in the first place.
Tone is just so personal, temporal and fickle. Only possible suggestion I could make is to go back to basics. No amp sims for a month. Just you and one guitar and one pedal. Get you mojo going. Then see where it leads. Maybe to the gazoo, maybe not. But, the journey is the thing. Take the trip down mojo road. It's worth it. Your tone is bigger than any amp sim. That or you could buy more amp sims and indulge the obsessive aural disorder until IK goes out of business.
Quote:
Seems to me that not too long ago I was in love with the "tone" that I got from guitar to amp sim. I'm questioning that big time now.
Yeah...welcome to the fickle ear club. You'll like it here. For awhile. Then you'll get tired of us. Then you'll think we're all idiots. Then you'll believe we tricked you into joining in the first place.
Tone is just so personal, temporal and fickle. Only possible suggestion I could make is to go back to basics. No amp sims for a month. Just you and one guitar and one pedal. Get you mojo going. Then see where it leads. Maybe to the gazoo, maybe not. But, the journey is the thing. Take the trip down mojo road. It's worth it. Your tone is bigger than any amp sim. That or you could buy more amp sims and indulge the obsessive aural disorder until IK goes out of business.
I dunno, I think people listen to something and the law of averages gives you some idea.
BTW, this wasn't meant to be a "help hibidy get good tone" thread, I was hoping for examples and comparisons as well. However, I think talking about it is a good thing.
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:07 pm
mandolarian wrote:
susiwong wrote:
But I think hibidy investigates the technical aspects atm.
Ymmv,
susiwong
Exactly my point. Those technical aspects can only be solved by positive procrastination or other metaphysical slights of fancy. Investigating them by talking about them on KVR can only lead to one thing...
More talking.
I dunno about the technical aspects being it as much as a reality check. How do I learn/check/etc without giving an example and listening to what people say?
More talking? Yeah, it IS a forum......even a music forum at that
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:08 pm
Hink wrote:
susiwong wrote:
Good question, many answers.
A few of my criteria :
- the more nuances of your playing (both hands) are preserved the better, it is complex, direct expression that sets us apart from lesser instruments
Granted, it'll bring out your deficiencies too, but it's so much worth the pain ...
In doubt you can always work on getting better.
- it should still allow you to play full chords including 3rds and 6ths without "arrrrrgh " , don't lock you out from the power of harmony
- it should be balanced in volume and tone all over the neck
- it has to work in the current context, meaning :
--- it should not be masked, aka it should cut through the mix
--- it should not get in the way of the vocals or other instruments more than inevitable, ideally it should enhance them
- basically a studio tone can only be judged in context, a live tone (as a compromise) by how many situations it covers gracefully
- and then there are the one trick ponies, i.e. special FX, take Rabin's "Owner of a Lonely Heart" tone - anything goes here, really
Ymmv,
susiwong
A few of my criteria :
- the more nuances of your playing (both hands) are preserved the better, it is complex, direct expression that sets us apart from lesser instruments
Granted, it'll bring out your deficiencies too, but it's so much worth the pain ...
In doubt you can always work on getting better.
- it should still allow you to play full chords including 3rds and 6ths without "arrrrrgh
" , don't lock you out from the power of harmony
- it should be balanced in volume and tone all over the neck
- it has to work in the current context, meaning :
--- it should not be masked, aka it should cut through the mix
--- it should not get in the way of the vocals or other instruments more than inevitable, ideally it should enhance them
- basically a studio tone can only be judged in context, a live tone (as a compromise) by how many situations it covers gracefully
- and then there are the one trick ponies, i.e. special FX, take Rabin's "Owner of a Lonely Heart" tone - anything goes here, really
Ymmv,
susiwong
and here I am thinking that perhaps one can over think the issue and is better off going with what they feel...silly me
Hink - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:09 pm
susiwong wrote:
Hink wrote:
and here I am thinking that perhaps one can over think the issue and is better off going with what they feel...silly me
you're perfectly right, of course.
Different approaches, that's all.
We had a little OD- and chorus shootout today, so I'm still in analytical mode I guess.
Ymmv,
susiwong
I wish I could put it into words like you did, then maybe I could teach
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:10 pm
P.T. wrote:
I don't think there is such a thing as good tone.
It is too subjective and some people love what other people hate.
As an example, I personally can't stand the rough around the edges distortion that is somewhat clean with wool on it. Even though many people consider it the Holy Grail. I don't like your #1 or #2. I would prefer clean to those.
I like #3, which may seem odd given that I don't much care for metal, because once the sound gets into that full on distortion it becomes smooth and starts to sing. It becomes a different instrument. I like it for lead playing.
I think SuziWong's criteria are good ones.
It is too subjective and some people love what other people hate.
As an example, I personally can't stand the rough around the edges distortion that is somewhat clean with wool on it. Even though many people consider it the Holy Grail. I don't like your #1 or #2. I would prefer clean to those.
I like #3, which may seem odd given that I don't much care for metal, because once the sound gets into that full on distortion it becomes smooth and starts to sing. It becomes a different instrument. I like it for lead playing.
I think SuziWong's criteria are good ones.
I find that very interesting!
Hovmod - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:11 pm
A repeat post for me this, but it can't be read too many times:
http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:14 pm
One thing that often seems to improve overdriven tones for me :
- dial in a tone by gut feeling
chances are it will be too distorted when listening back the next day.
- so what I do is reduce the gain by maybe 20% and make up for the perceived loss by higher monitoring level while tracking - works like a charm with both sims and the real thing, obviously not with headphones
Ymmv,
susiwong
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:22 pm
Hovmod wrote:
A repeat post for me this, but it can't be read too many times:
http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html
http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html
Essential reading, a classic !
Be warned though, while the techniques are universal, the goals he aims for are strictly high-gain / metal specific.
Nothing wrong with that ...
cheers,
susiwong
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:24 pm
Hold on, I get it now
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:39 pm
Only talking about my little neck of the woods
, here are a few folks I feel always have stellar tone in the studio (live is much more unpredictable) :
Knopfler, Betts/Haynes, Grissom, Petty/Campbell, Bonamassa .................
One thing these folks share is a relatively puristic approach to each individual tone.
Maybe listen a bit to tone monsters like these, also from other styles of course, try to find out similarities, and what makes you go "wow" again and again.
In short, ear training.
And use decent audio quality, youtube don't qualify.
Ymmv,
susiwong
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:50 pm
@Bonamassa:
I have the "guitar center sessions" AND the "Prince Albert Hall" on the DVR in HD !
blueman - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:55 pm
blueman wrote:
And...whatever Gilmour does with a Tube Driver into a Highwatt confuses my ears in a VERY good way
Errr, ummm...that's HIWATT <sp>
blueman - Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:56 pm
hibidy wrote:
@Bonamassa:
I have the "guitar center sessions" AND the "Prince Albert Hall" on the DVR in HD !
I have the "guitar center sessions" AND the "Prince Albert Hall" on the DVR in HD !
His tone is magical! He made a believer out of me that the JCM 800 Silver Jubilee truly is... the cat's meow
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:01 pm
hibidy wrote:
@Bonamassa:
I have the "guitar center sessions" AND the "Prince Albert Hall" on the DVR in HD !
I have the "guitar center sessions" AND the "Prince Albert Hall" on the DVR in HD !
You could find worse places to start.
Just make sure it isn't Albert from Monaco.
Lol
susiwong
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:09 pm
Ok, test number 4. To me this is a serviceable higain sound that has a touch of verb. Not saying what it is or where it came from, but these clips are about REALITY CHECKS
http://www.box.net/shared/65dmdkpqs5
Yes, my playing isn't that great.......
BTW *BIG NEON SIGN* If anyone has any examples to post.....please do
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:11 pm
blueman wrote:
I never cared for the cranked "Blackface" Twin or Deluxe sound. It just doesn't work for me I'm the oddball that prefers a "Silver Face" Twin because it's cleaner and has seemingly less "character". It does what it's supposed to do....sound like a clean amp I don't WANT to hear a clean amp breaking up the way a Fender does. That said, a Champ or the right Bassman is another story altogether and I heard a Tone King once that tore my head off! It's hit or miss all around with Fender. Of course, I'll make exceptions for what SRV did with a Vibroverb and a Super Reverb. Those amps do something special in the right hands (just not mine). Fender amps can easily sound like the shittiest amps on the planet in the wrong situation.
I do like the way SOME AC30's break up. That is to say, the Class A tube breakup that is what I think of as "glassy" breakup. But...Bad Cats and other "boutique" amps do it better so I'm not a "Vintage" hard on about it. More hit or miss in this territory. I am also weird enough to prefer a Marshall Plexi for its clean tone
When I heard Robben Ford live through a Dumble, I went...."Oh, I get it now! That really IS the best f*cking amp on the planet!!". At least it was when HE played it
For distortion? I don't want my gain to sizzle. Give me weight and chunk and grit and dirty fingernails. I want it to have a good pair of nutz Orange amps really excel in this territory; big ole chunky cabs and that throaty-growlin'-barkin' tone provide the proper kick to the chest. And...whatever Gilmour does with a Tube Driver into a Highwatt confuses my ears in a VERY good way
F*ck! I don't even know what I'm sayin' here. Guitar tone is the most ridiculous thing on the planet to concern yourself with
I'm the oddball that prefers a "Silver Face" Twin because it's cleaner and has seemingly less "character". It does what it's supposed to do....sound like a clean amp I don't WANT to hear a clean amp breaking up the way a Fender does. That said, a Champ or the right Bassman is another story altogether and I heard a Tone King once that tore my head off! It's hit or miss all around with Fender. Of course, I'll make exceptions for what SRV did with a Vibroverb and a Super Reverb. Those amps do something special in the right hands (just not mine). Fender amps can easily sound like the shittiest amps on the planet in the wrong situation.
I do like the way SOME AC30's break up. That is to say, the Class A tube breakup that is what I think of as "glassy" breakup. But...Bad Cats and other "boutique" amps do it better so I'm not a "Vintage" hard on about it. More hit or miss in this territory. I am also weird enough to prefer a Marshall Plexi for its clean tone
When I heard Robben Ford live through a Dumble, I went...."Oh, I get it now! That really IS the best f*cking amp on the planet!!". At least it was when HE played it
For distortion? I don't want my gain to sizzle. Give me weight and chunk and grit and dirty fingernails. I want it to have a good pair of nutz
Orange amps really excel in this territory; big ole chunky cabs and that throaty-growlin'-barkin' tone provide the proper kick to the chest. And...whatever Gilmour does with a Tube Driver into a Highwatt confuses my ears in a VERY good way
F*ck! I don't even know what I'm sayin' here. Guitar tone is the most ridiculous thing on the planet to concern yourself with
Couldn't agree more, to all your points.
Exception : BF 7enders, I had the same opinion for many years, but I had to eat my words. It's all about the right combination of tubes, speakers, pedals and guitar with them, they can be magic - granted, they are picky beasts and their reputation as plug'n'play sensation is far from the truth ime.
Ymmv,
susiwong
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:14 pm
blueman wrote:
F*ck! I don't even know what I'm sayin' here. Guitar tone is the most ridiculous thing on the planet to concern yourself with
Not here
I'm diggin' it susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:15 pm
hibidy wrote:
Ok, test number 4. To me this is a serviceable higain sound that has a touch of verb. Not saying what it is or where it came from, but these clips are about REALITY CHECKS
http://www.box.net/shared/65dmdkpqs5
Yes, my playing isn't that great.......
BTW *BIG NEON SIGN* If anyone has any examples to post.....please do
http://www.box.net/shared/65dmdkpqs5
Yes, my playing isn't that great.......
BTW *BIG NEON SIGN* If anyone has any examples to post.....please do
That's a very good one !
And the playing is fine, too, no doubt.
Cheers,
susiwong
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:16 pm
susiwong wrote:
hibidy wrote:
@Bonamassa:
I have the "guitar center sessions" AND the "Prince Albert Hall" on the DVR in HD !
I have the "guitar center sessions" AND the "Prince Albert Hall" on the DVR in HD !
You could find worse places to start.
Just make sure it isn't Albert from Monaco.
Lol
susiwong
It's royal albert......
I'll have to get my pipe for the other hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:17 pm
susiwong wrote:
hibidy wrote:
Ok, test number 4. To me this is a serviceable higain sound that has a touch of verb. Not saying what it is or where it came from, but these clips are about REALITY CHECKS
http://www.box.net/shared/65dmdkpqs5
Yes, my playing isn't that great.......
BTW *BIG NEON SIGN* If anyone has any examples to post.....please do
http://www.box.net/shared/65dmdkpqs5
Yes, my playing isn't that great.......
BTW *BIG NEON SIGN* If anyone has any examples to post.....please do
That's a very good one !
Cheers,
susiwong
Really?
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:36 pm
hibidy wrote:
It's royal albert...... I'll have to get my pipe for the other
I'll have to get my pipe for the other Yeah, right.
Re the others, some cheap'n'easy to locate examples, they all have tons more goodies to explore
Haynes & Betts
Allman Brothers - 1990 Seven Turns
Allman Brothers - 1994 Where It All Begins
David Grissom
solo - 2007 Loud Music
solo - 2009 10,000 Feet
Joe Ely - 1990 Live At Liberty Lunch
Knopfler - where to start ?
Petty / Campbell
start with an official Greatest Hits compilation covering a wide range of years - there are several good ones
only a few no-brainers, we all know it doesn't end here.
Cheers,
susiwong
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:41 pm
hibidy wrote:
Really?
[serious]
No kidding.
susiwong
[/serious]
My cat said "this is the rat's ass !
" - high praise indeed, coming from her. hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:56 pm
susiwong wrote:
hibidy wrote:
Really?
[serious]
No kidding.
susiwong
[/serious]
My cat said "this is the rat's ass !
" - high praise indeed, coming from her. thanks to you both
It's the soldano with the orange 1-12, of course you knew I'd cave
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:10 pm
hibidy wrote:
It's the soldano with the orange 1-12, of course you knew I'd cave
Far better than any clips IK posted this time.
Funny, the orange 1-12 is not an obvious choice, but it compliments the tone very well.
Will be interesting how the Scuffham SLO compares, the TH-1 version is not good imho.
LePou's SoloC with good impulses is nice
, but still not quite there imho.
At least we have choices ...
Cheers,
susiwong
susiwong - Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:44 pm
Btw, this is the cat's ass
and this is the other side
susiwong
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:03 pm
Those would be PURRRRRFECT for the "caturday" thread
blueman - Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:09 pm
susiwong wrote:
Knopfler - where to start ?
THE master of clean, tubey goodness
blueman - Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:23 pm
hibidy wrote:
http://www.box.net/shared/65dmdkpqs5
Tube-A-Licious
I might like a sample o' that preset when you're done usin' it
btw, I'm startin' to feel like a crack head in IKM's Custom Shop. They workin' they voodoo on me with these Orange amps and I'm right addicted now
$60 down and another $60 in the cue...save me from myself 
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:48 pm
blueman wrote:
hibidy wrote:
http://www.box.net/shared/65dmdkpqs5
Tube-A-Licious
I might like a sample o' that preset when you're done usin' it
btw, I'm startin' to feel like a crack head in IKM's Custom Shop. They workin' they voodoo on me with these Orange amps and I'm right addicted now
$60 down and another $60 in the cue...save me from myself @crack head: I've promised myself to wait until next month. Of course, you've seen the "I promise thread right
"
@patch: Try in the IK presets on the web site "soldano two" and "soldano two 1"
blueman - Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:00 pm
hibidy wrote:
BTW *BIG NEON SIGN* If anyone has any examples to post.....please do
Here's a scoop o' sloppy biscuits n' gravy using the same Soldano with Orange 112 cab
http://www.box.net/shared/jlr18dtfmz
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:24 pm
blueman wrote:
hibidy wrote:
BTW *BIG NEON SIGN* If anyone has any examples to post.....please do
Here's a scoop o' sloppy biscuits n' gravy using the same Soldano with Orange 112 cab
http://www.box.net/shared/jlr18dtfmz
I suck!
Is that just drop d tuning or do you tune a whole step down? And I have to ask what guitar that is.
blueman - Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:42 pm
hibidy wrote:
I suck!
Is that just drop d tuning or do you tune a whole step down? And I have to ask what guitar that is.
Is that just drop d tuning or do you tune a whole step down? And I have to ask what guitar that is.
No way! Never say such things
I hear some good, melodic sensibilities from what little I've heard you play and I am confident it's nowhere NEAR the suck domain
Guitar is in Drop D. It's a '69 Telecaster Thinline Reissue (Mahogany body) with an SD "Lil' 59" in the bridge. This cheap MIM Fender is a go to guitar for me; one of my better finds. Love it!!
blueman - Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:05 pm
Here's what the neck pup sounds like with one of my new favs, the T-Rex Replica
http://www.box.net/shared/qky3yc5u94
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:07 pm
Ah, the "lil 59" Had one in my tele
@me: I know I shouldn't put myself down so but what pisses me off is how hard a time I have with mistakes and sloppy timing.
When I was a bass player....I was TIGHT! When I first picked the guitar back up about 10 years ago I still had good timing and rarely made any real mistakes. Now, even in the computer/metronome age.....I'm SO sloppy
Anyways, enough of that.
Hink - Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:14 pm
I've given this a ton of thought trying to get this into words that doesn't make me sound like an idiot or an egotist and probably will fail miserably.
It's tough to define a tone because there are so many varieties of tones and it's really such a personal thing. If one thing characterizes tones I like, the common link I believe is the ones I like are all obtuse. At least that's pretty much what I expect others to think of the tones I like, I'm very confident that many people would try my settings and absolutely hate them. Whether it clean, hi-gain or crunch.
An example is that I really dislike fuzz in my tone, I can marvel at the use of it by other guitar players, even sometimes I wish I could sound that way with fuzz. This pattern repeats itself but not with tones I dislike, for instance I will listen to a demo, a clip or a song and wish I was getting that tone, but when I do sit down and get that tone I dont like how I sound or feel playing it.
But wait, it doesn't always have to be the sounds of others. If I play the same thing and record it everyday, even if it's really the same...the versions before will sound stale until they start to sound better from having been further removed from the newer takes.
If I were to record clips of tones I like I'm sure that they would be dreadful and suck by most people's standards, but when I'm playing the tones I stick on they 'take me there'. All kinds of tones can take me there, synth playing can take me there, bass playing can take me there, an acoustic by itself can take me there but none of them are as good as the tones from other people I hear. They're also better than any one else's tones on earth...they are absolutely the best (the ones I that take me there). This is the general concept of my comment when 'best sim' threads come up and I say the best is the one I didn't get, there's this whole vicious circle.
I'm a
and this is why I dont jam or play much with other people and it's also why I can't teach. I can't explain what it is, I know what I call it or see it as in my head, I'm know when tones have the components I like as obtuse as they are...but I can only express it one way to others and I feel most people wont hear it, and I certainly cannot verbalize it.
So here's the truth and quote me on it if you want, I have no clue what good guitar tone is and after dwelling on the concept for a while I think what I thought was a quest for better tones is in reality a quest for 'interesting' tones that probably only interest me.
I do know when I'm happy though because I become euphoric and that's when I'm there, if you dont know where is I'm sorry I can't explain it either...if you do know where there is then you know what I mean. I guess it's also why I do not finish songs much, I spend all my quality playing time there, without a care and all alone...sorry I'm such a whacko
hibidy - Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:24 pm
Geez hink, you are putting yourself down more than me
Actually, I think that makes sense. In fact it SHOULD be about what makes you happy. I love rich/drenched/stereo delay and verb.....I've actually dialed it back quite a bit in my examples
But my mindset is so stale of late. I feel like everything sounds digital and harsh
It IS digital and I'm sure it's somewhat harsh to some but I think I'm overthinking it
I could not have DREAMED for this thread to be as good as it's been
More (taps on the vein ) MORE!
Hink - Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:27 pm
hibidy wrote:
Geez hink, you are putting yourself down more than me
I didn't put myself down
susiwong - Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:04 am
Can't we agree that we all suck and just move on ?
Compared to the guys I mentioned, and to millions others afaics ?
Still makes a few billions that suck even more, so what.
Rich, very nice clip !
Anyone noticed how different, but equally good, it sounds compared to hibidy's ?
Hink, I think your issue is the worrying here, not the quest for better tone itself. Who said "it's about the journey" was perfectly right.
And who wouldn't know the "grass is greener" effect ?
All that said, I believe there are certain criteria a player will discover over the years that help him find good tone easier once he gets them out of his subconscious and tries to understand them a bit closer.
On some he will agree with the next person, on some not, doesn't matter.
The guy I did the pedal shootout with yesterday, a good friend and my electronics guru, comes from the opposite side of the tonal spectrum. Where I'm going for smooth, clear and warm, he enjoys the quirky, noisy and potentially harsh Hendrix style of sounds. And guess what ? In the end we had almost 100% agreement over what pedal works best for a certain job, there were no universal criteria and no universal winners.
Well, except maybe that once again nothing could touch the Klon when it came to boosting a crunchy Marshall into lead. It's more about feel though, the way it translates your playing into tone, so clips ain't worth crap here I'm afraid.
And my friend sounded radically different from me, same guitar, same settings.
Good tone allows the personality of the player to come through ...
And finally, Hink, try a good Germanium fuzz like the Fulltone 69 and then we'll talk again, I hate most other fuzzes, too.
Ymmv,
susiwong
blueman - Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:24 am
Hink wrote:
...sorry I'm such a whacko
you're in good company though
blueman - Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:34 am
susiwong wrote:
Good tone allows the personality of the player to come through ...
Well said! But I guess we'll spend a lifetime discovering that "personality".
I used to marvel at how players would discuss different tubes, pickups, and the like wondering...HOW do they KNOW all this technical stuff?! Years later, I realized that most players (yes, even the really good ones) had A LOT of help from studio engineers and producers who've spent YEARS with their ear in front of speakers and knew industry tricks about how to get the tone happening. So, it isn't realistic to judge our sensibilities against our favorite artist who had exposure to the best equipment and engineers in the world. That certainly helped them get "their tone".
Many people assume that SRV found his tone by himself and that's just not true! He always had good people behind him workin' hard to make him sound the best he could including an inspirational brother in Jimmy who's influence is sadly, underrated.
iow, it takes a village to raise a guitar player
robojam - Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:42 am
I'm not sure that 'good' tone really matters. There are plenty of guitarists who use cheap, crappy equipment deliberately or just don't care about tone. That doesn't detract from their music in any way.
If tone matters to you, then that's a different story.
BERFAB - Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:59 am
I have to agree with much of what Hink said, but emphasize that it is very subjective.
What has always confused me though (and I believe I've participated in other thread discussions on this) is the discussion of each guitar's own 'tone.' My personal view is that acoustic instruments all have elements that contribute to their own unique tone (i.e. wood selection, F hole placement and shape, body shape, string characteristics, etc.).
But reading the posts in this thread, it would seem that many agree, at least in part, with my own feeling on electric guitars, which is, with the available amp sim/effect algo technology, as long as it is in tune, you can pretty much create any 'tone' you would like with any guitar.
I agree that various guitars will 'play' differently, owing to a number of elements. And, in turn, 'playability' affects performance. But the resultant dry sound can very easily be manipulated into virtually any possible tone.
Am I wrong?
-B
surferman - Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:11 am
Tone comes from the fingers...
just not my fingers...
Hink - Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:58 am
susiwong wrote:
And finally, Hink, try a good Germanium fuzz like the Fulltone 69 and then we'll talk again, I hate most other fuzzes, too.
Ymmv,
susiwong
Ymmv,
susiwong
I have two germanian diodes* sitting the spare parts bag from building the tubesreamer...I also found a great site that sells eletronic parts with no minimum order. I'm going to mod my dist+ and I though about swapping out the the diodes with the germanium ones I have but I also found a mod diagram that calls for two specific germanium diodes. I also found an easy mod for a tone control, both mods will cost me inder 5 dollars inparts (the also sell a 100 count bag or LEDs (you can get them in many colors but apparently not a mixed bag) for $1.65. Of course LEDs make for nice clippers too.
I thought recently I saw a kit for a fulltone replica but I can't find it right now, but I will keep it mind.
*I may over the weeks, months and years to come use the term 'clippers' more often than diodes unless the clippers are noy diodes.
susiwong - Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:15 am
BERFAB wrote:
I have to agree with much of what Hink said, but emphasize that it is very subjective.
What has always confused me though (and I believe I've participated in other thread discussions on this) is the discussion of each guitar's own 'tone.' My personal view is that acoustic instruments all have elements that contribute to their own unique tone (i.e. wood selection, F hole placement and shape, body shape, string characteristics, etc.).
But reading the posts in this thread, it would seem that many agree, at least in part, with my own feeling on electric guitars, which is, with the available amp sim/effect algo technology, as long as it is in tune, you can pretty much create any 'tone' you would like with any guitar.
I agree that various guitars will 'play' differently, owing to a number of elements. And, in turn, 'playability' affects performance. But the resultant dry sound can very easily be manipulated into virtually any possible tone.
Am I wrong?
-B
What has always confused me though (and I believe I've participated in other thread discussions on this) is the discussion of each guitar's own 'tone.' My personal view is that acoustic instruments all have elements that contribute to their own unique tone (i.e. wood selection, F hole placement and shape, body shape, string characteristics, etc.).
But reading the posts in this thread, it would seem that many agree, at least in part, with my own feeling on electric guitars, which is, with the available amp sim/effect algo technology, as long as it is in tune, you can pretty much create any 'tone' you would like with any guitar.
I agree that various guitars will 'play' differently, owing to a number of elements. And, in turn, 'playability' affects performance. But the resultant dry sound can very easily be manipulated into virtually any possible tone.
Am I wrong?
-B
Very much so, sorry, BERFAB.
Take a generic guitar type, say a Strat.
Go to a decent guitar store and try a few S-types, unplugged.
Worlds of difference.
Wood (primarily), scale, frets, hardware, finish, precision of build - they all matter big time.
One thing however : these differences matter less the more distorted you play.
And some are a matter of taste, a maple fretboard is not better than a rosewood board, but it's different.
Once you start combining components to "your chain", things are getting more complex, you can balance out factors, fine tune the overall response ...
All this might not matter to a live audience so much, but a player who is inspired by his tone tends to play better.
My personal guess would be 35% electronics, 65% these other factors, in the area clean to medium crunch
Ymmv,
susiwong
Hink - Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:16 am
btw before building the tubescreamer I would have had to look up germanium diodes before responding which speaks well for why one should build and mod their own pedals.
susiwong - Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:26 am
Hink wrote:
I have two germanian diodes* sitting the spare parts bag from building the tubesreamer...I also found a great site that sells eletronic parts with no minimum order. I'm going to mod my dist+ and I though about swapping out the the diodes with the germanium ones I have but I also found a mod diagram that calls for two specific germanium diodes. I also found an easy mod for a tone control, both mods will cost me inder 5 dollars inparts (the also sell a 100 count bag or LEDs (you can get them in many colors but apparently not a mixed bag) for $1.65. Of course LEDs make for nice clippers too.
I thought recently I saw a kit for a fulltone replica but I can't find it right now, but I will keep it mind.
*I may over the weeks, months and years to come use the term 'clippers' more often than diodes unless the clippers are noy diodes.
I thought recently I saw a kit for a fulltone replica but I can't find it right now, but I will keep it mind.
*I may over the weeks, months and years to come use the term 'clippers' more often than diodes unless the clippers are noy diodes.
Not sure how you'll like them in non-fuzz boxes, I was referring to the Fulltone 69 mostly, which I actually enjoy, most other fuzzes are not my thing.
I said it before, bears repeating:
Here you'll find this pedal as well as a wealth of others, not in kit form but all the info needed (register for the good stuff).
http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=247
Ymmv,
susiwong
AetherCoyl - Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:34 am
hibidy wrote:
Hallelujah! Sing and preach brotha! Nice tone and playin
susiwong - Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:39 am
robojam wrote:
I'm not sure that 'good' tone really matters. There are plenty of guitarists who use cheap, crappy equipment deliberately or just don't care about tone. That doesn't detract from their music in any way.
If tone matters to you, then that's a different story.
If tone matters to you, then that's a different story.
Does orthography (sp ?
) matter ?
It probably does if you're a writer.
Does muscle strength matter ?
Probably, if you're wrestling.
Does tone matter ?
If you're into playing music I think it should.
If you're into MTV video stuff however, you'd be better off spending more time on your styling and looking trendy than obsessing about details like major or minor, let alone tone.
Not meant personally, just attempting a reply.
Ymmv,
susiwong
Hink - Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:43 am
susiwong wrote:
Hink wrote:
I have two germanian diodes* sitting the spare parts bag from building the tubesreamer...I also found a great site that sells eletronic parts with no minimum order. I'm going to mod my dist+ and I though about swapping out the the diodes with the germanium ones I have but I also found a mod diagram that calls for two specific germanium diodes. I also found an easy mod for a tone control, both mods will cost me inder 5 dollars inparts (the also sell a 100 count bag or LEDs (you can get them in many colors but apparently not a mixed bag) for $1.65. Of course LEDs make for nice clippers too.
I thought recently I saw a kit for a fulltone replica but I can't find it right now, but I will keep it mind.
*I may over the weeks, months and years to come use the term 'clippers' more often than diodes unless the clippers are noy diodes.
I thought recently I saw a kit for a fulltone replica but I can't find it right now, but I will keep it mind.
*I may over the weeks, months and years to come use the term 'clippers' more often than diodes unless the clippers are noy diodes.
Not sure how you'll like them in non-fuzz boxes, I was referring to the Fulltone 69 mostly, which I actually enjoy, most other fuzzes are not my thing.
I said it before, bears repeating:
Here you'll find this pedal as well as a wealth of others, not in kit form but all the info needed (register for the good stuff).
http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=247
Ymmv,
susiwong
one of the suggested mods to the big muff is germanium diodes...my thoughts on the dist+ are to use a breadboard, an on/off/on switch like was one of the modsin the tubscreamer and I would switch between the silicon diodes in the dist+ and LEDs, off being the clippers lifted and more boost than ditortion...I guess making it a dist +/-
Thanx for the link
susiwong - Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:50 am
Hink wrote:
one of the suggested mods to the big muff is germanium diodes...my thoughts on the dist+ are to use a breadboard, an on/off/on switch like was one of the modsin the tubscreamer and I would switch between the silicon diodes in the dist+ and LEDs, off being the clippers lifted and more boost than ditortion...I guess making it a dist +/-
Thanx for the link
Thanx for the link
Not sure, but afaik something is tricky about polarity in Germanium circuits, so sticking to a proven plan is a good idea here.
Cheers,
susiwong
Hink - Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:52 am
susiwong wrote:
robojam wrote:
I'm not sure that 'good' tone really matters. There are plenty of guitarists who use cheap, crappy equipment deliberately or just don't care about tone. That doesn't detract from their music in any way.
If tone matters to you, then that's a different story.
If tone matters to you, then that's a different story.
Does orthography (sp ?
) matter ?
It probably does if you're a writer.
Does muscle strength matter ?
Probably, if you're wrestling.
Does tone matter ?
If you're into playing music I think it should.
If you're into MTV video stuff however, you'd be better off spending more time on your styling and looking trendy than obsessing about details like major or minor, let alone tone.
Not meant personally, just attempting a reply.
Ymmv,
susiwong
still too subjective, once again the story of the amp my father and I refurbished for my first amp. (an old ham radio amp) He was so impressed with how clean it was and my reaction..."but dad, I want distortion"
I also think of my friends first tube amp in the 70s, a Sound City or 'sound shitty' as we called it. The head (which imo was horrid) sat on a sound city 4x10 cab that sounded so bad I think he still has it because it sounded so bad it was great
susiwong - Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:57 am
One of the concepts most posters here seem to agree on is that part of it is a matter of taste.
I still believe in a few objective criteria, too.
Ymmv,
susiwong
robojam - Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:17 am
Hink wrote:
btw before building the tubescreamer I would have had to look up germanium diodes before responding which speaks well for why one should build and mod their own pedals.
You might get some good advice over at VS.
Hink - Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:20 am
robojam wrote:
Hink wrote:
btw before building the tubescreamer I would have had to look up germanium diodes before responding which speaks well for why one should build and mod their own pedals.
You might get some good advice over at VS.
yeah I know
Hink - Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:22 am
susiwong wrote:
One of the concepts most posters here seem to agree on is that part of it is a matter of taste.
I still believe in a few objective criteria, too.
Ymmv,
susiwong
I still believe in a few objective criteria, too.
Ymmv,
susiwong
ask not what your guitar tone can do for you but what can yo do with your guitar tone
trimph1 - Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:24 am
AetherCoyl wrote:
hibidy wrote:
Hallelujah! Sing and preach brotha! Nice tone and playin
That is playing!! Heck, they all are from you hibidy...sheesh
I think tone is kind of subjective. Sometimes my paying sucks so bad it ends up sounding like my tone has gone to pot...not that pot..the other one
...other times I feel like I'm on top of the world here, so I can see why one can think that it is the equipment...which it is up to a point...
My only kvetch now is that I now have to get that Orange amp...tiny terror...
BERFAB - Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:46 am
susiwong wrote:
BERFAB wrote:
I have to agree with much of what Hink said, but emphasize that it is very subjective.
What has always confused me though (and I believe I've participated in other thread discussions on this) is the discussion of each guitar's own 'tone.' My personal view is that acoustic instruments all have elements that contribute to their own unique tone (i.e. wood selection, F hole placement and shape, body shape, string characteristics, etc.).
But reading the posts in this thread, it would seem that many agree, at least in part, with my own feeling on electric guitars, which is, with the available amp sim/effect algo technology, as long as it is in tune, you can pretty much create any 'tone' you would like with any guitar.
I agree that various guitars will 'play' differently, owing to a number of elements. And, in turn, 'playability' affects performance. But the resultant dry sound can very easily be manipulated into virtually any possible tone.
Am I wrong?
-B
What has always confused me though (and I believe I've participated in other thread discussions on this) is the discussion of each guitar's own 'tone.' My personal view is that acoustic instruments all have elements that contribute to their own unique tone (i.e. wood selection, F hole placement and shape, body shape, string characteristics, etc.).
But reading the posts in this thread, it would seem that many agree, at least in part, with my own feeling on electric guitars, which is, with the available amp sim/effect algo technology, as long as it is in tune, you can pretty much create any 'tone' you would like with any guitar.
I agree that various guitars will 'play' differently, owing to a number of elements. And, in turn, 'playability' affects performance. But the resultant dry sound can very easily be manipulated into virtually any possible tone.
Am I wrong?
-B
Very much so, sorry, BERFAB.
Take a generic guitar type, say a Strat.
Go to a decent guitar store and try a few S-types, unplugged.
Worlds of difference.
Wood (primarily), scale, frets, hardware, finish, precision of build - they all matter big time.
One thing however : these differences matter less the more distorted you play.
And some are a matter of taste, a maple fretboard is not better than a rosewood board, but it's different.
Once you start combining components to "your chain", things are getting more complex, you can balance out factors, fine tune the overall response ...
All this might not matter to a live audience so much, but a player who is inspired by his tone tends to play better.
My personal guess would be 35% electronics, 65% these other factors, in the area clean to medium crunch
Ymmv,
susiwong
I'm not saying that they don't sound different, either unplugged, OR plugged. What I'm saying is that whatever signal comes out them can then be run through what are now our standard sim packages, and tweaked to sound like anything you want - including the sound of a guitar with better 'tone.'
-B
blueman - Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:03 am
BERFAB wrote:
I'm not saying that they don't sound different, either unplugged, OR plugged. What I'm saying is that whatever signal comes out them can then be run through what are now our standard sim packages, and tweaked to sound like anything you want - including the sound of a guitar with better 'tone.'
-B
-B
It becomes a matter of subtlety and nuance and how much you do (or don't) appreciate these little details. Distort it all to pieces and it doesn't matter anyway. It's all relative...
I think we explore tone mostly for fun; not because we really NEED to get some specific sound happening. Of course, that dynamic changes in a mix but that's for another discussion
Hink - Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:10 am
blueman wrote:
BERFAB wrote:
I'm not saying that they don't sound different, either unplugged, OR plugged. What I'm saying is that whatever signal comes out them can then be run through what are now our standard sim packages, and tweaked to sound like anything you want - including the sound of a guitar with better 'tone.'
-B
-B
It becomes a matter of subtlety and nuance and how much you do (or don't) appreciate these little details. Distort it all to pieces and it doesn't matter anyway. It's all relative...
I think we explore tone mostly for fun; not because we really NEED to get some specific sound happening. Of course, that dynamic changes in a mix but that's for another discussion
I explore tones for inspiration
robojam - Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:13 am
Hink wrote:
I explore tones for inspiration
Me too. Sometimes the most interesting experiments are with tones that are nothing like what is traditionally considered a 'good' tone.
I think sometimes too much emphasis is put on always using a good tone, and sometimes grating or tinny or thin sounds are perfect for something that big fat tube amp sounds are just not right for.
Hink - Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:47 am
robojam wrote:
Hink wrote:
I explore tones for inspiration
Me too. Sometimes the most interesting experiments are with tones that are nothing like what is traditionally considered a 'good' tone.
I think sometimes too much emphasis is put on always using a good tone, and sometimes grating or tinny or thin sounds are perfect for something that big fat tube amp sounds are just not right for.
yeah, that's one of things I really like about sims...you can try a lot of different tones in a snap. Last week I came up with a cool little rhythm (that has no home) in the key of Cm using my Daion rewired, a clean tone from my xt live and a phase shifter in my emu fx. I dont use pahse much but this even brought my daughter out of her room because she liked how it sounded.
In the case of the Daion I changed the pups to duncans and used on/on/on switches so each pup has series/split/parallel. As blueman said, with a lot gain subtle changes get lost but when I'm using cleaner tones the slightest change makes a huge difference. The guitar also has a five way pre and a bcu active tone control so exploring with that guitar is a ball.
Of course pegged the guitar also sounds very nice too
vurt - Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:02 am
i like my sg, and the names "john".
Hink - Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:17 am
vurt wrote:
i like my sg, and the names "john".
thanx vurt, but I already know my name is John
Uncle E - Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:25 am
BERFAB wrote:
I'm not saying that they don't sound different, either unplugged, OR plugged. What I'm saying is that whatever signal comes out them can then be run through what are now our standard sim packages, and tweaked to sound like anything you want - including the sound of a guitar with better 'tone.'
It'd certainly be interesting to use Curve EQ or Assimilator to match the EQ of one guitar to another, I doubt the guitars would sound the same across the full range of the neck but the results would probably still be useful. Anyone want to give this a shot?
btw, maybe if amp sims responded more like real amps, you'd notice a greater difference between guitars.
Hink - Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:31 am
Uncle E wrote:
BERFAB wrote:
I'm not saying that they don't sound different, either unplugged, OR plugged. What I'm saying is that whatever signal comes out them can then be run through what are now our standard sim packages, and tweaked to sound like anything you want - including the sound of a guitar with better 'tone.'
btw, maybe if amp sims responded more like real amps, you'd notice a greater difference between guitars.
have you tried VANDAL yet?
IIRs - Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:34 am
Absolutely there is such a thing as 'bad' guitar sound. As a live engineer I have encountered an astonishing range of them, as I guitarist I probably produced my fair share back in the day...
hibidy wrote:
http://www.box.net/shared/kfnzt4e7aq
http://www.box.net/shared/mmnk3f8m91
http://www.box.net/shared/e0yys0jmpp
Health warning: I only skinned the thread, and I listened to your examples on laptop speakers.
1 and 2 sound ok to me: I can imagine them both fitting into mixes (though I liked 1 better).
3 suffers from a classic guitar player mistake: all the mids have been scooped out. I could tell instantly even on laptop speakers, but I verified it by downloading it and checking with SPAN: huge big hole between about 300Hz and about 3KHz. This type of sound might seem impressive on its own, but when you try to fit it into a mix it just dissapears... until you crank it so loud that it just obliterates everything else.
I have known guitar players to stand in front of dual 4x12 cabs cranked to the max but still complain they can't hear themselves, until I 'fix' their sound and stick it in the wedges for them as well... fixing the sound invariably means a healthy boost or two somewhere in the mid range, plus usually some low and high-pass filters to cut out the rumble and the fizz respectively.
Uncle E - Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:50 am
IIRs wrote:
I have known guitar players to stand in front of dual 4x12 cabs cranked to the max but still complain they can't hear themselves, until I 'fix' their sound and stick it in the wedges for them as well... fixing the sound invariably means a healthy boost or two somewhere in the mid range, plus usually some low and high-pass filters to cut out the rumble and the fizz respectively.
I used to play in a band with a guy who cranked through a Dual Recto half stack. My midrange-heavy little '63 Deluxe blew him away every night.
robojam - Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:11 am
Hink wrote:
have you tried VANDAL yet?
Interesting that you bring Vandal up so often. Is there a demo? I haven't ever tried it, but I guess I should.
Hink - Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:24 am
robojam wrote:
Hink wrote:
have you tried VANDAL yet?
Interesting that you bring Vandal up so often. Is there a demo? I haven't ever tried it, but I guess I should.
I bring it up often because often it fits, the key difference is the feel and how it responds. However you may have noticed that it's sort of had a reverse effect on me, it reminded me why I needed more real amps
As for a demo if you google vandal I'm sure you will find one.
hibidy - Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:00 pm
BERFAB wrote:
I have to agree with much of what Hink said, but emphasize that it is very subjective.
What has always confused me though (and I believe I've participated in other thread discussions on this) is the discussion of each guitar's own 'tone.' My personal view is that acoustic instruments all have elements that contribute to their own unique tone (i.e. wood selection, F hole placement and shape, body shape, string characteristics, etc.).
But reading the posts in this thread, it would seem that many agree, at least in part, with my own feeling on electric guitars, which is, with the available amp sim/effect algo technology, as long as it is in tune, you can pretty much create any 'tone' you would like with any guitar.
I agree that various guitars will 'play' differently, owing to a number of elements. And, in turn, 'playability' affects performance. But the resultant dry sound can very easily be manipulated into virtually any possible tone.
Am I wrong?
-B
What has always confused me though (and I believe I've participated in other thread discussions on this) is the discussion of each guitar's own 'tone.' My personal view is that acoustic instruments all have elements that contribute to their own unique tone (i.e. wood selection, F hole placement and shape, body shape, string characteristics, etc.).
But reading the posts in this thread, it would seem that many agree, at least in part, with my own feeling on electric guitars, which is, with the available amp sim/effect algo technology, as long as it is in tune, you can pretty much create any 'tone' you would like with any guitar.
I agree that various guitars will 'play' differently, owing to a number of elements. And, in turn, 'playability' affects performance. But the resultant dry sound can very easily be manipulated into virtually any possible tone.
Am I wrong?
-B
No, you are not wrong. That doesn't mean it's going to sound "generally" good to others. In our most luxurious current state with sims there is a tendency to want to create "tone" that is just as good as what can be achieved in a very expensive studio with all the classic amps, mics, and VERY experienced engineers. Unrealistic? Maybe but it's STILL what we aim for.
hibidy - Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:02 pm
surferman wrote:
Tone comes from the fingers...
No argument here.
hibidy - Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:14 pm
Before I forget, allow me to mention something I think is a bit odd.
Every heard of Eric Johnson
(I'm a smart ass for sure)
Anyways, the first time I heard "tones" is was blown away. I have the "ACL" concert on dvd, a very old "instruction" vid .....ok to my point. Not too long ago I saw a very recent concert on HD (something to do with grove) and I thought his tone was........no so great. I listen to the newer....stuff......not so great. Something from olden days.......f**king mind blowing
hibidy - Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:16 pm
AetherCoyl wrote:
hibidy wrote:
Hallelujah! Sing and preach brotha! Nice tone and playin
Why, thank you kind sir
hibidy - Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:37 pm
IIRs wrote:
Absolutely there is such a thing as 'bad' guitar sound. As a live engineer I have encountered an astonishing range of them, as I guitarist I probably produced my fair share back in the day...
http://www.box.net/shared/kfnzt4e7aq
http://www.box.net/shared/mmnk3f8m91
http://www.box.net/shared/e0yys0jmpp
Health warning: I only skinned the thread, and I listened to your examples on laptop speakers.
1 and 2 sound ok to me: I can imagine them both fitting into mixes (though I liked 1 better).
3 suffers from a classic guitar player mistake: all the mids have been scooped out. I could tell instantly even on laptop speakers, but I verified it by downloading it and checking with SPAN: huge big hole between about 300Hz and about 3KHz. This type of sound might seem impressive on its own, but when you try to fit it into a mix it just dissapears... until you crank it so loud that it just obliterates everything else.
I have known guitar players to stand in front of dual 4x12 cabs cranked to the max but still complain they can't hear themselves, until I 'fix' their sound and stick it in the wedges for them as well... fixing the sound invariably means a healthy boost or two somewhere in the mid range, plus usually some low and high-pass filters to cut out the rumble and the fizz respectively.
hibidy wrote:
http://www.box.net/shared/kfnzt4e7aq
http://www.box.net/shared/mmnk3f8m91
http://www.box.net/shared/e0yys0jmpp
Health warning: I only skinned the thread, and I listened to your examples on laptop speakers.
1 and 2 sound ok to me: I can imagine them both fitting into mixes (though I liked 1 better).
3 suffers from a classic guitar player mistake: all the mids have been scooped out. I could tell instantly even on laptop speakers, but I verified it by downloading it and checking with SPAN: huge big hole between about 300Hz and about 3KHz. This type of sound might seem impressive on its own, but when you try to fit it into a mix it just dissapears... until you crank it so loud that it just obliterates everything else.
I have known guitar players to stand in front of dual 4x12 cabs cranked to the max but still complain they can't hear themselves, until I 'fix' their sound and stick it in the wedges for them as well... fixing the sound invariably means a healthy boost or two somewhere in the mid range, plus usually some low and high-pass filters to cut out the rumble and the fizz respectively.
I totally understand what you are saying. With the exception of the first clip which I probably charted out before I played
the others INCLUDING the 4th clip were fast and dirty, no H/LP filtering, no real through process....just hit record and go. Sloppy and un refined on purpose.
Your input is valuable as this is indeed mostly a "reality" check for perception purposes.
blueman - Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:18 pm
hibidy wrote:
Not too long ago I saw a very recent concert on HD (something to do with grove) and I thought his tone was........no so great. I listen to the newer....stuff......not so great. Something from olden days.......f**king mind blowing
I think he just got bored with having perfect tone
Seriously though, his tone was sooooo good back then. Where else could he have gone with it? What goes up... blueman - Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:28 pm
This guy gets pretty close to EJ's tone with a great description of how he achieves it. Note the elusive Butler Tube Driver (like Gilmour uses)....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtI5UWAQXLg
Yummy
blueman - Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:31 pm
btw, he is making them (to order) again: http://www.butleraudio.com/tubedriver.php
maaaaaaaan, I am sooo tempted
hibidy - Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:34 pm
blueman wrote:
This guy gets pretty close to EJ's tone with a great description of how he achieves it. Note the elusive Butler Tube Driver (like Gilmour uses)....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtI5UWAQXLg
Yummy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtI5UWAQXLg
Yummy
Not through it yet but
hibidy - Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:41 pm
hibidy wrote:
blueman wrote:
This guy gets pretty close to EJ's tone with a great description of how he achieves it. Note the elusive Butler Tube Driver (like Gilmour uses)....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtI5UWAQXLg
Yummy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtI5UWAQXLg
Yummy
Not through it yet but
The strangest thing is how DIMENSIONALLY different the carbon copy is from the echoplex......and to me the two (older) amps laid waste the the newer one......I would really be nice to hear that recorded in a nice format instead of that "youtube" blah way
susiwong - Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:30 pm
hibidy wrote:
......and to me the two (older) amps laid waste the the newer one......
In this example I think it's more the "straightforward" vs "multi-channel" amp effect, too many compromises necessary with these monsters.
Guitars like a simple signal path.
Ymmv,
susiwong
hibidy - Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:56 pm
susiwong wrote:
hibidy wrote:
......and to me the two (older) amps laid waste the the newer one......
In this example I think it's more the "straightforward" vs "multi-channel" amp effect, too many compromises necessary with these monsters.
Guitars like a simple signal path.
Ymmv,
susiwong
Well, it's just that I can hear a diff even with the terrible sound quality. The "carbon copy" had none of that mojo and the "new" head seemed a bit more sterile. Am I being too picky
It's just an observation.
BTW, I am NOT a "vintage" snob (how can I be liking ibanez, charvel and a mid-2000's strat using nothing but guitar sims
) Frankly, I prefer the new stuff to sound "as good" because there is zero percent chance of me having anything like that. Uncle E - Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:35 pm
hibidy wrote:
The strangest thing is how DIMENSIONALLY different the carbon copy is from the echoplex......and to me the two (older) amps laid waste the the newer one......I would really be nice to hear that recorded in a nice format instead of that "youtube" blah way
The difference might not be so apparent if the Carbon Copy had been put through the same signal chain as the Echoplex. If anything, I felt that the Voodoo Lab overdrive pedal was the main thing that ruined the second signal chain, I've got several pedals that sound much more like the Marshall than that.