KVR :: Everything Else (Music related) » Using plugin presets [View Original Topic]
There are 56 posts in this topic.

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Functional - Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:18 pm

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What's people stand upon this?

I've currently bumped into the issue that every time I try to make something "unique" sounding, it's either going to sound like a mess or not so unique.

Sure, things don't always have to be unique. But, sometimes you just want that unique sound in there as well.

I haven't done much preset stalking yet, but I tried out yesterday the presets of Zeta 2. And I have to say, some of the leads are really appealing. Looking at the ways they were created, though, makes me want to die.


I know that Muse, for example, at least has used presets. But generally, what's people stance on music if they can distinct a certain preset out of a track? And yeah, adding 'own touch' is a great way to go by, but the leads I was looking at, they were just beyond perfect for what I was looking for. Couldn't really add anything to them apart from casual FX for fitting into the freq spectre.

Though, I've only started producing (if you can call it that) about half a year ago. And to be honest, I didn't expect to get even this far.

But anyhows, is it safe to use presets to some extent? Not that I'm publishing any of my works, but this is sort of a future related question

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Oh and by the way, I have made a couple of sounds which sound great and unique, but it was really hard to stumble upon them. And usually they all share the same characteristic; high frequencies.

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mgpqa1 - Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:25 pm

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If it sounds good, I'm using it. Simple as that.

Init-wielding synth elitists be damned.

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debra1rlo - Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:29 pm

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I use synth presets on my synths and effect presets on my effects. And I'd have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling kids.

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Functional - Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:31 pm

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Oh yeah, that's another thing. If it sounds good.

I remember back awhile ago, friend asked me to show some Massive stock presets. They sounded like... well, I don't think anyone could be serious about using them.

Though friend recognized a couple of them (he's really deep into dance music and has a keen ear)

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pandashake - Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:36 pm

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1+

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Functional - Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:37 pm

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Haha, hey, I have nothing against it personally. Anyones free to do anything they want.

It's just that I find it so hard for myself to justify my own usage of them. I'm sort of a brickwall when it comes to DIY things. Cut my own hair (though I don't have any currently, but back when I tried to look cool, I had!), build my own computer (yeah, ain't that a feat!) and fixed my PS1 back when I was like 10 years old. Oh, I even fixed my processor which had couple of pins cut off... Then again, that would have never happened if it wasn't for my DIY attitude.

But I'm not judging anyone who doesn't have my attitude... Sometimes I get the feeling that it's not doing any good to myself either. And dear god, I hope that nothing in my house will break down that has high current going. I'll be first one to attempt to fix it and then that's going to be probably my last attempt to fix anything at all.

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ZenPunkHippy - Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:57 pm

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There is nothing wrong with using presets, everyone is at it from bedroom producers to pro's. Same goes for samples. Check out these video tutorials. Primarily about psy trance production using Ableton Live, but there are some tips for creating unique drum and percussion sounds you might find useful:

http://forum.isratrance.com/psilocybian-s-tutorials/

Using stock samples and presets is not ideal, but you can make the sound your own with enough skill and patience.

Peace,
Andy.

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Functional - Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:02 pm

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Thanks for those. Adding spice with percussions is always great way.

And well, psy-trance ain't my thing, but progressive trance is certainly

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ariston - Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:10 pm

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I think musical individuality/originality is much more important than tonal... if you're not a musician, however, you're going to have to rely on tonal originality a lot more if you want to create something that's different from the crowd. Personally, I think that making your own sounds is an integral part of electronic music - which is why I got into it in the first place. If you're into mainstream music, that point is obviously irrelevant.

If I think something is really, er, debatable about a piece of music, it's rarely because it is using preset x in synth y.

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Functional - Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:28 pm

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Not sure about that mainstream thing. Sure, there are genres that are along the mainstream, but if that just happens to be your thing, would that make mainstream your thing?

Personally, music is just more of a hobby for me (for now). Later on, if I get serious, then things go a little different for sure.

But yes, in my opinion, it is important for you to have an unique identity if you're going to produce music. If you don't, well, your music just loses it's meaning, I guess.

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ariston - Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:51 am

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Well, to clarify. What I meant by "mainstream" was: if you're making mainstream music, you will probably want to use the sounds used in mainstream music (i.e. soopersaws and the like). A lot of preset designers deliver the sounds we've all grown to know and loathe (er, love) from chart radio. Ergo: if you're content to make music in the mainstream, don't bother designing your own sounds. Just load up those Guetta risers and Deceased Rodent basses. Hell, just stick some loops together and you're there. Anything beyond that, you're going to have to work at it and learn. I think that's a lot more rewarding, but YMMV.


Just about the only presets I use in my music are the ones in Alchemy, and some breadnbuttah sounds I can't be bothered to dial in when I'm composing/recording.

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highkoo - Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:27 pm

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Well... Dont get me started.
I wield inits but I really have a hard time feeling elite.
Im not good, I am just stubborn.
I will start with a preset if I like it, but dammit, its going to get changed. For the worse? Sobeit!

In short,
The reason I stay away from presets is because I will never forget the first time after I started making music that I heard a preset I recognized in a song by my favorite producer.
Fukking heart broken.

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Bronto Scorpio - Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:56 pm

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I would never ever use a preset! NEVER!
But my main passion IS sound design, so it would make 0 sense to use presets for me since all the fun would be gone. I rarely finish a track since that's not the fun part for me. I like to explore new sounds
I love to make synth audio demos though. I always think of them as one big sound.

But there is nothing wrong with presets! I wouldn't share so many presets if I wouldn't like to hear what people make with them.

The sound design part certainly isn't the fun part for everyone though. Most people "just" want to make music and that's exactly what presets are good for! They don't want to think about the sound, they just want to find a good one and make some music with it. Maybe they even get inspired by a particular preset (which is always a great honor).
As a sound designer it is my goal to give people these sounds, so that they don't have to think about parts of their music they don't want to

I got a lot of mails, PMs etc. about some of the presets I made for the Diva factory library. I can't imagine a better thing to happen to be honest. I always hope people like what I do and try to set my self a very high standard (which is why some of the banks I promised months ago still aren't ready ).

Cheers
Dennis

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manducator - Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:02 pm

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I never use presets but I analyze them to learn on how to create my own sounds.

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thecontrolcentre - Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:08 pm

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I presets!


I also love rolling my own.

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JoeCat - Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:15 pm

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So...do you use your OWN presets? Is that like, auto-cannibalism?

I'm the same way - and that's also why I never finish a track. Also why I just got Synplant - so I'd STOP doing sound design for a bit!

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Tricky-Loops - Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:23 pm

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I do it both ways...

Sometimes I take a preset as starting point and alter it, and sometimes I program from the scratch.

Your audience doesn't know all kind of synthesizer to say: "Oh, that's Zebra, and that's Dune, and there's Synthmaster..."

Either it sounds good or not... But the other musicians of course may know from what synthesizer the sound is if it's a simple preset. That's why I don't like to use pure presets.

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cron - Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:42 pm

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The only question should be "is this the sound I want to use for this purpose". Perhaps 1% of the people listening will know its a preset. If they give a shit, its their problem not yours.

If anything, it's people using their own presets repeatedly across multiple tracks that sticks out to me, particularly in the dance music world.

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justin3am - Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:02 pm

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Presets are whats included with an instrument/effect/whatever. When you make them yourself, they are not pre-set. I usually refer to them as patches.

A lot of the instruments and effects I use don't have presets, so I have to start from scratch every time. However, I've used presets from Zebra, FabFilter's Timeless, Reaktor, Valhalla Room... all sorts and lots of other instruments and effects. If it does what I need it to, I don't feel like it's cheating or lazy to use presets.

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trimph1 - Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:16 pm

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I can use both pre-sets and init...then again, being a miserable old curmudgeon that had to write up my own patchbooks for the Arp2600 I have ..is it any wonder???

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4lb Kitty - Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:30 pm

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You don't really program a guitar or bass or drums. You tweak settings on your amp and effects, but essentially it's all very similar.

Such as it is with presets for me. I do want to learn how to program my synths form Init, but I don't really worry about that too much. I just find presets that inspire me...and play. I don't care if I came up with the patch myself or not, as long as it sounds good.

There are so many thousands upon thousands of presets available for the various synths nowadays, and sooooooo many of them sound very similar to one another, it doesn't bother me at all if someone can point out that I used such-and-such preset, not that many people outside of KVR would know, anyway.

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Functional - Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:34 am

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I have the same problem. Stubborness and I feel that if I use presets, even if they would do good for me, I'll feel like shit over that.

And about mainstream music, I get it now. Though, supersaws and those saw plucks et cetera are easy to create, to be honest. Then again, they all seem to sound the same, difference probably comes from fx and synth specifics.

So cookiecutter sounds probably are better off with creating your own base for them and use that over and over again with your tweaks?

I just earlier thought that you'd say mainstream music as people percieve it usually. Like Nine Inch Nails or Radiohead. Pretty mainstream (or was), but if I'd found out that they used presets... I'd be crying in my room for days, because back couple of years ago, I really loved them and how unique they were

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ariston - Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:31 am

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I'd NEVER call Radiohead or NIN mainstream. Mainstream to me is not defined by success. It's defined by the degree of adherence to a widespread sound aesthetic.

I also think that if you're using presets, then the result is very much determined by the context. A sound by itself is never "good", "bad", "cliche" or "original".

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JoeCat - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:15 am

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It was a joke (and I guess not a very good one!)
- Meaning if Dennis makes a preset bank for an instrument (like he did for the Diva factory library), does he not use them?

Happily, I know what patches are

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farlukar - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:37 am

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iirc most of Faithless' "God is a DJ" is a Quasimidi Sirius preset pattern.

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Gamma-UT - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:51 am

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Oh noes.

I will NEVER listen to this again.



Frankly, if you're worrying about using presets, you're not spending long enough thinking about or making music.

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Tricky-Loops - Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:17 am

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I only listen to this if they'd give me a certificate that they have programmed all sounds from the scratch... I only buy CD's if there's a label with the mark "This CD is not made of presets."

Joke apart, it's the everlasting debate:

using presets = bad musician
programming from init = good musician

But I think, if the song sounds good, it is good. Independent from how it has been made.

There are so much sounds which are made without presets, but if they sound as the toilet flush, that's not musical. Even if they were made with hours of hours of work...

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ariston - Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:25 am

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Hey, you just gave me an idea. I'll go record a flushing toilet and see what I can do with it granular-wise!

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hebb - Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:27 am

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Always make my own. Most presets I hear don't fit in my music anyways.

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Tricky-Loops - Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:32 am

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Gratulation! Put some distortion on it and you'll get a tsunami of sound...

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highkoo - Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:10 am

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I stand by my post above, but this is a fair point. In retrospect, its something that is probably worth really thinking about when starting out.
There is a divide between making good sound and making good music, imo.
It a little like the difference between being "a good artist" and "making good art". I can tweak synths for hours and end up with not even the beginning of a track, and be happy.
Like, I would rather make one bad track a year than ten that are great and sound like someone else, but I can see how that is crazy.

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farlukar - Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:10 am

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I didn't mean a preset sound but a preset pattern, ie. sounds & notes & rhythms & bells & whistles...

Anyway, I only listen to bands who build their own synths and wind their own guitar strings. For my own music I use presets or the randomize button.

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ariston - Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:14 am

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Think I'm gonna add some of the good old "human trumpet" sounds from the Tonehammer library.

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nashua - Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:57 am

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I really wanna try that now actually...then start pissing in it after its halfway flushed for a super build up!!!
But I really hate just sitting there and programming patches and stuff and then saving them for a session later. It's much worse when I'm making a song and then I start tweaking a patch and then I look at the clock and realize i've been fiddling for an hour or two and forgot to finish the song I was writing.

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padillac - Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:46 pm

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Shouldn't that be:

using presets = bad sound designer
programming from init = good sound designer

or

using presets = someone who can't be arsed to design a sound
programming from init = someone who can be arsed to design a sound

I see concerts all the time where the keyboardist loads up a rhodes preset, then proceeds to tear up the place with his musicianship.

Creating patches has nothing to do with being a good musician…although a good musician can potentially make quite playable patches.

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padillac - Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:48 pm

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You might find it helpful to break up sound design sessions from song-writing sessions. I like to "assemble a band" of core instruments before I start laying stuff down. That way when I do lay down some tracks I can move quickly without stopping to program sounds. Also it makes sense to practice designing lots of sounds so that you can come up with something useful quickly, as sometimes it's more helpful to design a sound in context.

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darsho - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:43 am

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nobody gives a f**k about using presets or not except synthesizer-users in forums.

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highkoo - Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:01 am

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FTFY

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osiris - Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:46 am

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I'm a preset whoooreeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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osiris - Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:49 am

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But I have to say if you want to learn sound design, presets are essential. Once you know what does what and why, you can make them yourself.

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Bronto Scorpio - Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:56 am

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Robert Henke (Monolake) just put it in way better words than I ever could in this interview:

"I have a strong aversion against preset 'content', and the first thing I do when I get a new synthesizer is to get rid of the factory presets. I want to explore the machines by myself. Only at a later stage do I flip through the presets, to see if I overlooked something essential. Then, I go back to only using my own presets. I can afford that style of working since no one is sitting behind me and telling me that he wants that hip sound from artist X on his commercial. For me, creating sounds is a huge part of what I enjoy when working with electronics: being able to define my own timbres."

*exactly* how I feel about presets

Again: It's completely OK when someone uses presets, but sound design is 99.9989869% of the fun for me so it would be complete nonsense *for me* to use presets

Cheers
Dennis

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highkoo - Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:23 am

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Wow, good quote.
*Exactly*, +1

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Tricky-Loops - Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:43 am

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Of course, you can be a good musician without programming patches. Especially if you're good in playing some acoustic instruments.

So maybe you could substitute the word "musician" with "producer"...as from a producer I'd expect at least some average knowledge about sound design. But if you use presets as a sound designer, then I think you've got the wrong job...

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Tricky-Loops - Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:52 am

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They're very essential for learning sound design, at least for me as a musician with much interest in sound design. What I find also very useful is the "randomize" function on some synthesizers, especially on those from HG Fortune. You click at it and then you find a absolutely new sound, and you can tweak them further.

But not to forget my favorite quote (it's from the Dance Music Manual by Rick Snoman):

"As always, experimentation is the real key."

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leggie - Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:17 pm

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I stopped deluding myself I can make decent patches years ago so a preset lover here, there are some seriously good soundbanks about now

With all the easy user modulations that can be done now on a lot of synths only the devoted few could identify it as a preset but they should be making music so serves them right

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mcnoone - Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:25 am

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Well of course it's different for those of us who spend most of our time making sounds over making music.
I do like to spend time listening to other peoples sound design work though.
It helps to do so, to learn and for comparison, and new ideas which can emerge from doing that. I buy as many banks as I can afford too, and hope it helps to support those that make sounds, besides the other reasons above.

Nowadays there are more synths like Zebra, and Alchemy which allow the user to change the tone enough using XY vector type knobs, which can help users more quickly get something original, and something that sits in the better.
Korg Wavestation does pretty good with that as well.
Hopefully more synths follow that path in the future as well.
I like moving the vector knobs around to quickly see if I can hear something better than the original sound. Sometimes it happens too.

Sound design just like everything else, doesn't take talent imo.
It simply takes effort, time, energy, dedication, attention to detail, etc... just like everything else.
If you consider that talent, then so be it, but I don't believe in some kinda voodoo magic talent thing...it's just hard work really.

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osiris - Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:07 am

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THere's a lot of synths I can't get my head around, like Massive and Blade. I hate manuals because they are either too vague, or so dense they make my eyes cross. Some like Z3ta and DUNE, Predator and Albino, no problem. Can make a patch from scratch. But then, I pull up Blade.....
Presets are good because when you are doing a song, maybe you have a certain sound in mind and you can either find one like what you're imagining, or one close enough that you can tweak to sound like what you want. I think it saves on the rythym of workflow.

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phazedown - Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:30 pm

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There is no topic that concerns me most ... for about two years now (I'm 22)
So forgive me when I turn off topic after the first lines, I think it has a similiar background. Skip the small text if you like.

Generally I think presets are ok - just like one shot samples and vocals. They help to improve your creativity so you can focus on arranging tracks. But there's the risk people just forget about creativity and passion and want to climb up the business ladder. I end up using a drumsynth and modify patches at least. Still doesn't feel 100% hand made but it satisfies me.

If I had the choice I'd go back in the late 80's to 90's, get some turntables and a mixer for djing and make music on analog gear.
That's 2500€ + XXX€ vinyls+ XXXX€ synths/drummachines etc

Nowadays you can get a really good sound out of softsynths, mix beatgridded and cued tracks and - if you were a bad guy - all based on illegal software and music.
That's 0-300€ laptop + 200€ plastic controller + 0€ music + 0-2000€ software

So the borders, investing a lot of more money, fall. You just need "some time" left. And this is something I really worry about.

That kind of music I really like just gets hyped up and it is more and more played outside capital cities. Sometimes I even hear wannabe mainfloor djs play some great tunes (SOMETIMES NOT EVEN LIKING THEM) whose owner wouldn't be pleased to know about that. And just to name Chris Lattner for example (Deep House dj/producer), he recently quit because the love for music in club scene is gone for him, read here: https://www.facebook.com/ChrisLattnerFanpage/posts/357315487615993).

"many reasons...but first of all i dont like whats going on in our house/techno scene anymore. its all about hype...marketing...names and egos.
in my opinion all values house/techno stood for are gone.
it wanted to be anti-pop-business...but now its even worse than that...you can be a star without any knowledge
in times where you can buy features at beatport and other shops not the best music is featured anymore but the biggest wallet.
most audiences have no idea why they go to house/techno parties. the club is the modern disco where the only goals are...drinking...taking drugs....and chasing girls...no one cares about the music anymore
dont get me wrong...i am not frustrated. its normal that a music scene turns into that when it gets popular. but i am too old to follow...and i dont want it. so my decision was to stop it to keep at least a bit love for house music left..."

That were definitely the saddest lines I read the past years.
Can't it just go in another direction again?

Yeah and that is why presets have advantages and disadvantages
I draw the whole topic on the selfish people, trying to be better than his/her neighbor in any case and playing alpha leader. When presets are made to push someone's ego they should have never been made, but for music with substance/character/soul/love they are very great tools.

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kritikon - Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:20 am

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Another way of looking at it is this: Any accoustic instrument is already preset by definition. A drumkit is preset with kick, snares, hats. It hasn't stopped drummers making rhythms and accoustic players making music. In fact, the music you play with your synths is likely to be way more important than the patches you use. A 303 is a 303, a hoover's a hoover and straight sine wave patches haven't stopped many a trance hit in the past. Pianos have made incredible music with the same boring preset for centuries.

Of course electronic music has more emphasis on the sounds, but ultimately you can sell decent tunes on a xylophone, but you'll struggle to sell shite tunes on a $10,000 mega modular with unique patches. There are hits with presets all over them out there and always have been. The M1 piano was on almost every tune for a couple of years in the early 90s. The Alpha Juno hoovers are still basically the same years later. I've lost count the number of times I've heard the Korg M1 Universe patch or JX8p strings on records.

I don't personally use presets, but that's because sounds creation is more my thing than making tracks. I don't care if my own music is shite but has good patches. However, if I were still releasing anything, I'd rather have presets and good music than vice versa.

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filter303 - Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:32 am

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Excellent post!

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GruvSyco - Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:36 am

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I approve of this. I'm trying to learn more and more about the synths that I have and it seems one of the best ways is seeing how others do it. I understand basic Osc > Filter > Amp and using LFO to modulate those but easily get lost/confused when it comes to more complex mod routings, weird FM tricks, MSEGs... shit like that. But I f'ing love twisting knobs.

I'm curious at what point is a patch no longer a preset. Do I have to tweak every parameter? On something like ACE if I turn every knob but left all the cables in place, can I call that mine?

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1-2-Many - Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:42 am

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I use presets everytime-everywhere. I eat presets breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Can't get enough presets! I like to rub them all over my body and feel the caress of their tingley fingers. When I clean my ears presets come out. I married my girl cause she reminded me of one of my favorite preset - ExprsvTouch Lead. Even my jizz is full of presets (about 300 million of em). I love presets so much I named my kids Power Solo, SyncPad, and PWM Lead. So you preset snobs and haters can kiss my preset!!!

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JimmiG - Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:00 pm

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IMO, there are different types of presets. My problem is with presets that are essentially a complete production triggered by a single key on your keyboard, and especially with those who use such sounds with barely any tweaking. A lot of presets for modern synths are like that. They contain a complete effects chain and sometimes even a pre-programmed melody or chord progression if the synth has a built-in sequencer. There are a couple of issues with that:

1. Some would consider it "cheating". You aren't creating original sounds, you're just using someone else's work.
2. If you combine several such "mini-productions" they will make your mix sound messy - you might have three or four different reverbs, ping-pong delays with various timing values, overdrive units adding different overtones etc.
3. This also makes your song very CPU-hungry. It's more efficient to have a single reverb and send everything to that
4. It's going to be easy for people who use the same plug-ins and synths to recognize the presets

Then there are simple leads, basses etc. If you find something you like and it fits in your mix without tweaking, go ahead and use it Add your own effects and tweaks to make it yours.

The thing with the latter category is that it's not entirely easy to sound unique, especially with basic subtractive synths. It's likely that in the decades that subtractive synthesis has existed, someone has already done something similar to what you're trying to do. There's only so much you can do with 3 or 4 waveforms, a filter or two and a bunch of envelope generators and LFO's.... It's also pretty easy to come up with basic analog synth presets. With some practice, it might be quicker to just dial something in rather than audition hundred of presets to find one that sounds "just right".

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DWB2 - Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:47 am

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I actually don't see that as much of a problem in itself, provided you're honest about it and you aren't pretending to yourself or anyone else that the tune is a unique expression of your artistic genius. If you just want something for you MC to chat over or to mix it up a bit in your DJ sets then wanging some drums under a preset seems fairly reasonable provided you come up with something good out of it (and FWIW neither of those tunes sounded much like anything else that was going on in their scene at the time, and the first one pretty much turned the genre on its head...)

In general, I think different people express themselves through different aspects of music making - so some people write lyrics and some don't, some people are interested in sound design and some aren't, some people are interested in writing new tunes and some aren't, some people are interested in playing around with rhythms and some aren't, and, in the case of someone playing a classical harpsichord piece, some people can play the same notes in the same order at the same volume on the same instrument with the only unique part of their performance being very subtle changes of timing and have it considered a masterpiece. So I'd say use presets if you're happy that it's helping you to express yourself and make the music you're interested in rather than restricting you and holding you back.



Yeah, that's definitely true, though.

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Nielzie - Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:54 am

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Amen!

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osiris - Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:23 am

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well said.

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There are 56 posts in this topic.