KVR :: Effects » Waves MaxxBass: freeware equivalent? [View Original Topic]
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tommy_d - Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:20 am

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Is there such a thing?

(I hope this isn't considered cross-posting. My initial post - in the Production Techniques subforum - was rather general and open-ended; this is a specific question about a specific effect plug).

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osiris - Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:35 am

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http://music.service-1.de/html/free_plugins.html

WOK has something called BassPlusBass Enhancer. Tried it and loved it.

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tommy_d - Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:51 am

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Thanks, I'll check it out

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GaryG - Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:07 am

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Never used MaxxBass but I have had good results using the bass enhancer in Argurus Stardust: http://www.kvraudio.com/db/1413

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TIMT - Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:25 am

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1 eq and 1 saturator/waveshaper/soft clipper distortion thingy

put above effects on a pre-send,set one of the eq bands to bandpass(or a lowpass and a highpass if it doesn't offer a bandpass option) and have it focus on the subs or lows or whatever frequency you're trying to bring out

Then your saturator/distortion thingy majiggy set quite low pull fader downand mix under the dry sound oila a makeshift maxxbass

You could go onestep further and make it more dynamic by applying automation to the fader with the presend effects on or if you use fruity or have another daw capable of this apply a peak controller so the fader is only pulled up when the sound is triggered oila a dynamic makeshift maxxbass

Peace

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tommy_d - Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:33 am

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Thanks! I'm downloading now and I'll check it out later.

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tommy_d - Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:40 am

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Just to clarify:

What I'm really looking for is a free (VST?) plug-in that uses existing LF information to generate additional harmonics above it, and preferably allows you to compress those harmonics as well. (The idea is to make the bass more audible on small speakers by exploiting the psychoacoustic phenomenon sometimes referred to as the "missing fundamental" effect).

Thanks to all who've replied so far Keep the suggestions coming...

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Izak Synthiemental - Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:43 pm

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most knowledgable audio folks agree that Waves MaxxBass/Waves RenBass etcetera are hard to substitute with other plugins since they have a unique approach.

However - saturation might do the trick to a certain degree, for example the free voxengo bass saturation or some of Bootsys/varosound's!

also check: "Nasty LF" from varietyofsound's Legacy plugins, its kind of a lowend eq + saturation, here: http://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/downloads/

You can also try to duplicate your bass track and eq + saturate + compress the duplicated track and then blend it in a pleasant way with the unaltered bass track... This is only one small hint of how you can achieve similiar good sounding bass in your music as with the Waves plugin...there are many more ways

Cheers

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highkoo - Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:09 pm

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I was trying to find out what exactly NastyLF does. There isnt much documentation on it outside of KVR. I havent seen anything specifically mentioned about it doing any kind of mojo on harmonics.
But, bootsie said this, about NastyHF;

I dont know what that means exactly, but that sounds like the kind of thing needed for this. Those magic harmonic freqs need to be picked out and compressed/boosted/whatever...

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kbaccki - Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:15 pm

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Not free or cheap, but definitely good for what you want to do: http://www.voxengo.com/product/lfmaxpunch/

$80 compared to $120 for the waves plug...

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sunny_j - Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:24 pm

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To be honest, i have tried almost all the alternatives that have been suggested over the past couple of years and ALWAYS end up returning to using RenBass. Nothing does what it does.

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highkoo - Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:11 pm

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How is Ren different than Maxx? Same type of algo?
Ive played with Maxx a fair bit, but never Ren...
(LFPunch description sounds a lot like MaxxBass...?)

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tommy_d - Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:21 pm

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Hi Izak Synthiemental, thanks for responding

My question was prompted by something highkoo said in another thread. I posted in the Production Techniques subforum to ask if anyone knew of any specific techniques or tools to help bass sounds "translate" to small speakers, or if anyone could suggest some articles/resources on the subject. highkoo replied that the only thing he knew of for that particular task was MaxxBass.

...And yet it seems essentially pretty simple (MaxxBass, that is; I don't know about RenBass): having read the manual and Paul White's review, it seems it's basically a combination of an exciter, a compressor and a filter. So I'd be surprised if there weren't some kind of freeware plugin that works the same way (however successful or otherwise it may be). The Devil is in the detail, I know, but exciters, compressors and filters are all pretty commonplace tools. My next question - if this one turned up a blank - was going to be "does anyone know of a freeware exciter that will function down to, say, 80Hz?"...

Well, to the extent that saturation that will enrich the harmonic structure of the midrange then...yes

I don't know the Voxengo plug so thanks for the tip; I'll check it out I'm a fan of saturation on bass, and - as I said in the Production Techniques post - I've found that it can help the bass "translate" to small speakers. I'm a fan of Bootsy's plugs, too...though for bass I prefer BootEQmkII to NastyLF.

Saturation can help, definitely. And yes, it'll change the harmonic structure of the sound. But I don't think what NastyLF (for instance) does in terms of harmonics is the same as what MaxxBass does. Or am I wrong...?

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tommy_d - Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:31 pm

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Yes I own it, and I rate it very highly It offers compression, saturation, filtering, sub-harmonic synthesis and "mono-isation"...it's very powerful.

But - again - MaxxBass works slightly differently, I think.

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bduffy - Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:40 pm

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I find nothing out there has as smooth a sound as Ren/MaxxBass, despite claims. I would advise someone looking for this kind of thing to keep their eyes out for deals at Waves Universe, et al., coz it really is the best, IMHO.

AFAIK, you're right: RBass offers an improved algorithm from MaxxBass, and higher headroom to prevent clipping.

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LeVzi - Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:44 pm

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I know you want free but check this out

http://www.g-sonique.com/xbass4000l.html

Gets a huge thumbs up from me, as I use it loads on basses for DnB.

It is pretty cheap too , 15 Euro's.

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bduffy - Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:53 pm

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You know what? That G-Sonique one is rather nice. Worth a try.

Jesus. RenBass is only $46.55 at Waves Universe! I expected MaxxBass to be cheaper...huhn.

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tommy_d - Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:03 pm

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That looks interesting, and 15 euros is almost free I'm downloading the demo now; I've got a couple of other things to check out later as well.


...which sounds kinda vague to me (maybe they're being deliberately cagey about how it works?) but suggests it might do similar things to the Waves plug.

Cheers, LeVzi - thanks for the recommendation

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mandolarian - Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:15 pm

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psychoacoustic techniques: it either means the brain's ability to pretend there's sub-harmonics lurking beneath audible upper harmonics or that a virtual Freddy Krueger will leap out of your speakers with a deep terrifying thump. You probably want to demo first and let us know.

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tommy_d - Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:29 pm

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If that's true - if nothing else does what MaxxBass/RenBass do - then it's actually very interesting. For a plugin that's nearly 14 years old and essentially fairly simple to be unique is pretty remarkable, I think...

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tommy_d - Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:32 pm

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Actually, I'm not as keen as I was a minute ago

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kbaccki - Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:25 pm

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I thought the saturator stage in LF Max Punch could be used for what you're looking to do:

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tommy_d - Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:35 pm

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(...)

I'm impressed by the G-Sonique plug! I'm not very keen on the interface: I find it difficult to make subtle adjustments because the controls turn quite quickly, and I'd rather frequency was marked in Hertz. But it sounds great! It's capable of massive looming sounds, huge brooding tower blocks of bass-ness. I'm sure it's great for DnB(!) My ears are pretty tired right now so I should probably have another listen tomorrow, but I think this is going on the shopping list. 15 euros gets you a couple of beers round here, so it's not exactly expensive...

The WOK plug is interesting but it's more for kick, I think; I'm sure it's very effective on that, too.

Stardust is a real find. I need to have another listen tomorrow, try it on some different material...

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tommy_d - Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:43 pm

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TBH I've not had much success using it that way It can do great things for bass, definitely...but I've had better results using "Punch" to firm up a flimsy low end, or using the sub-harmonic generator to add extra weight.

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LeVzi - Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:11 pm

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What I like about Xbass, especially when using it for heavy DnB lines is that it can add a fair bit of weight without sending the bass mental and dominating everything, which is something I struggled with a bit.

Like you said, 15 Euros is a snip tbh.

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ATS - Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:29 pm

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Actually you can get the Waves plugin for around $50. So that one is considerably more expensive.

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osiris - Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:51 am

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WOK's plugin adds the so-called psychoacoustic tones. I put it on a bass track. I don't think there's a preset for bass, but if you tweak the knobs a little can add very nice oomph. From the website:
BassPlus is an enhancer for low frequencies. Intended for drums, but works on other signals too of course. It's not a fixed EQ, but has a detector for lower frequencies and enhances them and/or adds a new subtone to it.

That's what the Waves does, except it has no detector/sensitivity control, which is I think if you want to add it to the whole mix.

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DMuzik - Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:12 am

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Plus whatever an iLok cost, no? Or doesn't Renaissance Bass need one?

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Tp3 - Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:36 am

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Yes, but for those of us that don't own iLok, it's double the price...

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tetsuneko - Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:12 am

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don't forget to try the mda subbass plugin.. it's free, and while not duplicating the functionality of Maxxbass, it's still a handy little thing to have in the "bass enhancement" toolbox.

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tommy_d - Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:52 am

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Hmmmmmm.

Well maybe I'm missing something or being stupid - it does happen - but I didn't have much success with it.

I experimented with different ADDBASS and SENS settings, but the ADDBASS knob either did very little or caused unpleasant distortion And the note added by ADDTONE is controlled by the FREQU knob, rather than by the pitch content of the input* (AFAICT, anyway). Which means unless your bass line is monotonal - or at least very simple - the additional tones generated will be discordant at least some of the time. Which is why I think it's probably better for kick.

*unlike, for instance, the SUB sub-harmonic synthesizer of Voxengo LFMaxPunch

@ATS: Fair point...but since I already own the Voxengo plug the question of whether MaxxBass is cheaper or not is moot. For me, anyway

@DMuzik & Tp3: I hear what you're saying...but, erm, let's not go there! iLok, copy protection (etc.) seems to be a touchy subject round here, and I don't want a productive discussion to turn into a flame-fest

@tetsuneko: Yes, I like the mda plug (I like lots of the mda plugs, in fact; they may be long in the tooth but they still get plenty of use round here). There's another good one by loser (Michael Gruhn) called - I think - 50Hz Kicker. But, again, these plugs produce different effects from MaxxBass.

@kbaccki: I will persevere with the SAT module. LFMaxPunch is a complicated plug-in with lots of possibilities and I haven't fully got to grips with it yet. It's perfectly possible that with further experimentation I could get it to do what I want.

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tommy_d - Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:24 am

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So to recap:

- I've found a couple of JS plugs (bassmanager, hugebooty) that can do really nice things for bass (thank you, LiteOn & Mr Stillwell) but not in the same way as MaxxBass.

- I've found a freeware VST multi-effect (Stardust) that can do interesting things to bass, and plenty more besides (thank you, GaryG).

- I've found a payware plug (XBass) that does more-or-less what MaxxBass does, I think (thank you, LeVzi). I'm not very keen on the interface but "like the budgie..." (15euros is almost freeware).

- I've decided to re-visit a payware plug I already own (LFMaxPunch); maybe I just need to delve deeper? (thank you, kbaccki).

...What I haven't found is the thing I was looking for: a direct freeware substitute for MaxxBass. If there really isn't one then I'm genuinely quite surprised. 'Cos as I say, MaxxBass is not new and it seems - in essence, at least - pretty simple

So maybe:

- My understanding of how MaxxBass works is flawed: it's not just an exciter, a compressor and some filtering, it's actually a lot more complicated.

Or:

- The Devil really is in the detail: the principle may be quite simple, but tweaking the algorithm is a major undertaking.

Or:

- The Freeware Hero Devs so beloved of KVRists have a kind of collective "blind spot": they probably could knock up a freeware MaxxBass clone ("BassMaxx"? "FreeBass"?); it just hasn't occured to them (yet).

I dunno Anyway, thanks to everyone who contributed. I'm off to experiment with LFMaxPunch...

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bduffy - Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:12 am

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FWIW, I've been in many threads like this over the years, and the conclusion is always the same: Maxx/RBass are in a league of their own.

I think one way they really beat the competition is by not having too many vague parameters, but there is a smoothness to the sound that is very hard to match (probably what you speak of: "the devil in the details".

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Tp3 - Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:58 am

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What, are you kiddin' me ?

I care less about the iLok thingy... I was marely pointing that buying an iLok AND RBass will DOUBLE the plug's price
(for a single, first timer, waves plug).


I am getting the exact same felling. all over the world, for YEARS, people have been pondering the concept. I
think there were a LOT of ideas flying around as to how to imitate the process. but to no avail.

I guess it isn't for nothing that they patented the concept...

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sunny_j - Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:06 pm

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Christian Budde also had a go at it. He made a plug to emulate R/MBass. It is called "Bass Extender". Never got it to do what i wanted but if anybody wants to try, go ahead
http://www.savioursofsoul.de/Christian/vst-plugins/effect-plugins/

Also, be careful when changing parameters. His softwares produce really loud clicks or pops when changing parameters !

Cheers!

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bduffy - Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:40 pm

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Actually, as I recall, the Crysonic NewB was pretty good at this, came the closest to RBass, I thought. The usual caveats with Crysonic apply.

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Breeze - Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:43 pm

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As corollary to this thread... Waves LoAir is on sale this month for $19. It can do mono, stereo and 5.0 or 5.1 surround. Cheap if you're already iLoked...

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sinkmusic - Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:53 pm

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Too bad it requires Ilok.
Is there no possibility to have C/R or a serial ? Is Ilok the only way ?

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Compyfox - Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:53 pm

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O-kay... I skimmed through the thread a bit, and I also come to the same conclusion: you want the MaxxBass technology, get MaxxBass.

First and foremost, Renaisance Bass is not an "improved" technology of MaxxBass, it's actually a trimmed down version. Renaissance Bass is made for compressing Bass content (read: bass guitars, guitars in general, vocals), not for adding content that is simply not there.


There are a couple of possibilities, some mentioned already like LFPunch from Voxengo and maybe even SEND from Jeroen Breebaart - but they are still not what you know from MaxxBass. They utilize a similar technique, but through the years that I tested such plugins myself, I always came back to MaxxBass - but ultimately never bought it.


Then to the WOK creation. From my understanding, it's basically adding a sine wave or "low octave" to the original. Not really what MaxxBass is doing (splitting the frequency, adding harmonics to the split signal, mix back). Same with C.Budde's plugin btw.

"Bass Extender" is very experimental, also adds harmonics, but doesn't really come close to what you know and heard of MaxxBass and Renaisance Bass. Christian only created this plugin because he wanted to see what he could do with a similar approach - actually it was due to a discussion I had with him in whether or not it is possible to reverse-engineer the now discontinued Elogoxa Baxxpander. Still usable for something, but not as simple.


MDA's lowend tool is actually adding a sine signal to a percussion. In very basic form it's a sidechained gate that opens if a signal applies (trigger), with a sinewave generator put pre-gate. It's an old trick to add more lowend to kicks or snares.

I can't say much about the rest of the tools - I can only emphasize that if you want MaxxBass's technology/sound, get MaxxBass.


Either that, or create a usable tool yourself. The introduction to that was on page 1 I think. Only that the signal is not bandpassed IIRC, but lowpassed only (up until 225Hz). Can't tell you anything about the waveshaper though. But with so many tools on the market, you can go nuts. Or... grab C.Budde's Chebyshev Waveshaper or Christortion and create your own harmonic fingerprint. The possibilities are endless - you just need to wrap your head around it.

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bduffy - Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:23 pm

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Hey Compy, I was wondering when we'd hear from you! I was awaiting an endorsement of Baxxpander...



But I'm not sure why you're claiming what you are about RBass. Waves themselves claim RBass is a "significant improvement in the psychoacoustic bass performance", and as far as I know, they both work the same way; by adding harmonics to the signal to increase the perception of the fundamental bass. RBass is simpler, but it does have a couple of improvements, can be used on a whole mix, and is not a compressor. Just wanted to point that out.

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Compyfox - Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:06 pm

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It is simpler indeed. You lack the crossover and mix. But it's also offering an internal compressor IIRC. This clears why the prices are that drastic.

Of course "significant improvement" is a marketing buzzword. RenBass is newer than MaxxBass (though both are still almost a decade old!). It's long ago that i used Renbass actually.

I still say that MaxxBass offers more for your buck.


I pretty much dropped Baxxpander and X-Citer (developer is deceased) years ago. I actually do not use any exciter anymore either, not even CLAS (Refined Audiometrix), which is surpising if I may say so. Might be due to my changed workflow and/or different tools I have at my disposal now (a lot of them can add harmonic content if needed). Maybe even new tricks I learned over the years.

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bduffy - Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:14 pm

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If you don't need an exciter, that's a good thing!

As for RBass, I own it, and I got the information from the manual. It's quite clear it's an update of MaxxBass designed for simplicity. Nowhere is compression mentioned, so I wonder how you can claim it's only for compressing bass and guitar? I just don't get where that comes from. But anyway, I do agree: MaxxBass is a fine plug-in with more control. To my ears, though, RBass sounds better, even with less controls.

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Compyfox - Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:46 pm

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I could misinterpret it for RenComp. Like I said, it's been a while since I used these things on Bass/Guitar.

Also.. it's not that much slimmed down either. A quick look at the GUI's shows that RenBass misses the dynamics mode (don't see a reason for it), you can not control the decay of the harmonics but you have a different range for adding the enhanced signal.


Whatever... my 2cents anyway. Though MaxxBass is still on my wishlist. It does come in handy for certain recordings from yesteryear to add more subtle. Though I do know my ways around it.

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sunny_j - Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:11 pm

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trimmed version or not, i find renBass better than Maxxbass, YMMV tho. the difference between the two also varies, on certain frequencies it is large, whereas on other, it is negligible..

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LeVzi - Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:29 pm

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Man that iLok issue, it's not the fact I have to use an iLok, its the additional cost of the iLok that annoys me. The plug-ins are reduced in price but throw on £30 more for the dongle from the outset. . .

Maybe Waves should think about free iLok dongles with your 1st purchase for a xmas sale But then arent' waves still stuck in the dark ages and not using 64bit yet ?

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bduffy - Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:31 pm

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Yeah, I'm not wild about iLoks, but what can you do when plugins you really love use them? I had to wait 2.5 weeks to use RC-Tube because I needed the iLok.

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tommy_d - Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:26 am

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Um...I could've put that better, I think I didn't want things to get derailed, that's all (sorry).

And yes, you're absolutely right: if you need an iLok to run the plug then you should factor that in to the price.

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tommy_d - Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:29 am

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He did?! Why didn't you say?

Right. D/l'ing now, will try tonight.

Thanks, sunny_j

Noted - thanks for the warning.

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tommy_d - Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:39 am

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...Oh, hang on:

Hmmmmmm

Well, I'll give it a try it anyway. I'm a fan of many of Budde's plugs (and his plugin analyser) so it's got to be worth checking out.

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tommy_d - Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:59 am

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...which seems to be the consensus.

Well, fair enough

I'm genuinely surprised, as I say, that there isn't a viable freeware alternative. There are so many good freeware eqs, dynamics processors, 'verbs, delays etc., even freeware versions of more esoteric or specialised processors (real-time pitch correction etc.) that I just assumed - naively, it would seem - that there'd be a free MaxxBass. Clearly I was wrong.

(Maybe that will change. I'm sure Waves are good at what they do but - in the words of Silvanus P. Thompson - "What one fool can do, another can" so perhaps someone will create one, one day)

In the meantime:

Yep. Further experimentation required. Should be fun

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sunny_j - Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:31 am

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Oh and almost forgot about BBE H82 from NomadFactory. Also, give it a go, it can also do some nice stuff on the low end !!

Cheers!

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tommy_d - Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:48 am

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That does look interesting. Not free, though

A side note: one of my associates has a cheap "me too" version of the original BBE hardware, a Behringer SU9920. He always seems vaguely embarrassed about it but it does get used...

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bduffy - Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:38 am

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I'm not surprised, not everything is matched in freeware (especially if you're on a Mac!). The "big" companies do get some things right, with their legions of white-coated analog modeling scientists working in citadels inside mountains. I'd say there are a few things Waves make that remain unrivaled, but that of course goes the other way too. But I do think no one's cracked the bass harmonic-thing like Waves has (and, again, cross-platform? Forget about it).

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Alfa210 - Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:42 am

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Also, RetroBandLite can do some nice stuff on the low end.

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bduffy - Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:06 am

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Actually, that's a great point about BBE! I haven't tried those in awhile (except I just got the SonicMax for iphone!), but I recall their bass enhancement to sound more "bumped" and "nosey" than RBass. I'm gonna grab the demo and try them out again.

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Izak Synthiemental - Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:37 am

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Funny . this Behringer thing is cheaper then the software - 95 Euros here in Germany!

Without the Waves RBass/Maxxbass still my second choice is to do it D-I-Y- Style: parallel compression, saturation etcetera and blend the original with the processed

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bduffy - Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:44 am

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There's a reason why Behringer is cheaper...

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kbaccki - Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:48 am

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And with something like voxengo soniformer you could get some really fine-grained compression across the spectrum...

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tommy_d - Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:28 am

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So it would seem!A nice image Reminded me of something Manfred Mann said about Abbey Road:

"EMI Studios was [...] like working in a hospital. There would be guys in white coats buzzing around every morning and the place was pristine clean. It wasn't the funky, creative, cool and groovy atmosphere that people assume it was. EMI was looked after better than any studio in the world has ever been looked after."

(quoted in Good Vibrations: A History of Record Production by Mark Cunningham)

A post-script: I've just read Mike Senior's Mix Rescue piece in the December issue of SOS. He describes using Voxengo LFMaxPunch for precisely what I'm talking about There's even a nice big screenshot (page 97, top RHS) Which is pretty timely - cheers, Mr Senior!

Another post-script: On the freeware side, that Christortion plug is very cool and has lots of potential for this kind of thing. I may investigate this further...

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mandolarian - Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:03 am

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Thread wouldn't be complete without a tumble into the subterranean depths of Lowender from Refuse: http://www.kvraudio.com/db/2547
No psycho-acoustic-babble, just mo' beefy bottom. Synthetic bottom, sure, but your kidneys and neighbors won't know the difference. Great when used on wimpy guitars and banjos, in a deeply troubling way.

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tommy_d - Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:14 am

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A bass player writes: Oi! Get off moi laaaaaahnd!

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Fritze - Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:34 am

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Their page is dead.

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Fritze - Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:35 am

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kbaccki - Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:01 am

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Would be interested in hearing some A/B between MB and LFP... but alas, you don't have MB! Hope you can get acceptable results out of your existing tools, and use that money to buy your mom a nice gift for the holidays. Either that or jump on one of the many plugin sales going on...

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mandolarian - Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:15 pm

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Not dead, just resting. Try again. There's an article on the News page that's barely a month old. Old news maybe, but definitely not deadly, 'cept for the PT10 part.

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mandolarian - Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:57 pm

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But, on the bright side, peeps will be impressed that the bass player is finally playing in time.

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valhallasound - Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:36 pm

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The workings of MaxxBass are discussed in a US patent granted to Waves (5,930,373). So the techniques being used have been publicly disclosed, but are also covered by patent protection until the patent runs out, in 2017 or something like that.



Well, if someone created an exact replica of the Waves stuff, they would open themselves up to legal claims, due to the patent coverage. A technique that differed from the Wave technique would work, but it probably wouldn't sound exactly like MaxxBass.

There are a lot of audio patents that went nowhere, as the amount of profit to be gained from the patent would be less than the costs of taking things to court. My guess is that MaxxBass is NOT one of those patents, and is a patent that Waves would vigorously defend. Waves may make some money from the MaxxBass plugin, but the real money on this type of technology is in the consumer electronic space. Spending <$1.00 per unit to license an algorithm that synthesizes bass ends up being much cheaper than spending several dollars on better speakers for your laptop/TV/whatever, as speakers require higher quantities of physical materials to sound better.

Sean Costello

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Chrisma - Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:30 pm

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That being said...What happens to the sound if you process the mix with Maxsbass and then its ran through a MaxxBass powered system? Will the mix still translate correctly or will the low-end harmonics be over hyped? I assume there is some limiting/compression or something going that would prevent this. Anyone?

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Giusmex - Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:06 am

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just a consideration.

I have waves maxxbass.


i not always us it but i ask:


if you increase the harmonic spectrum of the bass frequencies with maxxbass, dont you also increase the "muddy" frequencies in the spectrum ( 250-500 Hz or so ) ? is there a way to "level" them off after using maxxbass or similars?

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tommy_d - Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:49 am

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Ouch!

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Mariusz_ - Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:57 pm

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EQ?

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RunBeerRun - Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:37 pm

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Dang cornhuskers union, I went to download the maxxbass demo but it requires an Ilok key.

The old JB Smash Pro is a good multiband exciter for low precise frequencies, could easily be found at the Marketplace for like 10 bucks. But I don't know what this bass harmonics thing sounds like.

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tommy_d - Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:38 pm

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...and there it is: "METHOD AND SYSTEM FOR ENHANCING QUALITY OF SOUND SIGNAL, Meir Shashoua et al." (thank you, Googlepatents).So in fact it should be relatively straightforward to develop a MaxxBass clone - freeware or otherwise - because the patent application tells you everything you need to know.So anyone who did develop a MaxxBass clone would be infringing Waves' intellectual property rights and could be sued.

Suppose it was just for personal use, though? Suppose they made no attempt to release or distribute the plugin, and only used it for non-commercial purposes? Presumably that would be legal(?) (Forgive me if this is a stupid question; I know nothing of patent law and very little of the law in general. Also I'm not proposing to do what I'm describing, and I'm not advocating that anyone else do so. Just thinking aloud...)

Good point! Hmmmmm...

(...)

Very interesting! Thank you

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aciddose - Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:57 pm

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no, personal use is not technically legal. good luck to waves in trying to catch you though.

if you couldn't create a clone the patent wouldn't be valid. might be a good test

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tommy_d - Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:25 am

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Good question. Maybe this can help answer it: MaxxPlayer(TM) Technical Description.

Section 4, page 5 is concerned with MaxxBass. I'm interested that Waves felt the need to diss a rival technology (SRS Lab's TruBass). Seems rather mean-spirited to me but anyway...

(...)

Reading this document - reading about iVolume™, MaxxBass®,
MaxxTreble™, and MaxxStereo - part of me thinks "Hey, wow! The trickle-down effect! Professional tools for domestic use! Empowering the consumer!"

...but another part of me thinks: "Oh great! Another way for people to screw up a carefully-crafted mix and make a mockery of the mastering process" It's bad enough trying to compensate for all those "BassBoost"/"MegaBass" buttons...

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tommy_d - Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:36 am

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It isn't? Ah. Interesting!I s'pose if one never told anyone else about it, never played anything processed through it to anyone else (...used it in a darkened room 50 miles from any other human being etc.) then it's kind of a moot point - the plugin equivalent of "if a tree falls in a forest and there's no-one around..." Well, absolutely! I mean, we'd be doing Waves a favour, right?

(Note to mods/Waves lawyers: Joke! Just kidding! Nothing to see here, move along now...)

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sonicpowa - Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:39 pm

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The effect of MaxxBass should be easy to reproduce. You'll need a plugin with a lot of 2nd and 3rd order harmonics and LP filter mixed with the original sound. Harmonics across the frequency range are filtered out at the right frequency and slope.

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aciddose - Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:17 pm

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it's entirely possible there is prior-art for this type of thing. although it might come down to the very specific implementation in "maxxbass". i did a series of bass expander plugins back in 2000 using several methods that might be related. in some cases i don't actually remember how they worked exactly.

i think the best thing you could do is just try to accomplish your goals without worrying about what someone else has done. if a lawyer shows up demanding you cease distribution, do as they ask.

the facts are 99% of software commercial or not is violating a patent of some kind. 99% is probably way too small a number actually.

you're better off taking a chance than not producing anything at all. patents work great in that regard hm?

these sorts of patents are unenforceable anyway. since it's not legal to reverse engineer your binaries, where do they get the evidence that you used the methods they're claiming they hold a patent on?

it all comes down to mafia-like tactics. i think you'll find in most cases as has already been said in this thread, the patents are for two purposes. 1) large scale licensing 2) defense.

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tommy_d - Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:31 pm

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You'd think so, wouldn't you? I thought so, too But the consensus is that I was wrong - that it's not easy at all.Well, I refer you to this document; it's quite interesting reading...

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tommy_d - Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:13 pm

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MaxxBass®, MaxxTreble™, MaxxStereo™...

Whither MaxxTalent, I wonder?

[dream sequence]
"MaxxTalent Function

MaxxTalent™ is a patented psycho-cultural-acoustic process that enhances the perceived compositional & performance abilities of recorded musicians.

How MaxxTalent Works

Our unique algorithm analyses the melodic, harmonic & rhythmic sophistication of the composition; the cultural relevance of the lyrical content (where present); and the technical expertise of the vocalist(s)/instrumentalist(s). It then enhances each of these factors so as to enrich the user experience. Unlike traditional enhancement technologies (e.g. Antares Auto-Tune), MaxxPlayer does not actually alter recorded material in any way. It just cons you into thinking that everyone's a bit better than they actually are..."
[/dream sequence]

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bduffy - Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:20 pm

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Theoretically, it should be easy enough to rig up something like that schematic in the MaxxBass pdf. But I'd like to see Joe-Schmoe-home-DAW-user get it right!

For the record, I did some A/B-ing with latest BBE HR8, and I would hazard to say it's just as good as RBass, plus you get your higher frequency enhancer too. But again, far from free...

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highkoo - Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:28 pm

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JB discontinued this:
http://www.kvraudio.com/db/send-spectrum-enhancing-non-linear-device-by-toneboosters

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aciddose - Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:05 pm

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since it's just a relatively simple filter/env follower/gain stage configuration it should be easy to build using existing plugins.

for example i've done this thousands of times: parallel compressor and dry signal, highpass filter dry signal, lowpass filter compressor, mix result.

that's essentially the same thing as the compressor introduces the correct harmonics, but it also levels out the signal within a certain range. (output remains dry until bass level is between -20 and +20, where it's then compressed to 0 constantly and harmonics are stronger at higher levels.)

this is exactly how the plugins i did around 99/2000 worked, i think... except the logic for the compression was a bit strange. i'm actually amazed that it ever worked. i also did a delay line that could be read forwards and backwards at the same time which is a fairly well known effect these days.

funny thing is you can be almost certain these were all patented between 1990-2000. some of them have already run out.

of course the techniques are obvious and they've been done for decades before the patents were ever filed in modular synthesizers and just in general use of effects world-wide by professionals and amatures alike. not that the patent office ever cared about that, though.

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sonicpowa - Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:20 am

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Hmm.. interesting indeed.. too complex..

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sonicpowa - Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:36 am

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But what is the purpose of MaxxBass plugin anyway?
Well I know the consept is useful for consumer electronics, but for musicians? I don't get it because we can mix and match the bass frequences.

It enhances the bass but when you filter out the fundamental frequency it's not that great. But if it could recreate that low bass feeling in full effect it would be awesome.
So as long as the low bass is there we can create that enhanced part with other plugins and it's about the same effect.

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bduffy - Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:07 am

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I used it yesterday to get a track's low-tuned bass to stand out a bit more on an iPhone app. I knew the mix was destined for a tiny speaker, and I was able to get the results I needed quickly and effectively. Personally, I can't imagine dicking around with a bunch of sidechains, saturation plugins and filters when I could use a professionally designed product like this, but I'm sure one could get similar effects, if capable and willing.

And I wouldn't expect MaxxBass harmonics to sound that hot on their own, they're intended for speakers that can't produce the fundamental. MaxxBass usually sounds muddy on my nearfields.

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sonicpowa - Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:23 am

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^^^ Yea but something like WOK BassPlus is similar and easy to use, it's free and without ilok.
And if one creates something more complex with send effects then it's needed to set up one time only (using template).

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tommy_d - Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:11 am

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"similar": maybe "the same": definitely not

(At least not IMO; see my post above).Yes, yes and yes; all good points! But if it doesn't produce the same results then, well, so what? (No offence - I'm not trying to be rude; just sayin'...)Quite so.

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tommy_d - Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:18 am

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...But I do have friends, some of whom have Waves plugs, one whom - it seems - has MB...Oh, certainly! Acceptable to me, anyway... She put you up to this, right?

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Breeze - Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:44 am

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Exactly. The only time I used MaxxBass on a commercial release was for a game for the Sony PSP. End even there I had to be careful balancing the result coming out of the PSP's tiny speakers vs listening on decent quality headphones. It worked out very well.

I don't see any reason to use MaxxBass for material destined for full-range systems. Usually the only reason a hardware manufacturer would integrate MaxxBass technology into a speaker system is because the low end driver is incapable of producing healthy frequencies under 70-80 Hz. So it would be used to palliate a hardware limitation. Outside of that, its up to the user to get a better sound system.

My use of low-end synth or extension plugins these days is for special effects work. They can really help good but anemic front line effects find their "oomph"

BTW, if you're doing your own mastering and unless you have excellent full-range speakers and a properly tuned room, here's a piece of hard-learned advice. Always check your mix with a spectrum analyzer in line with your DAW output and insert a HQ steep high-pass filter right before it set to it's lowest possible frequency. Then sweep upwards until you start hearing its effect in your speakers. Then back off until you just don't hear a difference and master that. Check the spectrum analyzer to observe what effects your filter is having and note what you can't hear. Low end content you can't hear can destroy your mix; this way you have better chance of producing a mix that's balanced on any system. Out-of-control bass peaks is the biggest danger in using these low Fq extender plugins.


There is "prior art" in the form of research that was done on the perception of missing fundamentals from upper harmonics by many people from the 1800's on (check this link under Psychological Background for Modeling Pitch and Harmony). There's more info and links on the Missing Fundamental WIKI page. Waves basically packaged the theory into a working system and patented it. If someone developed an alternate way of doing the same thing, it could bypass Waves' patent and be eligible for a patent as well. After all, you can't patent a natural phenomena.

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sonicpowa - Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:20 am

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I think it's close enough for me not to buy MB (and I don't buy anything with ilok).


Try this: Sens=0, Addbass=100, Addtone=0, Frequ=0

Leave Addtone/Frequ at 0 all times. Now turn up Sens to the level you want. There it is, instant MaxxBass!

EDIT: ah sorry that's not working as an insert effect, I was using it as send fx. Maybe it's only Addbass you want to turn up as an insert.

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bduffy - Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:32 am

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Honestly, I don't mean to be adversarial, but I just tried out WOK AddBass and find little to compare between these two plug-ins.

The WOK plugin is a nice little enhancer for sure, but not only did it drop the level of the input source (actually sounds like it might be changing the phase a bit), it clipped the main bus very easily, whereas MaxxBass prevents overs, even when its clip light is on. Not to mention all the extra control you get with MaxxBass. Then I tried RBass, and it reminded me why I love it so...

But that WOK is a good freeware option! Probably the best free bet I've heard. You could insert a limiter after and get some good results.

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loopdon - Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:06 pm

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After all this talk i feel very inclined to run very basic sounds (sines etc). into the demo of Maxbass and do phase inversions etc. I can't believe it is close to rocket-science. Most things aren't. If i am wrong, i will openly admit it.
I think trying toemulate the entire package/effect AT ONCE is bound to comeout to be a failure. I will try split the effects into different categories and in the end try to fit it all together. Now, if only i was better at maths

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bduffy - Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:09 pm

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I wouldn't say it's so much a case of "rocket-science" as much as simply getting it right.

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loopdon - Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:13 pm

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Bduffy, i didn't mean to be offensive and i am sure it could be pulled of in a collective effort. Think of it this way; we talk about stuff here on a regular basis that must have been "future technology" years ago. We all have something to contribute, if only we try. I think it's more about understanding than blatantly copying.

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bduffy - Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:16 pm

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Oh hey, I'm not offended! I guess my post sounds surly when it wasn't meant to be. I'm just saying: the MaxxBass technology seems relatively simple according to its schematics, and just sounds good. I'm not sure what you mean about "understanding" and "copying", though.

EDIT: I see you mean others copying Waves. Never mind.

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valhallasound - Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:56 pm

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This is probably why it is a technology worth patenting.

There have been a lot of published papers about psychoacoustic bass enhancement over the last several decades. It is a simple enough idea: use a filter to focus on the bass frequencies, generate harmonics of these frequencies that will be in the audible range of the target system, mix back in with original signal. In the 1960's, this was accomplished by using tube guitar amps for the bass amplifier, so the bass guitar generated frequencies that could be heard on AM radios (Carol Kaye used a Fender Super Reverb).

Of course, the devil is in the details. I'm sure that there are ways of getting psychoacoustic bass boost that wouldn't step on Waves' patent, and there are probably ways of getting better results. The patent is getting on in years, and there are always ways of inventing better mousetraps. But I would guess that it will be hard to get the EXACT sound of Waves' technique without using Waves' patented technique. And since Waves makes a lot of money off this algorithm in the non-plugin space, they will probably defend their patent vigorously.

So, if someone really wants that exact sound, buying the Waves plugin is probably the cheapest way to get this sound.

Sean Costello

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bduffy - Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:06 pm

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That's what I would counsel, but hey...

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loopdon - Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:21 pm

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I am quite sure Sean could pull it off. We all know what you are capable off, man. I don't mean to encourage you by any means but just stating waht i believe to be the truth. I am just very very interested in prettymuch anything audio and love to get down to the nitty-gritty, that's all. Sure that might border on the unhealthy but coming here alone does as well
I shall now keep my big mouth shut and see if i can find out anything worthwile.

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bduffy - Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:22 pm

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I think you're in pretty good company. Continue to nitty-gritty, please.

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